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Annable Courts
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:25 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Cheese
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:47 pm 
 

Bear with me, I'm just producing a bit of conversation here nothing more
but
I thought about it the other day, why have the U.S. been such a powerful metal nation, like, on more of a socioeconomic level than anything else. I was wondering whether there was some sort of link between very liberal societies on both cultural and economic levels, and metal music. Like, a society that is truly capitalistic, that's not just free-market and economic incentive, there's a direct impact on the psychology and culture of the population, they'll think more in terms of individuality/ism and thus liberal societies I'd say produce the most creative individuals, so it's like a full-spectrum philosophy that impacts the citizen on all levels not just business opportunity.

And capitalism itself is a product of protestant anglo/germanic cultures basically, which also today produce the most metal bands (US, Scandinavia, Germany, Holland...).

Asian or Muslim cultures are two totally different examples of highly collectivist societies, and yet it's no wonder both don't produce world class quantities or quality of metal.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8694
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:49 pm 
 

The United States are abysmal on the level of metalheads/metal bands per capita. It has so many metal bands because there's over 300 million people living there.

Also, Asian totalitarian state, 274 bands in a single city: https://www.metal-archives.com/lists/SG
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GOOFAM
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:06 am
Posts: 66
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:11 pm 
 

A fair bit of conflation between "liberal" and "capitalist" in the OP. I mean, here in the US, self-identified liberals have more positive views of socialism than capitalism, according to recent polls. And of course there's a lot of the same sort of thing in Scandinavia, from what I understand (Unsure how Germany/southern Europe/Japan fit into this).

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8694
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:16 pm 
 

Also has a lot to do with a society being in touch with Western culture, since metal very clearly comes from Western culture.
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Jose Cruz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:13 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:46 pm 
 

Developed countries tend to have more metal bands. That is because people need some money to buy guitars and drums and stuff, also they need to have the free time required to focus on music instead of simple survival.

Developed countries tend to be liberal democratic societies. There is the exception of Singapore's authoritarian government although in measures of economic freedom it ranks very highly, which is what determines prosperity more than freedom of the press in criticizing the government. You don't need to be a democracy to be a developed country but on average non-democracies tend to choose worse policies and become underdeveloped.

Among developed countries, there are more metal bands in the Nordic countries, followed by Germany. Then density of metal bands per capita decreases to the US and UK and decreases further in France, Spain, and Japan.

One important thing to be aware of is that the metal-archives database has very incomplete information regarding metal bands from countries where most of the population does not speak English since this is an English language site. Most people in the Nordic countries and lots of people in Germany speak English. In Asian countries like Japan only like 2-3% of the population speaks English so they probably have a lot of metal bands that nobody outside of Japanese speaking metal-head community knows about. So I would guess they have substantially more bands than shown in the site's database.

Adjusting for the population which understands English the US is actually below the average in terms of metal: they have about 20% of metal bands in the site but they have about 35% of the English speaking population of the world. While Finland has 8 times the number of metal bands per capita than the US, and also higher quality bands on average (according to my tastes at least).

It is true that to have metal you need to be in touch with western culture, so western countries tend to have more metal bands per capita. Although, some might say that Finland is not as "western" as the UK supposedly is.

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Gravetemplar
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 315
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:51 pm 
 

Yeah, USA metal scene is really weak if you bear in mind it has a ton of people and the stuff I like the best is done by very few people (Vrasubatlat, Psychic Violence, Noxial, Mystiskaos, etc).

Also, western music is going to be played a lot more in western countries. This thread is the equivalent of saying "there are a lot more K-pop bands in Japan".


Last edited by Gravetemplar on Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8694
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:52 pm 
 

Jose Cruz wrote:
Developed countries tend to have more metal bands. That is because people need some money to buy guitars and drums and stuff, also they need to have the free time required to focus on music instead of simple survival.

I dunno, you might know the 80s bands from your own country and many of them were favela-level. They could get a cheap instrument but nothing else. It's possible to play metal with an investment of $20 per band member (shit instruments) if someone can offer them a shit recording opportunity (shit fake "studio" with nothing more than a 4-track), even Sepultura complained about it, but bands like Exterminator you can really hear they had nothing but the cheapest of the cheap available. But in that specific case mid 80s Brazil was when poverty and rage still had a big connection because of the dictatorship's repression against the poor so it made sense the poor played extreme music even with next to no resources. Even if their records weren't exactly Angra and more like rhythmic fart sounds like the aforementioned Exterminator.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 1003
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:00 pm 
 

GOOFAM wrote:
A fair bit of conflation between "liberal" and "capitalist" in the OP. I mean, here in the US, self-identified liberals have more positive views of socialism than capitalism, according to recent polls. And of course there's a lot of the same sort of thing in Scandinavia, from what I understand (Unsure how Germany/southern Europe/Japan fit into this).


That classical definition of liberal and the modern take are pretty much at odds.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8694
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:05 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
GOOFAM wrote:
A fair bit of conflation between "liberal" and "capitalist" in the OP. I mean, here in the US, self-identified liberals have more positive views of socialism than capitalism, according to recent polls. And of course there's a lot of the same sort of thing in Scandinavia, from what I understand (Unsure how Germany/southern Europe/Japan fit into this).


That classical definition of liberal and the modern take are pretty much at odds.

In Germany "liberal" means what "libertarian" means in the USA.
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Jose Cruz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:13 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:26 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Jose Cruz wrote:
Developed countries tend to have more metal bands. That is because people need some money to buy guitars and drums and stuff, also they need to have the free time required to focus on music instead of simple survival.

I dunno, you might know the 80s bands from your own country and many of them were favela-level. They could get a cheap instrument but nothing else. It's possible to play metal with an investment of $20 per band member (shit instruments) if someone can offer them a shit recording opportunity (shit fake "studio" with nothing more than a 4-track), even Sepultura complained about it, but bands like Exterminator you can really hear they had nothing but the cheapest of the cheap available. But in that specific case mid 80s Brazil was when poverty and rage still had a big connection because of the dictatorship's repression against the poor so it made sense the poor played extreme music even with next to no resources. Even if their records weren't exactly Angra and more like rhythmic fart sounds like the aforementioned Exterminator.


Usually, people from the favelas do not play any kind of rock-like music or even any sophisticated musical instruments at all. Pretty much all metal bands from Brazil come from the richest 30% of the population, which is about the size of the UK's population (by the way, Brazil has 20% more metal bands then the UK according to the website). The poorer 70% of the population do not even have access to basic culture like LPs, CDs, internet, or even the capacity to read and write properly before they can develop an interest in metal in the first place, much less to write songs. The absolutely cheapest guitars in Brazil cost as much as 1 month of income of a typical poor family (that is, a typical family in the bottom 50% of the income distribution), a good guitar costs the same as 3-4 months of income from a poor family, a fancy guitar costs the same as 1 year of income. Of course, a poor family in Brazil is never going to spend a significant fraction of their yearly income to buy a toy for their kids.

In even poorer countries like India, 95% of the population cannot even dream of ever buying something like an electric guitar for their kids. Of course, they are not going to have many metal bands there.

I don't know what comic book history you read on Brazil's dictatorship but it was not a dictatorship that was "oppressing the poor" (whatever that means, if you mean the police going into the favelas shooting randomly and killing people, well they do that all time today as well: in the first half of 2019 the police killed 800 people in the city of Rio de Janeiro only, its a feature of the poor quality of our law enforcement and the fact they have to deal with para-military drug lords).

Our military dictatorship was just that instead of presidents being elected by popular vote they were elected by a council of military advisors for 5-year mandates, there was some censorship of the media but not enough to block all criticism of the government, and there only two political parties (the government and opposition parties). It was not as authoritarian as Putin's government for example. The dictatorship ended in 1985, but had a weakening grip on the political system for a decade before (by the early 1980s there were already a lot of different political parties in Brazil, and state and municipal level there never was a dictatorship), while Brazilian metal's golden age was in the decade that followed 1985, when there was zero political repression.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:39 pm 
 

Funny, reading comic book history. I'm married to a Brazilian, know her city, family, parents, brothers and friends. Seems you are the one who wants to make up comic book history because none of what you say corresponds with reality, it's all fiction. The dictatorship was indeed a dictatorship and yes, the dictatorship's solution to unemployment was to murder the unemployed. That's actually common knowledge among all generations. The police actions now are reprehensible but they don't compare in any way.

And no, there was no Brazilian metal golden age in the 1990s, that's when all the good bands sold out or quit and all the new bands that came up were power metal and other such abominations that were basically pop music with guitars and zero balls. The only actual major metal thing in Brazil (as in not power metal, which is not metal, it's Backstreet Boys with guitars for people who love Backstreet Boys and things softer than Backstreet Boys) was Mystifier from Salvador Bahia and again those were people from the bottom of society.

I dunno where you live but go to Sao Paulo you can see what you say is bull. There is no strict ghetto segregation like in the United States, you can cross the street from a middle class neighbourhood to a favela, there are favelas in the backyards of rich people. People are obviously connected to the culture of each other and instruments are cheap to be had, it's obvious that's where all the good stuff came from.
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Osore
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
Posts: 171
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:56 pm 
 

This is not surprising, just bare in mind that although statistically significant and positive, this correlation is still weak, because the correlation coefficient is not even close to +1 (the value of r can be as follows: -1 ≤ r ≤ 1).
Quote:
In terms of political orientation, liberalism was correlated positively with preference for the Dark/Alternative* (r = 0.28, p< 0.001) and Aesthetic/Musical (r = 0.15, p = 0.002) components, but negatively with the Communal/Popular (r = -0.13, p = 0.007) and Thrilling/Action (r = -0.25, p< 0.001) components.

Heavy metal: Cerebral/Nonfiction (0.04), Communal/Popular (-0.09), Dark/Alternative* (0.45), Aesthetic/Musical (0.00), Thrilling/Action (0.23).

Preferences for different types of media were assessed using the Entertainment Preference Measure (EPM; Rentfrow et al., 2011). Participants were asked to rate their preference for various genres, from a comprehensive list, on a 7-point Likert scale ranging from “Dislike strongly” to “Like strongly.” The EPM contains a total of 108 genres, spanning four media domains: book/magazine (34 genres, e.g., adventure, philosophy), film (18 genres, e.g., suspense, foreign), television (34 genres, e.g., educational, reality television), and music (22 genres, e.g., alternative, classical).

Participant political orientation was assessed using a battery of items measuring liberalism, political party preference, and overall political attitude, which would allow for the evaluation of different aspects contributing to an individual’s political orientation. Liberalism was assessed using the 10-item IPIP Liberalism scale (Goldberg, 1999), which requires participants to rate their agreement with various political value statements (such as “Believe laws should be strictly enforced”) on a 5-point Likert scale. Participants were also asked to indicate their preference for the two primary American political parties (Democratic and Republican) on a 5-point Likert scale. Finally, participants rated their overall political orientation on a one-item 7-point Likert scale ranging from “Very conservative” to “Very liberal.”

Conclusion
The present study showed that preference for media that is more edgy, dark, and aesthetic, as well as dislike for communal and popular media, mediated the relationship between Openness to Experience and liberalism. In contrast, preference for communal and active media, in addition to dislike towards dark and aesthetic media genres, mediated the association between Conscientiousness and conservatism. Thus, these results provide one possible mechanism by which personality may shape political orientation and also demonstrate the important impacts that media consumption has on people’s lives.
Xu X, Peterson JB. Differences in media preference mediate the link between personality and political orientation. Political Psychology. 2017 Feb;38(1):55-72.

Kemp A. Liberalism, individualism and heavy metal. Institute of Public Affairs Review: A Quarterly Review of Politics and Public Affairs, The. 2006 Apr;58(1):39. https://ipa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/archive/81_1_KEMP.pdf

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