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CD Identification, Matrix & Bootleg Help Thread
https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=92986
Page 4 of 63

Author:  Jiikky [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

As I have grown more aware of the possible fakes and scams of the CD world, I just examined my Xentrix, Sacred Reich and Nuclear Assault CDs which I bought from Sonic Age Records. When I look at the downside (the blank side) of my Sacred Reich CDs (except for Ignorance) and Xentrix CDs, the catalogue number can't be founded on the inner ring, just the album name! (for example, "Shattered Existence") Also a Nuclear Assault album (Survive) I bought from there for 16€ or so: When I flip it I just find some weirdass code "CMCUCD 049" in the center ring, which I can't find anywhere on www.discogs.com, while having a legit code "IRSD-42195" in the front... I bought the others dirt cheap from Sonic Age Records almost a year ago. I also examined Death Angel's The Ultra-Violence I bought from amazon.co.uk for 30 pounds. It has no text on the blank side, except a code "R 73253 (V)" on the frontside, but everywhere else I can see "7 72548-2" which is another cat number, and the CD indicates that Restless Records has published it, which matches the "7 72548-2" but for the "R 73253 (V)" I can't even find a match in www.discogs.com. Does this mean all these are fakes as well?

Author:  dreadmeat [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

i feel your pain, i really do.

Author:  Jiikky [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

dreadmeat wrote:
i feel your pain, i really do.


Thanks man. I'm not in trouble yet though, haven't spent too much money on fake bootlegs yet. I would guess I have... 12-13 of them now in my collection. This discovery has really shocked me though, how can I trust anything or anyone anymore? How can I be sure that a rare CD is real and not a bootleg? Are there any methods? It's so easy nowadays to produce exact, identical copies, how can I tell?

Author:  dreadmeat [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

matrix info, mastering and mould sid codes are pretty difficult to copy
also if they have just been burned they won't be silver they'll have blue green colouration, or at least it'll just look 'not silver' and won't be uniform.

this guy sold me some fake cds, it was real amateur stuff though: http://gglobb.wordpress.com/fake-cds/

Author:  VHSDVD123 [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

nice nails, OP

Author:  DARKZSOU7 [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

I can definitely relate to this as well since I remember buying Coroners Grin CD from some seller in Greece. Until I found out it was a bootleg when another person said that same about his Grin cd which matched my copy (which I ended up bidding for 48 including shipping.)

Author:  PurpleDoom [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Quote:
As I have grown more aware of the possible fakes and scams of the CD world, I just examined my Xentrix, Sacred Reich and Nuclear Assault CDs which I bought from Sonic Age Records. When I look at the downside (the blank side) of my Sacred Reich CDs (except for Ignorance) and Xentrix CDs, the catalogue number can't be founded on the inner ring, just the album name! (for example, "Shattered Existence") Also a Nuclear Assault album (Survive) I bought from there for 16€ or so: When I flip it I just find some weirdass code "CMCUCD 049" in the center ring, which I can't find anywhere on http://www.discogs.com, while having a legit code "IRSD-42195" in the front... I bought the others dirt cheap from Sonic Age Records almost a year ago. I also examined Death Angel's The Ultra-Violence I bought from amazon.co.uk for 30 pounds. It has no text on the blank side, except a code "R 73253 (V)" on the frontside, but everywhere else I can see "7 72548-2" which is another cat number, and the CD indicates that Restless Records has published it, which matches the "7 72548-2" but for the "R 73253 (V)" I can't even find a match in http://www.discogs.com. Does this mean all these are fakes as well?


Not necessarily. Many releases - even common ones - are absent from Discogs, and the ones that are there are frequently incomplete, so it shouldn't be taken as an absolute indicator that your CD is fake (you can try checking the Unoffical section for the band's Discogs page to see if anything matches yours). As dreadmeat mentioned, matrix info (the matrix code is the "weirdass code" on the inner ring of the disc) is often a good way to distinguish between a bootlegged CD and a real one, though it's also frequently a missing element for Discogs pages. Usually a good search of the internet will turn up enough information to verify whether or not it's real, but at this point it sounds like you've got reason enough to doubt the legitimacy of the CDs you have; hope you can get them returned without a hitch.

Author:  dreadmeat [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

PurpleDoom wrote:
Many releases - even common ones - are absent from Discogs, and the ones that are there are frequently incomplete, so it shouldn't be taken as an absolute indicator that your CD is fake (you can try checking the Unoffical section for the band's Discogs page to see if anything matches yours). As dreadmeat mentioned, matrix info (the matrix code is the "weirdass code" on the inner ring of the disc) is often a good way to distinguish between a bootlegged CD and a real one, though it's also frequently a missing element for Discogs pages.
this is the only reason i'd contribute shit like this to the database: http://www.discogs.com/Vengeance-Rising-Once-Dead/release/3753829
so it can be found and avoided, i don't even understand why that one was bootlegged, i saw one on ebay for [from memory, about] $10 recently... :scratch:

i really like contributing to discogs' database, you should add these dodgy ones you have too :thumbsup:

Author:  Daemonlord [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Jiikky wrote:

Thanks a lot! I already have my own evidence, your support makes me more confident. I'm gonna try to return these CDs without too much of a hassle. Any ideas on how to do it? Should I just be honest and tell me I suspect that he's scamming me or make up some excuse so I get away easier (or is that illegal)? Also, is matrix code the same as catalogue number?


For getting your money back - I'd contact him as I did. Say you know they're bootlegs and that you want your money back, asking for a returns address. Don't get into a conversation with him like I did as he will try to convince you they're legit. If you get no joy doing that, claim through Amazon and leave him shit feedback to warn others. The guy has a saddening amount of positive feedbacks, clearly from people who're unaware they've been flogged duff goods - even a threat of a negative should get you what you want. Don't be a pussy with bootleggers - tell him straight you know you've been scammed and aren't going to stand for it.

The best way of telling bootlegs these days is not always to rely on the matrix code unfortunately. Sometimes you'll get real amateur hour boots which have the album title or the band name as a matrix - these are easy to spot. However, some bootleggers manage to get the correct matrix codes or at least something very similar. The only way to tell these apart unfortunately is to check the actual font which the matrix code is written in. Not so long ago I had a bootleg copy of Dimmu Borgir's debut album on No Colours - correct matrix - completely the wrong font (though I did double check with a thread here just to be sure as it was part of a trade, and the guy who sent me it was also legitimately completely unaware and pretty annoyed that he in turn had been scammed). As a collector, I can usually spot a fake fairly easily these days just by having a wide range of titles from the same label (as an example), so you get a feeling for the usual 'style' of font on each matrix from the same era - bootlegs will have their own style. Discogs and Musik Sammler are pretty reliable for correct codes, and Google images can sometimes (if you're lucky) be useful for finding the correct 'font' style. Once the bootleggers work out how to copy the style AND the matrices - we're all fucked - haha! Lucky thing is, at the moment the 'font' style is often down to the pressing plant used so it is very hard to immitate.

androdion wrote:
Exactly. It's the same with the Protector albums floating around for $11, all from Russia. I think that Russia is bound to decrown Greece very soon, if it hasn't already happened.

PS: Love your blog Daemonlord. Although it makes me feel depressed most of the time. ;)


Cheers man! Yeah Protector albums are bootlegged to hell these days, as well as most of the early Noise stuff (like the above Coroner CDs), Atom H, Active Records, early Black Mark, Combat, Drowned Productions, Music For Nations, early Roadrunner, Under One Flag, ... it's a minefield! Gotta keep an eagle eye on these assholes. Greece is definitely being overtaken by Russia/Baltic States for the bootleg capital of the world!

Author:  dreadmeat [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Don't be a pussy with bootleggers - tell him straight you know you've been scammed and aren't going to stand for it.

f'kn aye :thumbsup:

Author:  Grief_Of_Adoration [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BOOTLEG WARNING!!!!!! NO REMORSE GREECE

Up

Author:  Recordcollector [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

N/A

Author:  dreadmeat [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

the paper booklets etc will likely 'smell old' too, i always feel weird sniffing cds in the shop.

Author:  androdion [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

As has been said the matrix can be cheated so don't rely solely on that. For instance the Deathrow bootleg has the correct matrix code, but it does have a glaring mistake. It has the Noise International CAT# on the spine and the Noise (EU) CAT# on the CD. Nowadays you have to check possible fake copies with a close eye and get all the details together.

It seems also that most boots come from 80's thrash and 90's black metal releases.

@ Daemonlord - When you say that early Black Mark has been bootlegged what albums are you referring to? You've left me curious, mainly because I can't seem to understand what's the deal with all the Edge Of Sanity albums going around, although the current idea is that there have been some represses in the past decade.

Author:  Jiikky [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

dreadmeat wrote:
matrix info, mastering and mould sid codes are pretty difficult to copy
also if they have just been burned they won't be silver they'll have blue green colouration, or at least it'll just look 'not silver' and won't be uniform.

this guy sold me some fake cds, it was real amateur stuff though: http://gglobb.wordpress.com/fake-cds/


Thanks, that's some useful information (and a relief!)

VHSDVD123 wrote:
nice nails, OP


Hey come on, they're not THAT long yet! Ok ok, I'll cut them...

DaemonLord wrote:
For getting your money back - I'd contact him as I did. Say you know they're bootlegs and that you want your money back, asking for a returns address. Don't get into a conversation with him like I did as he will try to convince you they're legit. If you get no joy doing that, claim through Amazon and leave him shit feedback to warn others. The guy has a saddening amount of positive feedbacks, clearly from people who're unaware they've been flogged duff goods - even a threat of a negative should get you what you want. Don't be a pussy with bootleggers - tell him straight you know you've been scammed and aren't going to stand for it.


Alright, that's exactly what I will do! Scammers like these deserve shit! And yeah I guess I shouldn't be a pussy, I just wondered if I could avoid all that shit from him but I guess I just have to take it.

Author:  Daemonlord [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

androdion wrote:
@ Daemonlord - When you say that early Black Mark has been bootlegged what albums are you referring to? You've left me curious, mainly because I can't seem to understand what's the deal with all the Edge Of Sanity albums going around, although the current idea is that there have been some represses in the past decade.


Well, I know for 100% that Agressor's Towards Beyond & Symposium of Rebirth on Black Mark have been bootlegged. I've also heard rumour that Invocator's Excursion Demise has also been booted by more than one source, but haven't seen that with my own eyes.

Author:  androdion [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Funny, I had never heard of that band before. Seems like it could warrant some investigation! :)

Excursion Demise has also been booted you say?! Damned be! Since we're on the subject and you've got some knowledge of these things, can you shed some light on the Black Mark represses from 2003 onwards? It seems they've reprinted if not all then a big part of their back catalogue in that year, but there's hardly any info about it. There's also mention on the usual websites of 2006/2010 represses but info is again scarce. And I'm not referring to Russian editions from IROND. Do you have any info on this matter?

Author:  SoundsofDecay [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

I have a copy of the first Dodheimsgard album which is fake, but matches the original right down to the matrix code.

Author:  orionmetalhead [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Notes of known bootlegs and links to images of such would be a great addition to the archives. There should be an attempt to not only provide official releases but also unofficial bootlegs so that people do not get ripped off. After all, this website is a source for most collectors.

Author:  Jiikky [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

By the way, now that we're on the subject; can you tell me if there are any good, obviously reliable sellers and who I should avoid (other than this thetuneofUK)? I don't want this to be the end of my collecting (which hasn't even been going on for a long yet lol)

Author:  dreadmeat [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

the trading board has some lists etc
http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewforum.php?f=6

Author:  STORMM [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Jiikky wrote:
By the way, now that we're on the subject; can you tell me if there are any good, obviously reliable sellers and who I should avoid (other than this thetuneofUK)? I don't want this to be the end of my collecting (which hasn't even been going on for a long yet lol)


Shit news indeed Jiikky, as already mentioned a lot of releases from Russia etc nowadays are bootlegs. I myself order a lot of albums from amazon etc usually from uk sellers or the u.s. sometimes. A lot of the time I go for the pre-owned stuff, it's cheaper usually and just about 100% of the time they are original releases, prob due to people selling of their old collections etc or maybe from shops that mainly deal in second hand goods.

Author:  Daemonlord [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

androdion wrote:
Funny, I had never heard of that band before. Seems like it could warrant some investigation! :)

Excursion Demise has also been booted you say?! Damned be! Since we're on the subject and you've got some knowledge of these things, can you shed some light on the Black Mark represses from 2003 onwards? It seems they've reprinted if not all then a big part of their back catalogue in that year, but there's hardly any info about it. There's also mention on the usual websites of 2006/2010 represses but info is again scarce. And I'm not referring to Russian editions from IROND. Do you have any info on this matter?


Aye, Agressor were pretty good - worth looking into. I have heard about these re-presses, but don't know a lot about it to be honest. As the label is still in operation it wouldn't surprise me if the stuff they have the rights to print & sell (Bathory, Edge of Sanity & anything else they're currently flogging on their webstore) is in a constant ongoing state of re-press. Anything they released which is now considered 'rare', they likely lost the rights to.

Author:  ENKC [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Metal_Detector wrote:
There'a almost no way of telling what Noise CDs are fake or real anymore. It's really dragged down their value.

This interests me since I'm finally getting my Running Wild collection properly underway.

I suppose if it's such a good fake that I have no easy way of telling, I haven't lost out.

Author:  false_icon [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

SoundsofDecay wrote:
I have a copy of the first Dodheimsgard album which is fake, but matches the original right down to the matrix code.

What are the differences with a genuine press, then? ifpi code ?
I'm interested in knowing, as I bought this one second hand not so long ago, and while it does have the same matrix code as discogs, it may be a bootleg...

Author:  Jiikky [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

I contacted the russian seller, he didn't get mad at all and told me the address I must return the items to. The message was quite long though; he said he bought the products from the internet, then he said that the products I bought are mega rare and very expensive all over the internet and he sold them to me for 3-4x cheaper. Why the fuck would he buy the product for an expensive price just to sell them to everyone for 3-4x cheaper? :D

"I really do not know, dear (name), what you think and what you expect when you buy a mega-rare CD for ridiculous money. I would have understood you, if I sold the Coroner "Mental Vortex" CD for 30-40 GBP, at it's real price. But I sold this CD for only 10.99 GBP. At 3-4 times cheaper. And the other CDs - the same thing." -the seller

Well what I think and expect is a CHEAP BOOTLEG, LOL! Isn't it obvious? It's as if he expects that the cheaper the price on rare CDs the better, while it's usually the other way around - the more expensive the more reliable they are!

"May be relatively objective criterion in Internet - the price of the product. I think that if you are an clever man - you agree with that." -seller

I wonder what he meant by that?

Anyway, no hassle like you had, Daemonlord ;)

Author:  Recordcollector [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

N/A

Author:  ~Guest 104167 [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Guys don't buy Russian licensed CDs except of Russian bands' CDs! Avoid the labels Irond, CD-Maximum, Soyuz and Sony BMG Russia if you want to buy non-Russian CDs. It's not about good quality. Sometimes it came with non-full booklets and some pirate copies are better, really. They are good only for those who haven't possibility to buy originals due to the lack of it in Russia. Be very careful with Russian sellers and always ask 'em before buying something. For example you may look for original CD but you'll get Russian license or even pirate copy! I think lot of people here in Russia still have their pirate copies from early 00's when it was hard to get something real and they can sell it as original. Sometimes that pirate copies can contain weird bonus tracks. And if you want to buy something from Russian metal music and CD costs more than 10$ - better avoid it because all our CDs cost no more than 10$. Also if the price is lower than 10$ for non-Russian bands be careful - it also can be pirate copy or Russian license. You know Russia is one of the most piracy countries. Yes, original CDs are possible to find and buy in few shops but prices are high, usually 15-20$ for 1 CD. If it's something rare... one of our shop in Moscow sell Protector original CDs and the price was higher that 80$. You know, some "well-organized" huckster sellers just want to get more and more money, they don't care what they selling.
And don't be too surprised if your shipping price will be higher than price of your items - we have expensive post rates.

Author:  Acidbubblebath [ Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Attention! Bootlegs Excruciate, Authorize, Wombbath!!!!

Bump.
Stay away from this seller.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/ILLDISPOSED-FOUR ... 2a2126ae33

Author:  Daemonlord [ Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Interesting, just checked now and it seems the seller has now delisted all their items from Amazon (failing that, they might've been pulled by Amazon). Awesome. Hopefully this thread played some part in that...

Author:  breeze kneeze [ Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

I ordered a couple metallica CDs from a seller called musicshop780 a while back. The master of puppets CD was a little washed out colored looking. You can never really tell if something is a bootleg I guess. musicshop780 sells for dirt cheap. I got megadeth rust in peace for like 6 dollars plus 3 dollars shipping.

Author:  Jiikky [ Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

HOORAY! He's out of business (partly at least, they still have their www.discogs.com user and their own website www.azintex-music.com. On the other hand, what does this mean to me? Does this mean I can't return the CDs anymore? Does this mean I have no protection anymore and he won't refund me after I send the CDs (I haven't sent them yet)?

Author:  Jiikky [ Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Wait, I figured it out. The motherfucker is just changing his name so that the customers who wanted their money back won't get them since they won't have amazon as their guardian anymore! Soon he will probably have another user in amazon and there's not shit I can do about it.

Author:  nhh [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

.

Author:  Daemonlord [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Jiikky wrote:
Wait, I figured it out. The motherfucker is just changing his name so that the customers who wanted their money back won't get them since they won't have amazon as their guardian anymore! Soon he will probably have another user in amazon and there's not shit I can do about it.


It doesn't matter if he's changed his name, it's still in your order history. If you've ordered it and it's a bootleg, you're covered by Amazon's A-Z claims.

Author:  StratGuy888 [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

...and people complain about downloaders.

If the record companies invested in technology that made CD copying impossible then there would ONLY be legit copies for sale, therefore consumers could buy with confidence.

Of course the scamming bastards would pass the costs onto the consumer and a CD would be far more overpriced than it already is.

Author:  orionmetalhead [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

StratGuy888 wrote:
If the record companies invested in technology that made CD copying impossible then there would ONLY be legit copies for sale, therefore consumers could buy with confidence.


Not true. Audio will always be able to be copied. It's as simple as playing a cd into a recording program and then using that as your source. There is no way to prevent people from bootlegging. All you can do is protect yourself by being extremely careful when buying and exposing the bootleg scum when you discover them out.

Author:  StratGuy888 [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

orionmetalhead wrote:
StratGuy888 wrote:
If the record companies invested in technology that made CD copying impossible then there would ONLY be legit copies for sale, therefore consumers could buy with confidence.


Not true. Audio will always be able to be copied. It's as simple as playing a cd into a recording program and then using that as your source. There is no way to prevent people from bootlegging. All you can do is protect yourself by being extremely careful when buying and exposing the bootleg scum when you discover them out.


Wrong.

Anything's possible given enough time and money.....

Author:  DestruicaoMetalica [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

Not sure if this has been posted, but I'd just like to say that Blasterplan on eBay looks to be selling all Russian fakes. I've watched his CDs before, and they're either legit russian presses (The newest Amon Amarth on Fono Records) or obvious boots similar to ones I've gotten in the past. I got a bootleg of Running Wild's Blazon Stone and Port Royal a while ago from Speedyk (A user on here, I was stupid to think I was actually getting real copies considering the easy to find stuff I was trading) and Blasterplan is selling Blazon Stone (Which looks like an original, not a re issue) for $10, way too little for that album.

Author:  Jiikky [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Research on suspicion of fake CDs - share your thoughts!

I just found out that the seller hasn't been removed from amazon, only his products are gone. Should I still send these CDs back to him?

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