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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:42 am 
 

Been wondering this for a while.

The earliest band I know of who I've ever heard that has a sludgy sound, and who I once heard someone mention as the 1st sludge band (can't remember who) is a band no one ever mentions called Graveyard Rodeo. Seems they formed in 79' and released their 1st demo in 84' (never heard it) but didn't release their 1st full length "Sowing Discord in the Haunts of Man" till 1993 which only has one review on here that got 5% haha. I own it on CD and honestly think it's an ok album, not great or as good as other sludge bands of the era, but at least worth a C-C+ in my book.

Aside from them, the earliest influences usually mentioned that are well known are the Melvins and Black Flag, but really it's only the B side of My War that sounds like Sludge to me.

I'm tempted to say that the 1st well established band to coin the sound was The Melvins but with Black Flag as an influence and Graveyard Rodeo as an oddity that maybe should count for something I guess but they seemingly had no influence, despite having come out of N.O.L.A. much like the later sludge scene, which I guess should give them some merit.

If not for these bands, EyehateGod formed in 88' w/ their 1st demo in 89 and full length in 90, Crowbar a bit later in 90', Acid Bath 91', Buzzoven 90', Grief 91', all around the same time, and I personally don't think Corrosion of Conformity was ever really sludge, more southern style metal/crossover, though they formed way back in 82'. I didn't realize Neurosis also formed back in 85' so they were earlier than I thought so maybe it was them?

There are also bands like Fudge Tunnel who I always liked who formed in 88' who had kind of a sludge/groove thing going on, and I think most would agree Hellhammer, Celtic Frost and a lot of crust punk, D-Beat and hardcore influenced early Sludge as well.

So who do you guys really think the 1st true sludge band was?

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AllHallowsEve
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:04 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:56 am 
 

Black Sabbath.

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thesilentenigma
Puddlemonkey

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:22 pm
Posts: 679
Location: In a pocket full of posies
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:18 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
So who do you guys really think the 1st true sludge band was?


Whoever it was they need to be held accountable and punished accordingly.
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Sepulchrave
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
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Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:50 am 
 

Think I talked about them ages ago. Graveyard Rodeo are awesome.
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~Guest 118084
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Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:05 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:04 pm 
 

Eyehategod was the first "pure" sludge metal band. All others sludge metal bands incorporated different genres within their music. Some consider the Melvins to be the creator of sludge metal but I think they experimented with different sounds if I'm correct.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:13 am 
 

AllHallowsEve wrote:
Black Sabbath.


We all know they were the first Doom band but Sludge is a different beast.

You can't call Black Sabbath and EyeHateGod the same genre really. Crust punk and hardcore are a big part of sludge.


Last edited by Ill-Starred Son on Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:14 am 
 

TheConqueror1 wrote:
Eyehategod was the first "pure" sludge metal band. All others sludge metal bands incorporated different genres within their music. Some consider the Melvins to be the creator of sludge metal but I think they experimented with different sounds if I'm correct.


Even over Graveyard Rodeo who were earlier and also from NOLA?

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9691
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:30 am 
 

thesilentenigma wrote:
Whoever it was they need to be held accountable and punished accordingly.

Indeed
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:34 am 
 

No love for EyehateGod, Melvins, Iron Monkey, Grief, Buzzoven, etc?

I'm a big fan of the style.

I think if you like crust punk, D-Beat and Doom (which I do) it's hard not to like the combo. If you like Black Flag, Discharge, Amebix and Black Sabbath and want to hear them in a blender with harsh vocals, sludge is good.

To each their own.

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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 114
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:42 am 
 

The concept that genres are clean divisions between each other and thus that you can definitely point to any one band as being objectively the first sludge band is a flawed concept in its own right.

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
No love for EyehateGod, Melvins, Iron Monkey, Grief, Buzzoven, etc?

I'm a big fan of the style.

I think if you like crust punk, D-Beat and Doom (which I do) it's hard not to like the combo. If you like Black Flag, Discharge, Amebix and Black Sabbath and want to hear them in a blender with harsh vocals, sludge is good.

To each their own.



If it isn't OSDM, old-school Thrash, black metal (but only pure black metal untainted by any outside influence), and the smattering of few bands in other genres that get a pass, this forum thinks it's shit. Simple as that. Best not to let it get to you too much.

Also this forum fucking hates all forms of Punk so of course it hates Sludge.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:59 am 
 

Vadara wrote:
If it isn't OSDM, old-school Thrash, black metal (but only pure black metal untainted by any outside influence), and the smattering of few bands in other genres that get a pass, this forum thinks it's shit. Simple as that. Best not to let it get to you too much.

Wut. What is this whiny nonsensi.... [checks username]. ...Oh. Of course. :lol:
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Big_Grand
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:59 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:44 am 
 

Blue Cheer, even though their vocals weren't the sludgiest the guitar work was sludge.
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StryckenFromHistory
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:27 pm
Posts: 253
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:10 pm 
 

Big_Grand wrote:
Blue Cheer, even though their vocals weren't the sludgiest the guitar work was sludge.
Your tone indicates that

1) this is a dumb hot take
2) you know this isn't true
3) will leave this blank for now
4) I'll stress again that this statement is fucking retarded

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CrippledLucifer
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 459
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:39 pm 
 

As is often the case with various musical sub/genres it is difficult to draw the line between the first sludge band and everything that came before since new genres do not usually pop up from one single band but rather are a product of several bands and over a period of years, evolving and influencing each other. This is specially true in the case of sludge, being mostly a hybrid genre of doom metal and hardcore punk, so drawing a line with Eyehategod, or going a little bit back to the Melvins, or further back with maybe Flipper or My War side B is equally fine since this line is anyway probably arbitrary, and definitely subjective.

That being said, you people in this thread are hating! Early sludge is awesome, filthy, dismal music with a miserable lowlife mood not quite often seen in other styles of extreme music. I'm pretty burned out on more recent sludge (all the stoner 70s horror crap is particularly alienating for me) but even then there are still a few superb bands playing the style, Hell being one of the best examples in my opinion.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:14 am 
 

Vadara wrote:
The concept that genres are clean divisions between each other and thus that you can definitely point to any one band as being objectively the first sludge band is a flawed concept in its own right.

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
No love for EyehateGod, Melvins, Iron Monkey, Grief, Buzzoven, etc?

I'm a big fan of the style.

I think if you like crust punk, D-Beat and Doom (which I do) it's hard not to like the combo. If you like Black Flag, Discharge, Amebix and Black Sabbath and want to hear them in a blender with harsh vocals, sludge is good.

To each their own.



If it isn't OSDM, old-school Thrash, black metal (but only pure black metal untainted by any outside influence), and the smattering of few bands in other genres that get a pass, this forum thinks it's shit. Simple as that. Best not to let it get to you too much.

Also this forum fucking hates all forms of Punk so of course it hates Sludge.



I don't necessarily think there are clean divisions between genres, but I think there are tipping points at certain points in time where certain bands lean towards certain sounds and then other bands follow suite.

Obviously it's only later on that we make the assessments about who the first band or bands of a genre were and they are always up for debate but I find it interesting to discuss as long as people don't go nuts on pigeon-holing.

I mean it's no different with any other art form.

I'm big into old gothic literature from the 19th century and also all surrounding genres like the English Romantic Poets, the lesser known Graveyard Poets, and later on the Decadents and some Surrealists. At the time that these genres of writing started few people would have named them and even later not every piece of writing from those eras fits neatly into a genre.

Same for painting: art historians will go back and talk about the first Expressionists, Impressionists, Surrealists, etc, and not every artist necessarily fit into one category all the time, but enough of them followed certain trends that art history is now something you can major in in college and use to become a museum curator.

Everything in moderation I guess.

I don't think this site hates music that isn't OSDM. I've seen posters into all styles.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:21 am 
 

CrippledLucifer wrote:
As is often the case with various musical sub/genres it is difficult to draw the line between the first sludge band and everything that came before since new genres do not usually pop up from one single band but rather are a product of several bands and over a period of years, evolving and influencing each other. This is specially true in the case of sludge, being mostly a hybrid genre of doom metal and hardcore punk, so drawing a line with Eyehategod, or going a little bit back to the Melvins, or further back with maybe Flipper or My War side B is equally fine since this line is anyway probably arbitrary, and definitely subjective.

That being said, you people in this thread are hating! Early sludge is awesome, filthy, dismal music with a miserable lowlife mood not quite often seen in other styles of extreme music. I'm pretty burned out on more recent sludge (all the stoner 70s horror crap is particularly alienating for me) but even then there are still a few superb bands playing the style, Hell being one of the best examples in my opinion.


I don't know Hell so I'll have to check them out.

Primitive Man is one newer sludge band that's CRUSHINGLY heavy that I just discovered.

Now there are actually a lot of good blackened sludge bands or the bands that blur the line between a lot of extreme genres from black to death to grind to sludge with crust punk and D-Beat influences etc.

Bands like Dragged Into Sunlight, Sunlight's Bane, Lord Mantis, Sloth Herder, Bastard Feast and countless others are some of my favorites to listen to now and all have a healthy amount of sludge.

Actually, I'm surprised Sunlight's Bane isn't on this site yet cause they are DEFINITELY metal, and probably fit into that Blackened-Sludge scene.

Check this out: https://youtu.be/nuW3ncG7G9E

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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 130
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:31 am 
 

Apart from the band's mentioned, for some reason Corrosion of Confirmity comes to mind as well, even though I can't really remember how many slow and dragging parts their early records had.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:06 pm 
 

HaPoStaPu wrote:
Apart from the band's mentioned, for some reason Corrosion of Confirmity comes to mind as well, even though I can't really remember how many slow and dragging parts their early records had.


I've never personally felt they were heavy enough to be sludge.

They seem more like a doomier-later version of Lynryd Skynard to me. Black Label society as well.

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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 2298
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:14 pm 
 

I would consider Flipper to be the ancestral precursor of Sludge, and certainly the Melvins would be as well. However EyehateGod is probably the definitive "First" sludge band, at least as far as being a genre-defining band that really started the whole sub-category.

I haven't really heard the first couple Neurosis recordings so I can't judge them- I only know their later (post mid-90's) stuff, but from what I understand, hat I've been told anyway the first Neurosis records were more traditional punk than their slow doomy sludgy stuff (most of which is excellent by the way.)

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sicboy
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 12:22 pm
Posts: 9
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:29 pm 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
I haven't really heard the first couple Neurosis recordings so I can't judge them- I only know their later (post mid-90's) stuff, but from what I understand, hat I've been told anyway the first Neurosis records were more traditional punk than their slow doomy sludgy stuff (most of which is excellent by the way.)


It's definitely less heavy and more punk (Pain of Mind and Word as Law LPs). Heck, the 2nd LP was on Lookout! Records, which released the first Green Day record! That said, they are solid records, but it wasn't until Souls At Zero and Enemy of the Sun specifically that they began developing the "tribal" crushing sound they are known for.

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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 4526
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:31 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
HaPoStaPu wrote:
Apart from the band's mentioned, for some reason Corrosion of Confirmity comes to mind as well, even though I can't really remember how many slow and dragging parts their early records had.


I've never personally felt they were heavy enough to be sludge.

They seem more like a doomier-later version of Lynryd Skynard to me. Black Label society as well.


Corrosion of Conformity is basically Black Label Society if you took out the pinch harmonics and all the stupid. I'd say Eyehategod is a pretty safe bet for first pure sludge band. My gut is to throw the Melvins in there but they have far too much else going on. I wager they didn't even get that "sludgy" until Lysol and Bullhead.
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chuggingpus
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Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:56 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:41 pm 
 

The first time I saw the word sludge used to describe a band was when Bovine Records sent me a small flyer for EyeHateGod’s Ruptured Heart Theory 7”

the Melvins’ early works are much better than EyeHateGod’s discography as well as Man Is The Bastard’s works (they went under the made up genre “power violence”) who sounded like early Melvins meets NoMeansNo and Infest. I first heard Crowbar during their s/t album and they weren’t labeled as “sludge” same for Grief who started getting out there the same time as EHG. They started using the sludge label later.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:22 pm 
 

chuggingpus wrote:
The first time I saw the word sludge used to describe a band was when Bovine Records sent me a small flyer for EyeHateGod’s Ruptured Heart Theory 7”

the Melvins’ early works are much better than EyeHateGod’s discography as well as Man Is The Bastard’s works (they went under the made up genre “power violence”) who sounded like early Melvins meets NoMeansNo and Infest. I first heard Crowbar during their s/t album and they weren’t labeled as “sludge” same for Grief who started getting out there the same time as EHG. They started using the sludge label later.


I would strongly disagree that Power Violence is a made up genre. I've actually been researching and listening to a lot of early Powerviolence and Fastcore/Thrashcore lately and that kind of stuff is definitely a style of punk.

Fastcore/Thrashcore was really the core root style as a faster form of hardcore with early bands like Siege, Larm, Deep Wound, Antisocial, etc and then Power Violence was the Calfifornia scene that came out of that later style.

If you listen to Power Violence bands like No Comment, Capitalist Casualities, Crossed Out, Spazz, etc, I don't see how you couldn't say it's it's own style, nor could I see you not hearing a distinct sound in those early Fastcore/Thrascore bands I mentioned. You even mentioned Infest who was also part of that PV scene.

If you look up both Fastcore and Power Violence on Wikipedia you will see they were distinct styles, though PV was a California scene and Fastcore a subgenre of hardcore with bands from all over the place.

I actually like a lot of those bands.

I mean the only thing you could try to do is say it was hardcore or crust or some other kind of heavy punk, but there are distinct differences. What else would you call that stuff if not Power Violence and Fastcore/Thrashcore?

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:52 pm 
 

some use fastcore and thrashcore interchangeably but to me fastcore is PV without the slow parts while thrashcore is just fast american hardcore. Now ofcourse there are bands in between things but something like No Comment is straight PV, early D.R.I. straight thrashcore and Coke Bust straight fastcore.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:57 pm 
 

Power violence is like heavy violence but with more keyboards and fantasy lyrics.
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Bingewolf
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 350
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:09 pm 
 

Melvins are the fathers of sludge. They were experimental and did a lot more than just sludge but they birthed it. COC fits in the mix around that time as well but, to me (and most others), they were primarily a crossover band and not really sludge.

The first pure sludge band was EHG. My personal favorite of the lot was Grief... and I love the Iron Monkey debut as well.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:32 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Power violence is like heavy violence but with more keyboards and fantasy lyrics.


Power violence really is a genre of punk including many different bands from Capitalist Casualties to Despise You to Infest, Man is the Bastard, Benumb, Charles Bronson (I don't like them), Crossed Out, Spazz, etc.

It's basically punk's answer to grindcore: as some hard core, crust, D-beat and fastcore/thrascore began to become much more influenced by metal and turned into grindcore, other punks didn't want any metal influence but still wanted to be fast and heavy so they went in a different direction.

I've been listening to a lot of it lately and some of it is pretty good and some is terrible.

Some of them tend to have influences from Sludge as well as noise, noisecore, etc.


Last edited by Ill-Starred Son on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:33 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
some use fastcore and thrashcore interchangeably but to me fastcore is PV without the slow parts while thrashcore is just fast american hardcore. Now ofcourse there are bands in between things but something like No Comment is straight PV, early D.R.I. straight thrashcore and Coke Bust straight fastcore.


I've always thought fastcore and thrashcore were the same thing?

According to Wikipedia they are at least.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:34 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Melvins are the fathers of sludge. They were experimental and did a lot more than just sludge but they birthed it. COC fits in the mix around that time as well but, to me (and most others), they were primarily a crossover band and not really sludge.

The first pure sludge band was EHG. My personal favorite of the lot was Grief... and I love the Iron Monkey debut as well.


Could be, though technically that band Graveyard Rodeo did exist before them, even if they are pretty much unknown to most people.

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chuggingpus
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:56 am
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Location: Vatican City
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:23 pm 
 

Graveyard Rodeo sucked hard. It’s not that people hadn’t heard of them, just whoever did probably thought they sucked. I remember they had ads in the big metal magazines.

Acid Bath had a bit of cult following before Eyehategod did. But EHG were the first band using the
“sludgecore” banner.

Power violence was a term made up by a member of the band Neanderthal who’s bass player later formed Man Is The Bastard and used that term to describe his band and some other fast hardcore bands from California. I guess it’s a bit of a sound, based around band alike Infest, Crossed Out and No Comment but to me it’s pretty much hardcore with some regional influences (which were more pronounced in the pre-internet days)

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:33 pm 
 

chuggingpus wrote:
Graveyard Rodeo sucked hard. It’s not that people hadn’t heard of them, just whoever did probably thought they sucked. I remember they had ads in the big metal magazines.

Acid Bath had a bit of cult following before Eyehategod did. But EHG were the first band using the
“sludgecore” banner.

Power violence was a term made up by a member of the band Neanderthal who’s bass player later formed Man Is The Bastard and used that term to describe his band and some other fast hardcore bands from California. I guess it’s a bit of a sound, based around band alike Infest, Crossed Out and No Comment but to me it’s pretty much hardcore with some regional influences (which were more pronounced in the pre-internet days)


Edit: In going back and listening to Sowing Discord in The Haunts of Man, I actually will kind of agree that Graveyard Rodeo isn't that good lol...however, that doesn't necessarily say anything about whether or not they could have had something to do with the development of the scene. The album is pretty much a hardcore album, but there's better hardcore out there. Perhaps the Melvins or someone else does deserve more credit, though they actually do at times sound a bit like a worse version of a less-inspired Crowbar...kind of...probably the Melvins and Black Flag to an extent inspired the scene and EHG was probably the first PURE sludge band.

I'm going to disagree that Power Violence isn't a distinct style, but I think PV was more of a SCENE and that the fastcore/thrashcore that influenced more of the core STYLE. It really sounds like certain early fastcore bands from the 80s like Siege, Larm, Deep Wound and others, with other influences, and if you listen to a band like Siege and their album Drop Dead and think it sounds like other typical hardcore of the era like Bad Brain or Black Flag then I'd be surprised. I can tell a big difference between that and typical hardcore punk. I know reddit is no authority, but over there they have a whole forum dedicated to it. Then again, they have forums for everything. Also listen to certain bands like Benumb and you hear a whole different thing going on.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

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StryckenFromHistory
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:27 pm
Posts: 253
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:45 pm 
 

There may be a gleam of hope for man since we are still hairsplitting sludge in 2019.

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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 7581
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:53 pm 
 

bro this is MA - hair splitting genres is a hobby.
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