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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:51 pm 
 

I know this has probably been discussed before and I know it's not always fair to pigeon hole bands but I was listening to both early and later Celtic Frost, Hellhammer and Triptykon lately and thinking about how their style has changed and the history of black metal in general.

I see here that Hellhammer and early Celtic Frost are listed as having some death metal in them but to be honest I don't hear it. In listening again to Hellhammer I heard early black, black thrash, and very heavy crust punk influence and also what might even be called some proto-sludge in a way. Sounds to me like they were probably influenced by Crust and D-Beat like Amebix and Discharge.

With early Celtic Frost it sounds to me like they got rid of the crust mostly and put in a lot of Goth and I've always thought I heard a strong Christian Death influence in early Celtic Frost, but I think they maintain the black, a bit of thrash and sludginess.

On Monotheist I do think I hear Doom-Death and Triptykon as well, but I really don't hear Death metal on anything Tom G. Warrior did earlier than that.

Am I crazy or does anyone else agree that Hellhammer and early Celtic Frost really did not have much death metal in them and more black, thrash, goth, sludge and crust punk?

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:03 pm 
 

It depends on what you think of as death metal. If you erase all knowledge of death metal 1990s and later from your mind and see death metal as late 1980s stuff like Obituary, Massacre, etc, you should be more likely to hear it in Hellhammer and Celtic Frost.
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raumr
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:13 pm 
 

I'd be interested to hear if any of the early death metal bands has cited Celtic Frost or Hellhammer as an inspiration. "Satanic Rites" and "Apocalyptic Raids" were released in 83 and 84, but I'm not familiar enough with the timeline of the genre to know if the death metal genre was well-established by then.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:21 pm 
 

Early death/thrash or old school death metal bands I know that covered Hellhammer are Slaughter, Incantation, Mutilator and Necro Schizma. Last two might not be big names but they were well known in their respective scenes, Mutilator from the same scene as Sarcófago and Sepultura and Necro Schizma from the same scene as Asphyx and Thanatos. Celtic Frost, well, I think pretty much every band in existence has covered "Procreation of the Wicked" or "Circle of the Tyrants".
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:43 pm 
 

Death covered Celtic Frost and Hellhammer on several of their early demo tapes from the mid-80s, Obituary covered Celtic Frost on their second album in 1990, and more old death metal bands than not named CF/HH as an influence. Search the archives for songs with either band name in them, and you'll find significant death metal bands from nearly every scene covering them at some point.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:55 pm 
 

Yeah I wonder where the French band Massacra got their name from...
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Flem Clone
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:10 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:41 pm 
 

Obituary's sound is blatantly inspired by Celtic Frost.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:12 am 
 

No offense guys, but I don't necessarily see bands of a style citing another earlier band as an influence as evidence that that band played the same style of music. If HH were in fact Death Metal they'd likely be the first having formed in 82' though. That's earlier than Death/Mantas, Possessed, Necrophagia and Master who are the earliest I know of.

I didn't ask if they influenced later death metal as I know they did, as well as black, but whether or not you actually hear death metal in their earlier music before Monotheist. Droneriot did address that but the rest of the posts seem about whether or not they were an influence.

I think Christian Death influenced Celtic Frost (we could debate whether or not that's true) but they themselves weren't even really metal, more death-rock/goth rock.

I don't know enough about guitar theory to say whether or not HH or CF's riffs follow the same patterns as early Death Metal, but that's really the kind of thing I'm asking, so maybe someone hear who knows more about guitar can answer the question.

I just went back and listened to some early Massacra songs and don't really hear that much of a similarity. They sound much faster and more typical of death metal than HH or CF. I do hear the influence on Obituary, but not enough in many other death metal bands of the time to say that I really feel either HH or early CF sounds like death metal. In comparing them to the other early death metal bands: Necrophagia, Death, Master, Morbid Angel, they don't really seem to sound all that similar to my ears.

Is there anyone who knows more about guitar theory who can say whether or not the types of riffs, scales and chords that HH or CF used in the 80s were similar to that of other death metal bands of the time?

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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:00 am 
 

You do hear death metal, but specifically you hear Obituary. Obituary is what Celtic Frost could have become if Tom Warrior stopped giving a fuck what the public thought and stayed away from avant garde.

I definitely do hear more black than death, for whatever that is worth.
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Sepulchrave
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:46 am 
 

^Hahaha, funny it's the opposite for me. I hear a lot more death than black metal in early CF/HH in my opinion. I can name a lot of death metal songs and groups where I feel I can clearly identify Celtic Frost-isms, but less so with black metal. Maybe a few Burzum or Darkthrone songs. Though Barathrum seem to love CF a lot.
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pale_horse
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:07 am 
 

Genre-typing these proto-genre bands is all quite nebulous.

Quote:
Obituary is what Celtic Frost could have become if Tom Warrior stopped giving a fuck what the public thought and stayed away from avant garde.

Celtic Frost is better than Obituary. Even if they released 1000 Cold Lakes, they still released Morbid Tales.
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colin040
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:30 am 
 

Sepulchrave wrote:
Maybe a few Burzum or Darkthrone songs. Though Barathrum seem to love CF a lot.


Don't forget Samael.

Plenty of those early death metal bands have their CF-ish moments here and there; early Death,Death, early Sepultura, Obituary and Slaughter for instance but I do think that early CF themselves were more black metal than anything else.

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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:45 am 
 

Tonally ambiguous riffs, weirdly heavy washed guitar sound, death grunts, completely morbid music? Yeah, Hellhammer and Celtic Frost have so much to do with death metal and black metal. I think they probably went more towards black metal aesthetically, but there's a fuck load of death metal to their sound, I can't really see how that's debatable.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:50 pm 
 

pale_horse wrote:
Genre-typing these proto-genre bands is all quite nebulous.

Quote:
Obituary is what Celtic Frost could have become if Tom Warrior stopped giving a fuck what the public thought and stayed away from avant garde.

Celtic Frost is better than Obituary. Even if they released 1000 Cold Lakes, they still released Morbid Tales.



WEWLAD
E
W
L
A
D

Morbid Tales is good but it's not that good. Nothing is.
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TheConqueror1
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:42 pm 
 

I hear more of a black metal sound more than a death metal sound. Hellhammer 's music kind of has a style similar to the Venom and Bathory. Although, I do think that Demon Entrails has a more distinct blackened death metal tone compared to the demos which were released earlier. I can also say that some of the demos goes beyond being raw, basically almost unlistenable due to the the bass-heavy sound.
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DecemberSoul
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:37 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
early Death,Death,

what happened here? :???:
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:40 pm 
 

pale_horse wrote:
Genre-typing these proto-genre bands is all quite nebulous.

Quote:
Obituary is what Celtic Frost could have become if Tom Warrior stopped giving a fuck what the public thought and stayed away from avant garde.

Celtic Frost is better than Obituary. Even if they released 1000 Cold Lakes, they still released Morbid Tales.


I can understand why you think so, but I find it interesting.

Not that bands can necessarily always be pigeon-holed and they can't always, and one shouldn't attempt to FORCE a band into a genre, but stylistically speaking, there are obvious differences between genres that someone with more musical theory than I have would be able to point to.

It's nebulous if you just claim a band has a style and don't back it up, but if you have knowledge of guitar theory I'd think it would become less nebulous if you can point to (for example) a particular guitar technique common amongst early death metal bands that either was or wasn't used by Hellhammer or Celtic Frost.

Of course, I can't do that, cause even though I played guitar for a few years I don't really know anything about music theory or how to explain it, I just know certain styles when I hear them (to some extent at least...)

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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:42 pm 
 

pale_horse wrote:
Genre-typing these proto-genre bands is all quite nebulous.

Quote:
Obituary is what Celtic Frost could have become if Tom Warrior stopped giving a fuck what the public thought and stayed away from avant garde.

Celtic Frost is better than Obituary. Even if they released 1000 Cold Lakes, they still released Morbid Tales.


What death metal bands in particular do you hear Celtic Frost/HH in?

And I agree. I think Celtic Frost and Hellhammer are WAY better than Obituary.

I was never even a big Obituary fan. I like them, but I don't love them and never spent hours and hours listening to them like I have with CF/HH.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:44 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
Sepulchrave wrote:
Maybe a few Burzum or Darkthrone songs. Though Barathrum seem to love CF a lot.


Don't forget Samael.

Plenty of those early death metal bands have their CF-ish moments here and there; early Death,Death, early Sepultura, Obituary and Slaughter for instance but I do think that early CF themselves were more black metal than anything else.


I agree that Samael is VERY CF/HH influenced (Swiss too), but this site actually lists them as black metal. I guess that's up for debate as well.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:49 pm 
 

Acrobat wrote:
Tonally ambiguous riffs, weirdly heavy washed guitar sound, death grunts, completely morbid music? Yeah, Hellhammer and Celtic Frost have so much to do with death metal and black metal. I think they probably went more towards black metal aesthetically, but there's a fuck load of death metal to their sound, I can't really see how that's debatable.


I'm not necessarily saying it isn't the case, I'm saying that I can't really off the top of my head list tons of death metal bands who weren't just influenced by them, but who actually sound like them, like I can with black metal. The one band in particular I can REALLY hear their sound in is Winter and I guess likewise probably certain other death-doom bands I can't think of off the top of my head. Maybe I do sort of hear a bit of them in Autopsy as well...I'm wondering if maybe i do actually hear a bit of HH/CF influence in some of the Stockholm bands like Entombed, Grave and Unleashed, and if they could have influenced Death'n Roll or if that's just my interpretation. Anyone else hear their influence in the Stockholm DM bands?

Can you name any other Death metal bands that don't have much black metal in them who you think really sounds like CF or HH?

I guess both CF and HH just really do defy genres, almost to an extent it's super impressive by bands releasing music as early as 83 and 84 respectively. HH in particular could be called not just perhaps the 1st extreme band but the 1st to mix styles. Regardless of where you have each band fall: black, death, crust punk and D-Beat influences, Doom, proto-sludge and goth rock/goth metal have pretty much been present in both bands even before black and death metal were necessarily fully established genres.

I guess I find it crazy. Bathory at least just sounds like black/black thrash and early Death metal bands like Death, Necrophagia and Master mostly stick to that genre, but as contemporaries, CF and HH were just as extreme and make them seem super limited stylistically.

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joppek
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:23 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
The one band in particular I can REALLY hear their sound in is Winter and I guess likewise probably certain other death-doom bands I can't think of off the top of my head.

i'd throw in cianide and coffins
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colin040
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:03 am 
 

DecemberSoul wrote:
colin040 wrote:
early Death,Death,

what happened here? :???:


I made a mistake!

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
pale_horse wrote:
Genre-typing these proto-genre bands is all quite nebulous.

Quote:
Obituary is what Celtic Frost could have become if Tom Warrior stopped giving a fuck what the public thought and stayed away from avant garde.

Celtic Frost is better than Obituary. Even if they released 1000 Cold Lakes, they still released Morbid Tales.


What death metal bands in particular do you hear Celtic Frost/HH in?


Early Therion, obviously. And I thought of mentioning the doom/death metal bands before - Divine Eve obviously loved Celtic Frost. Hell, Greg of Paradise Lost listened to a lot of Morbid Tales when they wrote Lost Paradise if my memory serves me well, but personally I think you hear more CF in Gothic than any other PL release, which was already a departure of the slow death metal style of the former.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:37 am 
 

Come to think of it, I think some of you guys have convinced me, it's just that when Celtic Frost and Hellhammer choose to do their DM they really sound like Doom-Death and not like faster death metal.

I was more thinking that I don't hear them as being similar to or having influenced bands like Cannibal Corpse, Death (even if they did cover them), Deicide, Necrophagia, Master, Immolation, Suffocation, Gorguts, Nile, Origin, etc etc etc.

But in thinking of comparing them to bands like Winter, Disembowlment, even Autopsy's slower moments, Obituary, Rippikoulu, and maybe sometimes slightly even early Amorphis and Abhorrence, I can hear their influence.

It's the slower, doomy more atmospheric death metal I guess I can hear them having influenced.

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chuggingpus
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:57 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Come to think of it, I think some of you guys have convinced me, it's just that when Celtic Frost and Hellhammer choose to do their DM they really sound like Doom-Death and not like faster death metal.

I was more thinking that I don't hear them as being similar to or having influenced bands like Cannibal Corpse, Death (even if they did cover them), Deicide, Necrophagia, Master, Immolation, Suffocation, Gorguts, Nile, Origin, etc etc etc.

But in thinking of comparing them to bands like Winter, Disembowlment, even Autopsy's slower moments, Obituary, Rippikoulu, and maybe sometimes slightly even early Amorphis and Abhorrence, I can hear their influence.

It's the slower, doomy more atmospheric death metal I guess I can hear them having influenced.


Not related to this topic so forgive me, but I often see this band Rippikoulu being mentioned with more celebrated and impactful bands from the 90’s. This band had very little impact outside of Finland, if you went in a time machine back to the mid 90’s, no one knew who they were at all and they don’t deserve to be lumped in with far more productive and known bands of that time period.

Rant complete, proceed

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joppek
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:21 am 
 

chuggingpus wrote:
Not related to this topic so forgive me, but I often see this band Rippikoulu being mentioned with more celebrated and impactful bands from the 90’s. This band had very little impact outside of Finland, if you went in a time machine back to the mid 90’s, no one knew who they were at all and they don’t deserve to be lumped in with far more productive and known bands of that time period.


i don't think i've ever seen anyone claim otherwise - they're often mentioned with a bunch of other bands because they have a similar sound, are from the same time/place, and/or have otherwise awesome material relevant to the topic at hand
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Thy Shrine
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:10 am 
 

pale_horse wrote:
Genre-typing these proto-genre bands is all quite nebulous.

Quote:
Obituary is what Celtic Frost could have become if Tom Warrior stopped giving a fuck what the public thought and stayed away from avant garde.

Celtic Frost is better than Obituary. Even if they released 1000 Cold Lakes, they still released Morbid Tales.



Yeah, but Obituary released Cause of death which is better than anything Celtic Frost ever did, and I like Celtic Frost quite a bit.
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pale_horse
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:11 am 
 

You’d have a more convincing argument if the best song on the album weren’t a Celtic Frost cover.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:14 pm 
 

chuggingpus wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Come to think of it, I think some of you guys have convinced me, it's just that when Celtic Frost and Hellhammer choose to do their DM they really sound like Doom-Death and not like faster death metal.

I was more thinking that I don't hear them as being similar to or having influenced bands like Cannibal Corpse, Death (even if they did cover them), Deicide, Necrophagia, Master, Immolation, Suffocation, Gorguts, Nile, Origin, etc etc etc.

But in thinking of comparing them to bands like Winter, Disembowlment, even Autopsy's slower moments, Obituary, Rippikoulu, and maybe sometimes slightly even early Amorphis and Abhorrence, I can hear their influence.

It's the slower, doomy more atmospheric death metal I guess I can hear them having influenced.


Not related to this topic so forgive me, but I often see this band Rippikoulu being mentioned with more celebrated and impactful bands from the 90’s. This band had very little impact outside of Finland, if you went in a time machine back to the mid 90’s, no one knew who they were at all and they don’t deserve to be lumped in with far more productive and known bands of that time period.

Rant complete, proceed


Fair enough. I mean I have their debut album and I like it but I'd agree they weren't well known and don't really deserve to be lumped in with well known bands.

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Sepulchrave
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:40 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
Sepulchrave wrote:
Maybe a few Burzum or Darkthrone songs. Though Barathrum seem to love CF a lot.


Don't forget Samael.


I did, and I kinda rescind my earlier statement now hahahaha.
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Thy Shrine
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:47 pm 
 

pale_horse wrote:
You’d have a more convincing argument if the best song on the album weren’t a Celtic Frost cover.



Wrong, Tom G. Warrior did not write Infected.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:59 pm 
 

its kinda tricky to call the material in question D or B metal. A lot of musical ideas that would be more fully explored and developed were first done by CF/HH in a primitive form. While something like Hell Awaits is closer to fully developed death metal in some ways they are also more clearly thrash while with CF/HH it almost like just a vague first sketch without really being thrash or anything.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:44 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
its kinda tricky to call the material in question D or B metal. A lot of musical ideas that would be more fully explored and developed were first done by CF/HH in a primitive form. While something like Hell Awaits is closer to fully developed death metal in some ways they are also more clearly thrash while with CF/HH it almost like just a vague first sketch without really being thrash or anything.


Yeah, I guess I think now that Hellhammer and Celtic Frost really were pioneers of mixing it all up. I mean if you listen to everything done by the 2 bands you can get bits of black, death, crust punk and D-beat, proto-sludge, early-doom-death, goth, and even glam of course on Cold Lake, and probably bits and piece of thrash in there as well. I guess Hellhammer and Celtic Frost really are bands that just defy categorization. They were really ahead of their time.

I think it's possible that Hellhammer could in fact be the first extreme metal band. I mean they formed in 82' and released 3 demos in 83' and nothing was like that back then, minus Venom who still were not nearly so diverse.

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