LegendMaker is cooler than vengefulgoat. That said, Ozzy wasn't that bad in the early albums. There was something special in his voice and he certainly sounded decent on songs like Planet Caravan. That said, I can't imagine another singer for those albums.

@Necro: Thanks.

Okay, here's my reply to ANA's post (edited my previous message, then realized Necro had posted in between):

@ANA: I totally acknowledge the distinction between good and suitable for the music at hand. Of course, one does not need to be capable of proper, technically good singing to do a good or even a great job as lead vocalist, at least in certain styles. I mean, a lot of thrash, black, death or, for that matter, country and rap frontmen cannot sing, either, and still do a great, fitting job. I also agree that Dio's approach was never a great fit for Ozzy-era songs (Martin handled them significantly better, but conversely, I'm sure that Dio would have done a fantastic job on Martin-era songs, had he not disappointingly decided to ignore them).


Really? I can, especially for Plant. Also, Gillan (despite being an awful match when he actually joined them for 'Born Again', his early 70s self would have rocked the shit out of "Paranoid" or "Sweet Leaf", I'm sure). The guy from Sir Lord Baltimore, I can totally imagine him as the Prince of Darkness, too.

Anyways, it might be a phase, but right now I'm painfully aware of just how sucky Ozzy's vocals were even back then... I hope it'll pass, actually. I'd rather keep enjoying early Sabbath.

I'm kinda sad that Dio never sung 'Headless Cross' or 'Law Maker' as well.




I dunno, I don't get any of those guys doing the whole "down to earth" occult stuff that Ozzy did (especially not an American! Aiiieeee! SLB are a cool band, though!). For me, Gillan's vibe was always a sort of polar opposite of Sabbath's doom and gloom (which is probably why Born Again is a charming oddity for me), so although he could have done a good job on some of the early Sabbath stuff (the songs you mentioned certainly could have worked), it's hard to imagine a 1970s version of, say, 'Electric Funeral' working as well as Ozzy's did. I must say, though, I prefer Gillan's versions of Ozzy-Sabbath to Dio's on the various bootlegs I've heard.

On a related note, the fact that Ozzy often did end up singing the riff actually ends up being quite cool, for me, as I can't imagine a lot of more accomplished singers doing that with Iommi's stuff (let's forget the title track of Heaven & Hell when it was played live, okay? ). Although I will admit, I find 'Iron Man's twin-vocal-guitar riff to be rather annoying I think that's just the note choice, itself. I'll always acknowledge that Ozzy was Sabbath's weak link in those days, but I think it ended up being more of a blessing than a curse... because those songs just don't carry the same weight with a more singer-y singer. Ozzy's weird, off-key, joyful-amateur-dribbling-all-over-the-mic vocals perhaps shouldn't work as well as they do... but, damn, for me, they're absolutely perfect for the style (and, as a side-note, I certainly don't think it's a coincidence that both Iommi and Ozzy spawned legions of imitators).

In conclusion, sing me a song... you're a singer. "Sing" like Ozzy and you're better for (1970s) Sabbath.

I've been thinking about this poll ever since it was posted, and I still haven't come to a conclusion. In fact, now that I think about it, I'm not even sure which Sabbath album is my favorite. For a while I thought it was 'Sabotage', then I switched to 'Master of Reality', then 'The Eternal Idol', and now I'm leaning towards 'Heaven and Hell'. What's a man to do in such a situation? And here's the thing: I think that Ozzy was a good singer as a young man. He's been terrible for many years now, but back then, he had quite a range, and a hell of a lot of feeling. His weird delivery is what cinched the eerie atmosphere of those old Sabbath records and scared the shit out of so many people. No one else (or very few others) could have done that. That's hard to overlook. On the other hand, I do think Dio and Tony Martin are much better singers, technically, and I like them better to boot. Ian Gillan's amazing too, but I don't think he was in top form on 'Born Again'. (I kind of think the band was drunk the whole time they were recording that one, actually.) I haven't heard 'Seventh Star' in a while, so I can't comment on Glenn Hughes.

Hmmm... Well, to wrap this up before I ramble any more, I think I'm going to have to go with Dio. I feel bad for not going with Tony Martin, because he is an incredible singer, and he was on some of their absolute best albums, but the more I listen to 'Heaven and Hell', the fewer faults I can find with it. Dio it is.

Edit: Derp. Didn't realize the poll ended two days ago.

Fair enough.

I guess Ozzy was particularly bad on 'Master of Reality'. I'm listening to "Snowblind" right now and I find myself appreciating his voice again, to an extent (it should be noted 'Tyr' scratched my itch for Sabbath-with-singing since my previous post; hey! you left me no choice when you mentioned "The Fucking Law Maker"...). I have to admit, those songs are not easy to take on for any singer, no matter how good they are. Even Messiah Marcolin failed to deliver (as did Candlemass in general with this tepid medley, to be fair, they clearly seemed to have tribute fright, here).

@Thiestru: Yop, the poll is closed. But don't beat yourself up, even with your +1, Dio would never have settled the score, unfortunately (not to mention Martin).

You see, as for the "Gillan singing for 70's Sabbath" thing..... He completely fucking owned that material. I wouldn't miss Ozzy at all if Ian would've sang in anything going from the debut to Sabotage. Hell, maybe even Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die would've been (at least marginally) better with him.

He was fantastic on that album (Born Again) but it was too brief a moment to qualify as best Sabbath vocalist.

I don't think such a thing as a less than stellar Ian Gillan performance exists.

I beg to differ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOg2r7lL ... r_embedded

That really wasn't bad. I think the audio constantly jittering about was more of a hamper on the performance than Ian himself.

Go see Gillan live nowadays, he'll probably struggle with a lot of his old stuff. I'd call that "lacking" (understandable, completely, given his age and lifestyle) but he's not aged so well.

Pretty much this. His voice still sounds good in the lower ranges but there's a reason why Deep Purple stopped playing Child In Time...

Gillan he did a very dark/awesome work there...

My absolute favorite would have to be Ronnie James Dio. His voice is so POWERFUL and very unique. Most people think of Ozzy when it comes to Sabbath but I think of Dio.
Tony martin is an amazing vocalist too, but very underrated and deserves much more attention than he has.
As for Ian Gillan? He wasn't very fitting to the band, he was better off in Deep Purple.

I'll start by saying that Ozzy's eerie vocals fit perfectly with the gloomy style found on Sabbath's first six albums. There are a whole lot of extremely memorable songs that were created during the Ozzy era. However, he is not a great vocalist by any means and has accomplished very little with his actual singing voice. Dio, however, has one of the most powerful voices in metal and pretty much any genre of music for that matter. When he joined with Sabbath, it seemed to me that Ozzy may have held them back a bit as Tony Iommi has come up with some of the most amazing guitar melodies during the Dio era. The one album they did with Ian Gillan was pretty good, but he wasn't with the band long enough for me to really consider him one of Sabbath's frontmen. Tony Martin is also an excellent singer though I feel that his vocals declined rather quickly with the later releases he appeared on. So, anyway, I like all incarnations of Sabbath but Dio gets my vote for best singer. Black Sabbath is my favorite band by the way.

Ronnie James Dio and Ian Gillan are in my top 5 favorite singers of all time. Ozzy wouldn't even crack the top 100.

Yet, I have to say Ozzy was the best fit for Black Sabbath. The genre Black Sabbath helped make blossom grew organically from the four original members. There was a very unique, tangible chemistry to the original lineup and they made some truly amazing and original music.

Dio-Era Sabbath I enjoy just as much but I think in the end, when they reunited for the last time, they got it right and changed the name. It's just not Black Sabbath. It is truly timeless music, though.

Purple Sabbath is just one album. It features some of the darkest songs I have ever heard but also a bunch of Deep Purple leftovers. That album is truly all over the place. I mean, Hot Line, Digital Bitch, Trashed are cool hard rock songs... they just lack the Sabbath vibe for me.

Tony Martin is a cock. And Black Sabbath with him as a frontman have released nothing but a collection of shitty, forgettable and extremely cheesy cock rock records.

Black Sabbath's Forbidden is probably one of the worst "metal" albums of all time.

Fuck you, Tony Martin.

You call this cock rock? What the fuck are you on?!

It's one of the least sucky songs on this record but yeah, past the intro there's a cock rock vibe. There's worse on the album, though. But maybe you're the one who is on something and refuses to hear the evidence.

This album is about as ballsy as Whitesnake at their most commercial. Reeks of fucking cheese!

Yeah, there's a blatantly commercial song on the album, but it's not like Paranoid didn't have the titletrack or Heaven and Hell contained Wishing Well*, right? I mean, the Martin albums might have quite a bit of an overtly 80's vibe, but that doesn't really mean anything, nor there is anything inherently bad about that. And no, it doesn't count as "cock rock" in any way, and when anything even remotely resembling a cock rock band releases doom anthems such as this song, I'll eat my hat.

*Disclaimer: I fucking LOVE Wishing Well.

'Feels Good to Me' is probably Sabbath's worst song (although with a new album in the works I wonder if it'll keep its reigning title). It is basically a sub-par Whitesnake ballad that has nothing at all to do with Black Sabbath. That said, the rest of the album - and most of the Martin era in general (apart from Forbidden, which is ropey in the extreme) - is pretty awesome.

We truly do not hear the same thing if you think Paranoid or Wishing Well have a comparable vibe to Feels Good To Me. Of course Sabbath have always had more accessible songs, ballads, bluesy numbers and the like.

But before it all went downhill with Glenn Hugues and then Tony Martin, those songs still had an identifiable Sabbath vibe.



Maybe you're more forgiving than I am but yeah, it is 100% pure cock rock to my and many's ears. The fact it contains signature Iommi riffs here and there as well as halfhearted attempts to dump other thematic elements of genuine Sabbath in cock rock songs is just not enough to save most of them.

What it does mean is that it's indigestible and fucking reeks. And that all the members of Sabbath have displayed various level of embarrassment or indifference to the Martin era. So much so that these albums generally aren't even available anymore and deservedly so.



I really like that song too!

I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree then. I really, really love the Martin era of Sabbath (save for Forbidden which, as pointed out by Acrobat, is quite an iffy album), and I just can't draw the cock rock comparisons you do. I don't hear them, period. But hey, at least we both love Dio era Sabbath, so I raise the horns to that

To each his own. This thread had me try to give Tyr one more spin last night and I stopped during Jerusalem (and its ridiculously half-assed back vocals) when I figured I would rather subject my ears to Loverboy.

I think Tony Martin had a cool voice. But not suitable to genuine Sabbath. It doesn't help that the whole Martin era is just a revolving door of session musicians with Tony Iommi in the center milking the Black Sabbath brand.

They're basically solo records in disguise from a guy whoring a legendary name as a poor cover.

Not surprisingly, the one album with the fewest embarrassing moments is most probably Cross Purpose. Although it's not a terribly inspired album and still doesn't deserve the Sabbath tag IMO, I guess Geezer vetoed a few things so it's less chuckle-worthy.

Yes indeed! Different strokes for different folks and all that! I'm sure there's plenty of music we have in common!

You probably have heard them, but a few solo-Martin records are pretty close to the Martin-Sabbath era if you enjoyed it, BTW! If you haven't checked that out, you might give this stuff a try!

Born Again is a fucking superior album to the Martin era stuff. I'm going to go with Dio, there are more bad Ozzy Sabbath albums that there are ones with Dio, despite Ozzy and Sabbath being the only real Sabbath there is. That might not make sense but that's just how its going to be.

He sounds like John Arch when he hits those high notes.

Eeeeeeh..... Nah. If anything, the biggest comparison I can draw is that those repeated choral lines during the beginning of the song heavily remind me of the way Freddie Mercury and company used to work with vocal harmonies. Arch is notably more nasal than Martin, and his vocal melodies are much, much weirder.

Both "camps" are half-right (and half-wrong) regarding the Tony Martin era. To each their own, sure, but beyond that there are things neither should be able to deny.

On the one hand, of course it's over-the-top enthusiastic to pretend that such albums as 'The Eternal Idol', 'Headless Cross' and 'Tyr' are exactly in the same league (let alone in the same vein) as 'Heaven and Hell'; those who take this stance typically have only the fantastic tracks out of those albums in mind, most of which happen to be the most metal (but not just). Quality wise, there *are* fillers aplenty from that era, more so than from the Dio era (about in the same proportion as for the entire Ozzy era, although that will soon change). Style wise, first, look me in the eyes and say out loud "Martin era Sabbath has no glam/AOR influences at all". Go on. Rrrright. It's not prominent in every track, but yes, there are sleazy Bon Jovisms in some of Martin's vocal lines (particularly some additional lyrics), and the production values and arrangements have a decidedly "radio-friendly hard rock" orientation overall; some of the songs themselves, and even some riffs, too. Love them or hate them, they're here; only a fool would deny their existence.

On the other hand, calling the Martin era as a whole "cock rock", or pretending it sounds nothing like Sabbath, is just taking the piss. Not just because it's derogatory, although that it is, but simply because those albums, probably best qualified as melodic hard/heavy overall, also do have plenty of metal as fuck songs (not glam/cock/[insert bullshit here]), almost all of which sound unmistakably Sabbath (closer to Dio era Sabbath than original line-up Sabbath, sure, but so what?!). First, the Martin era albums contain some of the most accomplished Sabbath songs and instrumentals built around Iommi eerie arpeggios, in direct continuation of what he was doing circa "Children of the Sea", or "Sleeping Village" for that matter (yes, on the first album). Also, while tracks like "The Shining", "Ancient Warrior", "Nightwing", "When Death Calls", "The Law Maker" and "The Battle Of Tyr / Odin's Court / Valhalla " may not be the crushing doom songs the former group praise them as, they're still nothing short of pretty fucking epic heavy metal songs. Love them or hate them, they're here; only a fool would deny their existence. If those are glam, then welcome to the Glam Archives, muthafuckas!


By the way, the poll closed over two weeks ago. I suppose it's cool to extend the thread's life as a discussion, but if some assume they can still vote... too bad, sorry (hi, Varth).

Honestly, this is a great post and good stab at taking a balanced point of view. I still disagree with a lot of it. Tony Martin-era albums have a lot of songs that sound unmistakably Sabbath? That's highly debatable for me, for a truckload of fans, a great number of accomplished musicians that were influenced by Sabbath and even for many Black Sabbath members themselves. This is a highly subjective subject matter it seems but I've bought every Sabbath record ever released, I listened to each of them as they came out and they don't sound like Sabbath to me. If they were unmistakably Sabbath, that would make a shitload of bands out there unmistakably Sabbath. Three quarter of the original lineup gone. Different song structures, different voice, completely different style of melody lines done by a guy who was heavily into funk and reggae more than metal (that's a fact related by Martin in interviews, not an insult) different guitar tone, different approach to riffing, jazz-influenced eclectic drumming replaced by radio-friendly hard rock straight skin pounding drowned in gut-puking reverb, the feeling of wildly experimenting gone... the list could go on!

Tony Iommi is a legend. We might call him the Michael Jordan of dark, ugly heavy as fuck metal. However, just because Jordan was a great athlete doesn't mean it will translate particularly well when he tries to play baseball. Likewise, just because Iommi is a master guitarist doesn't mean his game is radio-friendly hard rocking. Are there hints of his great talent on those records? Yes. But even when he tries to wink at the genuine Sabbath sound with that band, the result is about as convincing to me as if Jordan had brought a bunch of his baseball pals on the basketball court to face the Lakers.

Which brings me to the cock rock comment. I realize how controversial that sounded and how clear cut and extreme. This is mostly for effect. Just like when I say Justin Bieber is shit, I don't literally mean he is human excrement, complete with color, shape and smell. But yeah, there's expectations that come with carrying a band name. There's a legacy behind that name. These albums were destined for critical and commercial failure but honestly, I think it was Iommi's right to do the kind of music he felt like doing, even though I think the particular approach (hiring a bunch of hired guns and aiming for mass appeal) is terribly misguided. Using the Sabbath name for that was IMO profoundly dishonest. Iommi himself seems like he has struggled with the question of what is Black Sabbath several times. There's interviews all over the place that point to Iommi succumbing to record label pressure and labeling solo records as "Black Sabbath".

IMO, that has tarnished not only the legacy of one of the greatest bands of all time but also hurt several of these later projects, which cannot entirely be taken for what they are but have to suffer through comparisons they cannot live up to. At least, when you buy a FUSED, you take it for what it is.

I said just the high notes, when he 'screams'.

I know, and I still stand by what I said.

@Riffs:
You idealize Ozzy-era Sabbath way too much, man; to be precise, just about as much as some here idealize Martin-era Sabbath. Just as they defend "their" era as if all of it was along the lines of, say, "Headless Cross" (the song), you present "yours" as though any random track off off it was a "Killing Yourself to Live"! That's basically seeing them with rose-tinted glasses or with the "eyes of love" (not entirely sure this is an actual saying in English, but should be self-explanatory anyways). "My girlfriend has only qualities, and so does my favorite Sabbath era. Look at that bitch over there, with all her flaws, pfff! just like my least favorite Sabbath era" is what it is.

The Ozzy era is full of flaws, too. Sure, throngs of enthusiastic metalheads like to think of it as just "Symptoms of the Universe", "Children of the Grave" or especially "Black Sabbath" but, love them or hate them, the jazzy/bluesy/I'm-so-stoned,-let's-rock-it,-baby halves (corresponding, more often than not, with the just-decent-to-outright-mediocre parts) of the debut, 'Volume IV', 'Sabotage' and 'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath' are here, and so is the entirety of 'Technical Ecstasy' and 'Never say die'. Granted, 'Paranoid' and 'Master of Reality' are almost exclusively made of golden heavy metal, and there are plenty of tracks on par with them to be found on the other four Ozzy-era albums that are not near-complete failures. But considering the entire Ozzy run, that's about one third godly metal, another third sucky whatever and the last third good-to-meh miscellaneous. It's most definitely not "ugly heavy as fuck metal" through and through. Now compare that to Tony Martin's first run, and he's doing A-okay.

In any event, I'd say Dio's runs are the most consistent of the lot, both style and quality wise, by a long margin.

On a side note, Cozy Powell was a truly great drummer, with a style pretty different and much more metal than Bill Ward's (who did great things on many tracks, but also hindered the potential of some songs, especially the heaviest like "Children of the Grave", with his inadequate approach). I can see where you're coming from about the drumming for 'Eternal Idol', but both Powell albums have him rule the kit throughout, and it's far more subtle than mere metronome-like skin pounding, even if the drum sound is far from ideal, that I agree on. Headless Cross' title track is entirely built around the drum patterns, and it would have sucked with an actual AC/DC-like drummer (as it is, I'd call it a mini-"Heaven & Hell", the title track).


@Xlxlx vs metroplex: I stand by it too, Martin is closer to a slightly higher-pitched, slightly less wholesome Dio than any other singer. Even when he hits the high notes, I don't hear much resemblance with Arch either.

THANK YOU!

Now, about the "no Sabbath era is ideal save for Dio's" thing, I'd say that I agree, and also that I don't idealize the Martin albums. I just honestly like them a lot, but know that not every Martin song is gold. However, I was just trying to refute that "cock rock" label that Riffs slapped on the Martin records, something which has already been done (and I'm on good terms with Riffs now), so I don't see a need to keep discussing the subject at hand. I can't repeat enough how right you are about the whole thing though, even if I'm not nearly as critical of Ozzy era Sabbath as you, Legend.

@Xlxlx: Thanks, and just discussing some points, no worries. I'm cool with Riffs too, even if we partially disagree.

Actually, Tony Martin always sounded a bit like Don Dokken (obviously with a bit more edge in his voice) to me. I can imagine Tony Martin wailing through a song like "Dream Warriors", or Dokken singing a song like "Devil and Daughter".

Maybe it's just me, and I can see a slight similarity with John Arch.