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laxskinn
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:12 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:32 am 
 

Verd wrote:
For what concerns albums and songs ending with full stops, is it acceptable?

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/For ... 3540413065

http://forgottensoulblackmetal.bandcamp ... ves-demo-1

On their BandCamp, Forgotten Soul have put some full stops (and the capitalization is of course completely wrong, but I tried to put some order) but is this good on the site?

The consensus seems to be to leave full stops as the artist wrote it, even if incorrect, such as Bathorys "The Return......" or the Falkenbach albums that begins with full stops.

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Verd
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:37 pm
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:00 pm 
 

laxskinn wrote:
Verd wrote:
For what concerns albums and songs ending with full stops, is it acceptable?

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/For ... 3540413065

http://forgottensoulblackmetal.bandcamp ... ves-demo-1

On their BandCamp, Forgotten Soul have put some full stops (and the capitalization is of course completely wrong, but I tried to put some order) but is this good on the site?

The consensus seems to be to leave full stops as the artist wrote it, even if incorrect, such as Bathorys "The Return......" or the Falkenbach albums that begins with full stops.


Thank you! :)

Another thing I have been noticing for months is that many of the newest submitted Neo-Latin (french, spanish, italian etc.)-speaking bands have their albums and song titles all capitalized at the "English way", for example:

http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Ze ... osa/589743
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Kr ... ore/589350

Don't the submitters control the capitalization when adding the bands? Almost every new Spanish-speaking band has the wrong capitalization! :)

(ps. the RateYourMusic links in the first post of this thread don't work anymore, none of them, http://rateyourmusic.com/wiki/Italian%20Capitalization, http://rateyourmusic.com/wiki/French%20Capitalization etc.)

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Tlacaxipehualiztli
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:03 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:04 am 
 

Verd, the proper capitalization of the newest bands isn't the most important thing in whole universe I guess. Many of submitters don't even care about it. But believe me, it will be changed eventually, especially by Krister Jensen user, who is the worst enemy of wrong capitalization. The band links you provided are ok now.

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Verd
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:37 pm
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:07 am 
 

Tlacaxipehualiztli wrote:
Verd, the proper capitalization of the newest bands isn't the most important thing in whole universe I guess. Many of submitters don't even care about it. But believe me, it will be changed eventually, especially by Krister Jensen user, who is the worst enemy of wrong capitalization. The band links you provided are ok now.


Ok, thanks! ;)

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laxskinn
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Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:12 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:59 am 
 

Yeah, if you see incorrect capitalization you can report it. Capitalization in generally changed to be correct for the respective language rather than using the same as used by the artist (probably due to the fact that many artists simply hasn't put any thoughts into capitalization, so it might be writted differently on defferent occasions).

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Verd
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Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:37 pm
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:38 am 
 

I've got another definitely minor issue, but anyways..
For what concerns the location/place of origin of bands and artists I often see things like these:

Italy (Bordighera (Imperia), Ligury)
Fiavè/Ala (Trento), Trentino-Alto Adige
Morano Calabro/Frascineto/Castrovillari (Cosenza), Calabria
Italy (Gemona del Friuli (Udine), Friuli-Venezia Giulia)
Latina, Lazio / San Benedetto del Tronto (Ascoli Piceno), Marche

For what concerns Italy, when the country was unified/conquered by the Piedmontese in 1861, they decided to give to every town (since from the Roman ages to the XIX century Italy was divided and had dozens of equal or similar locality names) a unique name.
So if you write "Gemona del Friuli" or simply "Piacenza" (for Forgotten Tomb), you don't have to write the fraction, the main city, the region, the province and so on, since there's only one with that name.

Of course, in the U.S.A. or in Argentina there are other cities named after Venice, Milan, Modena, Rome and so on, but as long as in the artist's and the band's page there's written "Italy", there's really no need of three or four-row-long locations.
"San Benedetto del Tronto" is a locality that exists only in that place with that name, if you add its province and its region it's very redundant and room-occupying to me.

Very minor issue I know ahahah

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:19 am 
 

Well, we do try to stay consistent with these things. The general principle is 'City, Province'. Anything beyond that is unnecessary. Our policy is also to go by the nomenclature most common in the English language, also to retain some semblance of consistency. I agree that in many cases it's already redundant to include province, but I also suppose it doesn't hurt to be redundant in those cases in order to be as clear as possible.
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:09 am 
 

I think it can also help to give a better initial idea of where a band is located. Someone might not be familiar with the specific city, but maybe the region/state/province. Not to mention helpful for searches ("I want to find more thrash bands from my region!") or even compiling statistics.
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Snow Listener
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:13 am
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 am 
 

Came across this album Elend > Les Ténèbres du dehors. Why is the word Ténèbres capitalized? I noticed that in the additional notes, it says "La Vierge...", "Les Ténèbres..." I believe the nouns here should not be capitalized because they are not the first word. Just want to make sure my guess is correct before modifying the album.

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:29 am 
 

In French, you capitalize the initial word of the title and if this initial word is a definite article (le, la, les, l'), both the article and its noun and any adjectives or adverbs preceding the noun are capitalized (e.g. Le Grand Meaulnes; La Grande Illusion).
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:02 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
In French, you capitalize the initial word of the title and if this initial word is a definite article (le, la, les, l'), both the article and its noun and any adjectives or adverbs preceding the noun are capitalized (e.g. Le Grand Meaulnes; La Grande Illusion).

Nah deri, you need to capitalize the first word of the title (often "La" or "Les" like you said) and only the proper nouns if there's one.

The Forteresse album Thèmes pour la rébellion
The movie Mon oncle Antoine

Also the name of the months doesn't need a capital letter so the Forteresse album is actually Crépuscule d'octobre

A decent source in French: http://bdl.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?id=1497
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Derigin
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Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:47 pm 
 

I literally copied word for word from the French Manual of Style:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... talization

Quote:
the initial word of the title and:
if this initial word is a definite article (le, la, les, l'), both the article and its noun and any adjectives or adverbs preceding the noun are capitalized (e.g. Le Grand Meaulnes; La Grande Illusion)


http://french.about.com/library/writing ... titles.htm

Quote:
B. If the first word is an article or other determiner, the first noun and any adjectives that precede it are capitalized.
Trois Contes Un Cœur simple
Le Petit Robert Le Nouveau Petit Robert
Le Bon Usage Le Progrès de la civilisation au XXe siècle


EDIT: So I guess neither of us are wrong. It's a question of which case is valid here: the Imprimerie nationale method used by France and many other encyclopedias, or the Chicago Manual of Style method advocated by the province of Quebec.
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Antioch
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:38 pm 
 

!
van [Dutch/NLD] vs. Van [Flemish/BEL]

For those who care ('tis not much):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_(Dutch)#Collation_and_capitalisation (copy/paste the whole URL)
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Midnight Rider
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Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:07 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:32 am 
 

Concerning the lyrical theme(s) field,
what's the ideal capitalization when the word "themes" is present?

It's ok to standardize them this way?:
Epic Themes ~ Epic themes
Satanic Themes ~ Satanic themes

(I'm asking this due to the field being capitalized as "Lyrical themes:")

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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:43 am 
 

It isn't as strictly enforced as elsewhere, but lyrical themes only need the first letter capitalized. So "Satanic theme, et al"
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Antioch
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:15 am 
 

These bands have 'n/n'/n/-n- in their name, meaning and/in. If I'm not mistaken, they all should be lower case.
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Dre ... Lies/66180
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Fury_N_Grace/113276
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ahakay_N%27_Bror/99627 (not English, still a preposition according to the note)
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Dus ... awn/110487
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Red ... 3540268597
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ali ... land/80781
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Dee_N_Dee/3540351608 (not sure about this one)
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Dus ... 3540319836
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Rag ... enge/79660
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ton ... 3540322885
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Blo ... 3540286636
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Thu ... unch/63668
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Last edited by Antioch on Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Azmodes
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Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:12 pm 
 

Antioch wrote:
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ahakay_N%27_Bror/99627 (not English, still a preposition according to the note)

Assumed default for languages (for band names) is every word in uppercase, so that's fine.

Antioch wrote:
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Dee_N_Dee/3540351608 (not sure about this one)

Best to leave it, then.
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Krister Jensen
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Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:48 am
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Location: Russia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:25 am 
 

Need help with this one - Anaal Nathrakh's track "Tod Huetet Uebel" - is "Uebel" here a noun or adjective?

Hah, if pronounce it with Russian accent, it sounds like a foreigner trying to say some Russian foul words xD

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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:40 am 
 

That appears to be a reference to an archaic proverb. It's an adverb in this context, and "huetet" ("hütet" with the proper umlaut) is a verb.
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Krister Jensen
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:51 am 
 

Good to learn, thank you!

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droneriot
incelgender

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:50 am 
 

I PM'd Krister Jensen because he changed the Black Tribe song "Christlich Sozialer Untermensch" to "Christlich sozialer Untermensch", which may appear as the correct capitalisation. It is a reference to the German political party "Christlich Soziale Union", however, which always comes all capitalised. I don't know if there's a written rule for that, or if it's just a habit for political parties - it's just always written that way.
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Krister Jensen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:28 am 
 

Yeah, I had no idea about this.

Now, I've been wondering if Wulkanaz titles are OK concerning capitalization, they're all in Proto-Germanic. I personally feel it doesn't have to be that every word is capitalized, but is there anyone who could translate them? Image

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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:29 am 
 

drone, shouldn't there be a hyphen between the first two words? :P
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Sciera
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Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:44 am
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:21 pm 
 

Krister Jensen wrote:
Yeah, I had no idea about this.

Now, I've been wondering if Wulkanaz titles are OK concerning capitalization, they're all in Proto-Germanic. I personally feel it doesn't have to be that every word is capitalized, but is there anyone who could translate them? Image

Hardly, at least among this userbase. Even with my knowledge of Old High German and Old Norse I don't understand much. I would have to do major research for a full translation.
So, best you contact the band about it.

However, I'm not sure, but the song titles of the 2017 release rather look like a (more) modern Skandinavian language. Don't know which one, though.

@Azmodes: Technically yes: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christlic ... _in_Bayern
But I suppose if the band writes no hyphen we won't either.

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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:51 pm 
 

For exotic stuff like this, there's obviously rarely going to be standards we can use. Capitalising each word is the default solution.
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Krister Jensen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:10 pm 
 

Yeah, I've just been given an answer that it's OK as it is.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:23 am 
 

Azmodes, there should be - I can't believe I never realised that, had to look it up on Wikipedia. :o

But to echo what Sciera said, I think 15 years after the first release is a bit too late to correct one's own songtitles. :D Imagine Destruction going "Oh it's actually Total Disaster? We'll reprint all existing copies of Sentence of Death!!" :lol:
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laxskinn
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:08 am 
 

As far as I know proto-gremanic laguages were written with varoius runic alphabets, which doesn't have upper and lower case letters, so presumbaly there were no rules for capitalization.

I'd say that if it had been an older form of a single language it would make sense to capitalize it like the modern form, like with Arckanum that has lyrics in old Swedish. However, as proto germanic developed into several languages with different rules, I guess it makes sense to capitalize everything, though I don't like the look of it myself, as not even English starts every word with a capital. Personally I'd prefer capitalizing only the first word (and possibly names) as it seems less "intrusive" in a language that didn't use capitalization at all. I would even be fine with no capitals at all. That is usually how rune transcripts are written and would be most true to the original way of writing.

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Sciera
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:14 am 
 

laxskinn wrote:
As far as I know proto-gremanic laguages were written with varoius runic alphabets, which doesn't have upper and lower case letters, so presumbaly there were no rules for capitalization.

I'd say that if it had been an older form of a single language it would make sense to capitalize it like the modern form, like with Arckanum that has lyrics in old Swedish. However, as proto germanic developed into several languages with different rules, I guess it makes sense to capitalize everything, though I don't like the look of it myself, as not even English starts every word with a capital. Personally I'd prefer capitalizing only the first word (and possibly names) as it seems less "intrusive" in a language that didn't use capitalization at all. I would even be fine with no capitals at all. That is usually how rune transcripts are written and would be most true to the original way of writing.

Yes, when they were written down at all by native speakers, then in runes which have no distinction between caps and no caps.

So, I second this. I think it also looks much better to capitalize not more than the first letter of the title.

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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:42 am 
 

I think it's a bit quaint to discuss capitalisation for stuff like this, since what we want to apply, specifically, is not even "normal", text capitalisation, but title case, i.e. what Wikipedia refers to as composition titles. So we are essentially asking "How do/did/would the authorities on Proto-Germanic capitalisation treat the titles of their various publications?". :P And if we just go by "normal" cap'ing, that's hardly any less awkward as the concept of case isn't all that universal for (or even applicable to all) writing systems to begin with. What I am saying is that I wouldn't go through too many mental contortions to determine the "correct" way, unless there are obvious and wide standards. I guess it's more like we have a default way that applies first and then there's the particular cases of the big(ger) languages that have their own standards taking priority. Not there being a special standard somewhere for everything and we need to find it. If it's some lesser-known language that's lucky to have a codified orthography or even a written corpus at all, don't overthink it. Diachronically speaking, for language stages still recognisably close to their current forms, sure, let's apply the current standard unless something else is overwriting it, if you want to.

For the fallback/default, I'm fine with either each letter capitalised or just the first. Discogs does the former for everything, so I guess I was (not-so-)unconsciously going by their standard for cases where we have no guidelines given by linguistic authorities readily available.
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Krister Jensen
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:43 am 
 

Dutch guys, Antioch, could you take care of this album. Don't know if it's the standard Dutch.

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Antioch
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:02 pm 
 

Done. Yup, standard it is. Can't believe someone thought those were good song titles, though.
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Nyaricus
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:19 pm 
 

I just updated this, but as for an example for this thread, In the Woods... HEart of the Ages was missing the capital 'E' in heart for the album title and this is consistent with the vinyl reissues for the album title, and as seen here a bit blurry from the cellophane, you can see the 'E' is also capitalized for the song title. Someone who owns the album (I don't yet, some day...) might want to take a second look and see if there are any other unique spellings for them, on that album or otherwise.

edit: I appear to not know to how update it and just added a new version. Guess this one's a job for mods eh?
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Antioch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:30 pm 
 

You duplicated the two versions instead of updating them. Use the leftmost, pencil symbol for editing; use the plus symbol to add a new version. If in doubt, use the "report an error" button on the upper right corner to tell us what you're thinking. In this case, your edits/versions may not be the best ones to keep.

EDIT: Interesting update history you got there overall... not in a good way. :o
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Krister Jensen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:11 am 
 

It was me who first changed it to "HEart..." since it's how it is written in the booklet of the CD and the front cover.

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Antioch
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:50 pm 
 

Is it not a typo?
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Krister Jensen
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Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:48 am
Posts: 228
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:29 pm 
 

Hard to say, no idea what it's supposed to mean... But it was "HEart" everywhere on my CD.

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Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1318
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:36 pm 
 

It may be worth mentioning in the additional notes, but, then the cover art shows just that...

I dug up those two links from V1, long offline:
- https://web.archive.org/web/20061011233 ... =259&bid=5
- https://web.archive.org/web/20061111033 ... woods.html
The first is the label's page (HEart), the second is a semi-official page (Heart).

The iTunes version says "Heart":
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/heart ... d358672588

Anyway, I won't be back here for this anymore. Az will see this sooner or later. He'll take care of it.
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TheOneWhoWaits
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 12:46 pm
Posts: 31
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:51 pm 
 

I was reading this thread to get reassured that this place really is so pedantic that my reports aren't way off ... well maybe they are, but at least not on a different planet from everyone else's concerns. Anyway, I know that this question is half a year old:

Nyaricus wrote:
I just updated this, but as for an example for this thread, In the Woods... HEart of the Ages was missing the capital 'E' in heart for the album title and


According to some interview, the spelling originated as a wordplay on "heart" vs "art" (like, I guess, if someone had stylized it "heART") - but was intentionally left open to interpretation. As it is "open", it is not part of a word where spelling rules impose(d) the capital "E".
It could have been, and I thought so for years (sorry, "ages"!) it was, a wordplay on the only word that in the Scandinavian languages started with "HE". In the 18th century, the tetragrammatic LORD (not to be confused with just any other (land)"lord") was "HErren" in Danish/Norwegian and - I kid you not - "HERren" in Swedish.

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Spider_X
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 119
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:22 am 
 

Thank you for directing me to this post, Azmodes :) I am reading through all this now...
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