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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 7145
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:27 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
I would suggest, that the rules for Band Appeals forum sould mention clearly and explicitly, that users should not ask about non-metal side projects and their possible inclusion and also should not propose selected non-metal exceptions, since both belongs fully in the staff's desctetion. I was always a supporter of a very strict policy regarding inclusion of non-metal stuff on the page, and the growing number of such requests in recent weeks is imo quite disturbing, to say the least. Newest example:
viewtopic.php?f=27&p=2951173&sid=8fafb16bef2d23f29daf2b46f7f3ec37#p2951173

I hav proposed this some time ago and stince there was no reply to it yet, I wuld like to demonstrate the urgency and usefulness of ssuch updateby dmonstrating another post, tthat shows, the some users still have prolems with understanding it: viewtopic.php?f=27&p=2984380#p2984380

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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 2182
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:03 am 
 

Time to add 2022 as an option for releases. Or perhaps that's done automatically at a certain date?

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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 2182
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:04 pm 
 

Also, if a 23 minute digital only submission was rejected in 2019 for being "too makeshift/rough/unfinished", would the 2020 change in policy warrant a re-submission?

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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 2182
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:53 am 
 

Azmodes wrote:
Dembo wrote:
Is the site time rule for submitting a band which only acceptable release is from the day it's submitted removed (which would be a good thing in my view) or are not all moderators familiar with it?

Nothing has changed, so whatever you are referring to could be a mistake.

This keeps happening.

I've seen submissions be rejected and moderators on the forum defending those who "play by the rules", and I believe I've personally had a submission rejected (or perhaps it was a reply to a question about a future submission) with the motivation "let's wait until the date that's written" despite it already being available for full purchase. But then there's also these cases of accepting submissions the day before the officially written release date.

This makes it very confusing and difficult to know how to act in the future.

It would be much easier to either have the view that if an album on say Bandcamp is changed from "pre-order" to "buy digital album", it's considered released regardless of what the date on the Bandcamp page and other official promotion articles say, or strictly enforce the written-date-and-MA-site-time-policy.

I don't know whether every instance is a mistake, whether some moderators are less aware or have interpreted the policy different from others, whether some moderators simply don't care where others do, or whether some users get treated differently from others in either positive or negative ways by some moderators for personal reasons.

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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 2182
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:48 am 
 

Fourth post in a row here since early July without a reply, so I don't expect any now.

I submitted Alchemy of Flesh, including two already released singles with their own specific cover art, over 13 hours before the one that was accepted. But I suppose we're a team so it doesn't matter what rules there are and how many times those who follow the rules waste their time...

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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Location: Ob der Enns, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:22 am 
 

Apologies for that. Personally, I'd likely have approved your submission, but when there's digital singles involved singular judgement calls are often made, so I assume the moderator who handled it only had the full-length album in mind. I'll award you some points for your efforts and transfer the singles from your draft to the approved entry.
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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 2182
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:50 am 
 

I'm not even claiming it was handled and therefore one way or another rejected by a moderator, but rather not noticed until after the later submission was accepted. It'd be beneficial if there was an automatic notification to moderators when at the queue if there are several submissions with the same band name in it. Because I understand moderators not manually looking through the entire list to see if there's an earlier submission somewhere in it.

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 11196
Location: Ob der Enns, Austria
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:47 pm 
 

Dembo wrote:
It would be much easier to either have the view that if an album on say Bandcamp is changed from "pre-order" to "buy digital album", it's considered released regardless of what the date on the Bandcamp page and other official promotion articles say, or strictly enforce the written-date-and-MA-site-time-policy.

This is already the case. Again, if any moderator acts against that, they're either misinformed or making a mistake. Feel free to contact me if it happens again (or point me to past specific instances of this occuring).

Dembo wrote:
whether some moderators are less aware or have interpreted the policy different from others

Essentially this. This whole issue is such a tedious headache sometimes, particularly nailing down a good consistent and fair way of treating something as released, that not everyone is always on the same page about every single special case. We will keep trying to remedy that, though.

Dembo wrote:
It'd be beneficial if there was an automatic notification to moderators when at the queue if there are several submissions with the same band name in it.

There is, actually.
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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 2182
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:23 pm 
 

Azmodes wrote:
Dembo wrote:
It would be much easier to either have the view that if an album on say Bandcamp is changed from "pre-order" to "buy digital album", it's considered released regardless of what the date on the Bandcamp page and other official promotion articles say, or strictly enforce the written-date-and-MA-site-time-policy.

This is already the case. Again, if any moderator acts against that, they're either misinformed or making a mistake. Feel free to contact me if it happens again (or point me to past specific instances of this occuring).

Just to be clear, you're saying both of those are the case? In other words, a "Buy digital album" button seen on January 5th nullifies the written release date of January 10th so that the correct release date is found in the code data rather than on the regular page, as described in the Bandcamp guide thread?

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Azmodes
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
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Location: Ob der Enns, Austria
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:47 pm 
 

Sorry, I worded that badly. If it's out (publicly available in full), it's out, no matter what the date on Bandcamp says. The brute fact of something being right there to download and acquire has always nullified whatever made-up date is given. And the MA timezone policy really has no bearing on that.
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RunningWild_AT
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:39 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Austria
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:56 pm 
 

Dembo wrote:
This makes it very confusing and difficult to know how to act in the future.
[…]
I don't know whether every instance is a mistake, whether some moderators are less aware or have interpreted the policy different from others, whether some moderators simply don't care where others do, or whether some users get treated differently from others in either positive or negative ways by some moderators for personal reasons.


Nevermind Dembo, this happens all time and it´s getting worse every day.
There´s no consistancy or common sense with submissions anymore.

I´d like to add another example:
Image

See my rejected addition on the left side, added 9 hours before the accepted submission on the right side.
• Did they choose the earlier addition? - No. It was rejected.
• Did they choose the more accurate addition? - No. The opposite is the case:
Several old band members were missing, I had to add them manually into the accepted entry (see history if interested).

That´s just one example of dozens how MA staff is working nowadays.
Is there a new contributor policy like "be quick and sloppy" instead of "do research and submit most complete additions"?
Did I miss something on that behalf?

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TheGrimWombat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 2138
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:19 pm 
 

That's not all. Users snipe bands from the appeals forum all the time without regard for the "one week" spoken rule and trigger happy staff will accept them. There seems to be some kind of lack of communication, sometimes.
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PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 3276
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:21 am 
 

TheGrimWombat wrote:
That's not all. Users snipe bands from the appeals forum all the time without regard for the "one week" spoken rule and trigger happy staff will accept them. There seems to be some kind of lack of communication, sometimes.

There simply are too many bands being submitted to double-check everything with the appeals forum, sadly.

Feel free to flag reports for those sniped submission when you encounter them and we'll reject them.

I'll ask HB about a coded solution for this. Maybe an orange warning box mods see in the queue that tells us a band was appealed recently.
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TheGrimWombat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 2138
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:17 am 
 

PaganiusI wrote:
TheGrimWombat wrote:
That's not all. Users snipe bands from the appeals forum all the time without regard for the "one week" spoken rule and trigger happy staff will accept them. There seems to be some kind of lack of communication, sometimes.

There simply are too many bands being submitted to double-check everything with the appeals forum, sadly.

Feel free to flag reports for those sniped submission when you encounter them and we'll reject them.

I'll ask HB about a coded solution for this. Maybe an orange warning box mods see in the queue that tells us a band was appealed recently.


Well, it happened to me thrice within a day, overnight; and was basically just told "tough shit" while the user who did it gets the subs. I guess for me, I don't really care so long as the rules are being followed, but if not; then why punish the ones following the rules?
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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 11196
Location: Ob der Enns, Austria
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:36 am 
 

RunningWild_AT wrote:
[Fearancy]

Now first of all, I'm not saying mods choosing the "wrong" submission never happens. As much as we do try to weigh all the factors (time, submission completeness, previous rejections, etc.) against each other, we can never be 100% fair and there are no doubt things that could have been handled better in hindsight. I'm sorry that some users feel that mods are being haphazard and dismissive of their efforts. I can understand the sentiment, but it's not how we endeavour to conduct ourselves. However, the cited example is actually not as it appears to be and the earlier submission actually was the one that got approved. I think this is worth pointing out not only for the sheer truth of the matter itself, but also to draw attention to how the "Added on:" field is misleading in this case.

If you compare the modification history for both pages (rejected on the left, approved on the right)

Image

you'll see that the crucial timestamp, namely when the page's status was changed from draft to pending in the band queue (i.e. submitted), was 22:54 for RW's submission and 11:09 for odium's. In other words, odium's was submitted to the queue almost half a day earlier. Now, what is shown when you check the "Added on:" field is in fact the time it was approved for the actually listed entry (odium's) and the time it was last submitted to the queue before getting rejected for the rejected entry (RW's). I get that this is not exactly intuitively obvious, but it's how the software works (don't ask me for the why's and how's, I don't do any of the programming). Again, the timestamp next to "Added on:" does NOT correspond to the submission date in either case.

Something related to this is the particular issue of there not being an automatic check/warning box for duplicates in the queue when you submit something from your drafts as opposed to submitting it right away through the form on the main page. I think HB is aware of this, at least I remember talking to him about it at some point. In any event, it never hurts to manually check the queue beforehand.

RunningWild_AT wrote:
Is there a new contributor policy like "be quick and sloppy" instead of "do research and submit most complete additions"?

If there are multiple submissions in quick succession, there is a preference to pick the more complete one, if one stands out. If the difference is, say, more like hours (like with Fearancy), we generally go with first come, first serve unless there is such a tremendous difference between the submissions' comprehensiveness and completeness and/or it's evident that the quicker submission was done super lazily just to get in before everyone else. Ultimately, no simple answer here applicable to all scenarios, really, and whichever way we handle it there's bound to be some disgruntled users.

As for Pag's suggestion about coding something that cross-checks submission names with Appeals thread titles and displays a warning so mods can better check whether someone might be snatching a band, deliberately or not, that sounds like a good idea. HB has been made aware. :)
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TheGrimWombat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
Posts: 2138
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:54 pm 
 

I want to be clear that I was unaware of RunningWild's problem and really didn't know the ins and out of it, all I know is that I've had several bands that I brought up in the appeals forum that were submitted the day that I got answers from mods while I was sleeping before I could make a sub.

I'm not trying to accuse or stir up anything, just something that I found annoying at the time because of rules. Generally, I have had zero issues with moderators and have always found them to act in a patient, fair, and professional manner.
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RunningWild_AT
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:39 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Austria
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:02 pm 
 

Interesting to read, how Az proves MA to show wrong data fields, because he´s absolutely right. I was too late.
Interesting to learn, half a day too late might probably be considered as "tremendous difference".
Well, if so the creation year 2016 (mine) vs. 2021 (accepted entry) speaks for its own.
However, I´m happy Fearance finally made it to the Archives. Matter settled for me.

I´m not here to waste my time reading I´m a disgruntled user (which meanwhile is certainly true).
I´m here to contribute. Not only information in form of entering data, but contribute by showing a possible solution to fix many of the beforehead mentioned problems.
If this is the wrong place to post - feel free to move it to another thread or topic.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

► Description of problems
PaganiusI wrote:
There simply are too many bands being submitted to double-check everything with the appeals forum, sadly. [...]
I'll ask HB about a coded solution for this. Maybe an orange warning box mods see in the queue that tells us a band was appealed recently.

Pag´s idea is definitely good, but when I see this through the eyes of a database engineer, it´s not practicable.
I´m sure MA (the Encyclopedia) and the Forum are two standalone database systems, hardly connected to each other. (Likely for user names, probably not even band entries.)
So Pag´s suggestion to cross-checks submission names with Appeals thread titles is a too big effort to implement. Matching unstructured data (thread titles) with structured data fields is a tricky task.
Likely the reason for it´s not implemented yet.

However, I´d like to draw your attention to another, a more serious issue, namely DATA LOSS - the fright of all database developers.
Cause that is what we get everytime when a certain user doing a successful band appeal is not the initial submitter.

Keep in mind: Any band someone´s doing a band appeal for is a band that was rejected in the past. (or "disabled", which I will come back to lateron)
That likely means someone else already submitted good (structured) data for this band (like location, genre, discography, members and all those) at some point.
As for rejection this means the entry is jailed into the original submitter´s drafts.

So if another user comes up with a successful band appeal, he will enter the band anew and all previous data is buried (i.e. lost for MA) and has to be re-collected (if even possible) and re-entered again.
For me this is the worst case scenario: DATA LOSS plus blurred historical data re-collection plus potentially buggy re-entering plus a disgruntled initial submittor.
Not to forget the annoying issue of 'Users snipe bands from the appeals forum' as TheGrimWombat described.


► A possible SOLUTION - the RE-USE of DATA.
What if I point out a solution to solve all these problems (and many more you don´t even think of yet) in one single strike.
My idea is not only easy to understand but also comparatively easy to implement (from the point of a database developer) - just follow my thoughts:

Adding a new band - the duplicate check
Whenever a new band is added, the system checks for duplicate by the data couple of <Band name, Country> and eventually returns a warning like that:
Image
Very cool background check - just too restrictive in my thinking. This is where my solution approach steps in.

1. Just expand the search to ALL ever REJECTED bands, sleeping in some user´s draft bands.
If found, the system could tell
MA wrote:
This band {description} was rejected on Sep 21, 2018 for the following reason: {reason for rejection}
If you are sure to provide new data (like a new album that is Metal) then press 'transfer' to inherit the initial submission of user X.
After this you´ll find this band as a draft in your band submissions


2. Expand the search to ALL DISABLED bands sleeping in the database.
What is disabled? - Database engineers tend to never ever really delete laborious collected data unless it´s completely trash.
Valuable data (e.g. band plus huge discography) of a once approved band that was just victim of a "cleansing the archives" task is a perfect example for a disabled band.
Once valid, maybe hard collected data, just not fitting for M-A - however too good to throw it away. So what we do in such cases is to flag it "invisible" (or call it "deleted"), e.g. to disable the band´s recordset. - This means it´s not visible or accessable to anyone but the db admin and it appears to be deleted to everyone but actually isn´t.
Those bands should also be considered by system´s background search. So if any new decision basis shows up on a disabled band, their whole data can be restored into the user´s draft.
By changing just one marker. A simple sql-statement will do the trick.

3. Also search in recent submissions and prevent duplicates from the outset.

That´s pretty much it. A simple concept, easy implementation - and even better: No exception handling. Everything goes the proper way, following the same rules and policies as always.
When it´s not allowed to resubmit a band without revising the submission for the initial submitter, it´s still not allowed for someone who inherits the band entry.
Furthermore this would guarantee maximum transparency to anyone concerned why and when a band was rejected. Take over the recordset plus responsibilty and see yourself.
Without any person doing anything manually - just an automated system task. Imagine the huge impact to the Band Appeals forum - it would (almost) become obsolete!
No Moderator activity necessary to look up why a band was rejected, no waste of time to hear a band´s new album to judge whitelisted (or not) including the need to re-hear it again whenever the band is finally resubmitted again.
Everything just goes the regular way: A band´s new album is out (assume: Metal this time), so any user can request and take over the band´s dataset, seeing every bit of data ever entered.
A solid decision basis, not only for the user to decide wheter to resubmit the band for the new album, but even more for the moderators who only have to re-judge the band based on the new album cause they´ll see any decision and internal notes made earlier. - This kind of Incremental valuation could save a lot of time for moderators.
Remember: Data that once was lost (or hardly accessable) by concept.


► Effects
So let´s analyze the effects, run through some scenarios (normal and exceptional ones) and evaluate the pros and cons.

  • No changes when a new band is submitted. Business as usual.

  • The system catches a submission of a once rejected OR disabled band:
    The submitter is being made aware of this and takes over all band data.
      + Full transparency as one can see immediately(!) why and when the band was rejected so far.
      + All data fields, the whole discography entered so far, members, links - just everything ever entered shows up.
      + No waste of users´ time to create a Bands Appeal post, giving reasons for this and that.
      + No bothering of Moderators to look up the reason for rejection.
      + No waste of Moderators´ time to judge if the band could be whitelisted.
      + No waiting for possible whitelisting.
      + Instant availability of band data avoids "stealing" of (meanwhile) whitelisted bands by other users.
      + This would solve both Dembo´s and TheGrimWombat´s claimed issues on that matter.
      + Perfect immediate decision making for the user wheter the intended album/ep addition was already judged or not and wether the revision is worth a re-submit or not.
      + This would´ve solved my own issue (mentioned above), since Fearancy is sleeping in my drafts since rejection in 2016. The other (faster) user would take over my draft, add the new album and submit it. - Perfect collaboration, both happy.

  • Let´s assume the user decides to re-submit the band with the addition of the new album thinking it´s worth a re-judgment.
      + A one-time revaluation of the last added album to be made by moderators. A time-consuming task that previously the mere whitelisting would have required.
      + No cross-check with band appeals necessary.
      + Just one single judgment and in case the band is rejected again the band data will 'sleep' until another user maybe decides to resubmit for the next album.
      + However, this type of incremental valuation reduces the overhead for moderators to a minimum. Old, restored rejection notes plus hearing one new album is a solid basis and little effort to decide, compared to what it is now.
      + Perfect division of working points in case the band is accepted as of now. Every single contributor will get the points he deserves as the system now knows about anyone´s modification.
      + No exception handling: Counting modification lines for summing up user points will work as on any other submission.
      + The withholding of old releases (whether knowingly or unknowingly) would not be possible. - Imagine: A band was rejected for its 20 albums, genre Ambient, not acceptable.
      The user only knows the band by album #21 being clearly Black Metal, which makes them whitelisted. Will he add those 20 albums before? Guess not. Not a serious example, but just imagine Uruk-Hai (Aut).

  • Assume the user decides upon the transferred data not to re-submit the band.
      ± Nothing bad with it. The only unpleasant thing happened is the transfer from one to another user´s draft.
      - Ok, the initial user might wonder where his draft is gone. A notification message could inform about this.

  • Assume the user decides upon the transferred data not to re-submit the band AND deletes the draft.
      + Not bad either. The system marks it as "deleted" and the data will remain unassigned (or assigned to a special dummy user) until the next one claims it.

  • Assume someone is adding a completely new band for let´s say a digital single (or two). - Not enough to submit it right now, but they already announced a full-length.
      ++ This is where the reuse of data unfolds its full power. The first user to add the new full-length will take over all band data, inherit the digital single(s) and do the final submission.
      + Still a win/win situation for both contributors. Both will get their points, the later one wins the sub. No cause for anyone to complain.
      + No matter whatever reason prevented the first user from submission, his data will be considered as the second one cannot add a band that´s already added to the database, no matter where it sleeps or hides.
      + Isn´t that a nice imagination? The system collects data from maybe various users (let´s assume 2 digital singles) and automatically adds it to the recent full-length.
      Almost magically, without any manual interevention. That´s data reuse at its best.

To sum it up in one sentence:
If MA could avoid band duplicates not only for approved but for all ever entered bands, this could solve many problems and make the band appeals (almost) obsolete.
Or in other words: Let´s not only share/work together at approved bands but also for bands drafts.

I´d like to hear your own (or HB´s) assessment to this. Any wrong assumptions in my treatise?


Last edited by RunningWild_AT on Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Edgy Metal Noob Catchphrase Dispenser

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:27 am 
 

So in one of my drafts, I accidentally made a dupe of a demo and I don't know what to do. Can I just make another draft and try again or can I just delete the duplicate release?
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RunningWild_AT
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:42 am 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
So in one of my drafts, I accidentally made a dupe of a demo and I don't know what to do. Can I just make another draft and try again or can I just delete the duplicate release?

You cannot delete the duplicate yourself. - No problem, both your ideas are acceptable.
Personally I´d rather stick to the draft and whenever you decide to submit the band, tell about the dupe in the 'submission notes'. Moderators will delete it for you. No problem at all.
But you can also add another draft (and delete the old one) if that feels better for you. System won´t prevent the addition of duplicate bands as of now.

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Antioch
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Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1758
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:27 pm 
 

Can I resubmit a rejected band that's not blacklisted?
There are no new releases but the rules have changed since (as regards digital releases).
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HellBlazer
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:48 am
Posts: 2119
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:09 pm 
 

RunningWild_AT wrote:
Interesting to read, how Az proves MA to show wrong data fields


It does not show the "wrong" data, it works exactly as intended. Once a band is accepted, 99.9% of visitors don't care at all about when its draft was created or when it was submitted to the queue. What matters is when it was added to the public site, so that's what's shown. If the other dates are needed for whatever reason, they're in the history.


Quote:
Pag´s idea is definitely good, but when I see this through the eyes of a database engineer, it´s not practicable.
I´m sure MA (the Encyclopedia) and the Forum are two standalone database systems, hardly connected to each other. (Likely for user names, probably not even band entries.)
So Pag´s suggestion to cross-checks submission names with Appeals thread titles is a too big effort to implement. Matching unstructured data (thread titles) with structured data fields is a tricky task.
Likely the reason for it´s not implemented yet.


Uh... I mean, sure, the forum is in a separate database, but it's not like it's an insurmountable problem to just open another database connection. The matching might not be 100% perfect, but it's easy enough to do and might be a useful solution for the time being.


Quote:
Long suggestion


Hmm, well, there are some interesting ideas there, though it's not necessarily as simple as you think.

We can't just let anyone grab another user's drafts, that would cause... a lot of drama. There would need to be rule some where the draft has to be abandoned for X time, maybe? And even then... I see that you originally created the draft for the band discussed above all the way back in 2016. Would you really have been satisfied if someone else had taken it from you and submitted it themselves?

I can certainly see the advantage for end users: it would save a lot of time for submissions. For moderators, well... it would be cool to have all the submission history under a single entry, yes. But the blacklist exists for a reason: We don't want users submitting the same band over and over again. This sounds like it would just make it easier for people to do just that. I'm not sure if you're actually suggesting we do away with the blacklist completely, but it kinda sounds like it in your example, if someone can just decide to resubmit on their own once a new album is out? That's a reasonable use case, but unfortunately we can't trust people to be reasonable like that with such a feature. The current blacklisting message literally says not to try to circumvent the blacklist and to ask on the forum instead, or the user will be banned. People stilll try to submit blacklisted bands by slightly changing the spelling all the time anyway.

And if we do keep the blacklist and appeals system, well... I guess it's nice to re-use data, but it's not a huge change to the way things are currently done.

So yeah, this would need new policies and changes to make sure it doesn't actually just create more work. It would be really cool to have more possibilities for collaboration in draft, maybe even push things further and have a way to make certain drafts public so they can be collaborated on. But that's a lot more work to implement. We'll give it some thought.

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HellBlazer
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:48 am
Posts: 2119
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:10 pm 
 

Antioch wrote:
Can I resubmit a rejected band that's not blacklisted?
There are no new releases but the rules have changed since (as regards digital releases).


That seems fine.

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Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1758
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:17 am 
 

Thanks, HB.
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odium
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:32 pm
Posts: 215
Location: Lithuania
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:10 am 
 

If a band has the only digital album, which could be downloaded track-by-track only from SoundCloud (and no other official profile, except for YouTube streaming), is it considered as acceptable submission? In this case:

https://soundcloud.com/sutonofficial/sets/suton-suton

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HellBlazer
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:48 am
Posts: 2119
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:07 am 
 

odium wrote:
If a band has the only digital album, which could be downloaded track-by-track only from SoundCloud (and no other official profile, except for YouTube streaming), is it considered as acceptable submission? In this case:

https://soundcloud.com/sutonofficial/sets/suton-suton


Yes, Soundcloud is a valid digital service, as long as the band as enabled downloads for the album (in some cases, it's streaming-only, so that wouldn't be acceptable).

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RunningWild_AT
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:39 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Austria
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:47 pm 
 

Thanks HB, for taking a thorough look at my idea.

HellBlazer wrote:
We can't just let anyone grab another user's drafts, that would cause... a lot of drama.

I´m sure you´re right for some users. But is it really a drama?
Why not expand collaboration from approved bands to draft bands?
Imo not that big of a difference for contributors.
Users share their information to others anyhow, data is constantly added, deleted and changed and it´s fine for (almost) anyone.

Draft bands could be still hidden from other user´s eyes to avoid systematic acquisition.
But imo at this very moment when a user intends to save the band, he could be given full (logged) responsibility to this dataset.
Maybe I´m dreaming of a perfect world (by thinking draft contributions to a public database are no private property), but I simply love the idea of cooperating from the scratch.

HellBlazer wrote:
I see that you originally created the draft for the band discussed above all the way back in 2016.
Would you really have been satisfied if someone else had taken it from you and submitted it themselves?

Yes. That would fit perfectly to me. Their band entry was rejected anyhow back then and waiting for another album to qualify being metal enough (if ever).
So if another user grabs my draft it´s perfect for both sides. My hard collected data isn´t lost (history will know) and the other one adds the new album and gets the sub for being faster, so no big deal.
By dimensions better than what the situation is now:
At the time my old rejected addition still vegetates in my drafts without any benefit for anyone.
Still I tend not to delete it thinking someday I should compare band members for additional information (birth year, location and alike) I probably might collected back then.
Indeed this is what I actually did, to transfer some old members with active periods and roles from my rejected draft to the new entry. Data that otherwise would be lost.

HellBlazer wrote:
But the blacklist exists for a reason: We don't want users submitting the same band over and over again.

Ah ok. Of course I cannot estimate the frequency of these cases at all, you definitely know best yourself.
You got me right, I was thinking to maybe get rid of the blacklist at all, just considering reasonable use.
Dreaming incremental valuation (e.g. new album) could reduce the overhead for moderators to a minimum as they immediatly see all previous Moderation notes and decisions.
However, attempts to circumvent the blacklist (by using a different spelling) are not being handled either way (and likely cannot be handled automatically).

Get me right, it was just a suggestion - you surely know better on how much work to implement.
If status quo or any workaroud fits better, just forget about my idea.
I just naively thought that the concept, which works great for approved bands, could even be extended to DRAFT, REJECTED, SUBMITTED, maybe even DISABLED bands without much exeption handling.

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HellBlazer
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:48 am
Posts: 2119
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:51 pm 
 

RunningWild_AT wrote:
Get me right, it was just a suggestion - you surely know better on how much work to implement.
If status quo or any workaroud fits better, just forget about my idea.
I just naively thought that the concept, which works great for approved bands, could even be extended to DRAFT, REJECTED, SUBMITTED, maybe even DISABLED bands without much exeption handling.


Yeah, I don't think it's that simple... but it would be nice to have more potential for collaboration, sure. We'd have to give it some thought, and it's far from the highest priority at the moment, but we'll see.

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GraveWish
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:49 am
Posts: 1396
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:16 pm 
 

Hello,
I am actually trying to find the thread that explain "what is a valid single' that might get a band accepted. Can someone point the thread out? Thanks.

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MetalCuresHeadaches
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:35 pm
Posts: 1150
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:35 am 
 

I just want to inquire on where the site falls on nudity? See this page; the whole gimmick here is that she's completely nude in every image released. The one I added is even pulled directly from the cover. I'm not sure if the site really cares or not, but I figured I'd ask to be safe. If needed, I can just crop her down to a headshot.
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GraveWish
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:49 am
Posts: 1396
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:13 pm 
 

Hello, if a band released a demo then changed name and professionally re-recorded the demo and released it as an EP under the new band name. Should a new page be created for the new band name or how will you deal with that?

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KingSpooky
The Man, The Machine, The Legend

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:24 pm
Posts: 4495
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:19 pm 
 

There are occasional exceptions to the 5-minute limit on digital singles and demos, but there's less of a chance that they would be accepted since there's only so much that you can tell from a few minutes of music. Bands whose discographies are under 5 min. would likely only be accepted on rare occasion, but the 5-minute thing isn't 100% set in stone. I'm not sure the answer to the other questions here, but alerted other moderators to the open questions here. Hopefully an answer will come soon.

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PDS
The Folk One

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 pm
Posts: 1783
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:28 pm 
 

MetalCuresHeadaches wrote:
I just want to inquire on where the site falls on nudity? See this page; the whole gimmick here is that she's completely nude in every image released. The one I added is even pulled directly from the cover. I'm not sure if the site really cares or not, but I figured I'd ask to be safe. If needed, I can just crop her down to a headshot.


We don't purport to be child-friendly. Also, it's just boobs. If she wants that to be all the promo than so be it. This site has artistic depictions of nuns getting fucking by Baphomet and tons of gore-related images. Some boobs is really nothing.
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HellBlazer
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:48 am
Posts: 2119
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:38 pm 
 

GraveWish wrote:
Hello, if a band released a demo then changed name and professionally re-recorded the demo and released it as an EP under the new band name. Should a new page be created for the new band name or how will you deal with that?


If it's completely re-recorded, then I would say that yes, a submission under the new name could be made. But if it was a simple re-release of the same material under the new name, then they would need to wait until they have original material.

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GraveWish
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:49 am
Posts: 1396
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:54 pm 
 

Hello,
I am always not quite sure how to treat multiple vinyl/cassette versions. Can someone check for example this release https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/I ... Her/912397 and tell me what can be merged/modified and why. Also can metal knight rank delete duplicate albums?
Thanks.

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 949
Location: Unknown
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:51 pm 
 

Hello.
Could someone delete these links? They still appear when you search for the words they have, but they won't redirect you anywhere, only to a 404 page. Thanks.

https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/R ... ilk/291662
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/T ... ock/619506
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/I ... lit/324204
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/I ... xia/314014
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/M ... ssy/596713

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 949
Location: Unknown
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:39 am 
 

Hi again. Is there anyone here who knows Indonesian? If so, then, you could probably lurk through this band's facebook page, in order to see if everything's alright. Add unlisted musicians, add more useful information and so on. Thanks:
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Several/3540482170
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063936930954

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Kennermahn
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:36 am
Posts: 616
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:58 pm 
 

Hello
I emailed the band Osiris regarding their lineup because it seemed a bit confusing. They told me that the current bassist is Federico Rodríguez Salcedo and that the former bassist is "a collaborating musician as a part of the band" since 2021. What I did is I set him as a former member in the lineup and wrote about his status in the additional notes.

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Osiris/3540499084

Is that the correct approach?

Thanks

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 949
Location: Unknown
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:16 pm 
 

Hello.
Someone who knows or is fluent in Korean could navigate through this band's FB page and see if there's information about the band's line-up and other important things. Thanks.

https://www.facebook.com/InsaneRattles
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/In ... 3540478554

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 949
Location: Unknown
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:36 am 
 

Another link that needs to be deleted. I've stumbled upon it by searching for "Ganza" (song title).

We are sorry, the album Disfigured_Human_Mind - No_Happy_Faggots,_No_Happy_Shit​.​.​._Only_Noise_Grind_is_Real​!​!! you were looking for could not be found. Perhaps the entry has been deleted, or is still pending moderation approval.

If you followed a link from an external site, it was most likely out of date. If you followed a link from within the site and believe this is an error, please report the dead URL below immediately. (Make sure to tell us where you clicked to end up on this page.)
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/D ... %21/635281

Thank you for your comprehension.

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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 2182
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:28 am 
 

Are Bandcamp pages like these official? They seem odd in that the cover art is usually some band photo or logo, and the description to the right being quite amateurish:

"Compilasi Streaming And promotion Black Metal Indonesia Song"
https://sabdopatiproject.bandcamp.com/music
https://www.metal-archives.com/labels/Embek_Ireng/47483

"Labels for data backup and promotional media for Indonesian Black Metal & gothic songs.."
https://legionhitamnusantara.bandcamp.com/music
https://www.metal-archives.com/labels/L ... tara/58042

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