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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3902
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:25 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
I believe AOC on the basis that this administration has given me absolutely no reason to doubt those claims, time and time again. I'll believe those people are receiving humane treatment when I actually see it, not before.


An administration that is disputing that children are entitled to toothbrushes and soap. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48710432

And I've seen people online actually arguing that "these aren't our children so it's not our problem". It's absolutely insane.

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 7905
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:28 pm 
 

I read about that the other day.

I said it already, I'll say it again; fuck the people responsible for this. Hope they all fucking burn.
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droneriot wrote:
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 649
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:37 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
I believe AOC on the basis that this administration has given me absolutely no reason to doubt those claims, time and time again. I'll believe those people are receiving humane treatment when I actually see it, not before.

Okay, the Trump Administration are, in fact, lying pieces of shit, but have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, AOC is also a lying piece of shit? Based purely on the simple basis that this is politics, where nearly everyone within the field is suspect of being a lying piece of shit?

Xlxlx wrote:
henkkjelle wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
All we have is hearsay. What I want to happen now is some kind of investigation into these camps, and to truly get to the bottom of what's going on there. But until then, I'll reserve my judgment.


So you're just reserving judgment in the face of countless reports of the abysmal living conditions at those camps?

Also this. This isn't the first time we hear about this, not by a longshot, and it won't be the last either.

We've always heard of how crowded the camps are, how individuals are kept in cages, or how questionable the bathroom situation is, but AOC is claiming that the camps are borderline torture chambers ran by sadistic monsters. That's a vastly different claim, and it is that claim that I will reserve judgment on. Again, I want to see these claims fully investigated.

droneriot wrote:
I have no idea who SuperVeji4 is so I'm not making this a personal accusation, but it seems most of the time when people reserve judgement it's only when something doesn't fit their world view, and it usually ends up something like this:

"Migrant accused of rape" - people start googling where they can volunteer for the firing squad
"Donald Trump accused of rape" - it's innocent until proven guilty, guys, you shouldn't pre-judge

Wow, Captain Fallacious Strawman strikes again!

That's quite a false dichotomy you've created there. You're telling me it's not possible that I'm an individual who would apply the "innocent until proven guilty" mentally to both situations?

henkkjelle wrote:
And I've seen people online actually arguing that "these aren't our children so it's not our problem". It's absolutely insane.

Yea, that's kind of fucked.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8800
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:38 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Wow, Captain Fallacious Strawman strikes again!

That's quite a false dichotomy you've created there. You're telling me it's not possible that I'm an individual who would apply the "innocent until proven guilty" mentally to both situations?

Maybe read a post before responding. I respond to henkkjelle and specifically point out that I'm speaking in general and not referring to you because I have no idea who you are (I generally don't memorise usernames, I'm no HeavenDuff with my whole apartment plastered with print-outs of metal-archives posts with spreadsheets connecting them), but you read it and seem to think "oh he says he's not talking about me, he must be talking about me." Okay, yeah, whatever.
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korgull
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:53 am
Posts: 886
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:50 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
I don't know if using Vox to prove another newspaper has no credibility will be beneficial to this (or any) discussion.


I think the article was accurate, illustrated my point well, and already contained a couple links I was going to look up and maybe post anyway.

Not sure if any newspaper would be considered acceptable and reputable to everyone at this point. I mean, here is basically the same story in the New York Times, if that looks any better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/us/p ... order.html

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:54 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
How to Really Trigger the Libs 101: Rule #34
Intentionally misrepresent every single actual argument until there's nothing left but straw, then set it alight with a kitschy, dismissive aphorism.

:lol:
Nice try DD, but everything I've stated is literally what you did to severzhavnost's post. I mean, I really don't know how you could even deny it since your statements are literally right there for everyone to see.

I stated that Washington Examiner, NYP and Breitbart are not very good sources, same goes for places like Daily Kos, Natural News or even Think Progress on the "left."

I stated that he used the bit about AOC being loud as evidence that she is not trustworthy. This is a non-sequiter, unless... I'm so sorry if I triggered you by saying that discrediting the content of what a woman is saying by calling her loud and brash is sexist. We can discuss why this is the case if you'd like.

I stated that using an article that makes no claims that the entire story was BS to make the claim that the entire story is BS is... ridiculous. Which it is.

And yet you dismissed everything as a leftist Trump card. lol.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
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Last edited by darkeningday on Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:54 pm 
 

korgull wrote:
I think the article was accurate, illustrated my point well, and already contained a couple links I was going to look up and maybe post anyway.

Not sure if any newspaper would be considered acceptable and reputable to everyone at this point. I mean, here is basically the same story in the New York Times, if that looks any better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/us/p ... order.html

Yeah nothing wrong with the specific article, there's not much one can do wrong anyway when criticising newspapers that treat Trump tweets like actual valid news. What I meant was that a site like Vox that spent the last years building itself a reputation as the "Breitbart of the left" (clickbait hyperbole on steroids) could just as easily lead to instant dismissal based on the source the same way Breitbart or any of its imitators would, regardless of the content of the article.
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korgull
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:53 am
Posts: 886
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:02 pm 
 

Gotcha. I wasn't fully aware of their reputation. I just read the article to make sure it stated the info I was searching for.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:04 pm 
 

I always thought Chapo Trap House had the decorated distinction of being known as "the left-wing Breitbart?"
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:17 pm 
 

Well, the general idea of publishing nothing but editorials with lots of "the end is nigh" and "will somebody please think of the children?" but trying to disguise them as genuine news articles is copied a lot in recent years, but I think Vox is the most famous among them (though I dunno the actual traffic data, just going by visibility while browsing.)
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 649
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:05 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
How to Really Trigger the Libs 101: Rule #34
Intentionally misrepresent every single actual argument until there's nothing left but straw, then set it alight with a kitschy, dismissive aphorism.

:lol:
Nice try DD, but everything I've stated is literally what you did to severzhavnost's post. I mean, I really don't know how you could even deny it since your statements are literally right there for everyone to see.

I stated that Washington Examiner, NYP and Breitbart are not very good sources, same goes for places like Daily Kos, Natural News or even Think Progress on the "left."

Fair enough.

darkeningday wrote:
I stated that he used the bit about AOC being loud as evidence that she is not trustworthy. This is a non-sequiter, unless... I'm so sorry if I triggered you by saying that discrediting the content of what a woman is saying by calling her loud and brash is sexist. We can discuss why this is the case if you'd like.

Her being "loud" (whatever that means) was not presented as evidence of her not being trustworthy, but evidence on the possibility that maybe she was just being a belligerent idiot; again, perhaps performing a form of grandstanding. All in an attempt to portray herself as the "hero that exposes the ugliness of this world," when really she was just being annoying. Similar to when Jorge Ramos caused that scene at a press conference with Trump in which he was kicked out, and Ramos went ahead and claimed that he was kicked out for standing up to Trump, when really he was kicked out for being a belligerent idiot.

darkeningday wrote:
I stated that using an article that makes no claims that the entire story was BS to make the claim that the entire story is BS is... ridiculous. Which it is.

The article severzhavnost posted claimed that AOC was over-exaggerating the bad conditions of the camps. To which you simply brushed aside because the source is biased and, I'm assuming, you're working under the automatic assumption that AOC is telling the truth simply because it's AOC.

darkeningday wrote:
And yet you dismissed everything as a leftist Trump card. lol.

Perhaps I dismissed it because you have made some alarmist posts before that reach some really weird conclusions.


droneriot wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Wow, Captain Fallacious Strawman strikes again!

That's quite a false dichotomy you've created there. You're telling me it's not possible that I'm an individual who would apply the "innocent until proven guilty" mentally to both situations?

Maybe read a post before responding. I respond to henkkjelle and specifically point out that I'm speaking in general and not referring to you because I have no idea who you are (I generally don't memorise usernames, I'm no HeavenDuff with my whole apartment plastered with print-outs of metal-archives posts with spreadsheets connecting them), but you read it and seem to think "oh he says he's not talking about me, he must be talking about me." Okay, yeah, whatever.

So let me get this straight: You make an obvious insinuation about me, I point out said insinuation, you deny there is an insinuation, even though the insinuation is obviously there because, "hey, I said I wasn't talking about you."

In other words: "I'm not accusing SuperVeji4 of anything but, anyone who "reserves judgement" (which is what I said) usually have a set worldview, and it usually ends up in a racist Pro-Trump stance. But again, I'm not talking about SuperVeji4, I swear."

I don't know, seems like you're just trying to be clever here...

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8800
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:07 pm 
 

Things that are obvious in your mind are not necessarily obvious in the real world.
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 649
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:12 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Things that are obvious in your mind are not necessarily obvious in the real world.

"OH NO! droneriot pulls the gaslighting card! How clever! What will SuperVeji4 do now?!"

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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9205
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:14 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
I always thought Chapo Trap House had the decorated distinction of being known as "the left-wing Breitbart?"


Nah, Chapo is the r/the_donald of the left. Or so they say, as I'm sure you know. Really it's just a festering hole of toxicity, tankies, and children shitposting twitter screenshots.

Also everybody there is a lib except me.
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severzhavnost
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2496
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:24 pm 
 

@darkeningday: “I stated that he used the bit about AOC being loud as evidence that she is not trustworthy. This is a non-sequiter, unless... I'm so sorry if I triggered you by saying that discrediting the content of what a woman is saying by calling her loud and brash is sexist. We can discuss why this is the case if you'd like.”

SuperVeji4 already shot this down this very well, but I’ll explain myself too. AOC being loud and brash does not cast doubt on her credibility. The counter-claims from BP agents involved, that she didn’t even bother to go in and take the tour, instead relying on possibly distorted second-hand stories - that's what makes AOC’s testimony suspect.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:01 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
I always thought Chapo Trap House had the decorated distinction of being known as "the left-wing Breitbart?"


Nah, Chapo is the r/the_donald of the left. Or so they say, as I'm sure you know. Really it's just a festering hole of toxicity, tankies, and children shitposting twitter screenshots.

Also everybody there is a lib except me.

I mostly just lurk for the pod, which has been my go-to politics pod along with Citations Needed and Majority Report for over a year and a half. Got my first ever Reddit account 3 months ago because Virgil confused Odysseus with Oedipus which sent me up the fuckin' wall.

There are too many kids there, we need an age culling ASAP. Would also cure the lib problem by default.


severzhavnost wrote:
SuperVeji4 already shot this down this very well, but I’ll explain myself too. AOC being loud and brash does not cast doubt on her credibility. The counter-claims from BP agents involved, that she didn’t even bother to go in and take the tour, instead relying on possibly distorted second-hand stories - that's what makes AOC’s testimony suspect.

Then why did you go out of your way to say she was "flipping out upon arrival, yelling and screaming at people?" Seemed a really odd thing to focus on.

I'd have skipped the pre-planned tour and gone straight for one-on-one conversations too. Any reasonable person would have, as going on a carefully predetermined sight-seeing tour to inspect the conditions in a prison complex is fucking idiotic, how is this not common sense? Would you also take Kim Jong-un's guided tour of NK to ensure he's treating everyone in his country properly? Ridiculous.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 1325
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:58 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
I have no idea who SuperVeji4 is so I'm not making this a personal accusation, but it seems most of the time when people reserve judgement it's only when something doesn't fit their world view, and it usually ends up something like this:

"Migrant accused of rape" - people start googling where they can volunteer for the firing squad
"Donald Trump accused of rape" - it's innocent until proven guilty, guys, you shouldn't pre-judge


I was initially skeptical on the magnitude of these atrocities because Morrigan did not post any pictures, but only twitter posts. Here are the pictures that I could find. From what I can see, it's bad, but I cannot see this being an issue that citizens of this country will take too seriously. Even if this is "the worst of the worst" in terms of outcomes this nation produces domestically, things are still pretty fucking bad for many citizens of this country. We have a shitton of homeless people that are veterans who go days without eating/showering, other people working 40+ hours a week to end up living out of their cars. There's people who have no doctors in counties that they live in, and people that are six-figures deep in debt simply for having a medical condition. There's people who never have time to see their kids because they have no time to be a fucking parent, only time to be an employee. Mothers who plop a baby out one day, only to go to work the next. And many of those same people bring their kid to an underfunded shithole of a "school" to be educated by some teacher who lives on fucking food stamps.

This might seem like some sort of whataboutism, but seriously- we're all expecting people to actually care about the well being of migrants when these are the conditions they are faced with? This nation has descended into dog-eat-dog since free market cucks took this shit over in the 80's, and there's little community with no compassion.

The thing I like about AOC is that she's fucking consistent, just like Bernie, and her care for all people is incredibly noble. We need more people like her in government, because government will make disastrous decisions when it's ran by careless ass holes. But we gotta fix our problems at home first to get anyone to give a remote fuck about these issues. She talks about people in these camps being dehumanized and treated like animals- well, seems to me like this entire country is based off of dehumanization. People aren't people in this country, they're consumers, or "human capital", or -even better- competition. We're all just another fucking number to punch a clock and cash out, slamming everyone over the fucking head just to make sure we're the ones punching the clock with the highest return. Need mental health help, affordable housing, good public schools, healthcare, or time with the family? "You aren't going to get me to pay for that!" said the lot of pro-business lunatics. How can we treat these people like humans if we cant even see the humanity in ourselves?
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9762
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:40 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Good chance the whole story is BS. Border Patrol agents on scene report AOC flipping out upon arrival, yelling and screaming at people, then refusing to even accompany her fellow Congresspeople on the tour of the facility, and intentionally misrepresenting some of the experiences of migrants housed there.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... -witnesses

Washington Examiner eh? AKA those racist fuckheads who fabricated the stories about the prayer rugs? Fuck right off.

You (and SuperVeji) are so fucking transparent.

Casting doubt on AOC's testimonies despite ample corroboration by other congresspeople. Saying they have no evidence despite the fact that THEIR PHONES WERE CONFISCATED (tell me, why would a guard, who was warned in advanced of congressional visit, who had ample time to prepare, who would have nothing to hide, would do that, hmm?) and that there was, in fact, evidence (some managed to still sneak in a few pics), documented over a great variety of news sites (but I guess they're all liberal media fake news right?), despite AOC having no history of repeatedly and deliberately lying through her teeth but the Trump administration having a list of instances of that longer than the Wall of China ("both sides are the same" though right?), despite repeated instances of racists and misogynistic social media posts by Border Agents aimed at migrants and AOC herself respectively, showing their utter contempt, despite the fact that a Trump lawyer herself didn't do much denial and even said the locked up children are not entitled to soap, and Trump's own rebuttal to this was to say "if they aren't happy they can just go back"...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... or-general
https://globalnews.ca/news/5458963/trum ... detention/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/us/p ... ntion.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48842434

Nevermind that. It's probably all fabricated by leftist congressmen and women who are just trying to win political points.

Unorthodox wrote:
Ok lol I'll stand corrected on that. Either way, the colloquial use of the words "concentration camps" implies something different.

Almost as if I had deliberately pre-emptively debunked this horseshit so we wouldn't waste our time but why do I even bother

Also your post above is pretty insulting, not gonna lie. "Why can't we care about this when other bad things happen, oh well, guess that's that" is some ridiculous and disingenuous whataboutism.

henkkjelle wrote:
An administration that is disputing that children are entitled to toothbrushes and soap. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48710432

Image
Migrants in US detention centres are treated worse than hostages kept by Somali pirates and the Taliban.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:07 am 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
But we gotta fix our problems at home first to get anyone to give a remote fuck about these issues.

Problems at home... The camp visited is in Texas. They didn't fly to Nauru or Libya to see migrant camps, they visited one of camps on U.S. soil. How can it get any more "at home" than that?
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 649
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:18 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
severzhavnost wrote:
Good chance the whole story is BS. Border Patrol agents on scene report AOC flipping out upon arrival, yelling and screaming at people, then refusing to even accompany her fellow Congresspeople on the tour of the facility, and intentionally misrepresenting some of the experiences of migrants housed there.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... -witnesses

Washington Examiner eh? AKA those racist fuckheads who fabricated the stories about the prayer rugs? Fuck right off.

You (and SuperVeji) are so fucking transparent.

Casting doubt on AOC's testimonies despite ample corroboration by other congresspeople. Saying they have no evidence despite the fact that THEIR PHONES WERE CONFISCATED (tell me, why would a guard, who was warned in advanced of congressional visit, who had ample time to prepare, who would have nothing to hide, would do that, hmm?) and that there was, in fact, evidence (some managed to still sneak in a few pics), documented over a great variety of news sites (but I guess they're all liberal media fake news right?), despite AOC having no history of repeatedly and deliberately lying through her teeth but the Trump administration having a list of instances of that longer than the Wall of China ("both sides are the same" though right?), despite repeated instances of racists and misogynistic social media posts by Border Agents aimed at migrants and AOC herself respectively, showing their utter contempt, despite the fact that a Trump lawyer herself didn't do much denial and even said the locked up children are not entitled to soap, and Trump's own rebuttal to this was to say "if they aren't happy they can just go back"...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... or-general
https://globalnews.ca/news/5458963/trum ... detention/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/us/p ... ntion.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48842434

What in the hell am I saying that is so controversial? You frantically post links to articles mentioning what we already know: Facilities are overcrowded and understaffed, therefore the overall care and quality of said facilities has been compromised. We know this already, but AOC claims that something much worse is happening: she's making the serious claim that guards are essentially committing crimes against humanity. Because of these claims, an investigation should be launched to reveal what's truly happening, bring individuals to justice, and then revamp the system so we can improve these conditions. Where exactly is the controversy in these statements?

And transparent? Now I'm some dastardly individual with a hidden agenda? Are you serious?

Morrigan wrote:
Nevermind that. It's probably all fabricated by leftist congressmen and women who are just trying to win political points.

You're acting as if this never happens. There's good reasons to be suspicious at all times with all politicians, including AOC.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:20 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
evidence


Yeah, what the fuck? Boggles my mind that there was so much back and forth over the veracity of AOC's report on the circumstances. Literally right after reading about her visit (I think through her tweets that I saw reposted somewhere?) I immediately looked into it in a number of major news sources. I saw her claims corroborated by a number of other people who were there, photo evidence that they got away with taking anyway, etc. Casting doubt on this stuff at this point is trudging directly across the border of conspiracy theorizing.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:21 am 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
And transparent? Now I'm some dastardly individual with a hidden agenda? Are you serious?

Yes, "transparent" means "hidden" for sure.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:39 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
evidence


Yeah, what the fuck? Boggles my mind that there was so much back and forth over the veracity of AOC's report on the circumstances. Literally right after reading about her visit (I think through her tweets that I saw reposted somewhere?) I immediately looked into it in a number of major news sources. I saw her claims corroborated by a number of other people who were there, photo evidence that they got away with taking anyway, etc. Casting doubt on this stuff at this point is trudging directly across the border of conspiracy theorizing.

Have you seen any corroboration of her claims of migrants being told by government agents (CBP/ICE) to drink out of toilets? This is the most horrific accusation and the one that'll become a talking point in the 2020, but I haven't seen anyone else confirm it.

Obviously these camps have drinking fountains attached to toilets, and I'm also sure migrants have scooped water out of the toilet bowl to drink it (they should be shown how to operate the sink, but probably aren't for various dumb reasons), but officials literally telling these people to drink toilet water should be a capital fucking offense.

But of course what's even more troubling is that Trumples are hyper-focusing on this and making it sound like everything else there is a fucking Marriot.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 1325
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:51 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Unorthodox wrote:
Ok lol I'll stand corrected on that. Either way, the colloquial use of the words "concentration camps" implies something different.

Almost as if I had deliberately pre-emptively debunked this horseshit so we wouldn't waste our time but why do I even bother

Also your post above is pretty insulting, not gonna lie. "Why can't we care about this when other bad things happen, oh well, guess that's that" is some ridiculous and disingenuous whataboutism


....almost as if I deliberately debunked this by saying

Quote:
This might seem like some sort of whataboutism, but seriously- we're all expecting people to actually care about the well being of migrants when these are the conditions they are faced with?


The lack of fuck people are going to give about other people when their own people are suffering is astounding, but a dirty truth. Hitler didnt get elected because Germany was running like a fine turned machine after wwi, and nor did Trump. Doesnt mean the atrocities both created are morally justifiable, but it does mean people are less likely to care until catastrophic damage is already done.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:35 pm 
 

Any predictions on how the citizenship question will turn out?
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:46 pm 
 

It's an obvious attempt by the Republican party to cheat in federal elections by excluding minorities so it will succeed and be included in the census, because all previous obvious attempts by the Republican party to cheat in federal elections by excluding minorities have succeeded.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:56 pm 
 

The difference is, if the question is added for the 2020 census, it would be in direct violation of constitutional law because it was essentially struck down by the SCOTUS.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:16 pm 
 

So excluding people named "Sanchez" or "Rodriguez" because there were ex-cons with that name from voting in Florida in 2000 was constitutional? It's a genuine question, I figured it wouldn't be but somehow found a loophole, but if it was then you're right that there's a difference.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:56 pm 
 

I meant that the justification for adding the Citizenship Question was struck down by the SCOTUS (and it requires a justification, and the deadline is rapidly approaching), so if he were to add it anyway it would be... I don't even know the consequences for such an action.

Can you link the Florida story, that sounds like something I should know about. Can't say I'm surprised in the least, the hostility to our southern neighbors is one of the few constants in American politics.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:06 pm 
 

I remember which site I read it on, but their search function is godawful, I'll try.

Two (very) badly Google translated links from that site, not literally what I once read but similar, it's hard to find exactly the one I want:

How to be cheated on US elections
How really manipulated in US elections
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korgull
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:53 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:10 am 
 

More on Florida's 2000 voter roll purge:

http://www.diggers.org/freecitynews/_disc1/0000001e.htm
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/V ... a_election
https://www.thenation.com/article/how-t ... chisement/

https://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/ ... 00/1235456
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... me-184830/

Problems with the 2004 Florida felons purge list too:
Quote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/10/us/florida-list-for-purge-of-voters-proves-flawed.html

After The New York Times examined the data, state officials acknowledged that the method for matching lists of felons to those of voters automatically exempted all felons who identified themselves as Hispanic.

Hispanic Republicans outnumber Hispanic Democrats by about 100,000 voters in Florida. But more than 90 percent of the approximately one million registered blacks there are Democrats. The exclusion of Hispanics from the purge list explains some of the wide discrepancy in party affiliation of voters on the felon list, which bears the names of 28,025 Democrats and just 9,521 Republicans, with most of the rest unaffiliated.


Last edited by korgull on Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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droneriot
incelgender

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:22 am 
 

Thanks. I haven't checked your sources but hope they are better than mine. When searching, it's easy to find a million sources about gerrymandering which I assume darkeningday knows all about, but very few sources about that specific process of purging voters who share their last name with an ex-con.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:04 am 
 

Brilliant readings, thanks guys.

I'm still wondering if Trump will actually force through the census question, given how adamant his hog base is. I'm not sure even he realizes just how unprecedented such an action would be.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
incelgender

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:10 am 
 

He realises. It might not be the same in American media, but here in Germany, Trump faking, lying, cheating and fucking everything up that's supposed to be democracy, that's in the news every day with a complete analysis of how that's not supposed to work within the constitution of the United States except for some loopholes and nuclear options.
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nestee8
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:05 pm
Posts: 279
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:06 pm 
 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fi ... spartanntp

I like how they talk about how Iran's violating the Nuclear Deal, but won't mention that we violated the deal first two years ago.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:10 pm 
 

nestee8 wrote:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/five-things-to-know-about-irans-breaches-of-the-nuclear-deal/ar-AADX0Xc?ocid=spartanntp

I like how they talk about how Iran's violating the Nuclear Deal, but won't mention that we violated the deal first two years ago.

"Woman cheats on husband two years after he finalized the divorce."
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3751
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:22 pm 
 

I see the burn-it-all-down'ers on the marginal fringe of the House are busying themselves learning how to craft meaningful legislation while focusing like a laser on defeating the Orange Monarch, and are not in any way engaging in internecine sniping at the moderate people responsible for 75% of their 2018 election gains

wait

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 7f01eebf06


"Democrats say Nancy Pelosi dislikes people of color" is the sort of thing GOP campaign strategists pray for and masturbate to. Good job, team.
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That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:30 am 
 

True, appealing to moderates is what won Hillary the 2016 election and Trump going scorched earth on anyone who dared even breathe a word against calling all brown immigrants rapists and drug dealers is clearly what lost it for him. :rolleyes:

Yes, the moderate dems won the 2018, but turnout is always far worse on midterms. The US has some of the worst election participation in the world (like, less than 60% iirc?), why not appeal to the millions upon millions of voters who didn't vote because in past elections, materially for them there's little difference between a neolib and a right-wing candidate? Why go for the microscopic "moderate" voterbase who will probably just go with Cool Guy I Saw On TV anyway?

People came out in droves to vote for Obama in 2008 because of his populist left rhetoric. Even though he welshed on most of those promises, he still managed to win because of his exceptional charisma and Mitt Romney's milquetoast centrism... but the margins were narrower.

After that, the cuckservatives were either kicked out, resigned or were uncucked by the Republican base (see: New Republic piece on Mitch McConnell, who saved the whole GOP by becoming obstructionist and far-right rhetorically). And it worked. Who's controlling almost all of our government right now, thanks to this? Why is this winning strategy so rarely encouraged on the left?
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:06 am 
 

Sorry, you're going to have to work really, really, reallyyyyyyy hard to get me to side with Pelosi over actual liberals.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:40 pm 
 

Quote:
Trump administration officials are removing references to climate change from U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) press releases, according to a report from ClimateWire reporter Scott Waldman.

https://www.space.com/federal-governmen ... rship.html

Ban science now! #maga
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