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last_eulogy
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
Posts: 149
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:05 am 
 

I think death is the worst part of it. I love the dogs I have and have had them for a very long time (in dog years). One is 13 or 14 and the 11 or 12.They seem to be the only thing getting me through my rotten life. I know soon they will gone. They are really like my children and it breaks my heart just thinking about life without either of them.
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Twisted_Psychology
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Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:54 am 
 

I grew up with cats and dogs, but I'm ultimately a cat person as much as I love dogs. Dogs are great for emotional validation and learning skills, but they're just too high maintenance for me. My partner and I took care of her friend's husky for about six months and said husky was as sweet as she was batshit insane. I just don't do well with an animal (Or anyone really) that demands intent attention from me at all times. Even when a cat is in your face, they'll eventually just go off to do their own thing. There's something that I appreciate about a reasonably self-sufficient animal loving you on its own terms.

I have four cats in my house right now. One is mine, two are my partner's, and one is technically her father's but is living with us until further notice. I also had a couple seniors (One of whom was a 21 year old that I had since grade school) that passed over the course of two months last year. I've loved them all and really couldn't imagine living without at least one cat around me at this point. It certainly hurts to lose them but the love you get and feel for them in that time makes it worthwhile and then some to me.
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last_eulogy
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
Posts: 149
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:01 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
I grew up with cats and dogs, but I'm ultimately a cat person as much as I love dogs. Dogs are great for emotional validation and learning skills, but they're just too high maintenance for me. My partner and I took care of her friend's husky for about six months and said husky was as sweet as she was batshit insane. I just don't do well with an animal (Or anyone really) that demands intent attention from me at all times. Even when a cat is in your face, they'll eventually just go off to do their own thing. There's something that I appreciate about a reasonably self-sufficient animal loving you on its own terms.

I have four cats in my house right now. One is mine, two are my partner's, and one is technically her father's but is living with us until further notice. I also had a couple seniors (One of whom was a 21 year old that I had since grade school) that passed over the course of two months last year. I've loved them all and really couldn't imagine living without at least one cat around me at this point. It certainly hurts to lose them but the love you get and feel for them in that time makes it worthwhile and then some to me.
I agree with you. I have had cats or dogs literally my entire life. Growing up my Father believed all animals should be outside and able to roam free. I never lived on a farm until in my teens. So we went though a lot of pets sadly. There are a few that really stick with me. I have some incredible memories with them. Its interesting because the very first dog we had we had inherited from my great grandmother when she passed. A few years later a neighbor down the street called and said our dog was on her porch and would not move. My parents went over there and it ended up going right to the vet. It was put to sleep in just a few hours time from the initial phone call. Its vague, but I believe it had twisted bowels. After almost 50 years later and it is still something that gets me choked up. I'm getting choked up just writing this. They really have an impact on you.
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Tekdeth
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:32 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:27 pm 
 

Just discovered Longmont Potion Castle through Implement of Prognosis. From what I've read it's an anonymous prank-caller that has a cult following. Most of his stuff seems to be on YouTube. I'm listening to some of it right now and it's pretty absurd & funny stuff.



Also, Implement of Prognosis is a project of his in which he blends samples from his prank-calls into thrash/death metal. I've yet to listen to it, but from what I've read so far he's a pretty good guitarist so I'll definitely be checking it out.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:17 pm 
 

last_eulogy wrote:
I think death is the worst part of it. I love the dogs I have and have had them for a very long time (in dog years). One is 13 or 14 and the 11 or 12.They seem to be the only thing getting me through my rotten life. I know soon they will gone. They are really like my children and it breaks my heart just thinking about life without either of them.

Well I have an 11 year old dog with a tennis ball sized tumour. Got the dog from my parents when I started my therapy back in the day "so I wouldn't be alone" and lived alone with her for most of her life through many rough years and some great times. It's an incredibly deep connection.
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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 36
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:45 pm 
 

Any GoAnimate/Vyond fans here? I ironically enjoy watching the grounded videos because of how stupid they are.
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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:08 pm 
 

Lately been getting pretty big into the Melvins. Dunno why I never bothered checking them out until over the last few months, they play exactly my style- tune low, beastly clean vocals, not stuck in one tempo. Great shit. Buzz Osborne is my fuckin spirit animal, a true embodiment of the crazy guitar kid from high school who stayed true to himself from the beginning to present.
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gasmask_colostomy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:26 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Lately been getting pretty big into the Melvins. Dunno why I never bothered checking them out until over the last few months, they play exactly my style- tune low, beastly clean vocals, not stuck in one tempo. Great shit. Buzz Osborne is my fuckin spirit animal, a true embodiment of the crazy guitar kid from high school who stayed true to himself from the beginning to present.

Second this. Not consistently good, but consistently interesting.
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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:50 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Lately been getting pretty big into the Melvins. Dunno why I never bothered checking them out until over the last few months, they play exactly my style- tune low, beastly clean vocals, not stuck in one tempo. Great shit. Buzz Osborne is my fuckin spirit animal, a true embodiment of the crazy guitar kid from high school who stayed true to himself from the beginning to present.

I like the Melvins too. My favorite album from them is Houdini.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:51 pm 
 

Fucking hell, they just banned the only subreddit I have ever used on the entire site.
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Zelkiiro
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Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:25 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Fucking hell, they just banned the only subreddit I have ever used on the entire site.

*narrows eyes*

And which subreddit would that be?
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Xenophon
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:07 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:38 pm 
 

Yeah LPC is really funny. Kinda a bit fucked up sometimes, but funny and original.

Zelkiiro wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Fucking hell, they just banned the only subreddit I have ever used on the entire site.

*narrows eyes*

And which subreddit would that be?

Lol. I think I can guess.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5245
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:44 pm 
 

Look, I know he gets a lot of hate, even I think he can go over-the-top in what he tweets and, perhaps most brazenly, what he re-tweets. But the fact of the matter is, love him or hate him, the man is an icon for countless men across the country, and even some women(!!!). So banning an entire subreddit devoted to the love an admiration of Virgil Texas is abominable. Virgil, you deserved better. And this JUST after he rose from the dead, :nono: .

Just so you're aware, The_Donald had shuttered itself months ago. This purge was more about drawing an equivalence between the far left and the far right.
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:20 pm 
 

Idk much about Chapo Trap House other than the fact that many of their followers meme pro-commie rhetoric in the same way Trumpies meme pro-nazi rhetoric. In some instances I think it can be alright to do as a sort of dark joke, but I don't like how many of those kind of people will be really fucking disingenuous when they're pushed on their beliefs, because some of them do believe that shit and hide behind "just jokes".

"Oh dude it's just memes bro, I don't really believe we should abolish private property"

"Yeah I know man, I'm cool with it. Just jokes right?"

"Yeah... but... Lenin did have a lot of good points and landowners are garbage"


No different than Trump voters

"Oh dude it's just memes bro, I don't really hate brown people"

"Yeah I know man, I'm cool with it. Just jokes right?"

"Yeah... but... we should build a wall across Mexico to make sure they don't come in, and those detainment centers aren't that bad, and blah buh blah buh blah"


Like, at least the tankies on this forum are outward about their beliefs :lol:
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:37 pm 
 

I don't remember where exactly but I read a review of that book they published and on that basis decided---regardless of their value as Twitter comedians---that it would probably be best just to ignore them.

The "DRAGON OF BUDAPEST" gags are funny though.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:25 pm 
 

If it's Bill Scher's review in POLITICO you're referring to, you should know that prior to it he was frequently a figure of derision on the pod, and he asked to review the book. I really hope you're not referencing that review though, because regardless of his opinions on the book, the review itself was so badly written I'd hope that who ever read it would assume the book must actually be great.

I much prefer the politics (not to mention the humor) of the pod to the subreddit, but it was the best place to discuss the pod so I'm sad.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Xenophon
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:07 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:33 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Just so you're aware, The_Donald had shuttered itself months ago. This purge was more about drawing an equivalence between the far left and the far right.

Delusional.

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Slater922
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 36
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:41 pm 
 

I'm bored everyone so here's a reminder of this materpiece.

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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:31 pm 
 

Xenophon wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Just so you're aware, The_Donald had shuttered itself months ago. This purge was more about drawing an equivalence between the far left and the far right.

Delusional.

Explain.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:49 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Idk much about Chapo Trap House other than the fact that many of their followers meme pro-commie rhetoric in the same way Trumpies meme pro-nazi rhetoric. In some instances I think it can be alright to do as a sort of dark joke, but I don't like how many of those kind of people will be really fucking disingenuous when they're pushed on their beliefs, because some of them do believe that shit and hide behind "just jokes".


Leaving out how gross your example is for equating a hatred of landlords to a hatred of Mexicans, you must not have spent too much time in Chapo if you think they hid their beliefs behind dark humor, lol. Users there were always open about what they believed and the jokes were never a veil for anything. The bit that got the sub quarantined was a flood of John Brown memes declaring that slaveowners should be killed. There's no coded language there. The message is that John Brown was correct to rebel the way he did and owning slaves is morally incorrect, not exactly much else to read into. Maybe you could make the argument that since slavery is still technically legal in the US as long as we're talking about prisoners it was a call to violence against police, but trust me when I say that the sub was never shy about saying when it was modern police they were talking about.

Don't get me wrong, in terms of pure Values-Neutral Governance, Chapo users very much broke reddit rules on the regular by brigaiding subs like r/neoliberal to troll centrists and any number of right-wing subs to troll chuds, their old practice of pinging racist users they found in other subs en masse and demanding they post dick pics instead of engaging in a bad faith debate certainly falls in violation of harassment guidelines, and constantly breaking rules about promoting violence for encouraging revolutions/uprisings/punching fascists. But it should be clear that Values-Neutral Governance like that explicitly removes context and therefore tends to give far right nonsense a ton of leeway and hammers far left beliefs much quicker and for much more stupid reasons. If you believe in rules that are always correct regardless of context, and you're faced with a situation where two groups with very different beliefs are calling each other fascists, instead of deciding which one is actually fascist, you're forced to condemn either both or neither of them. That's basically what happened with the banwave. Reddit spent years condemning neither and now finally knuckled up and condemned both of them for essentially the same reason despite the right and left wing subs caught in the banwave being very different. On one hand, it's amazing Chapo lasted as long as it did considering reddit's approach to rules. On the other hand, it's pretty telling that they gave the_donald like four years of second chances and made up a bunch of new rules to deal with them before finally banning the sub only after the users had ample time to organize and move offsite and leave the sub barren for months while simultaneously quarantining/nuking CTH without warning for vague "they were just as bad" reasons.

The only part of this that's actually worrying (on the whole it's not, it's good that they finally made a stand on many of the hateful subs they banned today and CTH was basically the sacrificial lamb to placate a dumb "both sides" feeling, and at the end of the day it's just a fucking subreddit so really who cares) is that their rule against evasion subs has basically given them precedence to shut down any far-left hangouts they want. Chapo long ago moved away from being a sub about a podcast and quickly became the biggest space on the site for general lefty talk. So now any new sub along the lines of "a space for leftist politics" or any sub with a sudden spike in ex-Chapo users is eligible for the same treatment.

Unorthodox wrote:
Like, at least the tankies on this forum are outward about their beliefs


Lol come on we've had like one notable hardline authleft user here in eons and she got hammered just as quickly as the alt-right users.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:52 pm 
 

I don't use Reddit or know much about that situation, but yeah these big platforms online are always letting racist shitheads get away with things forever and then banning random women for posting offhand comments about how men are assholes or whatever.

And yeah Unorthodox's equivalence between the far left and right is nonsense... one is way worse.
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:20 pm 
 

There were also many trans people, particularly trans women, who said the subreddit literally kept them from suicide. Sexism, racism, transphobia and homophobia, ironic or not, were strictly not tolerated. I didn't agree with their violent revolutionary rhetoric, more out of pragmatism than moral compunction, but I would certainly not call that the majority of the posts. It was mostly just a place for the small handful of English speaking leftists in the world to hang out.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:32 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Lol come on we've had like one notable hardline authleft user here in eons and she got hammered just as quickly as the alt-right users.

Semms you either unintentionally forget or for the sake of your sanity suppress the memory of Dembo. Not that it makes much of a difference whether it's one or two and no value is added to one's life remembering the other's demb posts.
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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:40 pm 
 

Chill guys, my point wasn't to equate the two, that's obviously a false equivalence and I don't at all mean to do that. My point was that people are often uncomfortable to confidently stand by their beliefs and will instead make humorous memes out of them and pretend they're joking around when really, deep down, they mean what they joke about. I see it on both sides, the far left and the far right.

BastardHead wrote:
Lol come on we've had like one notable hardline authleft user here in eons and she got hammered just as quickly as the alt-right users.


So the two or three people advocating for communism on the George Floyd thread aren't hardline authlefties? Especially the one who tried to rationalize the killing of jews in the gulags? Cmon man, I know you're more sensible than that :lol:.
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:54 pm 
 

The bone of contention is that r/cth constituents wore their actual political beliefs on their shoulder. Pretty much all of them.

Also "advocating communism" and being an authleft are not the same. Sedition's take was pretty bad though.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:04 am 
 

Idk, maybe they did. Bastardhead was right that I never really spent much time there ;). Although, I do spend time in other lefty circles on Twitch and YouTube, so that's where my perspective sort of comes from (the chapo people mingle in those circles too).

I also do think that advocating for communism will lead to advocating for a sort of authoritarianism, especially when commies talk about having socialism as a "transitional state" for society (IE, the federal government seizes all the means of production in order to [theoretically] transform the society into an entirely worker-ran society). Like, sure- you could think some of the communist ideas are noble and good, and that in and of itself isn't authoritarian.
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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:33 am 
 

All societies with a state, and many others for that matter, are authoritarian. Libertarian ultra minimal, socialist, fascist, feudal, Western liberal states, etc, are all authoritarian societies. They all exercise authority, one class over another, but for various goals and in various ways.

And I strongly doubt Sedition has anything against jews or any other ethnic/national group, though to an extent she's to blame for that unfortunate misunderstanding. But to an extent I also suspect some people intentionally "misunderstands" that post people are referring to.

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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:41 am 
 

Now there's a false equivalence if I've ever seen one :durr:

"All states are authoritarians. United Sates, Nazi Germany, modern Germany, Communist China- authoritarian! Zing, gotcha! Checkmate! Next plz"

That's obviously not what people mean colloquially by authoritarian.

And regardless of if Sedition has anything against Jews or not, she tried to rationalize a historical genocide, like kee-rist. There's no misunderstanding.
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Methuen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:13 am 
 

To give the chosen people a break - is it me, or is Perry Farrell starting to look like a Ben Stiller / Will Ferrell-movie version of himself ?

Image

I can't help reading the entire interview in a Zoolander voice :lol:

https://www.loudersound.com/features/janes-addictions-perry-farrell-interview-if-the-messiah-were-to-return-what-a-load-of-shit-he-would-step-into
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last_eulogy
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:28 am 
 

In pictures of him from certain angles he does.

I am wondering if he ever got his stolen jewelry back? Last year he and his wife were returning from a trip. They were bring luggage in. As they were inside, a car pulled up and grabbed one the pieces of luggage still outside. The bag just so happened to contain a very sentimental necklace given to him by his father. I read the story, but never heard anything else about it. Hope he got it back.

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/janes-addictions-perry-farrell-is-devastated-and-heartbroken-after-sentimental-jewelry-is-stolen-in-burglary/
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Dembo
Dumbo

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:41 am 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Now there's a false equivalence if I've ever seen one :durr:

"All states are authoritarians. United Sates, Nazi Germany, modern Germany, Communist China- authoritarian! Zing, gotcha! Checkmate! Next plz"

That's obviously not what people mean colloquially by authoritarian.

And regardless of if Sedition has anything against Jews or not, she tried to rationalize a historical genocide, like kee-rist. There's no misunderstanding.

The point wasn't of a gotcha type. You said that advocating for communism would lead to advocating for authoritarianism. So my point was that communists wouldn't deny that what they advocate includes authoritarianism from the start, since in fact all societies with a state are authoritarian. The fact that various statist societies like to deny their own authoritarianism and establish a culture of colloquial double-standards doesn't change that.

Ask the people of Vietnam, or many other countries, whether their experience of for example American excercise of authority is fundamentally different from the type you have in mind with the word authoritarianism. Chances are, when you grab your children and flee from your house that's on fire, you don't care whether the soldier holding the flamethrower represents a liberal parliamentary state or a fascist one.

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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:38 am 
 

last_eulogy wrote:
I am wondering if he ever got his stolen jewelry back? Last year he and his wife were returning from a trip. They were bring luggage in. As they were inside, a car pulled up and grabbed one the pieces of luggage still outside. The bag just so happened to contain a very sentimental necklace given to him by his father. I read the story, but never heard anything else about it. Hope he got it back.


That's terrible - stealing the guy's case from outside his house - Bad luck that it contained something so personal, but what a slimebag stealing stuff at random like that !
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last_eulogy
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:18 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:
last_eulogy wrote:
I am wondering if he ever got his stolen jewelry back? Last year he and his wife were returning from a trip. They were bring luggage in. As they were inside, a car pulled up and grabbed one the pieces of luggage still outside. The bag just so happened to contain a very sentimental necklace given to him by his father. I read the story, but never heard anything else about it. Hope he got it back.


That's terrible - stealing the guy's case from outside his house - Bad luck that it contained something so personal, but what a slimebag stealing stuff at random like that !
I figured they were probably driving through a rich neighborhood. Maybe they were doing it hoping for something like this, or maybe it was random. Could even be they followed them from the airport. The past few years of my life make me believe karma is absolutely real. Everything seems to have caught up to me. I hope it catches up to them. Sucks it was something that was so personal and meant so much to him. I never saw anything else on it, besides the few days of stories.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:37 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Idk, maybe they did. Bastardhead was right that I never really spent much time there ;). Although, I do spend time in other lefty circles on Twitch and YouTube, so that's where my perspective sort of comes from (the chapo people mingle in those circles too).

I also do think that advocating for communism will lead to advocating for a sort of authoritarianism, especially when commies talk about having socialism as a "transitional state" for society (IE, the federal government seizes all the means of production in order to [theoretically] transform the society into an entirely worker-ran society). Like, sure- you could think some of the communist ideas are noble and good, and that in and of itself isn't authoritarian.

Obviously you need a force strong enough to take on capital, and government is the only power to do so. But there's nothing inherently authoritarian about it, as opposed to capital which absolutely is authoritarian by its design, because people are usually born into wealth. The dream of a Horatio Algeirs, pulling one's self up by their bootstraps to become a power figure, is such a statistical anomaly it's not worth considering. The idea we're living in a meritocratic society is one of the most successful lies ever told. Quickest proof of this? Any billionaire, including the one who's in the White House.

Meanwhile, if you have a government that's democratically restricted and held accountable by its constituents, which is the only form of government advocated for by the non-tankie left, it is not only not authoritarian but it's significantly more democratic than what we have now.

So no, I wholeheartedly reject your claims that communism is inherently authoritarian, and that American capitalism, which restricts people from going to the fucking doctor, or feeding their family in a time of economic turmoil, or just having a basic standard of living, is not authoritarian, and frankly I find that claim to be highly concerning.

Personally I'm much closer to a social democrat, but I find it tiring to see communism--and our current capitalist model--portrayed this way.
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:24 pm 
 

Well, for one

darkeningday wrote:
So no, I wholeheartedly reject your claims that communism is inherently authoritarian, and that American capitalism, which restricts people from going to the fucking doctor, or feeding their family in a time of economic turmoil, or just having a basic standard of living, is not authoritarian, and frankly I find that claim to be highly concerning.


is a total strawman. I too consider myself a social democrat, and clearly, the slow corporate takeover of the government we've seen over the last 30 years created a form of authoritarianism. I have no arguments against that. That said, i don't think erring to the side of extreme leftism in which private property is abolished and the federal government takes everything over is a balanced way to approach any sort of sustainable solution to the problem we face as a society. I would imagine you feel the same way, seeing how you're a self-described social democrat and not a self-described communist.

darkeningday wrote:
Obviously you need a force strong enough to take on capital, and government is the only power to do so. But there's nothing inherently authoritarian about it


Think pragmatically about what you just said. What would that look like? Would it be a peaceful transition of power from business ownership (everything from Amazon to your local coffee shop), or would it be a bloody and violent mess? Think historically what this has looked like. How is that not authoritarian?

darkeningday wrote:
as opposed to capital which absolutely is authoritarian by its design, because people are usually born into wealth


Obviously I agree that isolating economic mobility to only those born into wealth, having limited taxation on estates, and creating segregated communities in which some have better public funding than others will create disastrous outcomes (among other thing such as limited capital gains tax, limited income tax, tax havens, yadda yadda yadda). But the data doesn't prove that this is an inherent problem with capitalism. Rather, it proves that the laws and lobbying power since around the 70's has greatly decreased economic mobility in our society. To throw the baby out with the bathwater and say

darkeningday wrote:
The dream of a Horatio Algeirs, pulling one's self up by their bootstraps to become a power figure, is such a statistical anomaly it's not worth considering


is not at all reflected in the data. The data reveals that, in the 1970's, people had a 90% chance of making more money than their parents, and that has now decreased to a 50% chance. And, those part of the upper 50% who still have a sort of mobility are usually in wealthy communities, come from wealthy families, etc. In other words, these problems aren't inherent problems of capitalism, they're inherent problems of the oligarchic takeover since America decided to become a "fuck you I got mine" country way back when we

1) Outsourced manufacturing and became a country where well-paid labor is mostly comprised of financial jobs/tech job/healthcare jobs
2) Corporate lobbying slowly folded itself into the government (this video talks about it pretty well)

As social democrats, I think our overwhelming goal should be to restore economic mobility in our country, so that, as my favorite neoliberal shill would say, if you work hard and play your cards right, you get ahead, no matter your income. The minute people start seizing all capital is the minute absolutely no one will have any sort of economic mobility, and we'll be back to square fucking one (arguably a worse position).
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:58 pm 
 

I didn't want to broach internationalism or history, but the corporate takeover merely accelerated the underlying problems of a scarcity-based economy. America was the fertile crescent of the modern age and it paid in dividends for years, but this is model is not sustainable, as it was never built with durability in mind. Limited resources. Limited spots. And capitalism is inherently incapable of dealing with climate change.

Also, "90% more likely to make more money than your parents" being a refutation of the refutation of the self-made man? Are you serious? :lol:

And yeah, violence is bad. But dying from lack of healthcare, from lack of adequate housing, from lack of proper nutrition, is also bad. Bad bad bad.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:11 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Think pragmatically about what you just said. What would that look like? Would it be a peaceful transition of power from business ownership (everything from Amazon to your local coffee shop), or would it be a bloody and violent mess? Think historically what this has looked like. How is that not authoritarian?

Wtf. O_o
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:24 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
And capitalism is inherently incapable of dealing with climate change.


Well man, how would a workers co-op that runs a fossil fuel company be better at dealing with climate change? Haven't we learned from the police unions during this George Floyd fiasco, which essentially covers the asses of shithead police officers, that unmitigated labor representation also stifles progress?

I've seen a lot of people miss this- climate change is a consequence of industrialization, not capitalism. All capitalism did was accelerate how fast humanity industrialized. But we would've still gotten here and been in the predicament we're in.

darkeningday wrote:
Also, "90% more likely to make more money than your parents" being a refutation of the refutation of the self-made man? Are you serious? :lol:


Ok, to be fair, I don't think anyone is completely self-made in the most rigid and literal sense, so I'll give you that. But it's wildly unfair to assert that "pulling one's self up by their bootstraps to become a power figure, is such a statistical anomaly". I don't think the majority of people want to become a "power figure" in the sense of some ultra-wealthy business magnate, but many certainly want more power in today's capitalistic system, which translates into how much wealth they have. Thus, economic mobility is the most important aspect to look at when looking at this. Is economic mobility a statistical anomaly? No, it just isn't.

darkeningday wrote:
And yeah, violence is bad. But dying from lack of healthcare, from lack of adequate housing, from lack of proper nutrition, is also bad. Bad bad bad.


Totally agree, no question :).

As to your "wtf" about what I asked about when you said "Obviously you need a force strong enough to take on capital, and government is the only power to do so. But there's nothing inherently authoritarian about it". I don't want to misconstrued anything you've said, so if I did I sincerely apologize hahaha
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:41 pm 
 

A worker co-op that owns a fossil fuel company is as preposterous as calling the police union a labor union.

What I mean by capitalism is profit-driven, scarcity based resource hoarding. If you can show me capitalism that disincentivizes wealth-hoarding, I'd be all in.

But these are all very rudimentary economic arguments that I myself grappled with for years before settling on a more holistic and ideologically coherent understanding. Since this whole discussion started with a reference to Chapo, it seems fitting to end it with one.

This is a discussion on the pod with Professor Richard Wolff, and it's a fantastic introduction to a modern understanding of what the modern anti-capitalist movements are really about. I know it's over an hour long, but it's entertaining and lighthearted, despite the heavy subject matter. It's really damn good.

https://m.soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-hou ... olff-21818

As a side note, the implication that competition and profit are the only things that drive innovation is patently absurd. We'd never have even gone into space if it wasn't for the commies.
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:41 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
A worker co-op that owns a fossil fuel company is as preposterous as calling the police union a labor union.


Well tell me how police unions aren't labor unions o.0. And dude, it was a hypothetical- what would a theoretical worker co-op that ran a fossil fuel company do differently than a corporate ran fossil fuel company to curtail climate change? I argue that they would be equally resistant to any form of change, that their incentive structure would make their business take precedence over an abstract ecological catastrophe.

darkeningday wrote:
What I mean by capitalism is profit-driven, scarcity based resource hoarding. If you can show me capitalism that disincentivizes wealth-hoarding, I'd be all in.


Capitalism is driven by profit, and scarcity based resource hoarding is needed in order to create that profit. That said, the reason why communism never gets adequately developed is because the countries that partake in the transformational state, Socialism, end up dealing with a government that resource hoards and ultimately never dismantles into the glorious worker-ran society that was initially promised. It proves that resource hoarding isn't a facet of economic systems, but a facet of human nature, which ultimately those economic systems organically arise from. Capitalism isn't the greatest system, but the most workable system for an imperfect species.

darkeningday wrote:
This is a discussion on the pod with Professor Richard Wolff, and it's a fantastic introduction to a modern understanding of what the modern anti-capitalist movements are really about. I know it's over an hour long, but it's entertaining and lighthearted, despite the heavy subject matter. It's really damn good.

https://m.soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-hou ... olff-21818


Ok, I'll listen to it :)

darkeningday wrote:
As a side note, the implication that competition and profit are the only things that drive innovation is patently absurd. We'd never have even gone into space if it wasn't for the commies.


Yes, humans have been innovating stuff for 27,000 years since the innovation of spears/arrows/etc during the hunter gathering age. I don't think economic systems inherently innovate, it's the people in those economic systems that do. I'm simply pointing out that capitalism has acted a means to provide an acceleration to innovation, although I do have worries about how helpful the profit motive will be with certain industries in the future (IE biotechnology/pharma/etc).
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