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Ezadara
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 609
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:41 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
59% of Russians say the USSR took care of ordinary people
75% of Russians say the Soviet era was the greatest time in the country's history
The simple fact is that most Russians preferred life under Soviet leadership to whatever the fuck America did to that poor country, dragging the vodka bloated corpse of Boris Yeltsin over the finish line and facilitating literal robber barons to snatch up most of the economy. I realize it's inconvenient.

1. Russians benefited during the Soviet era at the cost of virtually every other ethnic group in the country-- some of which were essentially erased from existence by Russification and by the diversion of their resources and labor to the Russian heartland. Buying into a poll of Russians saying the Soviet Union was great is like assuming police brutality against black Americans doesn't exist in the US because a majority of white people don't think it does. Funny how the voices of communities of color suddenly don't matter when they don't accord with your view of things.
2. Even then, I hardly think I need to tell you that perceptions don't always correlate with reality, especially where politics are concerned. Many Russians alive today never knew the worst excesses of the Soviet system; many remember only its dying days when it was beginning to liberalize in a desperate bid to survive. To those Russians, the Soviet Union was the time when their country was geopolitically relevant, when they were regarded as a superpower, and they're comparing it to the conditions of corruption, poverty, and stagnation they live in now, the immediacy of which is drowning out the negative realities of Soviet life. Of course they're going to romanticize that period.

But hey, keep right on trampling over the voices of those with lived experience in the USSR and ignoring reality in your determination to fault America for everything and absolve the Soviet Union. Folks on the far left like to accuse people they disagree with of being boot-lickers, but I gotta say, you're really polishing up those kirzas.

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Hexenmacht46290
Has a GED in Gamercide

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:01 pm 
 

If you phrase the questions correctly, you can get the answers you want, about which era of history was better. Especially if it’s one they never lived in. Some coworker was lamenting the bad things, about his blue collar manufacturing job, and was expressing his desire to live as a cowboy, a few years back. He was talking about it in idealized terms. The reason? He had started playing red dead redemption 2, on his Xbox. I tried telling him, that his image of that era of history comes from Hollywood, and it wasn’t like that, but he wouldn’t hear of it. For some context, before that, he was all about the face tattooed cloud rap scene, and was talking about buying status symbol Gucci crap.

Probably doesn’t help, that those people spent their whole lives being fed propaganda, about how Stalin’s abuses never actually happened.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:47 pm 
 

Oh right right I forgot, stats and polls are always trumped by anecdotal "lived experience."

But I'm not here to defend Stalin, whose expansionist policies were both strategically and morally reprehensible, and in direct opposition to Lenin's resoundingly internationalist and respectful doctrines. And it's worth noting that Khrushchev immediately acknowledged Stalin's worst acts as the crimes against humanity they were, and began the process of de-Stalinization... with mixed results.

And it's also worth noting that in the direct wake of the collapse of the USSR, the propaganda being pumped into everyone in Eastern Europe's eardrum was extremely anti-communist. It's only recently that the Union has become popular again--and it's hardly an opinion only held by pureblooded Russians.

Regardless, my point that rich people hate the USSR still stands. I'd be interested to meet an immigrant of an ethnic minority who came from a generationally poor family, escaped the Soviet Union with naught but the cloak on his back... and then remained just as poor in the United States. That's a story worth listening to.
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caspian
Old Man Yells at Car Park

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:16 pm 
 

One thing is for certain; the current system where we destroy the third world and cook the planet so that the rich can collect yachts is not a particularly good one either. Capitalism is bad in theory and bad in practice, has a death toll that dwarfs any other system, and is on track to end civilization.
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caspian
Old Man Yells at Car Park

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:17 pm 
 

Also, its weird how commenters will be all "listen to the Cubans who hate Cuba" while also being "ignore the Russians who loved the Soviet union". Very consistent.
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ObservationSlave
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:13 pm 
 

Sounds like the next logical step to this conversation is "99% of North Korean's believe they live in the freest country in the world. How dare you Americans criticize North Korea!"

Jokes aside, we should probably strive to live in a society that incorporates elements of both capitalism and socialism. The purest form of either doesn't work on paper or in practice.

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caspian
Old Man Yells at Car Park

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:27 pm 
 

Nah. That's half the problem; they're fundamentally incompatible. You can't have the working class running half the things, and the bourgeois owning the other half or whatever. We see it everywhere- reforms people spend decades pushing for, only for a particularly right wing govt to come in and undo decades of hard work (or for the CIA to coup someone they don't like, etc etc).

The few social democratic things we have; workers rights, free education, healthcare (well, here anyway), public infrastructure, hospitals etc, took decades of fighting and are under constant attack from an extremely well funded right wing.
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Sepulchrave
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:59 pm 
 

While I don't doubt quality of life hasn't improved for people of the Soviet Union after the fall of communism, it should be emphasized that a good deal of those who yearn for the Soviet times do it out of nostalgia, not out of any particular class consciousness. Fundamentally not all that different from Western boomers remembering the good old 70's/80's. I think it would also be extremely naive to say the increased approval for Stalin is also an increase in approval of Marxism-Leninism rather than a yearning for a father-figure strongman ruler (though most self-proclaimed MLs do just exactly that). A lot of countries affected by imperialism have this phenomenon. If you asked an average Yugonostalgic or a Russian Soviet nostalgic to explain why they think about Marx you'd be met with blank stares or vague positive replies.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:54 am 
 

Sepulchrave wrote:
While I don't doubt quality of life hasn't improved for people of the Soviet Union after the fall of communism, it should be emphasized that a good deal of those who yearn for the Soviet times do it out of nostalgia, not out of any particular class consciousness. Fundamentally not all that different from Western boomers remembering the good old 70's/80's.

Uh, given that life in the 70s/80s generally WAS better for white cishet Americans, who are usually the ones who lionize the past, you've kind of made my point. And of course, then the question is "aren't those 75% who loved the Soviet Union just the white cishet equivalent in Russia?" to which I say, citation fucking needed.

But it's also true that Russians feel the same affinity for Marx as Americans do for Keynes, which is to say, only cranks apply.

I don't see why we can't all just agree that Stalinism is irredeemably monstrous and evil, while Lenin's project was... a land of contrasts.
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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:53 am 
 

Do we know anything else regarding the car attack outside the Capitol? I haven't found any information as to the reason the driver did what he did. Most reports only say they rule out terrorism but not much else. It's been quite silent since it happened (at least on this side of the Atlantic).
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:17 am 
 

Seems like a textbook case of a severely mentally ill guy with paranoid delusions, coupled with involvement in a hate group (Nation of Islam) lone wolfing a dumbass attack.
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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:41 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Seems like a textbook case of a severely mentally ill guy with paranoid delusions, coupled with involvement in a hate group (Nation of Islam) lone wolfing a dumbass attack.


That's the impression I got as well. I was thinking it could even be a Suicide-by-Cop type thing. But do we know this or is it still just speculation?
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Sepulchrave
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:12 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Sepulchrave wrote:
While I don't doubt quality of life hasn't improved for people of the Soviet Union after the fall of communism, it should be emphasized that a good deal of those who yearn for the Soviet times do it out of nostalgia, not out of any particular class consciousness. Fundamentally not all that different from Western boomers remembering the good old 70's/80's.

Uh, given that life in the 70s/80s generally WAS better for white cishet Americans, who are usually the ones who lionize the past, you've kind of made my point. And of course, then the question is "aren't those 75% who loved the Soviet Union just the white cishet equivalent in Russia?" to which I say, citation fucking needed.

But it's also true that Russians feel the same affinity for Marx as Americans do for Keynes, which is to say, only cranks apply.

I don't see why we can't all just agree that Stalinism is irredeemably monstrous and evil, while Lenin's project was... a land of contrasts.


All I am saying is exercise caution when projecting an apparent yearning for a socialism outside the West. It is sometimes simply another form of nationalism rather than a proper class consciousness.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:16 am 
 

Definitely. Here's one of my favorite images, and a stern reminder that Russian nationalism was a mistake:

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LunarisIsDead
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Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:14 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:08 am 
 

Sepulchrave wrote:
All I am saying is exercise caution when projecting an apparent yearning for a socialism outside the West. It is sometimes simply another form of nationalism rather than a proper class consciousness.


This exactly. Authoritarian communism as applied in the USSR, Communist China, etc. is plagued by nationalism, militarization, autocratic governments, genocide, violation of human rights, and horrible oppression of its own citizens. And failure to recognize these things as horrible is not only gross as hell but it also really hurts outside perception of socialist movements.

We should all be agree that Stalinism is terrible. That places like China and Russia have suffered from a disgusting perversion of Marxist ideas. Talking about how communism increases literacy and access to healthcare and life expectancy won't convince anyone of anything unless you distance yourself from and condemn the authoritarian nationalist governments that most people associate with socialism and communism.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:42 am 
 

Oy... what the fuck is happening? Almost like I called it months ago, huh?

The rules in the OP wrote:
- Try to stay on topic. The US is a powerful entity and its politics have widespread ramifications, so tangents and mini-"derails" are normal, expected, and generally fine. But if you have been spending the last 3 pages discussing the merits of Soviet-style communism, it's time to stop.


Yeah, time to drop it or I'm gonna have to start dishing out bans (which, contrarily to popular belief, I don't actually like doing!).
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:16 pm 
 

ObservationSlave wrote:
Jokes aside, we should probably strive to live in a society that incorporates elements of both capitalism and socialism. The purest form of either doesn't work on paper or in practice.


I get why people say this, and personally I too don't really care what -ism you use. I just know what policies I like and I guess those all fall under socialism, which is considered a bad word by many Americans.

But really I think some get this idea that people who hate capitalism don't want a marketplace where people can buy and sell things from one another, or something like that. But that's not the case. We just need to get rid of the structure of capitalism where these billionaires and huge corporations can control pretty much every aspect of life. That's easier said then done, but it's the real root cause here. I'm not an expert on the theories of these terms and the histories and whatnot, but it seems like that's really what people who hate capitalism want gone - they're not anti-choice and want people to be able to be freer to live lives not as slaves to the grind of a 9 to 5 workday, churning out shit for the bosses to have more money.

People keep on having these debates about historic communist regimes, but U.S. style capitalism really is going to fucking destroy civilization down the line without meaningful change.
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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:46 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I get why people say this, and personally I too don't really care what -ism you use. I just know what policies I like and I guess those all fall under socialism, which is considered a bad word by many Americans.


"a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

It's such a testament to how fucked things are over here when people see that as inherently bad.

Fucked.
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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:52 pm 
 

ObservationSlave wrote:
Jokes aside, we should probably strive to live in a society that incorporates elements of both capitalism and socialism. The purest form of either doesn't work on paper or in practice.


I want to take this a step further and say that different societies at different times need different policies. This is why I'd rather not get to locked in to any one ideology. I don't think any ideology will be a miracle cure for all nations at all times. There is a time and a place, not for any ideology, but for different kinds of ideas. I don't mean that one should bend to whatever the majority wants at any single time but that workers rights were essential in the time after the industrial revolution when the conditions were bad. Nationalism is important to any divided country if we want to build a nation state. Capitalism is necessary to countries which have been to rigidly controlled economically by one ruling party etc. And sometimes the cure for one nation might be a poison for another.

I guess I'm an ideological heretic in some ways :-)
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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:21 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
I guess I'm an ideological heretic in some ways :-)


No, you just openly and proudly believe in nothing at all and act like that makes you the smartest guy in the room.
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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:25 pm 
 

Police in a suburb of Minneapolis murdered another unarmed black man. Needless to say, people here aren't taking it well.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:07 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
InnesI wrote:
I guess I'm an ideological heretic in some ways :-)


No, you just openly and proudly believe in nothing at all and act like that makes you the smartest guy in the room.


Well, I just prefer different medicines to different diseases. I think we to often get clouded by being ideologically right (in the minds of whatever in-group we belong to). We see it all the time in how some claim all the worlds problems comes down to exactly what their ideology tells them is the problem whether that is class conflict and capitalism, ethnicity, people's individual freedom or any of the other of the ideological buzz words.

When that is the case politics take the shape of hardcore religion where belief and conformity is valued higher than solving real world problems. This is why I can admire the Swedish Social Democrats to some extent (even if I don't feel at home in that party) - they do what it takes. They are not afraid of changing lanes if the real world situation makes them do it. Therefore they've been historically dynamic which is also why they've been so successful .
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:23 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
InnesI wrote:
I guess I'm an ideological heretic in some ways :-)


No, you just openly and proudly believe in nothing at all and act like that makes you the smartest guy in the room.


I haven't been involved in this thread much so the context of this is probably amiss, but stress testing beliefs is very important. At the very least, proudly being skeptical of what you believe in is virtuous, instead of backing up convictions with confirmation bias that is derived from the multitude of alternative media choices out there. Not to say it's an either or, but these days it certainly feels like people fall into one of two categories.
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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:35 am 
 

Trashy_Rambo wrote:
Police in a suburb of Minneapolis murdered another unarmed black man. Needless to say, people here aren't taking it well.


"She wanted to use her taser, not her gun" is the lamest, dumbest excuse I've ever heard.

EDIT: And also that Army officer who was arrested at gunpoint and maced. And the fucking attitude of the cops in this case is disgusting. "I,m afraid to come out of the vehicle" "You should be." Really? That's just beyond disgusting.

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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:48 am 
 

Even if the police officer meant with every intention to use a taser gun it's too fucking bad.

You are supposed to be protecting and serving. It should be the worst possible fuck up to arrive at killing a civilian.

You fucked up. The party is over.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:41 am 
 

Admitting that it was an accident and she meant to use her taser is just admitting she was a horrible cop and they don't give a shit about training after all.
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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:38 am 
 

She's a 25 year veteran, too. Either it's cold blooded murder, or she is criminally incompetent. The gun and taser are holstered on opposite sides for just this reason, and the gun literally weighs THREE TIMES more.
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ObservationSlave
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:23 am 
 

"Cop confuses gun for taser and shoots unarmed black man" sounds like something straight out of a satire piece. Are they actually running with that excuse? I'm consistently baffled by how low a standard we set for police officers. We have quite a lot of work to do.

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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:23 pm 
 

ObservationSlave wrote:
"Cop confuses gun for taser and shoots unarmed black man" sounds like something straight out of a satire piece. Are they actually running with that excuse? I'm consistently baffled by how low a standard we set for police officers. We have quite a lot of work to do.


She'll be defended with every last breath of that shitty police union.

I'm shocked when the word, "unarmed" makes its way out.

You'd think they would've fought tooth and nail to not let this info get out.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:28 pm 
 

If the police had any self awareness or genuine interest in trying, they'd do everything in their power never to even pull a gun around a black person these days. The fact that these stories keep happening just shows how utterly careless and callous they are, how little they give a fuck about anyone or anything but their own power.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:47 pm 
 

My favorite narrative on this from the Trump crowd is that the officer who killed Daunte Wright was a diversity hire. :lol:
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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:45 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
My favorite narrative on this from the Trump crowd is that the officer who killed Daunte Wright was a diversity hire. :lol:


Not surprising. Their take on rise of Asian hate?

"A lot of these are committed by black people, not by white supremacists!"

So? Asian hate is wrong no matter who commits it, white supremacist is wrong too (and is also feeding Asian hate, so...)

Ask them if Derek Chauvin was a "diversity hire"...

Also, on that subject, is it me or is it crazy? Some people commit murder in the depth of night, far from any witness or camera and they're found guilty. Here we have an asshole choking a man to death, we saw this on video, millions of people saw the murder happen in broad daylight, and they still argue "but maybe it was overdose!"

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Slater922
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:26 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
EDIT: And also that Army officer who was arrested at gunpoint and maced. And the fucking attitude of the cops in this case is disgusting. "I,m afraid to come out of the vehicle" "You should be." Really? That's just beyond disgusting.

Seeing the bodycam of that was heartbreaking, especially since I have a family member who serves in the military :(

Thank god the cop who did that got fired.
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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:52 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Also, on that subject, is it me or is it crazy? Some people commit murder in the depth of night, far from any witness or camera and they're found guilty. Here we have an asshole choking a man to death, we saw this on video, millions of people saw the murder happen in broad daylight, and they still argue "but maybe it was overdose!"


You aren't crazy, but this country is fucked and you've done a pretty good job of highlighting it in my opinion.
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Roktan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:44 pm 
 

I live in Minneapolis and I try not to let this bother me but it does. I actually disagree with the the slogan "people over property" when a building burns down or even gets looted. As if people who work there (a lot of them lucky to be working at all thanks to the pandemic) there don't get affected, by potentially losing days/hours worked or having to clean up the mess. As if the people who regularly just go to the store normally like everyone else suddenly no longer have access to goods and services they might need, and likely have to travel much further away to get them, and to some, that doesn't seem like a big deal, until you think about how much more gas that causes them to use that they have to pay for on likely a very tight budget. My local CVS was smashed into again (3rd time), and most likely, they swarmed the prescription drug area like they did before, which sickens me. There are people who NEED those drugs who are suddenly cut off to convenient access to them. Think about how places and stuff get closed down because of the riots, once again, messing with the people who could've worked that day earning money they need. My roommate works as security for sports events and those were canceled. All the money he is able to use comes from his work. You know the most messed up local place that got burned down when the first riots happened? An Atlas Staffing, which is a company that helps people get jobs. The building completely collapsed. Who the fuck firebombs a place like that?

The thing that has been bothering me a most seeing how emotionally affected by stress people have been by the pandemic, and now this on top of it. Hearing my roommate talk to me in anger about potential scenarios where he says he's going to do something that's likely to get him arrested, hurt, or killed, has led me to tell him that if he keeps it up, I will tell other people who care about him that he is a danger to himself because of the way he thinks. He is one of my best friends, and it may damage that, but when he says these things, he says it in a way that makes me thinks he means it, and I don't want to get that dreaded phone call to find out he did.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:51 pm 
 

Tell the cops to quit systematically killing Black people and the riots will stop.
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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:44 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Tell the cops to quit systematically killing Black people and the riots will stop.


Seriously though. The riots are happening because people have been shouting "You're killing us!" for years and been ignored or victim blamed. They've been left with no peaceful recourse.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:30 pm 
 

Trashy_Rambo wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
Tell the cops to quit systematically killing Black people and the riots will stop.


Seriously though. The riots are happening because people have been shouting "You're killing us!" for years and been ignored or victim blamed. They've been left with no peaceful recourse.


It's been a long slog of oppression and violence of varying kinds... people complaining about the riots just plain do not get it.
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Roktan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:40 pm 
 

Oh, I understand why the riots are happening. It just that it seems people tacitly support the riots without considering who really gets affected by them.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:07 pm 
 

I just see it as a force of nature. Things won't be well until the cops quit doing this which is a very tough thing to make happen. I don't really see a way this system of policing can be reformed.

Not to mention that at least a chunk of the destructive things happening have later been found out to be right wing agitators. I quit trying to judge it because new info kept coming out. The police make most protests violent anyway, not the actual protesters. Vast majority of protesters are very peaceful and just exercising their first amendment rights... to the chagrin of officials.
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