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praey
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:33 am
Posts: 781
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:29 am 
 

LycanthropeMoon wrote:
praey wrote:

Coheed and Cambria - Good Apollo I’m Burning Star IV, Volume One: From Fear Through the Eyes of Madness (2005)

Like Rise Against, Coheed was a band I was aware of for a while before I really got into them. I remember always wanting to explore them more but never getting around to it. When I finally listened to this album in full, the floodgates opened. It’s heavy, it’s catchy, it’s emotional, it’s progressive, it’s poppy, it’s filled to the absolute brim with fantastic ideas yet retains a unique identity and never once feels incoherent. I had the opportunity to see Coheed play this album live in full a few years ago, and I could barely contain myself from singing along to every song. In the 2000s these guys seemed unfairly lumped into the whole mallcore/screamo/Chiodos/Thursday scene, when in reality Coheed were always more of a progressive rock band. While In Keeping Secrets seems to be the fan favorite, in my book this album is their masterpiece and one of my favorite albums of all time.

Their early work is undeniably post-hardcore and emo influenced, especially "The Second Stage Turbine Blade", which just straight up is an emo/post-hardcore album. I honestly don't think it's entirely unfair to lump them in with bands like Thursday when they used to exhibit clear similarities. Hell, the song "Three Evils (Embodied in Love and Shadow)" distinctly reminds me of Jimmy Eat World, one of the biggest emo bands on the face of the planet. I'd also say they're partially the reason progressive and tech-y post-hardcore like Dance Gavin Dance, The Fall of Troy, and Circa Survive gained popularity. I'd honestly throw Chiodos in with those bands too (though they definitely looked a lot more "scene rawr xD" in terms of aesthetics). Hell, they've toured with all those bands, lol. I'd say "Good Apollo" v1 is definitely where the prog started outweighing their other influences, though.

All fair points. I guess it’s just discouraging to see people write them off as just another band from that scene when they really were quite unique.

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quickbeam
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:09 am
Posts: 192
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:40 am 
 

My list:
1. Sigur Ros – ()
2. Andrew W.K. – I Get Wet
3. Black Rebel Motorcycle Club – B.R.M.C
4. The Raveonettes – Lust Lust Lust
5. Turbonegro – Scandinavian Leather
6. British Sea Power – The Decline of British Sea Power
7. Interpol – Antics
8. The Strokes – Is This It
9. Liars – They Were Wrong, So We Drowned
10. Common - Be

This is a far more nostalgic list for me than the metal one. With one exception, these are all albums I used to play a lot at that time. Not so much since 2010. My metal list was typically albums I discovered later and am more likely to listen to today (same goes for ‘Be’ by Common, as I got really into hip-hop only in the last 5 years).

The other albums are strongly linked to my memories of indie discos or long bus rides home when I was a youngster. Thanks for doing this topic, LJS, I’ll need to dig out these records now.

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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 821
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:36 pm 
 

This list took a while for me to compile, but here it is at last!

1: Deftones - White Pony
2: Nothingface - Violence
3: Madvillian - Madvillainy
4: Daft Punk - Discovery
5: Slipknot - Iowa
6: Godspeed - Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
7: Kid Cudi - Man on the Moon: The End of Day
8: Linkin Park - Hybrid Theory
9: Kanye West - Graduation
10: Mario - Turning Point
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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
Posts: 5545
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:17 pm 
 

No order for these, just listing them as they came to mind.

1. Klaus Schulze - Kontinuum
Kinda the last non-compilation Klaus Schulze material I consider truly amazing. Just nice trancebient with some real rainy day vibes. Feels almost like it took some influence from Shpongle's Are You Shpongled? album. Speaking of...

2. Shpongle - Tales of the Inexpressible
Another deep electronic album, but this one fits a couple of moods. It's great whether its for waking up, driving, or just chilling out. The world folk elements and goofy stoner aesthetics make this a pretty unique listen.

3. Techno Animal - Brotherhood of the Bomb
Justin Broadrick (of Godflesh, Jesu, and Napalm Death fame) and Kevin Martin team up to bring a cool industrial hip hop/illbient release. Really surreal and just a lot of fun. A surprising selection of guest rappers fills out the album really nicely. El-P and Vast Aire from Cannibal Ox as well as a really destructive closing track with dälek.

4. El-P - Fantastic Damage
And from his appearance on the Techno Animal album and his later involvement with Run the Jewels, we get to El-P's solo material. Not nearly as mechanical as Techno Animal, but it has a lot of attitude and one of the best underground hip hop albums of the decade from one of the best white rappers in existence. Vast Aire has a guest appearance again and I liked him so much that I was led to this next album...

5. Cannibal Ox - The Cold Vein
Yet more mechanical underground hip hop that even El-P was involved with heavily. Vordul Mega brings a much needed contrast in style to Vast, but Vast Aire was what brought me here in the first place and he's still my favorite part of this. Just really fun rhymes and delivery coming from him.

Spoiler: show
You want to pop shit and get popped in the top lip?
I shoot the five and on a good day I bite bullets
We use bear traps to catch weasels
Metal mouth's diesel and the bite's lethal
We in the catacomb, nappy headed never used a comb
And built with the forces that blew away Dorothy's home
I grab the mic like, "Are you experienced?"
But I don't play the guitar, I play my cadence
And if I exhaled arguments only to hold my breath
I would die, and I ain't talking hair color
I'm talking about the reality with my mother's eye water
The author with a Papermate
Spitting paperweights


6. dälek - Absence
One more bit of mechanical hip hop, though this one's much heavier than the previous two. Real life events from last year really drove this album's content home and kept it relevant despite being 15 years old at the time. One of the heaviest, angriest hip hop albums ever.

That's all I got for now. I might come back to name 7 through 10 later, but this is a start.
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alexo666
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:53 am
Posts: 439
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:37 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Lyrici17 wrote:
alexo666 wrote:
7. Britney Spears-Blackout


This makes me so happy to see. I haven't finalized my list yet, but I'm anticipating this album making my list as well. Great choice regardless!


Even with my much higher penchant for mainstream pop than the average metalhead, I've still tried to shy away from Britney. What is it about this particular album? I see that it does have unusually high aggregated ratings compared to her earlier ones.



It's a lot more of a dancepop album beat wise, with some songs dare I say almost bordering synthwave. It doesn't feel as overproduced as her previous works, and a lot more humane, which I contribute to it being the album she was working on when she was starting to have her breakdown. Overall it slaps.
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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:13 am 
 

For the Sigur Rós fans, here's an old article on the production of their ( ) album with producer Ken Thomas. Thomas apparently passed away last week, I learned about it from Sigur Rós on Twitter. Discogs mentions he also worked with Queen, David Bowie, Modern English and The Cocteau Twins, just to name a few.
https://milocostudios.com/admin/uploads/201110261509402112463SIGURROSinSOS.pdf
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Lyrici17
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:20 am
Posts: 1404
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:40 pm 
 

alexo666 wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:

Even with my much higher penchant for mainstream pop than the average metalhead, I've still tried to shy away from Britney. What is it about this particular album? I see that it does have unusually high aggregated ratings compared to her earlier ones.



It's a lot more of a dancepop album beat wise, with some songs dare I say almost bordering synthwave. It doesn't feel as overproduced as her previous works, and a lot more humane, which I contribute to it being the album she was working on when she was starting to have her breakdown. Overall it slaps.


Yeah, it's the production for me. Most of the songs were done by Danja, and then the remaining tracks were all mostly handled by other producers who I also love (Bloodshy & Avant, J.R. Rotem, The Neptunes). Kara DioGuardi even helped craft a ballad that I actually like ("Heaven on Earth"), which is pretty much never. I also really like "Circus" and [especially] "Femme Fetale" a lot too, but "Blackout" is my EASY favorite Britney album.

It's the same reason I absolutely love the first 2 Lady Gaga albums particularly, so much RedOne production.


Deathdoom1992 wrote:
I don't think I'm gonna make a list but I just wanna say that Pearl Jam's Binaural is my favourite non-metal album of the 2000s by a big margin. Imo not only is it ridiculously underrated (I always seem to see more praise for the eclectic mediocrity of Riot Act), it's truly the best thing they've done post-No Code.

Honourable mentions are Pearl Jam's s/t, Tool's Lateralus, Manic Street Preachers' Journal for Plague Lovers. That's what I got off the top of my head.



As a big PJ fan, YES! "Riot Act" is without a doubt by least favorite PJ album. I once had someone compare it to "Ten"; I'm pretty sure I had a stroke. That said, I'm not a huge "Binaural" fan either, though I do like it, and considerably more than "Riot Act". Totally agreed on "Pearl Jam" though, I don't think it will make my final list, but it is currently in the running.
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Oxenkiller
Veteran

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 2985
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:36 pm 
 

I was listening to the Wolfmother album the other day, as I was driving back from a day in the mountains. Dang, if that album isn't dang near perfect. Every single song on there is perfect! It is one of the best pure rock n' roll albums ever made, I think. You have, well, the first seven songs in a row- and I've never heard a more flawless grouping of tracks on any album. Their sound is a perfect mix of Led Zeppelin, The Who, and maybe even a little Black Sabbath here and there, without being shamelessly derivative of any of these. I should have mentioned that in my earlier post. Especially since I did not realize that Jesu do, in fact, have a page here on the Archives. (And I'm pretty sure that Wolfmother do not, but I guess I better check before I post this!)

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collingwood77
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:24 am 
 

lordcatfish wrote:
Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Tori Amos' 90's albums are great. I lost touch after From The Choirgirl Hotel which is spectacular. Joanna Newsom is more my taste in that singer-songwriter lane.

Yeah, if we get to a '90s poll, there's a very good chance half of my picks would be Tori Amos albums. Her '90s albums are brilliant.

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I have a bunch of Tori Amos albums that people keep telling me I should listen to more, and maybe it's time to heed their advice.

It'll be the best thing you ever do :thumbsup: /fanboy

collingwood77 wrote:
The Offspring - Splinter (don't laugh please, listen to the non-hits).

I actually think the singles off this are pretty good. My problem with the album is four of the songs are either poor or complete throwaways. I have warmed to it more in recent years, but when I first got it I felt a little short changed (and I got it for £2.50 off eBay!)


Yes, I do like 'Hit that' and 'The worst hangover ever'. 'Spare me the Details' is a bit cringeworthy lyrically, but it works as a bit of fun. I think the album is very strong from 'The noose' (track 2) through to 'Spare me the details' (track 10). Some of the deep-album tracks are quite heavy and the production is just about perfect - clear and a bit thin and dry, not too syrupy. 'The noose' picks up some incredible speed, and 'Never gonna find me' is a real favorite.

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Methuen
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1904
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:14 am 
 

I hate to split the Sigur Ros vote - but much prefer Tak ! In no particular order -

Bat for Lashes - Two Suns (2009)
The Birthday Massacre - Walking With Strangers (2007)
Collide - Some Kind of Strange (2003)
Klimt 1918 - Just incase we’ll never meet again (2008)
Emilie Autumn - Laced/Unlaced (2007)
Ladyhawke - S/T (2007)
Lux Interna - Absence & Plenum (2002)
Inkubus Sukkubus - Science and Nature (2007)
Sigur Ros - Takk… (2005)
White Lies - To Lose My Life... (2009)

Couple of really interesting things there for me - the White Lies record comes from a very brief period when British Indie bands made some decent 80s-goth-infused rock, and it still stands up now. Laced/Unlaced (instrumentals) is the only EA record I still play regularly; the angry-angst-goth-girl lyrics of the rest just turn me off now, but the instrumental brilliance on this one is hard to beat for what it is. TBM & Bat For Lashes are exemplars of their repsective genres, and get criminally ignored in general by the wider world for some reason. The Lux Interna record is a great mixture of gothic-neo-folk-field-recording atmosphere.

Other's that I've pulled out of the list as I've gone along - the goth-dance stuff just doesn't stand up that well now (Pride & Fall, Helalyn Flowers), but I listened to them a lot back in the mists. Venus Doom is their metal album, my HIM-fangirl sister hated it, and I liked it as a good doom/heavy rock album. I must confess to actually enjoying 'Have a Nice Day', and did see them on that tour.

Pride and Fall - Elements of Silence (2006)
Helalyn Flowers - A Voluntary Coincidence (2007)
HIM - Venus Doom (2007)
Beyond Dawn - In Reverie (2009)
Bon Jovi - Have a Nice Day (2005)
Crippled Black Phoenix - The Resurrectionists (2009)
Mogwai - Rock Action (2001)
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Last edited by Methuen on Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CoF
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:25 pm
Posts: 503
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:26 am 
 

Methuen wrote:
Klimt 1918 - Just incase we’ll never meet again (2008)
White Lies - S/T (2009)


I guess you mean "To Lose My Life" for White Lies?

And vote-splitting happens again... d'oh. My list (and it's good no ranking is needed):

Godspeed! You Black Emperor - Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven
Converge - Jane Doe
Rome - Confessions D'un Voleur D'Ames
Tim Hecker - Harmony In Ultraviolet
Bohren & der Club Of Gore - Sunset Mission
Rosetta - The Galilean Satellites
Dälek - Absence
Klimt1918 - Dopoguerra
Infected Mushroom - Legend Of The Black Shawarma
Cut Copy - In Ghost Colours

For Converge (You Fail Me, Axe To Fall), Rome (Masse Mensch Material, Flowers From Exile) and Tim Hecker (Haunt Me, Radio Amor), I could easily have picked more than one album. It's no surprise Dälek is mentioned several times here, and like someone mentioned, the lyrics are (sadly) still so relevant today. The Rosetta drummer is so incredible on their first two albums, really underrated. And Cut Copy's "In Ghost Colours" is just the perfect synth-pop album for me, so many catchy tunes on one album.

I was about to include Angizia - 39 Jahre für den Leierkastenmann, but then remembered they are on the Archives.

Honorable mentions:
Aesop Rock - Labor Days
Björk - Vespertine
The Knife - Silent Shout
Oneohtrix Point Never - Zones Without People
Ostinato - Chasing The Form
Passion Pit - Manners
Raunchy - Confusion Bay
A Silver Mt. Zion - Horses In The Sky
White Lies - To Lose My Life...
Tom Waits - Real Gone
Rob Zombie - The Sinister Urge
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Methuen
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1904
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:28 am 
 

CoF wrote:
Methuen wrote:
Klimt 1918 - Just incase we’ll never meet again (2008)
White Lies - S/T (2009)


I guess you mean "To Lose My Life" for White Lies?


Klimt1918 - Dopoguerra



Nice choice ! Torn between the two Klimt albums myself.

I've always had the first White Lies down as self titled (goddam gracenote media database strikes again !). Don't actually look at that CD all that much.

Cheerfully amended in my post.
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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:55 am 
 

Nice to see Klimt 1918 mentions. I only have and know Dopoguerra and used to play it a lot the year it came out. You guys have motivated me to give Just in Case... a chance.

I'm also a Bat for Lashes fan, but I like her for particular songs rather than whole albums. Some of my favourites are Horse and I, Daniel and All Your Gold.
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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2307
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:25 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:
1. Klaus Schulze - Kontinuum
2. Shpongle - Tales of the Inexpressible


Nice to see these ones. Haven't listened to the latter especially in too long, though for me they never quite topped "Divine Moments of Truth" from the debut again. That tune has probably the coolest robotic harmonies I've heard.

Slater922 wrote:
8: Linkin Park - Hybrid Theory


Surprised this took so long for someone to mention. It was challenging to be both a fan of "underground" metal and this at the same time given the ire this album received at the time, but I somehow managed it.

Lyrici17 wrote:
It's the same reason I absolutely love the first 2 Lady Gaga albums particularly, so much RedOne production.


Guess I'm gonna have to look into it. There is a lot of cool stuff on those, but I suppose part of my reserve is still that Gaga at least has a great voice, whereas Britney's never appealed to me.

Methuen wrote:
Laced/Unlaced (instrumentals) is the only EA record I still play regularly; the angry-angst-goth-girl lyrics of the rest just turn me off now, but the instrumental brilliance on this one is hard to beat for what it is.


I enjoyed that one, never got around to any others, though I've heard good things about Opheliac.

Methuen wrote:
Other's that I've pulled out of the list as I've gone along - the goth-dance stuff just doesn't stand up that well now (Pride & Fall...), but I listened to them a lot back in the mists.

Pride and Fall - Elements of Silence (2006)


Maybe because you weren't listening to the right album!....I think Nephesh is much better. Tons of similar groups I like even more for that matter, Assemblage 23, Mind.In.A.Box, Liquid Divine and others.

CoF wrote:
Bohren & der Club Of Gore - Sunset Mission


I'm more into Black Earth, but this one is great as well. Still not nearly enough of that sort of thing, possibly because it's challenging to execute that balance correctly.

CoF wrote:
Björk - Vespertine


I thought more people would pick this one, but no proper votes at all so far. Maybe her 90s albums are superior, though this is still part of that classic run. Probably in my top 20 for the decade, so it'll be another that'll just miss the cut.

Miikja wrote:
I'm also a Bat for Lashes fan, but I like her for particular songs rather than whole albums. Some of my favourites are Horse and I, Daniel and All Your Gold.


"Two Planets" was basically one of my themes from summer of '09.

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Death By Wall of Text
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:18 pm
Posts: 200
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:27 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Slater922 wrote:
8: Linkin Park - Hybrid Theory


Surprised this took so long for someone to mention. It was challenging to be both a fan of "underground" metal and this at the same time given the ire this album received at the time, but I somehow managed it.

I always liked them as well and never saw any shame in it, they are/were damn good songwriters and the songs were catchy due to genuinely good writing and strong vocals rather than their obnoxiousness. Easily one of the best to come out of the "nu-metal" era along with Deftones and Slipknot, as completely different as each of them are.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2307
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:06 pm 
 

Meteora was really solid as well, but they lost me on the third album. Too watered down and they no longer had the uniqueness they did before.

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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
Posts: 7022
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:27 pm 
 

Death By Wall of Text wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Slater922 wrote:
8: Linkin Park - Hybrid Theory


Surprised this took so long for someone to mention. It was challenging to be both a fan of "underground" metal and this at the same time given the ire this album received at the time, but I somehow managed it.

I always liked them as well and never saw any shame in it, they are/were damn good songwriters and the songs were catchy due to genuinely good writing and strong vocals rather than their obnoxiousness. Easily one of the best to come out of the "nu-metal" era along with Deftones and Slipknot, as completely different as each of them are.

Aw fuck, I completely forgot about Hybrid Theory. Uhh, uhhh, umm...slot them in my #6 slot.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2307
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:26 pm 
 

BTW, in case anyone hasn't done so yet, you can occasionally check the OP again, I've been periodically updating it and the list is decent-sized now.

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Death By Wall of Text
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:18 pm
Posts: 200
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:56 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Meteora was really solid as well, but they lost me on the third album. Too watered down and they no longer had the uniqueness they did before.

I might have actually liked Meteora even more, but sort of agreed on the third one. A Thousand Suns, though... it's one of the more dramatic 180s I did on an album in my life, at first I was completely "WTF IS THIS" and was close to hating it, then I heard "Waiting for the End" and got very curious, then I grew to love the album. And it has arguably the only hip-hop song ever I really like, which is "When They Come For Me".

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
BTW, in case anyone hasn't done so yet, you can occasionally check the OP again, I've been periodically updating it and the list is decent-sized now.


I'll try to finally make a proper list of mine over the weekend :) taking the time was actually good as the posts here have reminded me of a lot of things.

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Liquid_Braino
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:25 am
Posts: 563
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:34 pm 
 

Death Mantra wrote:
Outside of metal, I'm in a lonely world where I listen to "weeb" music and I hate anime, visual kei and can't stand most people who listen to this stuff. Don't ask. Its weird, I've never liked any UK or US indie or alternative (and never will), but Japan just worked for me *shrug*. Its strange how I blundered into this stuff by accident, and slippery slope after slippery slope, it turned out to be a rather expensive hobby. :lol:


Not as lonely as you think. While I didn't really dive into Japanese metal until the onset of the 10's, I was big on J-pop in the aughts, basically my main interest in music at the time besides metal and prog. The shit I listened to was more commercial than much of what your list has, as I was into the big solo diva's of the late 90's/mid 00's before the shitty idol groups with a thousand members became the dominant scene, ruining everything. Thus my 00s list would be almost half Jpop queens (a little nostalgia helps too):
Mika Nakashima - The End (proud owner of the Sony vinyl version)
Sheena Ringo - Shoso Strip
Utada Hikaru - Ultra Blue
Ayumi Hamasaki - either Duty or I Am
Namie Amuro - Past<Future (maybe)

Outside of that, the usual Mars Volta, Muse, Bat For Lashes, Nick Cave and Bjork (Vespertine for sure) come into play. Glad to see lots of love for TBP Walking With Strangers (another vinyl I have now worth way more than I spent). I also find myself digging The Decemberists' The Hazards of Love lately for some reason.

I'll organize it at some point, probably a lot of shit I missed (love Hiromi Uehara too, seen her twice and she signed my Time Control, Spiral and Voice CDs after the shows).

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Death Mantra
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:52 pm
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:08 pm 
 

I think for J-Rock/pop/whatever, it just checks off all the boxes for me (best explanation I can come up with). This stuff was pretty much an extension from exploring Japanese metal, until it got to the point where it overtook metal for me :lol: Things have settled down a bit and things have returned to normal though (in other words, 95% of the bands I like broke up, as usual). Also going into mid 90s/early 00s nostalgia mode changed things a bit for me too.

I think the funny thing is, if my list was posted in J-Rock circles, it would be largely generic/common. A lot of that stuff was on major labels: Midori (lol), GO!GO!7188, TsuShiMaMiRe, Ling Tosite Sigure, 9mm, Jinn, Chirinuruwowaka, etc. I screwed up and put the wrong Ling Tosite Sigure album (should be "Just A Moment") but it probably doesn't matter. :lol:

I think the main reason why I opted to check Shiina Ringo's stuff out (even though I think I might have actually got into Tokyo Jihen first) was because she is an influence on a ton of Japanese artists that I listen to. There used to be a guitar-driven version of Kuki on youtube which was really cool (it got yanked though, as usual), which was my introduction.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2307
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:53 pm 
 

Liquid_Braino wrote:
Outside of that, the usual Mars Volta, Muse, Bat For Lashes, Nick Cave and Bjork (Vespertine for sure) come into play. Glad to see lots of love for TBP Walking With Strangers (another vinyl I have now worth way more than I spent). I also find myself digging The Decemberists' The Hazards of Love lately for some reason.


We seem to have an unusually large number of fans of her here for some reason, but I don't think Bat For Lashes is nearly on the level of popularity as those others are in general. The Decemberists is another interesting one, I listened to them a bit back in the day (most of the indie stuff was more miss than hit to me, but they were one of the better ones), but I preferred The Crane Wife myself.

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jimbies
Noose Springsteen

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 3301
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:38 am 
 

EXTREMELY LONG POST WARNING

The 2000’s is such a weird decade for me. From 2000 - 2005, I basically listened to nothing but metal, Bruce Springsteen, Radiohead and classic rock.

In late 2005/early 2006, I basically had my own personal “Falling out” with metal, and barely listened to anything new from the genre for the rest of the decade. I started listening to a lot of Canadian indie rock/folk music, and a lot of rap. Here is my list, followed by a bunch of honourable mentions, because this is REALLY hard to narrow down:

1. The Gaslight Anthem - The '59 Sound (2008)
Honestly, probably my 2nd favourite album of all time (next to Springsteen's Born To Run. And sometimes I honestly think I might like this one more). I actually wrote an entire essay on this record. It's chock full of references and nods to influences but is by far their most earnest and endearing work. I feel like they spent the rest of their career chasing the magic found on this thing. The Backseat is probably my favourite closing to a record, ever.

2. Bruce Springsteen - Magic (2007)
The best post-reunion Springsteen album by far. Actually one of my favourites in his entire catalog. Girls In Their Summer Clothes is such an underrated song, and Long Walk Home is one of his all-time best.

3. Radiohead - Kid A (2000)
So. Many. Classics. The run of 4 songs to open this album is about as good as it gets. Listening to Radiohead with earphones is just a different beast.

4. The Wooden Sky - If I Don't Come Home You'll Know I've Gone (2009)
Canadian Indie rock/folk band. Their best album imo is actually the one that came after this, but one is pretty damn good, as well. I highly suggest the track "Something Hiding For Us In The Night". They don't tour outside of Canada often, but I suggest you see them if they come near you.

5. Antimatter - Saviour (2001)
Ah. The Good ol' days, before Antimatter decided they wanted to sound like Staind. This album really got me into trip-hop, and was the soundtrack to many, many long nights.

6. The Game - Doctor's Advocate (2006)
Probably in my top 5 rap albums of all time. It runs a LITTLE bit long, and when I put it on now, there are a couple tracks I skip over, but this thing is loaded with bangers.

7. Joel Plaskett Emergency - Ashtray Rock(2007)
Another Canadian indie rock fav. Sadly, this was kind of his last album before he really started to fall off quality wise. A very neat little concept album full of bops n' jams.

8. Sigur Ros - Taak (2005)
It feels disingenuous to put albums AHEAD of this on my list, because this is such an experience. I know a lot of people think ( ) is their masterpiece, but I'd argue I like this one A LOT more. I don't care how over used or over played it has become, Hoppipoola is one of the greatest pieces of music ever composed. Seeing it performed live is like leaving earth.

9. Bruce Springsteen - The Rising (2002)
The Mighty E Street Band returns with a record (mostly) inspired by 9/11. It was so great to hear the band playing on Bruce's songs again. The record is probably a couple songs too long (Let's Be Friends and The Fuse are pretty bad), but there are so many great deep cuts on this. Really wish he'd play some of these live again (Worlds Apart, Further On Up The Road) The song Paradise is the most haunting thing he's done.

10. Jay-Z - Blueprint 3 (2009
Most people don't point to this one as their favourite Jay-Z album, but I found this one to be the best mix of "pop mega single" Jay-Z and hip-hop Jay-Z. I will never apologize for loving the song Empire State Of Mind, but Venus Vs. Mars is one of my all time favourite Jay-Z songs.

The rest of 11-25:
11. Radiohead - Amnesiac (2001) - Listen to Pulk/Pull Revolving Doors with good headphones on, please.
12. Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - No More Shall We Part (2001) Too long, but has some incredible songs on it. The first two tracks especially
13. Elliott Brood - Ambassador (2005) - Check this shit out. "Death Country" from Ontario, Canada. So many barnburners. Wolfgang is my favourite track from it.
14. Antimatter - Lights Out (2003) - Almost as good as the debut, and the last of their trip-hop phase.
15. Trick Trick - The People Vs. (2005) - Pure gangster rap from Detroit. This guy seemed like he was headed for the stratosphere with tracks like Welcome To Detroit, but sadly it never happened.
16. The National - Boxer (2007) - My favourite album from them is actually High Violet, but this one is so good. Even if Fake Empire became as overused and overplayed as CCR songs in Vietnam movies.
17. Justin Rutledge - Man Descending (2008) - Canadian indie folk. Justin has one of the smoothest voices you'll ever hear. The instrumentation on this is so tasteful and warm.
18. Jay-Z - The Black Album (2003) - Jay-Z's huge album is loaded full of huge singles. As classic of a rap album as you can find.
19. Two Hours Traffic - Little Jabs (2007) - Power Pop/Indie rock from Canada. So catchy, so fun, so to-the-point. Check out the track "Jezebel" if you want a good time.
20. Radiohead - Hail To the Thief (2003) - We get it. He loves Radiohead. Punch Up At A Wedding and Wolf At The Door are two of their best songs.
21. Bjork - Selmasongs (2000) - Not sure if I genuinely love the songs on this record, or if I just love the film Dancer In the Dark so much.
22. Augustana - Can't Love, Can't Hurt (2008) - Pop-Rock album from a band that also seemed like they were going to be huge. Full of big hooks and "put me on a TV Drama Series" songs. Sweet and Low & Meet You There still get me.
23. The Acorn - Glory Hope Mountain (2007) - Sprawling indie/folk concept album from Ottawa, Canada. Rootsy, Worldly, intricate. I saw The Acorn live for the first time on this tour in a small bar before I had ever heard of them, and I instantly became a huge fan.
24. Elliott Brood - Mountain Meadows (2008) - Named after the 1800's massacare, it's another wild macabre death-country ride.
25. Bruce Springsteen - Devils & Dust (2005) - Ignore the song Reno. "The Hitter" is one of his best "story songs" in his catalog.

Honourable mentions, per year:

2001
Bjork - Vespertine
Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band - Live In New York City (didn't want to include a live album in my top 10, or else it would be there. Some of the best live performances of some of his songs)
Systematic - Somewhere In Between (heard about them like everyone else - being signed to Lars' record label. But this hard rock album has stood the test of time for me.

2002
Floyd Lee - Mean Blues (incredible delta blues album)

2003
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - Nocturama

2005
Sufjan Stevens - Come On Feel The Illinois! (absolute masterpiece)
M83 - Before The Dawn Heals Us
Death Cab For Cutie - Plans (actually cannot listen to this one at all anymore due to painful nostalgia. But I have to include it)

2006
Young Jeezy - Thug Motivation 102: The Inspiration (I Luv It is one of my favourite rap songs)
Mogwai - Mr. Beast
Justin Timberlake - Future Love/Sex Sounds
Josh Ritter - The Animal Years (the first three and last four of this album would have made an incredible album on their own. A few duds in the middle)
Damien Rice - 9 (yeah, yeah, yeah. It's IKEA mom folk. But the song 9 Crimes is a masterpiece)

2007
Bon Iver - For Emma, Forever Ago (influenced an entire generation, it seems)
Kenny Chesney - Just Who I Am: Poets & Pirates (go ahead and make fun of this, I don't care)
Kanye West - Graduation
Justice - Cross
Arcade Fire - Neon Bible (The Suburbs is the best album, but Keep The Car Running is the best song)

2008
Portishead - Third
John Mellencamp - Life, Death, Love And Freedom (I will argue that "Longest Days" is his best song, ever.)
Fleet Foxes - Fleet Foxes

2009
St. Vincent - Actor
Japandroids - Post Nothing
Dan Mangan - Nice. Nice. Very Nice
Cuff The Duke - Way Down Here

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2307
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:23 pm 
 

jimbies wrote:
6. The Game - Doctor's Advocate (2006)
Probably in my top 5 rap albums of all time. It runs a LITTLE bit long, and when I put it on now, there are a couple tracks I skip over, but this thing is loaded with bangers.


I remember enjoying this one back then when I was in a major hip-hop phase. I haven't heard it in far too long though, so I didn't put it on my extended list for fear of nostalgia overly coloring it. But if it's on yours I probably ought to revisit it again.

jimbies wrote:
Damien Rice - 9 (yeah, yeah, yeah. It's IKEA mom folk. But the song 9 Crimes is a masterpiece)


I should probably give that album another shot sometime, it didn't connect as much as 0 did. "The Blower's Daughter" was in the film Closer (always had a massive crush on Natalie Portman) and really intrigued me. It also turned me on to Alison Hannigan from her guest work on it. "Cannonball" ultimately wound up being the song that I keep returning to from him though.

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jimbies
Noose Springsteen

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 3301
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:29 pm 
 

I think Closer is how I found out about Damien Rice, honestly. I do really like the first album, as well. I actually think if you took the best parts of each record, you'd have a classic.

I've kind of hated everything he has done since 9, but maybe that's me growing out of that kind of thing.

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Liquid_Braino
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:25 am
Posts: 563
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:31 pm 
 

Death Mantra wrote:
I think the main reason why I opted to check Shiina Ringo's stuff out (even though I think I might have actually got into Tokyo Jihen first) was because she is an influence on a ton of Japanese artists that I listen to. There used to be a guitar-driven version of Kuki on youtube which was really cool (it got yanked though, as usual), which was my introduction.


Shiina was my gateway thanks to being introduced to her stuff by a Japanese friend in 2001. When 加爾基 精液 栗ノ花 came out I was so excited but had a hard time getting into it but thankfully it grew on me (I bind bought the CD so I was willing to persevere). It's great and wildly creative, but I have such fond memories listening to her first two albums, can't decide which is my fav. I dig Tokyo Jihen too and appreciate the musicianship, lots of jazziness.

I want to check out that Kara album, seems interesting.

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
We seem to have an unusually large number of fans of her here for some reason, but I don't think Bat For Lashes is nearly on the level of popularity as those others are in general. The Decemberists is another interesting one, I listened to them a bit back in the day (most of the indie stuff was more miss than hit to me, but they were one of the better ones), but I preferred The Crane Wife myself.


Yeah, I was actually meaning in "this forum" sense, as she has a lot of fans. I saw her perform (holy crap is she great live) in Feb of 2020, the last show I've seen. Glad I caught her before covid messed shit up. Also gotta say that I actually like Fur and Gold at about the same level as Two Suns, so I'm not sure which one I'd ultimately pick.

The Crane Wife and Picaresque are quite good too. I think what I like most about them is the lyrics. It's like they were written back in the early 20th century. Highbrow, clever to almost smug levels, amusing enough to not be too serious...basically different than most stuff I listen to.

Noticed you mentioned Vanesa Carlton in your list, not someone I was expecting to see. I checked out her albums on a lark not too long ago and was surprised to find out how much I liked Harmonium. What a strange pop album that is...

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2307
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:47 pm 
 

Liquid_Braino wrote:
Noticed you mentioned Vanesa Carlton in your list, not someone I was expecting to see. I checked out her albums on a lark not too long ago and was surprised to find out how much I liked Harmonium. What a strange pop album that is...


That's the album that the label started losing control of her on. They wanted more straight-ahead pop tunes like "A Thousand Miles" (which is good for what it is, but she's more multi-faceted than that), and she wanted more freedom of her own music and writing, which she ultimately had more of over time. Harmonium has a lot of great stuff as well though, especially a song like "Half a Week Before the Winter".

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Death Mantra
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:52 pm
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:40 pm 
 

Liquid_Braino wrote:
Shiina was my gateway thanks to being introduced to her stuff by a Japanese friend in 2001. When 加爾基 精液 栗ノ花 came out I was so excited but had a hard time getting into it but thankfully it grew on me (I bind bought the CD so I was willing to persevere). It's great and wildly creative, but I have such fond memories listening to her first two albums, can't decide which is my fav. I dig Tokyo Jihen too and appreciate the musicianship, lots of jazziness.

I'm not even sure which Shiina album I got into first, its all a blur. Curse me with binge-orders. I think 加爾基 精液 栗ノ花 hooked me first due to feeling like a concept album (at least it seems like one). Plus Kuki and Souretsu are my favorite songs by her. Kinda wish I heard that album back in the 00s, I'm sure I would've dug it back then. Tokyo Jihen seriously is the band that so many Japanese bands want to be (everything from Gesu no Kiwami Otome to Polkadot Stingray to even lesser-known artists like Vivid Undress (who I still adore, regardless)).

Quote:
I want to check out that Kara album, seems interesting.

Not really sure what to pigeonhole them as, dark alternative or something. I think they were part of Japan's shoegaze scene, yet I see them tagged as post rock all the time (they don't sound post rock to my ears, but what do I know lol). A bit stylistically all over the place but consistently dark and melancholic. This is the opening track from their full-length. Glad I finally managed to land a CD copy, it eluded me for awhile. Sucks they disbanded back in 2011 and released so little material.

If you liked that, 101A may be worth checking out. Female-fronted, goth-tinged shoegaze/post-rock. I don't think they're as dark as Kara, but they can get pretty damn moody too at times (esp. the song "Sea"). I'm kinda annoyed with myself that I first learned of them in 2019 and they've been around for like 20 years.

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lord_ghengis
Still Standing After 38 Beers... hic

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 5753
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:49 am 
 

I listen to fuck all non-metal so be gentle haha.

1) Mars Volta - Deloused in the Comatorium
2) Queens of the Stoneage - Songs For the Deaf
3) Modest Mouse - We Were Dead Before the Ship Even Sank
4) Gifts From Enola - From Fathoms
5) John Butler Trio - Sunrise Over Sea
6) Modest Mouse - Good News For People Who Love Bad News
7) God is an Astronaut - God is an Astronaut
8) Porcupine Tree - Fear of a Blank Planet
9) Queens of the Stone Age - Rated R
10) Electric Six - Fire
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DeadKid
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 301
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:41 am 
 

Here's what I came up with. Volta is my 2nd favourite Björk album after Homogenic as I like her energetic stuff much more than her softer material.

The majority of the Bloodhound Gang album is a bit unremarkable, but it also delivers 3 of my all-time favourite songs (Something Diabolical, Balls Out and No Hard Feelings).

1. Throbbing Gristle - Part Two: The Endless Not
2. Nurse With Wound - Salt Marie Celeste
3. Björk - Volta
4. Throbbing Gristle - The Third Mind Movements
5. Left or Right - Nuggety
6. Bloodhound Gang - Hefty Fine
7. Pine Tree State Mind Control - Transmission #4
8. Bohren & der Club of Gore - Black Earth
9. Anti-Nowhere League - The Road to Rampton
10. Rust - Lean Mean Street Machine

Honourable mentions:

Dupobs - Le sex l'ove
Dupobs - Drop the Coin
Agnostic Asylum - I Moved Into a House the Other Day and It Started to Consume Every Little Dust Specklet to the Point of a Metaphorical Orgasm
The Dead Weather - Horehound
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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2307
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:41 am 
 

DeadKid wrote:
Here's what I came up with. Volta is my 2nd favourite Björk album after Homogenic as I like her energetic stuff much more than her softer material.


I guess I'm the opposite. My favorite songs of her's are the moodier, more atmospheric ones, like "All Is Full of Love" (Greatest Hits version), "Family", "All Neon Like", "Generous Palmstroke", etc.

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FirebathDan
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:56 am 
 

1. Porcupine Tree-Fear Of A Blank Planet
2. Sigur Ros-Takk…
3. Blink 182–self titled
4. Fountains Of Wayne-Welcome Interstate Managers
5. Angels And Airwaves-We Don’t Need To Whisper
6. Marillion-Marbles
7. Guns N Roses-Chinese Democracy
8. Jimmy Eat World-Futures
9. Flickerstick-Tarantula
10. Godspeed You Black Emperor-Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven

Other albums considered:

AFI-Sing The Sorrow
Alanis Morrissette-So Called Chaos
Alice In Chains-Black Gives Way To Blue (AIC is not metal to me)
Andrea Corr-Ten Feet High
Angels And Airwaves-I Empire
At The Drive In-Relationship Of Command
Blackfield-2
Coldplay-Rush Of Blood; X&Y; Viva La Vida
The Corrs-In Blue; Borrowed Heaven
The Cure-Bloodflowers
Deftones-White Pony; self titled
The Dictators-DFFD
Disfear-Live The Storm
Dixie Chicks-Home; Taking The Long Way
Flickerstick-Welcoming Home The Astronauts
Foo Fighters-In Your Honor
Fountains Of Wayne-Traffic And Weather
Garbage-BeautifulGarbage
The Gathering-Souvenirs
Godspeed You Black Emperor-Yanqui UXO
The Hives-Veni Vidi Vicious
Interpol-Turn On Your Bright Lights
Jimmy Eat World-Bleed American
The Killers-Hot Fuss
King Crimson-The Power To Believe
Marillion-Anoraknophobia; Happiness Is The Road
The Mars Volta-Deloused In The Comatorium; Frances The Mute
Metric-Fantasies
Mono-Hymm To The Immortal Wind
My Chemical Romance-Three Cheers For Sweet Revenge; The Black Parade
Nelly Furtado-Folklore
Nine Inch Nails-Year Zero
No Man-Together We’re Stranger
Nova Social-Other Words From Tomorrow’s Dictionary
Paul Westerberg-Mono (released under the alias Grandpaboy)
Porcupine Tree-In Absentia; Deadwing
Portishead-Third
Queens Of The Stone Age-Songs For The Deaf
Radiohead-Kid A; In Rainbows
Rancid-second self titled album; Indestructible
REM-Reveal; Accelerate
Rush-Snakes And Arrows (Rush is not metal to me)
Secret Machines-Ten Silver Drops
Sigur Ros-()
Smashing Pumpkins-Machina 1
Soulcracker-At Last For You
Spiraling-Transmitter; Time Travel Made Easy
Sponge-For All The Drugs In The World
Steven Wilson-Insurgentes
Suffocate For Fuck Sake-Blazing Fires…
Them Crooked Vultures-self titled
Thursday-Full Collapse; War All The Time; A City By The Light Divided
U2–How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb
Velvet Revolver-Contraband
Yeah Yeah Yeahs-Fever To Tell; Show Your Bones; It’s Blitz
Zolof The Rock And Roll Destroyer-Schematics
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Lyrici17
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:20 am
Posts: 1404
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:56 pm 
 

It's interesting [to me], I knew that 2000-2009 (2008!!!!) was my favorite era of pop music/dance-pop (though there was some definitely bleed over for about 3-4 years after that as well, with 2010 specifically being a crazy-good year, in my opinion), but it was surprising how much more obvious it was to me once I began crafting a favorite albums of 2000-2009 list where I wasn't considering metal albums at all (well....). Anyway, here's my final list:

01. Ladyhawke "Ladyhawke" (2008)
02. Britney Spears "Blackout" (2007)
03. Lady Gaga "The Fame" (2008)
04. New Kids on the Block "The Block" (2008)
05. Lady Gaga "The Fame Monster" (2009)
06. Morrissey "You are the Quarry" (2004)
07. Warpaint "Exquisite Corpse" (2008)
08. The Black Mages "The Black Mages" (2003)
09. Flo Rida "Mail on Sunday" (2008)
10. Britney Spears "Circus" (2008)

Some honorable mentions (in no particular order):
Spoiler: show
Deftones "White Pony" (2000) (okay, this was my #11)
The Black Mages "The Black Mages II: The Skies Above" (2004)
The Black Mages "The Black Mages III: Darkness and Starlight" (2008)
From First to Last "Dear Diary, My Teen Angst Has a Bodycount" (2004)
Wednesday 13 "Transylvania 90210: Songs of Death, Dying, and the Dead" (2005)
Madonna "Confessions on a Dance Floor" (2005)
The Smashing Pumpkins "Machina/The Machines of God" (2000)
Atreyu "The Curse" (2004)
Reveille "Bleed the Sky" (2001)
Glassjaw "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Silence" (2000)
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Rodrigo
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:22 pm
Posts: 23
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:21 am 
 

This thread shows a lot of music I need to listen!
These are some albums that I like, only 1 album per band:

Tool - Lateralus
The Cure - Bloodflowers
Portishead - Third
Deftones - White Pony
Rammstein - Mutter
In Extremo - Sünder ohne Zügel
SOAD - Toxicity
The Killers - Hot Fuss
HIM - Razorblade Romance
Morrissey - You are the Quarry

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5688
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:35 am 
 

Lyrici17, where the hell is La Roux??? :nono:
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Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Lyrici17
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:20 am
Posts: 1404
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:06 pm 
 

I like her self-titled album okay, but not nearly enough for consideration (though "in for the Kill" is a fantastic track). Now, if "Trouble in Paradise" had been released in 2000-2009, it would have had a decent chance.
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oogboog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 943
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:06 pm 
 

Arctic Monkeys - Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not
Anti-Flag - For Blood and Empire
Rise Against - The Sufferer & the Witness
Disrupt - Unrest
System of a Down - Mezermize
Magrudergrind - Magrudergrind
Green Day - American Idiot
The Fray How to Save a Life
Hatebreed - Perserverance
Rise Against- Siren Song of the Counter Culture

This was kinda hard for me since it I stopped listening to a bunch of nu metal stuff that came out in this decade, and I only wanted to rank stuff I still listened to.

Gonna check out these other albums, though.

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