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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 2347
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:48 am 
 

SculptedCold wrote:
So is M-A still in line with big pharma, big media and the gov. over censoring and banning anyone who wants to talk about the actual science still?


Lol wanna have a discussion about F=MA? It'll pretty boring, because there's a whole lotta consensus that newtonian physics parallels the observable world pretty goddam well. Same holds true for the vaccine among biostatisticians, medical doctors and virologists. I'm sympathetic to the fact that plenty of 'pro vaccine' people (weird I even have to phrase it that way) act like know it alls about the science of this vaccine but remain woefully ignorant. Those people don't typically serve any good to a conversation that takes a great degree of life science education. But nor do people who don't have a life science background that are 'anti vaccine'. Literally both camps need to shut the fuck up and listen to the medical doctors or become one (yes, that's still a possibly for many budding young skeptics).

The whole ivermectin thing was what really made me realize just how blatantly anti scientific pro vaccine people were being. That, for me, was the moment that delineated between those who actually know medicine and those who hear a headline and report what the headline said. But beyond that example, I'd rather that flock of sheep than the other one who decided to eat the horse paste version of the drug.

SculptedCold wrote:
I'm curious, what is the actual science as everyone understands it? Public data, and Pfizer's and the CDC's very own published data and resources do not tell the story that the media is telling people it does. It seems that the vast majority of people are not asking the most basic logical questions about the data and the official narratives around the pandemic and its treatments and effects.


Like what?

SculptedCold wrote:
It's been two years, are people allowed to discuss the situation openly and critically yet? The biggest social websites and even medical and scholarly institutions have been engaging in concerted censorship of non-mainstream views under gov. order and under the pretext of protecting the public from "misinformation". Support groups for vaccine-injured people who can get no help from their doctors, the FDA, the CDC, or the pharma companies have been being shut-down on FB. Vaccine injuries have always been a thing. Side effects are science. But it can't be discussed for CV, nor can the few injured by vaccines be acknowledged or helped. Why?


Go ahead, discuss away, but private ownership is private ownership. That's just the law man, I don't know what to tell you, FB does what FB does because it doesn't wanna deal with the blowback of doing the opposite. People use those relatively few cases of bad side effects as confirmation bias, as if having myocarditis as a vaccinated teenager is somehow an extremely common thing (or other symptoms like blood clotting from the JnJ vax). They're not common.

SculptedCold wrote:
Is it not obvious to anyone around here that the world is moving towards authoritarianism? That the governments, media, corporations, and military complexes are all enmeshed, incestuous, self-serving, and not our friends?


No, it's not obvious to me. Less than twenty years ago ~100 people in suits controlled the entire narrative of the status quo of the world. Now everyone is free to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. "Cancel culture", as Jon Stewart recently said, is a symptom of democratizing criticism. That's not centralized authoritarianism, it's quite the opposite :lol:. I think people are just waking up to how authoritarian everything has always been.

And to be frank, I'm afraid of how 'free' things are getting. There's a reason why people never wander too far from what they know- they get lost and die. Same thing feels like it's happening now on an intellectual level. People can just wander freely on a voyage of knowledge, and they go so far from what they're made to handle that they end up losing their brain along the way. Like horseshoe theory- so much knowledge, and so much freedom to attain knowledge, that those who acquire the most are just as delusional and ignorant as those who acquire none.

SculptedCold wrote:
Why are ordinary people, doctors, professors, the injured, the hesitant, the curious et al; our friends and neighbours and fellow modestly-incomed; now not to be listened to or believed when they have questions or valuable insights on real data and studies? Why are we all repeating the mantras of those who serve the interests of $70billion dollars extra revenue a year? Revenue that will be in perpetuity for them, if we all give up our bodily autonomy, our rights, and our protections under the Nuremberg code and just go along with mandates? Why is asking about or talking about possible alternative remedies and existing drugs; investigations and trials for them, not only not done but being mass censored? Ridiculed?


I agree that there are doctors and professors that have not been listened to on the subject of covid, with both good and bad reasoning. But the majority of the questioning is from the flock of scientifically-illiterate-yet-skeptical people who hate when actually qualified people tell them what to do with their bodies in order to minimize the spread of a deadly pandemic.

SculptedCold wrote:
I realize i'm risking being ridiculed

You're risking it about as much as a person jumping from a 100 story building risks hitting terminal velocity and splatting their guts allover the sidewalk.

SculptedCold wrote:
Sorry for the rant, but people need to wake the fuck up. What are y'all still doing parroting the fucking media? Haven't we learned anything in 50 years of corporate rule? Are you all still looking for WMDs in Iraq or what? *sigh*


See, this is the shit I feel sympathetic to. Because yeah- I remember back in those days when the media figureheads and politicians all sheepishly walked into a complete and utter catastrophe built off of a lie. I can understand how years of manufacturing consent would build intense skepticism to a lot of the narratives of the mainstream media, which would ultimately make them even more skeptical of those same people trying to tell them to get vaccinated. But I'm only sympathetic, not in alignment. Because this is different.

SculptedCold wrote:
We can talk about data and the insights of real scientists and professors working on these issues. We can. Or you can ban me for being a dumb hick Trump anti-vaxxer, like you've been told to by the "news". None of those descriptors apply to me except possibly dumb. But... can we talk about the data? Science? Yet?


Not if you're not qualified. Sorry man, that's just how science fucking works lol and I see this shit everywhere. Shit math skills and people 'just discussing data' while not having a fucking clue how to interpret it is one of the biggest culprits of spreading covid misinformation. Might seem elitist, but maybe this is more motivation for people to learn a bit before talking about shit they know nothing about.
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DeadKid
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 538
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:19 am 
 

SculptedCold wrote:
Is it not obvious to anyone around here that the world is moving towards authoritarianism? That the governments, media, corporations, and military complexes are all enmeshed, incestuous, self-serving, and not our friends?

Well, being in New Zealand, I have the luxury of mainly considering the NZ government. I'm certainly not convinced by all the people recently accusing them of moving significantly towards authoritarianism. If anything, our current government is highly unproductive, winging it through the pandemic and expending all their effort just trying to look good, so they couldn't plan such a move if they tried. I noticed one person who made such accusations has a history of associating with gangs for possible access to military-style weapons, and made threats to authorities about what his 'army' is going to do. To me it seems like a comical self-fulfilling prophecy where the extremists who predict our government becoming more authoritarian are the very ones who behave in such a way as to necessitate that happening. I can't speak for other countries, but here it's part of a wider phenomenon where people on the extremes of politics (including radical individualism) try to drag people over to their views by spouting about some perceived future that's nowhere near as likely as they think. For example, claiming that a city with small communities of Asian people who can't speak English is a sign that the city's English speakers will become a minority. Never mind that all kids will learn it at school...

I can believe the concern that some Western countries will copy China's social credit system and agree that that'd be very bad.
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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:25 pm 
 

SculptedCold wrote:
It's been two years, are people allowed to discuss the situation openly and critically yet? The biggest social websites and even medical and scholarly institutions have been engaging in concerted censorship of non-mainstream views under gov. order and under the pretext of protecting the public from "misinformation". Support groups for vaccine-injured people who can get no help from their doctors, the FDA, the CDC, or the pharma companies have been being shut-down on FB. Vaccine injuries have always been a thing. Side effects are science. But it can't be discussed for CV, nor can the few injured by vaccines be acknowledged or helped. Why?


There are many factors here. First, is that in addition to the people who would ask genuine questions, there are plenty of bullshitters. Fake medicine vendors, contrarians, habitual liars, people who lie for an agenda...

Second is that this is the first time that we're confronted with this - a pandemic mixed with a supertool capable of both information, but disinformation as well.

Quote:
Is it not obvious to anyone around here that the world is moving towards authoritarianism? That the governments, media, corporations, and military complexes are all enmeshed, incestuous, self-serving, and not our friends?


I don't like that reasoning because while I agree that we should always be wary of people in suits and ties telling us things, they are not a monolithic entity.

Quote:
Why are ordinary people, doctors, professors, the injured, the hesitant, the curious et al; our friends and neighbours and fellow modestly-incomed; now not to be listened to or believed when they have questions or valuable insights on real data and studies? Why are we all repeating the mantras of those who serve the interests of $70billion dollars extra revenue a year? Revenue that will be in perpetuity for them, if we all give up our bodily autonomy, our rights, and our protections under the Nuremberg code and just go along with mandates? Why is asking about or talking about possible alternative remedies and existing drugs; investigations and trials for them, not only not done but being mass censored? Ridiculed?


Again, because for everyone who asks genuine questions, there are ten bullshitters. Also, what's the alternative? I see worries, I don't see a solution. Let people get ravaged by COVID?

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Cummon people. I've been using MA and on this forum for 2 decades. I'm willing to lose that on the long shot that people might actually be able to discuss the "real science" and what has transpired, evolved and been looked at for two years now. By many people smarter than a lot of us, with everything to lose and nothing to gain in discussing real data.


Well, I don't see you bringing up any real science here.

Quote:
Sorry for the rant, but people need to wake the fuck up. What are y'all still doing parroting the fucking media? Haven't we learned anything in 50 years of corporate rule? Are you all still looking for WMDs in Iraq or what? *sigh*


Sorry, but you sound like a contrarian. "Media isn't always trustworthy, therefore if media says A, why should A be true?" Also, the media isn't a monolithic entity.

Spoiler: show
We can talk about data and the insights of real scientists and professors working on these issues. We can. Or you can ban me for being a dumb hick Trump anti-vaxxer, like you've been told to by the "news". None of those descriptors apply to me except possibly dumb. But... can we talk about the data? Science? Yet?


Don't know what news you're reading, but the ones I read never bring up Trump or anything. Even if it did, it wouldn't preclude Trumpers from being lies-peddling antivaxxers.

Quote:
Y'see this is the sort of desperate ranting longform insanity that an authoritarian, divisive, censorship society and era does to people. I'm embarrassed, honestly. But that's what it is now: desperation. And I haven't even been made destitute by a vaccine injury. Lots have.


And even more have been killed or suffered side-effects from the disease, or been made orphans. I guess that's OK because it doesn't fill anyone's pocket (except the people working at the mortuary, maybe?).

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oldmetalhead
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:37 pm 
 

SculptedCold wrote:
oldmetalhead wrote:
Oxenkiller wrote:
Most are vaxxed, some aren't, whether it be their age or because they believe stupid shit that is not science. It's all I can do. I prefer science to opinions.


So is M-A still in line with big pharma, big media and the gov. over censoring and banning anyone who wants to talk about the actual science still?

I'm curious, what is the actual science as everyone understands it? Public data, and Pfizer's and the CDC's very own published data and resources do not tell the story that the media is telling people it does. It seems that the vast majority of people are not asking the most basic logical questions about the data and the official narratives around the pandemic and its treatments and effects.

I shouldn't have to say this, but i'm vaxxed and a vaccine believer. I hold no political affiliation, but i'm anti-authoritarian in my views. I've lost a family member to COVID and know others who have died. I also know older people with co-morbidities who've had symptomless COVID.

It's been two years, are people allowed to discuss the situation openly and critically yet? The biggest social websites and even medical and scholarly institutions have been engaging in concerted censorship of non-mainstream views under gov. order and under the pretext of protecting the public from "misinformation". Support groups for vaccine-injured people who can get no help from their doctors, the FDA, the CDC, or the pharma companies have been being shut-down on FB. Vaccine injuries have always been a thing. Side effects are science. But it can't be discussed for CV, nor can the few injured by vaccines be acknowledged or helped. Why?

Is it not obvious to anyone around here that the world is moving towards authoritarianism? That the governments, media, corporations, and military complexes are all enmeshed, incestuous, self-serving, and not our friends?

Why are ordinary people, doctors, professors, the injured, the hesitant, the curious et al; our friends and neighbours and fellow modestly-incomed; now not to be listened to or believed when they have questions or valuable insights on real data and studies? Why are we all repeating the mantras of those who serve the interests of $70billion dollars extra revenue a year? Revenue that will be in perpetuity for them, if we all give up our bodily autonomy, our rights, and our protections under the Nuremberg code and just go along with mandates? Why is asking about or talking about possible alternative remedies and existing drugs; investigations and trials for them, not only not done but being mass censored? Ridiculed?

I realize i'm risking being ridiculed, censored and banned by wanting to discuss the SCIENCE of the situation and not simply repeat a big media buzzphrase as many do, but some of you now are asking these questions anyway in your resignation: why are we still dealing with surges? Why? How can we find out if no-one is allowed to talk about it?

Like I said it's been two years. The only answers you have from the ultrawealthy owner class of the media and the gov is RAHH THE UNVAXED ARE KILLERS AND WE NEED TO LEAVE THEM BEHIND. Are you all really willing to accept that? Give up your bodily autonomy in perpetuity and dehumanize literally millions of ordinary people in your own communities? For what? To be "safe"?. From what?

Cummon people. I've been using MA and on this forum for 2 decades. I'm willing to lose that on the long shot that people might actually be able to discuss the "real science" and what has transpired, evolved and been looked at for two years now. By many people smarter than a lot of us, with everything to lose and nothing to gain in discussing real data.

Sorry for the rant, but people need to wake the fuck up. What are y'all still doing parroting the fucking media? Haven't we learned anything in 50 years of corporate rule? Are you all still looking for WMDs in Iraq or what? *sigh*

We can talk about data and the insights of real scientists and professors working on these issues. We can. Or you can ban me for being a dumb hick Trump anti-vaxxer, like you've been told to by the "news". None of those descriptors apply to me except possibly dumb. But... can we talk about the data? Science? Yet?

Y'see this is the sort of desperate ranting longform insanity that an authoritarian, divisive, censorship society and era does to people. I'm embarrassed, honestly. But that's what it is now: desperation. And I haven't even been made destitute by a vaccine injury. Lots have.

First off, I don't represent the views here on M/A, I'm just a metalhead that like to talk and learn new stuff to listen to. I'll toss my opinions in on other stuff, politics, sports even religion but It's just that, my opinion.
Look, I and my whole family has had covid, I almost had to be hospitalized,I don't want that shit again I follow the CDC recommendations and what my Dr says. I'm no scientist or medical professional, I'm just a 52 year old , relatively healthy man who has 4 generations of family members that I see every week. Everyone in my family that can be is vaxxed except my Mom, who is half crazy and watches Fox news everyday, she has definitely been manipulated by the media. She was recently hospitalized for a mental condition and then they found out she had covid. She was asymptomatic but still had to spend 10 extra days in the covid ward. I think it just steeled her opinion that she didn't need the vaccine. Whatever.

I'm not into "big pharma" or listening to what the media tells us. I get sick, I see my Dr, I see a worldwide pandemic which has effected myself and my family and friends, I listen to the CDC recommendations and do what's best for me, my family and everyone else we come in contact with. I don't know why you made this so political but that is part of the problem here in the USA.


Last edited by oldmetalhead on Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:40 pm 
 

So much bitching and whining about "not listening to big pharma" or "parroting the media" or whatever; yeah it's just that I don't want to get fucking COVID.

Nobody who writes drivel like this guy did ever has a feasible solution for what to do if not get the damn vaccine and wear a mask. Sucks that those companies and the government are shady and that masks are annoying. Still better than getting covid.
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:11 pm 
 

The feasible solution is this: wear a mask and get vaccinated! That is the best solution, but I think what his point is is that this whole thing has happened in so short of an amount of time and been shoved down our throats that there might be a little bit of a reason to be skeptical and that's not irrational.

Most vaccines typically take 10-15 years before they are considered effective and safe enough for mass use. However, with COVID, since it's such an emergency, we've cranked out vaccines faster than we ever have before, some people getting theirs before others because one hadn't been developed yet for a certain age group. The vaccine is still very new technology and if this weren't a global pandemic, there would be a hell of a lot more time put into making sure that this thing was as effective as it could possibly be for everyone. As it stands, the vaccination can't even guarantee 100% safety in everyone and there are people who refuse to do basic stuff like wear a mask and stay home. We're literally being used as guinea pigs for a technology that appears to work so far in a general sense, but has undergone a fraction of the development time that items similar to it have. The medical field must be commended for the progress they have made in such a short time, but there could be so much more. And a big part of it rests with people taking personal responsibility and wearing masks.

What's more, people still don't even really know how to actually treat COVID. The most they can do when someone is wheeled into the hospital and they have to be put on a ventilator before they die is to isolate them and pray that it goes away. There is way more time being invested in vaccines (probably contributing to their rapid progress when compared with similar products) than there is in actual prophylaxis. And I think both should be focused on equally.

I don't think anyone has anything to lose by getting vaccinated. I got my two shots and the most that happened to me was a dull ache in my arm and, I assume, some level of protection against COVID. Unless they have some kind of allergic reaction (the chance of which is many orders of magnitude lower than getting COVID itself), anyone has nothing to lose and everything to gain by getting vaccinated. But I completely understand being hesitant to buy everything that figures of authority throw at them about the vaccine. Appeal to authority is a fallacy for a reason. Authorities on subjects have to prove their claims just like everyone else. No one is saying that vaccines are totally ineffective or that they're full of 5G chips or something. They're merely saying that this thing still has a long way to go and the information given out to the public at large is confirmation bias-serving unless you know where to look.

The other side is that sometimes unpleasant things must be done for the greater good of society. The authoritarianism you speak of has demonstrably caused great harm to significant populations in the past. The pandemic I speak of has demonstrably caused great harm to significant populations in these last couple years. So which, in your view, is worse? An "authoritarian" rule that acts for the greater good of society as a whole by attempting to combat a pandemic or one that turns dehumanizing, unfair, harmful, or even genocidal? People need government because the government's supposed to protect them. Our government (at least in the US) has good intentions, I'm sure, but the intent has to match the methodology. We're told to wear a mask - good. That's a minor inconvenience and it's effective. We're told to get vaccinated - good. Let the conspiracy theories go and trust vaccine technology - but be wary if it's still in an experimental stage and hasn't had so much time to develop, and if the disease itself hasn't had much time to develop and be researched.

In short, wear a mask and get vaccinated when the time comes. You'll do yourself and society good and this thing might just subside a little more. Just make up your own mind on it.
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Hexenmacht46290
Has a GED in Gamercide

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:54 pm 
 

The thing that a lot of people just don’t get, is that yes, you government doesn’t really care about you, but it doesn’t necessarily follow, that vaccines are going to harm you. People can be harmed by vaccines, but it’s almost always from what’s used to extract, or hold in liquid form, the actual DNA(RNA, in this case).

Why do I not believe, that government/institutional malice, or negligence, will lead to people being harmed, by the product they’re pushing? The United States government subsidized the development of vaccines for COVID-19, because the previous administration wanted to take credit for it, and get re-elected. Obviously, that didn’t work, but that was the intention.

Those in power are still greedy, and amoral. But it’s because they’re greedy and amoral, that they don’t want you to die. Governments and corporations don’t want to depopulate the world. They make less money, off of a smaller population! Why do you think that grocery chains avoid paying income taxes, but love accepting food stamps? Why do you think that the US government gives out more tax breaks and subsidies, to those who have the most children? Part of it is Christianity, and part of it is greed.

It is precisely because of greed, that none of the anti-vaccine theories make any kind of sense. They view powerful forces of this world, as some sort of devils, or Hollywood villains, rather than those, realistically concerned, with money and power.

There are some politicians who are doing irrational things, like urging their supporters not to take anti-COVID precautions, because it became a culture war issue. But I can assure you, the pharmaceutical industry doesn’t want you dead. If your lungs are crippled for life, by Covid-19, and you have to buy more of their products, I’m sure they would appreciate that. But as far as preventing death, yes, they do have a financial interest in that(and because governments are paying for the vaccines, with your money, they like it).
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hakarl
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:20 am 
 

Quote:
As it stands, the vaccination can't even guarantee 100% safety in everyone

This seems to be a common misconception when it comes to vaccines in general. The vaccines are not for you, the individual. They are for your community. You, the individual, take the vaccine to give your community a better immunity. Shit like covid spreads from person to person, it doesn't materialize out of thin air and get you sick. The more the people in your community are immune to catching it, the less likely you are to eventually catch it. It doesn't matter that the vaccine doesn't make the individual 100% immune to covid, as long as enough people take the vaccine to block the chains of infection within your community.

Masks are the same thing. And I reckon this is one of the biggest reasons why the rest of the world is completely bewildered watching the US put a stick in the front wheel of its own bike and fall over in a gory mess over a viral epidemic.
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:39 am 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
The whole ivermectin thing was what really made me realize just how blatantly anti scientific pro vaccine people were being. That, for me, was the moment that delineated between those who actually know medicine and those who hear a headline and report what the headline said.

Can you or anyone explain this position further? Ivermectin is for treating parasitic infections, not viruses. Despite some early trials and even a few more recent ones indicating it may have some positive effect, there is zero question in the scientific community that it is less effective than the vaccine. Which is the reason it was so widely mocked by what you call the "anti-scientific pro vaccine crowd." People were using Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine as a substitute for the vaccine because it doesn't have the Mark Of The Beast or whatever the fuck. Less concerned are they that people may take especially human-apportioned Ivermectin as a supplemental treatment to a particularly bad COVID-19 infection.
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joppek
Veteran

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:25 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Quote:
As it stands, the vaccination can't even guarantee 100% safety in everyone

This seems to be a common misconception when it comes to vaccines in general. The vaccines are not for you, the individual. They are for your community. You, the individual, take the vaccine to give your community a better immunity. Shit like covid spreads from person to person, it doesn't materialize out of thin air and get you sick. The more the people in your community are immune to catching it, the less likely you are to eventually catch it. It doesn't matter that the vaccine doesn't make the individual 100% immune to covid, as long as enough people take the vaccine to block the chains of infection within your community.


furthermore, no vaccine, drug, or remedy of any kind has ever been, or will ever be 100% effective - that whole argument is a demonstration of monumental idiocy

any hope for scientific discussion seems pretty far fetched with that kind of thinking - you can hardly expect bayesian analyses of data from people who can only understand vaccine efficacy as binary
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:44 am 
 

All this stuff about how "the vaccine isn't 100% effective, so they lied" or whatever other variations, all of it just shows how the politicization has poisoned all the discourse around the virus. The majority of those people, if you let them talk long enough, will end up going to "the virus isn't that bad at all/it's a hoax/the media wants to control us" or some shit.
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marktheviktor
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:41 am
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:54 pm 
 

I think of the vaccine as like a bulletproof vest: it won’t stop you from getting hit, but having it will make it significantly less likely that you will die as result if you are hit.

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Sword of Skelos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:37 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:53 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
All this stuff about how "the vaccine isn't 100% effective, so they lied" or whatever other variations, all of it just shows how the politicization has poisoned all the discourse around the virus.

Yes, this discourse is poisoned, so it's up to everyone to do their own digging, and engage with others in less aggressive discourse.
Quote:
The majority of those people, if you let them talk long enough, will end up going to "the virus isn't that bad at all

It affects people in wildly different ways depending on a lot of factors. Some not so bad, some terrible.
Quote:
/it's a hoax

The 'turn the freakin frogs gay' crowd is laughable, true.
Quote:
/the media wants to control us" or some shit.

Well yeah of course they do. I'm surprised I'd even have make a case at this point. When the ivermectin debate came up with Rogan, and I heard it was horse dewormer, I had my suspicions. I checked out wikipedia for some minimal effort background and in the first paragraph it mentioned ivermectin was being trialed as a way of treating covid symptoms. Also, that it is a cheap, safe, effective human medicine, that began as a veterinary medicine and still used for both. That doesn't sound like a stupid thing to use, even if the effectiveness is in question as long as a doctor is overseeing your treatment, as was the case with Rogan. The media tried it's usual classist bs and made it out as a dumb hick thing. The wikipedia page has since changed at least once, and now any neutral language about ivermectin and the treatment of Covid is buried way deep in the article.

There are scientists who are promoting the drug, but it's heavily politicized, because money is to be made. Here is one who made a video on the subject.

If this isn't complete bullshit, it's a bombshell. He has links to referenced articles in the video description. They are not bullshit studies from bullshit organizations. I have not yet had time to go over them holy shit I'm busy.

From what I can gather, I believe the following, but of course would change my mind if given decent reason-
-Everyone is going to get covid, or a variant, even if vaxxed.
-The vax increases resistance to spread, but this is lessening.
-Getting the full virus creates much higher resistance.
-Getting the vax greatly reduces symptoms.
-Masks lower infection rates - the whole thing is so politicized I don't know where to get solid numbers from though.
-Ivermectin that isn't a literal horse pill is safe, and probably mitigated the disease. Maybe mitigates it a lot.
-Pfizer is making a new drug that is very expensive that does approximately what ivermectin (and maybe some other drugs) does at a hugely reduced cost. This is suspicious as fuck.

Look. I got my double jab, I wear a mask. Big Pharma has created a leaky vax that is better than nothing, but hyped to all fuck. That reduces infection rates and lowers the effects of the disease, but it's not a magic bullet. A cheap drug may do what a Pfizer money grab drug does... and some people may have known this for a while. CNN is brought to you by Pfizer.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:35 am 
 

Dude, John Campbell is a youtube grifter who has repeatedly promoted false/poorly researched information on COVID-19. He's an ex-nurse with a doctorate in education who now pays the bills by putting a legitimate face on the anti-vaxx culture war movement. For fuck's sake, stop taking medical advice from youtubers.
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hakarl
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:20 am 
 

Quote:
If this isn't complete bullshit, it's a bombshell.

Well, you said it. :lol: Big, if true.

From what I can tell, the "it's so politicised" is a short-hand for when people are unable to find information that doesn't challenge their biases. It reeks of the "both sides" rhetoric, which in contemporary American politics ignores that one of the sides is completely detached from reality.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:19 am 
 

I just meant that it turned political as soon as Trump tried to cover his own ass early on to save his re-election campaign and acted like it'd be gone in a few weeks - then it all turned into 'the government is trying to control us with this' and everything was shot. Predictable really.
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Osore
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
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Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:47 pm 
 

Sword of Skelos wrote:
From what I can gather, I believe the following, but of course would change my mind if given decent reason-
-Ivermectin that isn't a literal horse pill is safe, and probably mitigated the disease. Maybe mitigates it a lot.
-Pfizer is making a new drug that is very expensive that does approximately what ivermectin (and maybe some other drugs) does at a hugely reduced cost. This is suspicious as fuck.

Pfizer's drug target is viral Mpro protease, while it is only hypothesised that Ivermectin acts on importins, which simply means they differ in mechanism. As far as I know, there is no evidence about ivermectin's safety in treating COVID.
Yavuz, S. (2021). Antiviral treatment of COVID-19: An update. Turkish journal of medical sciences.

Sword of Skelos wrote:
-Getting the full virus creates much higher resistance.

Actually, natural immunity gained after the viral infection is the lowest compared to the vaccine immunity and hybrid immunity i.e. the immunity created after the viral infection + vaccination:

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:33 am 
 

What is up with all of these "I'm not an anti-vaxxer, BUT" people who take a dump in the thread, others clean up their mess, then they're nowhere to be found?
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Sword of Skelos
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:37 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:59 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Dude, John Campbell is a youtube grifter

Grifter is one of those red flag words.

Quote:

Why should I care what newshub says. Who are they? They mention Campbell, then quote some other guy who they claim is an anti-vaxxer (and I couldn't be arsed to read the article linked), and another link to a holocaust denier. So yeah... done with that publication if that's how they roll. I can just read Buzzfeed if I want that. It's all corporate crap.

Quote:
He's an ex-nurse with a doctorate in education

Yeah that's all right there in his youtube bio.

Quote:
who now pays the bills by putting a legitimate face on the anti-vaxx culture war movement. For fuck's sake, stop taking medical advice from youtubers.

I don't take advice just from Campbell... he's just one I cited. I am looking over the references he provided as I can. Where do you get your news besides the rag you cited. The "authorative sources". Youtube is as heavily censored as anywhere.

Osore wrote:
Sword of Skelos wrote:
From what I can gather, I believe the following, but of course would change my mind if given decent reason-
-Ivermectin that isn't a literal horse pill is safe, and probably mitigated the disease. Maybe mitigates it a lot.
-Pfizer is making a new drug that is very expensive that does approximately what ivermectin (and maybe some other drugs) does at a hugely reduced cost. This is suspicious as fuck.

Pfizer's drug target is viral Mpro protease, while it is only hypothesised that Ivermectin acts on importins, which simply means they differ in mechanism. As far as I know, there is no evidence about ivermectin's safety in treating COVID.
Yavuz, S. (2021). Antiviral treatment of COVID-19: An update. Turkish journal of medical sciences.


Then I'm covered. Just got my son vaxxed today. I will check out the study.

darkeningday wrote:
What is up with all of these "I'm not an anti-vaxxer, BUT" people who take a dump in the thread, others clean up their mess, then they're nowhere to be found?

Who?

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:33 pm 
 

So obviously everyone has heard of Omicron now and that there was a case of a vaccinated person in California getting it but having mild symptoms.

Hopefully it's no worse than Delta, and so far there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to say whether it's worse or not. Fauci thinks it's not more transmisable which is good if true.

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Curious_dead
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:48 am 
 

Vaccinated people were getting COVID even before Omicron. So that's not surprising. News about the variant come fast and I'm not sure what to believe yet, because I think even the experts aren't certain. From what I gathered - it's more transmissible, but it's also less deadly even among unvaccinated, and people who got a booster shot didn't catch it even in close proximity to someone who had it.

Nothing feels certain yet, but I think we may still be lucky and won't see a death toll like before.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:07 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Vaccinated people were getting COVID even before Omicron. So that's not surprising. News about the variant come fast and I'm not sure what to believe yet, because I think even the experts aren't certain. From what I gathered - it's more transmissible, but it's also less deadly even among unvaccinated, and people who got a booster shot didn't catch it even in close proximity to someone who had it.

Nothing feels certain yet, but I think we may still be lucky and won't see a death toll like before.


I heard it was LESS transmissible than Delta, so not sure where you heard it was worse. But yeah, too soon to tell, but it seems like it might be less severe than delta, or at least not worse. If it is less severe it probably won't be around long just like the alpha strain isn't around much anymore as strains compete for hosts and the delta will beat it by being stronger. Not that that's a good thing...

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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:24 pm 
 

Its transmissibility has yet TBD but it does seem to be burning through South Africa even faster than Delta.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:35 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Its transmissibility has yet TBD but it does seem to be burning through South Africa even faster than Delta.


Is it killing more people though? Doesn't necessarily seem to be any worse but it's probably too soon to tell.

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oldmetalhead
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Location: Helltown, United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:44 pm 
 

Three cases reported today in Baltimore along with the cases in Cali, so it's coast to coast now.

Get your toilet paper...

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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:05 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Its transmissibility has yet TBD but it does seem to be burning through South Africa even faster than Delta.


Is it killing more people though? Doesn't necessarily seem to be any worse but it's probably too soon to tell.

So far its symptoms have been mild-to-moderate, much less severe than Delta. "So far" being the operative phrase.

Transmissibility =/= deadliness though.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:07 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Its transmissibility has yet TBD but it does seem to be burning through South Africa even faster than Delta.


Is it killing more people though? Doesn't necessarily seem to be any worse but it's probably too soon to tell.

So far its symptoms have been mild-to-moderate, much less severe than Delta. "So far" being the operative phrase.

Transmissibility =/= deadliness though.


If it's more transimissible but considerably less deadly then I think that's better overall. More people getting sick but being ok is better IMO than fewer (but still many) people dying and having long term effects. We'll have to say what happens, but so far, sounds like I'd rather get Omicron than Delta, even as a vaccinated person.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:16 am 
 

I think I'm going to get a booster shot. Might as well, since I'm going to be visiting family soon and for protection against this new variant, even though it doesn't seem to be as deadly as other variants.
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Sword of Skelos
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:23 pm 
 

Trevor Noah's questioning of the Moderna CEO was pretty mild, but the reaction has been hilarious.

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narsilianshard
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:30 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
I think I'm going to get a booster shot. Might as well, since I'm going to be visiting family soon and for protection against this new variant, even though it doesn't seem to be as deadly as other variants.

My girlfriend got her booster yesterday, I'm getting mine next week. New study just out shows boosters are very effective against Omicron. Still early days, and Pfizer conducted the study, so take it with a grain of salt, but so far everything points to boosters working very well, even on new strains. Just annoying this may mean having to get a booster every six months for the next... rest of our lives?
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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:13 pm 
 

I just had Covid a couple weeks ago.

Zero symptoms. Zero anything, but the Rapid and lab test both came back positive.

I'm not gonna hurry out for the booster at this point, because I'm pretty safe for now with the antibodies with everything I've heard.
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~Guest 280883
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Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:30 pm 
 

CoconutBackwards wrote:
I just had Covid a couple weeks ago.

Zero symptoms. Zero anything, but the Rapid and lab test both came back positive.

I'm not gonna hurry out for the booster at this point, because I'm pretty safe for now with the antibodies with everything I've heard.


Isn't the combination of the booster shot and natural immunity from having had the disease in fact the most effective protection?

Anyway, I got my booster shot a few days ago. I got Pfizer each of the three times and I must be the luckiest asshole on the planet - no side effects whatsoever, not the first two times, not now.

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CoconutBackwards
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:59 am 
 

Yea, from what I've heard with the antibodies I have from having Covid I'll get the booster at some point, but I'm not real concerned at the moment.

You got three Pfizer shots? I didn't know people got three, unless you're saying the booster was Pfizer.
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~Guest 280883
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Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:28 am 
 

CoconutBackwards wrote:
Yea, from what I've heard with the antibodies I have from having Covid I'll get the booster at some point, but I'm not real concerned at the moment.

You got three Pfizer shots? I didn't know people got three, unless you're saying the booster was Pfizer.


Yeah, three Pfizer shots.

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MeavyHetal
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:43 am 
 

Got my booster shot Monday, and the side effects were much milder than they were with the second shot.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:48 pm 
 

I just got one too. I don't think there were any side effects at all besides the typical sore arm.
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Byrain
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Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:50 pm 
 

Here is an in depth discussion about C19 policy with Peter McCullough who is a doctor and Bret Weinstein who is an evolutionary biologist. I found it rather informative if anyone is interested.

https://odysee.com/@BretWeinstein:f/cov ... arkhorse:e

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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:08 pm 
 

Why in God's name would you post a video from Peter "Hydroxychloroquine" McCullough and fucking Bret "kills his own fans" Weinstein. Like seriously, these two guys along with Jimmy Dore and that Ivermectin doctor are the four riders of the Covid apocalypse. This is one step away from posting a qanon video in the politics thread with the header "here's an informative discussion about what's happening in American politics today."

And Bret Weinstein may be an evolutionary biologist but he's best known as a member of the Intellectual Dark Web, aka neoreactionary cranks.
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Byrain
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:29 pm 
 

What do you think about the contents of the video? None of those things you have claimed any basis in reality.

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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:45 pm 
 

I didn't watch the video for the same reason you wouldn't watch a 1+ hour video about politics by David Icke or a mathematics lesson from the Timecube guy.

Everything I said was factually correct besides the corollary. Peter McCullough is the source of the malaria drug as a miracle cure for Covid among other things, and Bret Weinstein is even worse; see their respective Wikipedia pages for extensive, meticulously documented sources. Bret also killed one of his own fans by pushing him not to get the Covid vax; I can find the reference if you really need it.

I apologize for the hostility but I have lost people I really care about because of covid misinformation and lies, and to see someone post something from these assholes about covid raises my cortisol levels.
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