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Benedict Donald
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Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 3066
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:34 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Of course they flip-flop. They can say "white is good, black is bad" and the next day claim the exact opposite, and their base follows suit. How many times have the Republicans, especially under Trump and after, claimed something and its opposite?

Like, COVID is just a cold, but also, Trump deserves praise for pushing the vaccine, but the vaccine is bad and you should avoid it at all cost, but COVID is deadly and you should take ivermectin to treat it, but also lockdowns are useless, and also AOC is dumb for going to Florida and not wearing mask on that one pic, and how dare people be uncivil towards Trump, but at the same time I hope AOC dies of COVID and here's an anime video of GOPers murdering her... It's like a conga line of contradictions.

Al Franken makes a (bad taste) joke and has his hands close to a woman's breasts? He should be expelled! Clinton has been unfaithful and that shows he doesn't have the moral character to lead the nation. But we'll support a known womanizer who has had sex with a woman while his wife was recovering from giving birth and paid her to keep quiet about it, and who bragged about grabbing women by the pussy and who barged into Miss Teen America dressing rooms, and who's accused of rape by dozens of women! Also, Clinton was pal with Epstein, but that proves nothing, yet Clinton was also pal with Epstein and he should be hanged because of course that proves everything! We'll also support a guy implicated in a possible sex trafficking issue (Gaetz), a guy so sleazy he wasn't allowed at the mall cause he harrassed teenagers (Roy Moore) and a guy who hushed a case of abuse and protected the abusers (Gym Jordan)! All super neat people! But did you know Hillary ran a child sex exploitation ring from a pizzeria's non-existent basement and that Hunter Biden's laptop contains tons of incriminating evidence?

It's so tiring...


It's beyond tiring. And the nation has moved beyond rational discourse -- none can occur due to the two "realities". It's difficult to envision a scenario where things improve before completely bottoming out (which hasn't happened yet, but appears destined to).

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Sword of Skelos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:37 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:03 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
She'd lose because she's a shitty politician with a shitty history, zero charisma and despite being the literal VPOTUS, still poor name recognition with anyone to the left of Susan Collins.


Yeah...

Quote:
I'm not saying she'd be a bad president or that I wouldn't vote for her...


What?

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:08 pm 
 

DD isn't your typical US voter. A typical US voter might consider voting for Trump, or at least voting for a Republican. The folks on this forum very likely wouldn't. He's just saying that, even if the Dems put up a terrible candidate (again) he'll vote for them, but the typical US voter might not.
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:23 pm 
 

The American right's real strength and what has allowed them to gain so much is that they know their audience. They know what language to use to get their audience riled up and also have expert command of the Internet and Internet culture as a medium for acquiring followers. The Democrats have little to none of that. They aren't taken very seriously on the Internet and because of the Internet's prominence in our lives, that is a critical area to win over. This is why I don't think the Democrats have much of a chance of winning much come 2024, and in all likelihood will just run someone that is, for lack of a better word, boring. The right has assholes like Madison Cawthorn, but at least he's an asshole who's young and knows how to get people riled up.
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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:38 pm 
 

Another difference is that the right tries to win on culture war. They use language about how they will trigger the left, and how things like Dr Seuss and Starbucks cups are not going an issue under their management. And there are always new boogeymen (as well as old ones).

Meanwhile, Democrats try to win "politically". They need to deliver results.

Results don't matter when the issues are made up or frivolous, but when you run on policies, it's much more important. And with assholes like Manchin and Sinema making scoring points on issues harder...

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hakarl
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8816
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:42 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
The American right's real strength and what has allowed them to gain so much is that they know their audience. They know what language to use to get their audience riled up and also have expert command of the Internet and Internet culture as a medium for acquiring followers. The Democrats have little to none of that. They aren't taken very seriously on the Internet and because of the Internet's prominence in our lives, that is a critical area to win over. This is why I don't think the Democrats have much of a chance of winning much come 2024, and in all likelihood will just run someone that is, for lack of a better word, boring. The right has assholes like Madison Cawthorn, but at least he's an asshole who's young and knows how to get people riled up.

The difficulty here is the factor of critical thinking. That's one big factor that separates the cultists from the rest.

The communication and community work from the far right wing has been absolute garbage. The reason it engages so many people is that they don't think about it critically. What works is that they have politicians who more or less openly campaign for a white supremacist, sexist theocracy, which is the only thing that matters to them. It doesn't matter that if the Democrats are a million times better with formulating their message and using internet platforms to reach people, because so many people that they're trying to reach think critically about it, and the truth is that Democrats are hyporcrites. People know it. So many people only get excited about voting for a candidate like Biden because he's running against a would-be fascist dictator.
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Ex El Ex El Ex
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:53 pm
Posts: 328
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:48 am 
 

A candidate could be literally the second coming of Jesus and Repubs would vote against the guy if he had a D next to his name. The base has been conditioned to not accept anything that doesn't come from pre-approved sources.
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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:07 am 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
A candidate could be literally the second coming of Jesus and Repubs would vote against the guy if he had a D next to his name. The base has been conditioned to not accept anything that doesn't come from pre-approved sources.


Yeah, I don't think modern-day Republicans would vote for a brown-skinned commie. Two things come to mind: the (real) woman who (really) said that if God appeared and told him Trump had colluded with Russia, she'd still check with Trump to be sure; and the scene in the series American Gods where a border patrol literally guns down Jesus trying to help people. Republicans are as much Christians as it gives them a frame through which to manipulate unthinking masses, while also giving them a position of moral superiority.

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JCP524
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:56 pm 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
A candidate could be literally the second coming of Jesus and Repubs would vote against the guy if he had a D next to his name. The base has been conditioned to not accept anything that doesn't come from pre-approved sources.


How would one change that?

the people you are referring to are going to seek out entertainment that confirms their positions/beliefs.

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Benedict Donald
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 3066
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:55 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Another difference is that the right tries to win on culture war. They use language about how they will trigger the left, and how things like Dr Seuss and Starbucks cups are not going an issue under their management. And there are always new boogeymen (as well as old ones).

Meanwhile, Democrats try to win "politically". They need to deliver results.

Results don't matter when the issues are made up or frivolous, but when you run on policies, it's much more important. And with assholes like Manchin and Sinema making scoring points on issues harder...


The American right and the GOP are fantastic marketers and have been for a half-a-century. Heck, they went full steam ahead with the use of Direct Marketing in the early 70s, when only major retailers were even dabbling in it.

They have a message and beat you over the head with it, incessantly, without fail. They create the narrative while Dems only react to it.

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Byrain
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 1306
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:36 am 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
A candidate could be literally the second coming of Jesus and Repubs would vote against the guy if he had a D next to his name. The base has been conditioned to not accept anything that doesn't come from pre-approved sources.


This goes both ways, Democrats would never vote for someone with a R next to their name regardless of how good of a politician they would be or not. Of course the reality is on a national level both parties are worthless and are not going to help anyone other than their corporate backers.

The game is divide and conquer and based on the recent replies in this thread its sadly very effective for at least some metalheads...

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Ex El Ex El Ex
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:53 pm
Posts: 328
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:49 am 
 

Byrain wrote:
Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
A candidate could be literally the second coming of Jesus and Repubs would vote against the guy if he had a D next to his name. The base has been conditioned to not accept anything that doesn't come from pre-approved sources.

This goes both ways, Democrats would never vote for someone with a R next to their name regardless of how good of a politician they would be or not. Of course the reality is on a national level both parties are worthless and are not going to help anyone other than their corporate backers.

The game is divide and conquer and based on the recent replies in this thread its sadly very effective for at least some metalheads...

/enlightenedcentrism, although hey, considering your fondness for coddling Nazis as stated in the AMG thread, I shouldn't be surprised.

Dems are a bunch of spineless, milquetoast corporate shills, but they're not the American Taliban at least. Incredibly low bar to clear, I know, but that's where US politics are at this point. Saying both parties are exactly the same is just a false equivalence, argue in good faith or don't bother. Also, fucking LOL at your attempt to present yourself as some kind of smarty pants for spouting lukewarm "both sides are the same" clichés, you really showed me there.
JCP524 wrote:
Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
A candidate could be literally the second coming of Jesus and Repubs would vote against the guy if he had a D next to his name. The base has been conditioned to not accept anything that doesn't come from pre-approved sources.

How would one change that?

the people you are referring to are going to seek out entertainment that confirms their positions/beliefs.

You can't change it, America as it currently exists is doomed.
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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:10 am 
 

Byrain wrote:
Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
A candidate could be literally the second coming of Jesus and Repubs would vote against the guy if he had a D next to his name. The base has been conditioned to not accept anything that doesn't come from pre-approved sources.


This goes both ways, Democrats would never vote for someone with a R next to their name regardless of how good of a politician they would be or not. Of course the reality is on a national level both parties are worthless and are not going to help anyone other than their corporate backers.

The game is divide and conquer and based on the recent replies in this thread its sadly very effective for at least some metalheads...


Yeah, well only one party strips women of their rights, only one opposes equality, only one opposes education, raising minimum wages, environmental measures, customer protection regulations, unions... The Democrats have a lot of flaws, flaws that are common to almost every single political aprty on the planet, namely - they need to worry about reelection, they bicker because they don't agree, some of them are incompetent, some of them are crooks, some of them are idiots. Yet only one party is seemingly dominated by soulless, criminal human garbage. It's like complaining that the Democrats are a bad cold while the Republicans are terminal testicular cancer.

Also, the point, I think, was the hypocrisy of being very religious (almost to the point of zealotry), yet their own messiah could come and it would still be party over values, party over what's good for them. They're approaching politics like one would approach a sports team.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35180
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:17 am 
 

I'll probably vote for Democrats again in my life, because yes, generally they're better than the Republicans. That said I am so fucking tired of these corporate centrist ones. If nothing else I'll focus more on trying to support the actual left leaning ones (who routinely get shit on by party elites.)
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LunarisIsDead
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:14 pm
Posts: 199
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:31 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I'll probably vote for Democrats again in my life, because yes, generally they're better than the Republicans. That said I am so fucking tired of these corporate centrist ones. If nothing else I'll focus more on trying to support the actual left leaning ones (who routinely get shit on by party elites.)


B-b-but we can't do that! Democrats like AOC and Bernie Sanders don't stand a chance in an election, they're too radical! Our only hope against the ever-present threat of fascism are people who maintain the american status quo!

Sorry, I'll stop. :-P But yes, despite my hatred of the party, Democrats are the only feasible alternative to Republicans in a presidential election and often the only alternative in smaller ones. I'll always be in favor of more Green Party and SPUSA candidates in state and local elections, though.
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Sword of Skelos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:37 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:02 pm 
 

Byrain wrote:
The game is divide and conquer and based on the recent replies in this thread its sadly very effective for at least some metalheads...


Pretty much. I've been a a (mostly) solid NDP voter since my 20s and even as a lefty I'm ready to throw up my hands in this thread.

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mjollnir
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 2056
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:19 pm 
 

Byrain wrote:
Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
A candidate could be literally the second coming of Jesus and Repubs would vote against the guy if he had a D next to his name. The base has been conditioned to not accept anything that doesn't come from pre-approved sources.


This goes both ways, Democrats would never vote for someone with a R next to their name regardless of how good of a politician they would be or not. Of course the reality is on a national level both parties are worthless and are not going to help anyone other than their corporate backers.

The game is divide and conquer and based on the recent replies in this thread its sadly very effective for at least some metalheads...

Your statement in bold is very far from the truth. I live in Western PA, part of the rust belt....lifelong Union Democrats (mostly white, blue collar, and barely educated) overwhelmingly voted for Donald Trump. As it stands now, the only side playing divide and conquer politics are the Republicans. President Biden was right in one thing.....asking what the Republicans are for because they seem to be against everything, especially anything pertaining to civil liberties and equality. Their demagoguery works seems to work better...thankfully NOT on metal heads. Still can't see how any metal head in their right mind could be a Trumpanzee.
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 746
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:17 am 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
Curious_dead wrote:
Another difference is that the right tries to win on culture war. They use language about how they will trigger the left, and how things like Dr Seuss and Starbucks cups are not going an issue under their management. And there are always new boogeymen (as well as old ones).

Meanwhile, Democrats try to win "politically". They need to deliver results.

Results don't matter when the issues are made up or frivolous, but when you run on policies, it's much more important. And with assholes like Manchin and Sinema making scoring points on issues harder...


The American right and the GOP are fantastic marketers and have been for a half-a-century. Heck, they went full steam ahead with the use of Direct Marketing in the early 70s, when only major retailers were even dabbling in it.

They have a message and beat you over the head with it, incessantly, without fail. They create the narrative while Dems only react to it.

I must confess your comment really surprised me, especially with that final sentence, because to me it's quite clear that it's the other way around: Dems create the narrative while GOP reacts. Examples: Dems deemed Kyle Rittenhouse a racist murderous manic, so GOP deem him a Patriot ordained by God. Dems say "Defund Police," GOP say "Back the Blue" (It doesn't matter what the Dems actually meant when they said "Defund the Police," all it did was cause the conversation to happen). Dems are for teaching CRT, GOP are against it (It didn't matter if Dems actually knew what CRT even was, but now the conversation is happening and now everyone has at least have heard of CRT).

It's always Dems who have started these conversations and thus establishing what the narrative is, while the Conservatives are usually behind the curve and thus have no option but to react to what the Dems are saying. And it does not matter to the Dems if these narratives are true or false, so long as they start the conversation and control the narrative, that's all that matters. The moment they lose grasp over the controlled narrative however, they just move on to the next subject, thus showing that they never truly cared for these things; they just want to seem like the righteous, virtuous ones to the public, while the GOP are confused and simply follow the Dem's lead and react.

But what the Dems seem to have ultimately done however is confuse everyone, including their own voters.

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mjollnir
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 2056
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:11 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
I must confess your comment really surprised me, especially with that final sentence, because to me it's quite clear that it's the other way around: Dems create the narrative while GOP reacts. Examples: Dems deemed Kyle Rittenhouse a racist murderous manic, so GOP deem him a Patriot ordained by God. Dems say "Defund Police," GOP say "Back the Blue" (It doesn't matter what the Dems actually meant when they said "Defund the Police," all it did was cause the conversation to happen). Dems are for teaching CRT, GOP are against it (It didn't matter if Dems actually knew what CRT even was, but now the conversation is happening and now everyone has at least have heard of CRT).

It's always Dems who have started these conversations and thus establishing what the narrative is, while the Conservatives are usually behind the curve and thus have no option but to react to what the Dems are saying. And it does not matter to the Dems if these narratives are true or false, so long as they start the conversation and control the narrative, that's all that matters. The moment they lose grasp over the controlled narrative however, they just move on to the next subject, thus showing that they never truly cared for these things; they just want to seem like the righteous, virtuous ones to the public, while the GOP are confused and simply follow the Dem's lead and react.

But what the Dems seem to have ultimately done however is confuse everyone, including their own voters.

I don't even know where to begin with this post. I'll start by saying WRONG! The difference is that the narrative created by democrats, especially when it comes to social issues, are a reaction to the injustices they see. Defund the Police started because of the abuse of power by those charged with enforcing laws and protecting our citizens, not killing them. Black Lives Matter rose from those incidents as a reaction. It was Trump and his Trumpanzees that created the false narrative that they were terrorists and racist. It was the Trumpanzees that started the narrative that the people protesting George Floyd were anti-American and terrorists. That's when an impressionable 17 year old, who came a from a family that believed that narrative, took up arms against his fellow citizens.

CRT is something that began in the late 60s and points out how American society and culture is based on racism....which it is! Most victimless crime laws on the books are due to trying to change the behavior of the newly freed slaves.....if they can't enslave them they'll find ways they they can still keep them in chains. It only became part of the narrative when Trump found out that part if that train of thought was part of diversity and inclusion training for Federal employees.

Bottom line.....the division that plagues America right now is based on the false narratives that the republicans created immediately after November 4, 2008. They are against everything but will only piece meal you what they are for.....because most of what they are truly for, the American people wouldn't have it!
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:38 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Examples: Dems deemed Kyle Rittenhouse a racist murderous manic, so GOP deem him a Patriot ordained by God. Dems say "Defund Police," GOP say "Back the Blue" (It doesn't matter what the Dems actually meant when they said "Defund the Police," all it did was cause the conversation to happen). Dems are for teaching CRT, GOP are against it (It didn't matter if Dems actually knew what CRT even was, but now the conversation is happening and now everyone has at least have heard of CRT).

What in the seven hells is this nonsense? Dems didn't "start" any of this. Literally every example is wrong.

Kyle started things by shooting and killing people. The "defund the police" movement (which isn't even really a Democrats thing, most Dems are pro-police) was a reaction to widespread and systemic police brutality. And CRT was already taught in universities for decades, it was just the GOP who suddenly started making up a bunch of fearmongering bullshit about it about how "Dems want to teach kids to hate the US!!" when nothing like that happened.
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AcidWorm
Veteran

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 3277
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:40 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Benedict Donald wrote:
Curious_dead wrote:
Another difference is that the right tries to win on culture war. They use language about how they will trigger the left, and how things like Dr Seuss and Starbucks cups are not going an issue under their management. And there are always new boogeymen (as well as old ones).

Meanwhile, Democrats try to win "politically". They need to deliver results.

Results don't matter when the issues are made up or frivolous, but when you run on policies, it's much more important. And with assholes like Manchin and Sinema making scoring points on issues harder...


The American right and the GOP are fantastic marketers and have been for a half-a-century. Heck, they went full steam ahead with the use of Direct Marketing in the early 70s, when only major retailers were even dabbling in it.

They have a message and beat you over the head with it, incessantly, without fail. They create the narrative while Dems only react to it.

I must confess your comment really surprised me, especially with that final sentence, because to me it's quite clear that it's the other way around: Dems create the narrative while GOP reacts. Examples: Dems deemed Kyle Rittenhouse a racist murderous manic, so GOP deem him a Patriot ordained by God. Dems say "Defund Police," GOP say "Back the Blue" (It doesn't matter what the Dems actually meant when they said "Defund the Police," all it did was cause the conversation to happen). Dems are for teaching CRT, GOP are against it (It didn't matter if Dems actually knew what CRT even was, but now the conversation is happening and now everyone has at least have heard of CRT).

It's always Dems who have started these conversations and thus establishing what the narrative is, while the Conservatives are usually behind the curve and thus have no option but to react to what the Dems are saying. And it does not matter to the Dems if these narratives are true or false, so long as they start the conversation and control the narrative, that's all that matters. The moment they lose grasp over the controlled narrative however, they just move on to the next subject, thus showing that they never truly cared for these things; they just want to seem like the righteous, virtuous ones to the public, while the GOP are confused and simply follow the Dem's lead and react.

But what the Dems seem to have ultimately done however is confuse everyone, including their own voters.


This really is not accurate. Republicans are all about conflict, and reactionism. That is their bread and butter. It energizes their base, and keeps feeding the red meat to the base to keep them in perpetual panic, and lizard brain mode. This is because Republican ideas are not popular enough without using conflict against Blacks, Immigrants, Democrats etc to be competitive. Hence how McConnel said to a reporter that the Republicans have no agenda and just to vote for them for the midterms. ""That is a very good question, and I'll let you know when we take it back," he replied, adding that in the course of any campaign, each Republican candidate would formulate their own agenda and take their own positions. "The election this fall is a referendum on this all-Democratic government."" Opposition to Democrats and subservience to Trump is all they are. And, opposition to CRT is just thinly veiled racism. That is all it is. Banning it is an example of structural racism. Ron Densatis, Florida's Governor is even trying to pass a bill right now to ban teachers from teaching anything that makes white people feel uncomfortable. Obviously, this is very racist. "A bill pushed by Republican Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis that would prohibit public schools and private businesses from making white people feel “discomfort” when they teach students or train employees about discrimination in the nation’s past received its first approval Tuesday." Mconnel also the other day said African Americans are not Americans.

Just the other day this happened
Quote:
For those wondering why Chris Sununu said no to the NRSC and Mitch McConnell who begged him to run for Senate, he answered that question for us today.

The New Hampshire governor absolutely torched Senate Republicans for their lack of vision, failure to deliver for Americans last time they had power, and more.

Washington Examiner: Chris Sununu explains going from ‘pretty close’ to no on New Hampshire Senate bid

“Everything changed after the governor consulted with Republican senators about the aspects of serving on Capitol Hill and what to expect for at least the first two years on the job. Sununu did not like what he heard.”

“The governor said the message from virtually every GOP senator he chatted with — and he chatted with most of them — was that they plan to do little more with the majority they are fighting to win this November than obstruct President Joe Biden until, ‘hopefully,’ 2024 ushers a Republican into the White House. ‘It bothered me that they were OK with that,’ Sununu said.”

“‘It’s problematic for Republicans when any Republican harps on what might have happened in 2020 or harps on what could be in 2024. If you focus on 2020 or you focus on ’24, you’re going to miss ’22,’ Sununu said. ‘You’re not earning a single new independent voter or new voter at all by talking about the elections of 2020. And right now, you can’t govern if you don’t win.’”

“More than that, Sununu was ‘bothered’ by Republicans’ seeming inability to answer this question: ‘I said, ‘OK, so if we’re going to get stuff done if we win the White House back, why didn’t you do it in 2017 and 2018?’ How did the Republicans Sununu spoke with answer his challenge? ‘Crickets. Yeah, crickets,’ the governor said. ‘They had no answer.’”



And, in other news how the heck have these people not been arrested yet? If I commit a crime, and start bragging about it I will get arrested fast. There is more than enough to charge these people with a crime, and tack on more charges later as the investigations continue. Put a gag order on them to. In the meantime every day trust in the DOJ just keeps getting worse, and worse, and these people continue to plot to steal the 2024 election. I was watching this interview last night, which began with Peter Navarro continuing "The Big Lie" and that everything they did to steal the election was legal even though it was all obviously illegal. Boris Epshteyn was just as bad. I feel like Republicans are abusing freedom of speech so badly we are going to have to start placing more restrictions on it...

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Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 842
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:21 pm 
 

I said some things a few pages ago which were probably a bit overboard, but I still think the logic behind them is correct:

Republicans (well any right wing demagoguery really; they're just the latest example) run on two things: fear and vengeance. These are probably the two most visceral and base emotions in the human psyche. Much of the GOP narrative can be boiled down to two basic messages: 1) you will be microchipped and your land given to the brown people, and 2) get even and own the libtards.

History shows that once you get a situation where enough people feel vulnerable/afraid, or incredibly uneasy with the world and the future, they want simple answers and basic solutions. Fear and vengeance are (as mentioned above) so hardwired into the survival based responses of the human psyche as go-to buttons to press when one feels endangered in such circumstances that once the collective engages them it's pretty hard to stop and usually things end up working all the way to the bottom.

Germany in the 1930s is the clearest example of such a scenario in living memory, and painfully illustrates the only solution to such a crisis: take the dog that's biting everyone out back and shoot it. However as the 1930s showed, people are reticent to take this step unless their hand is forced. At the end of the day, however, it was not diplomacy or appeasement that brought about the Nazi's eventual downfall, and with hindsight it was very clear from about 1936 onwards that straight confrontation would be the only route to take.

It may be that such measures will have to be taken again, and hindsight will similarly show that long before any action was eventually taken, all other routes were unlikely to work.

Believe me I don't like this conclusion, but this movie has been played before, and the script is familiar.

EDIT: Even then, supposing one does manage to bring things back to a more even plateau, exactly how long it will last is anyone's guess. Humanity as a collective tends to have a short memory; it only took 40 years or so before everyone forgot the underlying inequalities that led to the Depression and the rise of fascism and started giving the thumbs up to people and policies which backed individual profit at social expense, thereby repeating the socioeconomic process which led to WW2.


Last edited by Cosmic_Equilibrium on Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sword of Skelos
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:23 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Kyle started things by shooting and killing people.


Are you sure you want to go around telling people they are spouting nonsense? I feel like I'm listening to a cult where reality just doesn't matter.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:21 am 
 

If Kyle didn't shoot anyone, would any of us have even heard about it? This whole controversy started because Kyle shot and killed some people.
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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:46 am 
 

AcidWorm wrote:
This really is not accurate. Republicans are all about conflict, and reactionism. That is their bread and butter.

But that's what I was trying to say:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Dems create the narrative while GOP reacts...The moment [Dems] lose grasp over the controlled narrative however, they just move on to the next subject, thus showing that they never truly cared for these things; they just want to seem like the righteous, virtuous ones to the public, while the GOP are confused and simply follow the Dem's lead and react.

Forum members seem to think that when I said that Dems "started" a narrative like CRT that that meant that the Dems "invented" CRT, which is totally not the case. However, let's not pretend that the average American even knew what CRT was before 2020, and let's not pretend that the Liberals have been very honest when it comes to even defining what CRT is; they would say on one hand that it's a social-legal theory involving race and that it has nothing to do with teaching history (which is actually what it is), while then switching over in other situations and say that it is simply about teaching history "accurately" (which is actually not what it is). Thus, as I said before, confusing everyone over the topic. Hence, GOP reacts by saying that they are against CRT, because that's really all they do: react to what Dems say and simply stand against anything that the Dems are for (even if what the Dems are saying makes any sense). But it still stands that it was Dems who brought up CRT in the public discourse and thus started that conversation, which I feel has been usually the case: Dems lead the public discourse and thus establishing a narrative, and the GOP react by automatically standing against whatever the Dems bring up and establishing a counter-narrative, regardless of what the subject is (usually both of these narratives tend to be false, by the way).

Also, let's not pretend that the Dems weren't flirting with the "Defund the Police" platform but abandoned it almost immediately when it was clear how unclear the stance was (and also how disastrous the stance eventually became, what with ultimately causing an increase in crime in some areas and thus causing an almost doubling of the budget in some police departments like in Chicago (which I find hilarious how some activists have reacted nowadays to this result by saying, "well, we didn't really mean defunding and disbanding the police")).

darkeningday wrote:
If Kyle didn't shoot anyone, would any of us have even heard about it? This whole controversy started because Kyle shot and killed some people.

But it wasn't just the fact that he shot and killed some people, it was the false narrative that was constructed around it by Liberals, which was that he was a white racist psychopathic maniac who brought a gun across state lines and then began killing people of color without any provocation, much of which was found to be false in the subsequent trial. It was not unprovoked (he was being attacked, at one point by a skateboard), the people he shot at were white (one of which admitted that he was armed with a pistol that evening), and he did not bring a gun across state lines. I still have Liberal friends who are surprised to hear that none of the victims were black, which is naturally the assumption one would make based on the false narrative constructed around the event, a narrative that was supported and perpetuated by the Dems (well, Liberals in general). To which, as usual, the Conservatives reacted by creating a counter-narrative that portrayed Kyle as a Patriotic demigod-warrior. Which is equally false.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:35 am 
 

No offense but it sounds like you need smarter friends. People who can't use Google to find "five fast facts you need to know about Kyle Rittenhouse" really have no business having opinions. And yes, I realize poor, beleaguered Kyle was brutally struck by a plastic bag and had no other choice but to proportionally respond with a head shot from a semiautomatic rifle that wasn't his and he could not have legally bought. After all, he crossed state lines to protect a business he'd never heard of in a city he didn't live in or work at, so he was obviously not there just to provoke people so he can kill them. Since that would be something a mostly white jury hand picked by the person who selected the OJ Simpson trial jury would find guilty of murder, right?

And the right didn't anoint Kyle as their patron saint because the left was pissed, they did so because he killed "violent leftists" semi-legally. That's really all there was to it.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:27 am 
 

The way some people handcraft every aspect of this case to perfectly fit their overarching societal narrative is kinda disheartening. I'm not saying that all the overarching narratives are incorrect of course (hint: it's not the conservative one that's correct) but that doesn't mean you have to force every case that reaches national and international attention into that mould.

I'm also still gobsmacked that it's apparently not proportional to defend yourself from a dude who's charging at you while the dude in question can cleary see the semiautomatic rifle you're carrying and clearly doesn't give a fuck about it. It's not like he reached into his ass and pulled it out yelling "GOTCHA, I CAN LEGALLY KILL YOU NOW".
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:42 pm 
 

Man I couldn't give a fuck about talking about Rittenhouse for the one billionth goddamn time. It's crazy to think the Dems are the ones engineering anything. They're primarily feckless do-nothings who are content with maintaining a tenuous status quo. A small minority of them are actually advocating for some sensible, moderate reforms to things that would help people. Anything more extreme than that is just people online who have opinions, it isn't some kind of megalith with actual influence right now. I really dunno how you look at the state of politics where the Biden admin isn't even really trying to fight back for abortion or voting rights despite having all the houses of Congress and think 'man these Dems are just out of control!'
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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:58 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
However, let's not pretend that the average American even knew what CRT was before 2020, and let's not pretend that the Liberals have been very honest when it comes to even defining what CRT is; they would say on one hand that it's a social-legal theory involving race and that it has nothing to do with teaching history (which is actually what it is), while then switching over in other situations and say that it is simply about teaching history "accurately" (which is actually not what it is).

No, Democrats as a whole have always been clear about what CRT is: an academic framework for examining how race and racism interact with our legal and social systems. It's not Democrats' fault that Republicans are either too dumb to grasp that simple definition or unwilling to because it lets them score cheap political points. It's also not Democrats' fault that Republicans continue to shriek about CRT being taught in schools when it 100%, definitively is not. It's not. What is being taught in some schools is that there's a long-running history of institutional racism in America, that the legacies of that institutional racism continue to affect the lives of people today, and that maybe, just maybe, students should learn about things like slavery, like Jim Crow, like Asian exclusion laws, and about the legacies of those policies.

If you want to bemoan the lack of clarity around the term, feel free to direct your ire at all the Republicans who have been insisting against all reality that CRT is being taught in every K-12 school in America in order to make white kids hate themselves.

And also, arguing that the controversy over CRT originated with Democrats betrays an ignorance of the history of the controversy. This didn't spring into the public and political consciousness for the first time in 2020. Remember back in 1993 when Bill Clinton's nominee for Assistant AG for Civil Rights, a black woman, was excoriated as a 'quota queen' (definitely no racist/sexist allusions to the 'welfare queen' stereotype there) for her supposed championing of CRT? This is nothing new, and it didn't start with Democrats.

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Sword of Skelos
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:09 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
If Kyle didn't shoot anyone, would any of us have even heard about it?

No.
Quote:
This whole controversy started because Kyle shot and killed some people.

No.

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Sword of Skelos
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:20 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Man I couldn't give a fuck about talking about Rittenhouse for the one billionth goddamn time.

I'm with you here. If someone says "I am going to kill you" and then attacks you, every word after "stupid games, stupid prizes" is wasted.
Quote:
It's crazy to think the Dems are the ones engineering anything. They're primarily feckless do-nothings who are content with maintaining a tenuous status quo.

Oopsie, another 10 million dollars fell into my pocket, I'm so feckless.

Quote:
A small minority of them are actually advocating for some sensible, moderate reforms to things that would help people.

By advocate I assume you mean doing drama arts on Twitter.

Quote:
Anything more extreme than that is just people online who have opinions, it isn't some kind of megalith with actual influence right now. I really dunno how you look at the state of politics where the Biden admin isn't even really trying to fight back for abortion or voting rights despite having all the houses of Congress and think 'man these Dems are just out of control!'


Seems like the abortion issue is like one of those folding chairs just sitting there oddly at the side of the wrestling ring.

Hey are we agreeing in an odd way here? https://www.salon.com/2019/06/19/joe-bi ... s-elected/


EDIT: Just want to highlight one quote from that article even though it's from 2019.

Biden went on to say that the rich should not be blamed for income inequality, pleading to the donors, “I need you very badly.”
Biden went on to say that the rich should not be blamed for income inequality, pleading to the donors, “I need you very badly.”
FUUUUUCK


Last edited by Sword of Skelos on Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:26 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Man I couldn't give a fuck about talking about Rittenhouse for the one billionth goddamn time. It's crazy to think the Dems are the ones engineering anything. They're primarily feckless do-nothings who are content with maintaining a tenuous status quo. A small minority of them are actually advocating for some sensible, moderate reforms to things that would help people. Anything more extreme than that is just people online who have opinions, it isn't some kind of megalith with actual influence right now. I really dunno how you look at the state of politics where the Biden admin isn't even really trying to fight back for abortion or voting rights despite having all the houses of Congress and think 'man these Dems are just out of control!'


Right now the Dems are holding it together by the skin of their teeth because of how narrow their majority is. I don't think there is a road they can take that doesn't lead to status quo or maybe slighty better. The Dems have good plans they want to push through, but they can't - unless they are able to widen the gap in their favour.

Edit: and when the Dems deliver something good, like increasing the child tax credit, that smallest majority means it can be sabotaged by a single vote of an asshat like Manchin.
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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:40 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I really dunno how you look at the state of politics where the Biden admin isn't even really trying to fight back for abortion or voting rights despite having all the houses of Congress and think 'man these Dems are just out of control!'

The administration absolutely is trying. Do you not recognize the realities of having a paper-thin majority where you can't afford to lose literally a single vote? Blaming the administration for 'not trying' on voting rights when they've been making a Herculean effort in the face of monolithic opposition from Republicans just to get to 50-50 is like faulting a first-time lifter for trying and failing to instantly bench 315 pounds.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:44 pm 
 

Would they push for single payer government healthcare, abortion rights codified into law, drastic police reform, $15+ minimum wage, etc if they had more of a majority? I get it, they have done a few things. I just don't have any faith that they're really working for the people in bigger ways than we've already seen. They may be better than Republicans but I'm just not seeing anyone really fighting for people.

Before anyone assumes I'm saying they need to wave a magic wand and do everything immediately - I'm simply saying I want evidence that these are their convictions, at least some proof that this is 100% what they'd be fighting for if they could. I haven't seen that.
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Smalley
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:25 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
The administration absolutely is trying.
Not really:

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:58 pm 
 

Sword of Skelos wrote:
Are you sure you want to go around telling people they are spouting nonsense? I feel like I'm listening to a cult where reality just doesn't matter.

Fucking lol

Go away, troll
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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:02 pm 
 

Smalley wrote:
Not really:


Paul Begala is not a source for what's happening in the Biden administration, or for what the administration is thinking. He has no role with the Biden administration, had no role with the Biden campaign, has never been close with Biden or served, informally or officially, as an advisor or confidante to Biden. What he says is, from the standpoint of judging the Biden administration's intentions on any given issue, pretty much irrelevant. I mean, I even agree with their response to what he's saying, I think it was a stupid thing to say, but it has nothing to do with Biden himself.

Even putting that aside, though, nothing in that clip addresses what I said. There's a lot of yelling, some ahistorical nonsense about LBJ having to be intimidated into fighting for civil rights by MLK (and they're accusing others of not boning up on their history?), and otherwise pretty much no real political insights of merit. I agree with them on a lot when it comes to policy but getting your political analysis from the Young Turks is like getting your morning traffic report from a guy looking out the window of his house with some binoculars.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:41 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
The way some people handcraft every aspect of this case to perfectly fit their overarching societal narrative is kinda disheartening. I'm not saying that all the overarching narratives are incorrect of course (hint: it's not the conservative one that's correct) but that doesn't mean you have to force every case that reaches national and international attention into that mould.

I'm also still gobsmacked that it's apparently not proportional to defend yourself from a dude who's charging at you while the dude in question can cleary see the semiautomatic rifle you're carrying and clearly doesn't give a fuck about it. It's not like he reached into his ass and pulled it out yelling "GOTCHA, I CAN LEGALLY KILL YOU NOW".

I prefer the Joe Biden method of, "If some guy is coming at you with a knife, I don't know man, why don't you just shoot him in the leg?" But seriously, I just do not accept you get a free 007 license if some unarmed idiot says a few verbal threats and runs up on you with a plastic bag.

Maybe it's that I lived for a few weeks with a middle-aged asshole who literally could not go five minutes without conservative talk radio violating his (and consequently, my) ears. This guy concealed carried and put himself in dangerous situations in high crime neighborhoods with the hope that he could legally murder people he's decided are bad (in his case, Mexicans). This was my first run-in with this type of mindset but it was far from my last. Maybe if you lived in Gunfucker Central, USA for as long as I have you'd realize that Kyle just lived the dream so many aspire to and fantasize about.

The NRA often posits that "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." I don't really disagree with that (this is an example of gun killing I support 100%). Where things get murky is when the bad guy doesn't have a gun, because no other implement carries out carnage as effectively and resolutely as a gun. Even an entire supermarket's inventory of plastic bags won't be as deadly as the tiniest gun.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:06 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
I prefer the Joe Biden method of, "If some guy is coming at you with a knife, I don't know man, why don't you just shoot him in the leg?" But seriously, I just do not accept you get a free 007 license if some unarmed idiot says a few verbal threats and runs up on you with a plastic bag


This is why I'm so anti-gun in general. Because if you give people the ability to walk around with the most lethal of weapons, I think you're also explicitly giving the thumbs up to gun down anyone who is giving you ample reason to think they're about to try and turn your gun against you. I think that's an unfortunate buy-in for living in such a society.

Edit: by "gun down" I mean "eliminate the immediate threat" Obviously non lethal is preferred but real situations are often messy.
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MeavyHetal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:39 pm 
 

After reading about Alaska recently choosing to implement it, I figured I would ask: what is everyone’s thoughts on ranked choice voting over the traditional method?

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