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Ex El Ex El Ex
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:53 pm
Posts: 328
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:37 pm 
 

"You either flagellate yourself every day while you meditate on the misery your government (through no choice of your own) inflicts on other countries or you're a terrible person with no empathy."

Every time I think I see the Worst Darkeningday Take of All Time, I am eventually proven wrong.
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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 853
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:22 pm 
 

So, how about that war? Russia is really benefiting from mass shootings, Jan6th hearings, and gas prices, because...you know...oil prices are only affecting the US. Wait it out, and it's a guarantee it will barely show up in the news anymore. Are they still waiting to receive the weapons from a couple weeks ago?

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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 374
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:57 pm 
 

German arms deliveries delayed until the end of the year. You'd think they got their priorities straight by now but no, massively disappointing. And Scholz apparently is (finally) meeting Zelenskyy this week, together with Macron and Draghi. I wonder if they will visit Kyiv empty-handed, that would simply not do.

On a more positive note: that Ukrainian song "Ой у лузі червона калина" (Oy u luzi chervona kalyna), made famous by Andriy Khlyvnyuk and The Kiffness, is hitting a note with the kids in my music lessons. They keep requesting it and I can actually sing it from heart now.
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:35 am 
 

Miikja wrote:
German arms deliveries delayed until the end of the year. You'd think they got their priorities straight by now but no, massively disappointing. And Scholz apparently is (finally) meeting Zelenskyy this week, together with Macron and Draghi. I wonder if they will visit Kyiv empty-handed, that would simply not do.

On a more positive note: that Ukrainian song "Ой у лузі червона калина" (Oy u luzi chervona kalyna), made famous by Andriy Khlyvnyuk and The Kiffness, is hitting a note with the kids in my music lessons. They keep requesting it and I can actually sing it from heart now.

Thank you very much (again) for your support in this thread.
To be honest, people in Ukraine are suspicious and skeptical about these meetings - there is a theory that the leaders of these particular European countries who are supporters/didn't seem to mind of "saving Putin's face" policy (by giving a part of Ukrainian territories to Russia) want to persuade our president to sign ''Minsk-3'' / or something like that...
Germany is a special case - on the one hand, the country helps Ukraine a lot financially, and also accepts refugees from Ukraine, but as for allowing transfer of German weapons to Ukraine, the situation seems almost hopeless.

hakarl wrote:
Reminder: No memes. They might be funny and true, but this is not the place.

Is posting of Ukrainian memes also not allowed here (from official Ukrainian diplomacy, even)?
I hope I will not be banned because of posting this link here (I apologize in advance if this is not allowed) - https://twitter.com/MelnykAndrij/status ... _AkTXZC6kg
Spoiler: show
this is a post by a Ukrainian diplomat in Germany who showed his view on the situation with the supply of German weapons to Ukraine.
(Edit: I used a translator from German language and realized that this is not exactly the Ambassador's of Ukraine in Germany own view, it was a re-post from the ambassador's private correspondence with someone from the Kyiv government).
Many Ukrainian people are so exhausted from this situation with delays in the supply of weapons that there seems to be a need to find/to create some simple and (relatively) safe outlet for negative emotions - perhaps behaviors like these aren't very ethical/diplomatic, but at least it's honestly given (and it definitely feels better for mental health of ordinary Ukrainians like me than reading all those conspiracy theories (which are related to delays in the supply of weapons to Ukraine) from Ukrainian military/political experts that filled the Ukrainian media space (they are not only about Germany (who seems to just wish there weren't all these difficulties/problems with buying/transporting oil and gas for their country), there are also theories that the USA also intentionally delays the timing and quantity of the supply of weapons for certain "political" reasons - for example, there is a theory that, on the one hand, the USA government wants a weakening of Russia and a change of Russian government, but, at the same time, they think that if Russia loses this war in a relatively short time, there may be a risk of a collapse of Russia as a country (which is not beneficial to the United States of America as a part of NATO because they need the "presence of an enemy/source of potential danger (in the form of Russia)" which justifies the NATO's existence on the territory of Europe)...).

Morrigan wrote:
Russian state propaganda

It looks like Russian propaganda and Russian lobbying/money can significantly affect not only people in Russia, but it may also have a negative effect on the views/principles and implementation of norms/laws of democratic societies on the international level. :(

I don't have the energy to refute every Russian propaganda narratives that were posted in this thread/or were said somewhere in a foreign media, but I think it's important to post something that refutes + gives more detailed information about this (because this phrase is like the embodiment of the Russian propaganda about this war):

darkeningday wrote:
the Ukrainian government bombing the shit out of that very region [Donbass] for 8+ years, killing thousands of civilians--which Russia played a hand in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXdK6Bz7aYw
The style of this video is more intended to convey information to a younger audience, maybe this ''more simple and direct'' style can be more effective to perceive for certain people here...
(warning: there is a description of tortures in the video)
(warning 2: the video is not "friendly" and might be offensive to people from Russia)


Last edited by sjal on Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 853
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:38 pm 
 

Burning wheat fields, by torching and with incendiary bombs, and targeting farmers as they attempt to plant their crops. Farmers donning flak jackets as they sit in their tractor cabs. Not only potentially starving Ukrainians, via Stalin in the early 1930s, but also likely starving people in Africa and around the world, via Unicef and others, who depend on Ukrainian wheat for food, as their several droughts have made it impossible for farmers to keep livestock and grow what little food their soil and climates allow. Sinister.

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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 1787
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:29 pm 
 

Miikja wrote:
German arms deliveries delayed until the end of the year. You'd think they got their priorities straight by now but no, massively disappointing. And Scholz apparently is (finally) meeting Zelenskyy this week, together with Macron and Draghi. I wonder if they will visit Kyiv empty-handed, that would simply not do.

On a more positive note: that Ukrainian song "Ой у лузі червона калина" (Oy u luzi chervona kalyna), made famous by Andriy Khlyvnyuk and The Kiffness, is hitting a note with the kids in my music lessons. They keep requesting it and I can actually sing it from heart now.


I've been through this song a few times and it's very catchy and very different to anything I normally listen to.

Where is this song popular? How do you know it?
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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 374
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:09 pm 
 

I've been following The Kiffness ever since his "Ievan Polkka" remix blew up so that's how I know it. "Oy u luzi chervona kalyna" is a patriotic song (but a good one at that) from about 150 years ago. Andriy Khlyvnyuk sang a verse on the streets of Kyiv, that went viral, and then The Kiffness was the first to publish a remix. You can read the whole story here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi_u_luzi_chervona_kalyna.
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:45 am 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
Burning wheat fields, by torching and with incendiary bombs, and targeting farmers as they attempt to plant their crops. Farmers donning flak jackets as they sit in their tractor cabs. Not only potentially starving Ukrainians, via Stalin in the early 1930s, but also likely starving people in Africa and around the world, via Unicef and others, who depend on Ukrainian wheat for food, as their several droughts have made it impossible for farmers to keep livestock and grow what little food their soil and climates allow. Sinister.

Yes, this grave situation with the agro-industry in Ukraine affected by the war and also with the export of Ukrainian grain to other countries (and starving people in Africa/Asia) remains very hard to solve.
There is also this forecast of further course of events in this situation, and this is one of the most severe forecasts about possible consequences of this war that I read:
https://twitter.com/TimothyDSnyder/stat ... WVzs8qAAAA

As for the current situation, there is a big problem with the storage of this year's and future crops on the territory of Ukraine (because grain is transported-exported abroad very slowly, plus Russia continues to destroy grain silos with rocket strikes), but there is information that it is planned to build temporary storage facilities (especially near the western borders of Ukraine and also on those territories of Poland that borders on Ukraine (and the USA has promised to help with this)), plus is considering the possibility of temporary storage of Ukrainian grain in grain storages in territories of some other European countries.

Edit:
sjal wrote:
Miikja wrote:
German arms deliveries delayed until the end of the year. You'd think they got their priorities straight by now but no, massively disappointing. And Scholz apparently is (finally) meeting Zelenskyy this week, together with Macron and Draghi. I wonder if they will visit Kyiv empty-handed, that would simply not do.

Thank you very much (again) for your support in this thread.
To be honest, people in Ukraine are suspicious and skeptical about these meetings - there is a theory that the leaders of these particular European countries who are supporters/didn't seem to mind of "saving Putin's face" policy (by giving a part of Ukrainian territories to Russia) want to persuade our president to sign ''Minsk-3'' / or something like that...
Germany is a special case - on the one hand, the country helps Ukraine a lot financially, and also accepts refugees from Ukraine, but as for allowing transfer of German weapons to Ukraine, the situation seems almost hopeless.

Fortunately, it looks like the results of this meeting are better than expected, although people in Ukraine (both ordinary Ukrainians and the authorities) still worry about it. "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" - that's the formula people from our government are planned their actions these days, it seems - https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/a ... n-the-war/
There is also a problem that there are not many Soviet weapons left in those countries that transferred them to Ukraine, plus there are big problems with ammunition for these weapons in Ukraine (because there were several large-scale explosions and fires (organized with the participation of Russia) on Ukrainian ammunition storage facilities earlier, before 2022, and the Ukrainian army had already used most of those that remained, after the start of the full-scale war in February 2022) - so the only way out this is the partial transition of the Ukrainian army to NATO standards, but it also takes time for the Ukrainian military to learn how to work on these modern heavy weapon systems (but, as far as I know, the Ukrainian military (and artillerists in particular) have been good at mastering these weapons in a relatively short time).

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JCP524
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:02 am 
 

I am just amazed at the reluctance of the west to do what is necessary.

Africans are being starved, democracy is at complete risk of being defeated, prices are rising

all because of russian actions

and still we do nothing to confront the threat

Just very disconcerting

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Benedict Donald
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 3066
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:17 am 
 

JCP524 wrote:
I am just amazed at the reluctance of the west to do what is necessary.

Africans are being starved, democracy is at complete risk of being defeated, prices are rising

all because of russian actions

and still we do nothing to confront the threat

Just very disconcerting


Should the West simply lob a few nukes into Russia?

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In_Zane
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:41 am 
 

JCP524 wrote:
I am just amazed at the reluctance of the west to do what is necessary.

Africans are being starved, democracy is at complete risk of being defeated, prices are rising

all because of russian actions

and still we do nothing to confront the threat

Just very disconcerting

And what do you propose we do that doesnt risk starting a nuclear war?

Giving Ukrainian land to Russia is not an option.
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WinterHarbinger
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:29 am
Posts: 11
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:43 pm 
 

JCP524 wrote:
I am just amazed at the reluctance of the west to do what is necessary.

Africans are being starved, democracy is at complete risk of being defeated, prices are rising

all because of russian actions

and still we do nothing to confront the threat

Just very disconcerting


While I agree that more should be done, there is a lot that some Western nations have done:

-Arms shipments, to include LRM from the US and MANPAD from the UK. The Starstreak is considered one of the best in the world.

-Personnel from the US and UK have joined the Inernational League of Territorial Defense of Ukraine.

-A number of US veterans and church organizations have estsblished supply chains and humanitarian aid programs for refugees.

-The US military has been training Ukrainian military forces for years.

I am unfamiliar with other countries, but these are examples of what has been done. And while aid from said governments is best, nothing prevents private citizens from assisting on their own. Is there something else you would recommend?

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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:42 pm 
 

In_Zane wrote:

Giving Ukrainian land to Russia is not an option.


It's also not our decision. But it's true that it also means we can't do much more than impose sanctions and militarily support Ukraine.

I understand it's frustrating. Especially considering the surprising ineptitude of Russian's army. If it weren,t for nukes, it'd be over already. Russia has just shown that MAD isn't good enough anymore, and we should find an alternative.

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In_Zane
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:51 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
It's also not our decision.

Of course - if Ukraine decides to do so, it's their choice.
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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 853
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:05 pm 
 

This has become A LOT bigger than Ukraine. It was already a huge deal when just considering of Ukraine and democracy. Now it is involving starvation as far away as Africa. Aiding the world potentially going into a recession. And even if Europe had the conviction to move away from Russian energy, Russia is now a greater leading power in food sourcing. The world might not go to it for oil and gas anymore, but it will have no other choice than to go to it for grain. This thing is bleeding out everywhere and into everything. You think migration is a problem with climate change, dwindling economies, and brutal governments and other ill players?

I was feeling hawkish tendencies at the beginning of this. I walked away from that and tried to find a more level head. The consequences are growing greater every day. I'm again not sure if we blundered this thing by trying to side-step it all with just supplying weapons. And if it all ended tomorrow, how much money and resources would have to pour into Ukraine for it not to be a never-ending crisis?

I just said a lot of nothing. I can't help we fucked up somehow, and I don't know what that even means.

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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:14 am 
 

JCP524 wrote:
I am just amazed at the reluctance of the west to do what is necessary.

Africans are being starved, democracy is at complete risk of being defeated, prices are rising

all because of russian actions

and still we do nothing to confront the threat

Just very disconcerting

Hey, that's a very big exaggeration here. In general, the West is doing a lot to help (just read this report, for example - https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcript ... gen-mille/, even if this help is not fast enough), and people in Ukraine are eternally grateful for that.
People in Ukraine have clearly understood that it is very important that NATO is not directly involved in this war and that we need to defend Ukraine by the forces of people of only our army (and volunteers from other countries who want to help), and it looks like NATO can't unblock Ukrainian ports with grain ships either (this is actually a task for the UN (imho, and as an example - https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/e ... ine-wheat/) but it seems they do almost nothing to help in this situation/unable to solve this problem :( Edit: There is this information - https://newsreadonline.com/negotiations ... eek-media/ Hope it will work) because there is a risk of provocation from Russia, which could lead to direct involvement of NATO in this war, we just wish there were no risks that (probable) thoughts/actions of certain pro-Russian politicians abroad could negatively affect the course/results of this war.

ZenoMarx wrote:
This has become A LOT bigger than Ukraine. It was already a huge deal when just considering of Ukraine and democracy. Now it is involving starvation as far away as Africa. Aiding the world potentially going into a recession. And even if Europe had the conviction to move away from Russian energy, Russia is now a greater leading power in food sourcing. The world might not go to it for oil and gas anymore, but it will have no other choice than to go to it for grain. This thing is bleeding out everywhere and into everything. You think migration is a problem with climate change, dwindling economies, and brutal governments and other ill players?

I was feeling hawkish tendencies at the beginning of this. I walked away from that and tried to find a more level head. The consequences are growing greater every day. I'm again not sure if we blundered this thing by trying to side-step it all with just supplying weapons. And if it all ended tomorrow, how much money and resources would have to pour into Ukraine for it not to be a never-ending crisis?

I just said a lot of nothing. I can't help we fucked up somehow, and I don't know what that even means.

Your views and feelings on this situation are OK, imo.

I think the main problem is that it is very difficult to trust Russia after all that stuff the government of this country has done in Ukraine and in this world in general.
I can tell about myself as well, if interested - I was quite the opposite - before+at the beginning of this large-scale war, I was one of those people who advocated and supported only peaceful solutions to all problems and conflicts, and I have anti-war views in general (this even reflects on what metal music I listen to - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=132113&p=2992548&hilit=very+few+martial+industrial+inspired+#p2992548), but after all those mass cruelty, violence and terror against civilians that the Russian occupiers did (and are doing) in Ukraine and the violation of (almost) all possible laws by Russia here, I do not believe in/do not see any peaceful solution/course of events in this war these days anymore :(

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hakarl
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8816
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:33 pm 
 

sjal wrote:
hakarl wrote:
Reminder: No memes. They might be funny and true, but this is not the place.

Is posting of Ukrainian memes also not allowed here (from official Ukrainian diplomacy, even)?
I hope I will not be banned because of posting this link here (I apologize in advance if this is not allowed) - https://twitter.com/MelnykAndrij/status ... _AkTXZC6kg
Spoiler: show
this is a post by a Ukrainian diplomat in Germany who showed his view on the situation with the supply of German weapons to Ukraine.
(Edit: I used a translator from German language and realized that this is not exactly the Ambassador's of Ukraine in Germany own view, it was a re-post from the ambassador's private correspondence with someone from the Kyiv government).
Many Ukrainian people are so exhausted from this situation with delays in the supply of weapons that there seems to be a need to find/to create some simple and (relatively) safe outlet for negative emotions - perhaps behaviors like these aren't very ethical/diplomatic, but at least it's honestly given (and it definitely feels better for mental health of ordinary Ukrainians like me than reading all those conspiracy theories (which are related to delays in the supply of weapons to Ukraine) from Ukrainian military/political experts that filled the Ukrainian media space (they are not only about Germany (who seems to just wish there weren't all these difficulties/problems with buying/transporting oil and gas for their country), there are also theories that the USA also intentionally delays the timing and quantity of the supply of weapons for certain "political" reasons - for example, there is a theory that, on the one hand, the USA government wants a weakening of Russia and a change of Russian government, but, at the same time, they think that if Russia loses this war in a relatively short time, there may be a risk of a collapse of Russia as a country (which is not beneficial to the United States of America as a part of NATO because they need the "presence of an enemy/source of potential danger (in the form of Russia)" which justifies the NATO's existence on the territory of Europe)...).


Yeah don't worry, I should've been more clear and said "no shitposting". So, no drive-by dumping memes thoughtlessly. And nobody's getting banned for that either unless they post something really disgusting.
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MiamiJustice
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:11 pm
Posts: 80
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:29 pm 
 

The Ukraine will be liberated and Russia’s influence will be destroyed by NATO German and US attacks on Russia, most likely.
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pyratebastard
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:05 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Pacific Northwest US
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:39 pm 
 

MiamiJustice wrote:
The Ukraine will be liberated and Russia’s influence will be destroyed by NATO German and US attacks on Russia, most likely.


It's just Ukraine - there is no the necessary. What sources do you have that indicate that Germany or the United States intend to attack Russia?
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In_Zane
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:52 pm 
 

MiamiJustice wrote:
The Ukraine will be liberated and Russia’s influence will be destroyed by NATO German and US attacks on Russia, most likely.

I dont think the US will do more than they do (unless Russia attacks a NATO nation).

They do not wish to escalate things.
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:57 pm 
 

hakarl wrote:
sjal wrote:
hakarl wrote:
Reminder: No memes. They might be funny and true, but this is not the place.

Is posting of Ukrainian memes also not allowed here (from official Ukrainian diplomacy, even)?
I hope I will not be banned because of posting this link here (I apologize in advance if this is not allowed) - https://twitter.com/MelnykAndrij/status ... _AkTXZC6kg

Yeah don't worry, I should've been more clear and said "no shitposting". So, no drive-by dumping memes thoughtlessly. And nobody's getting banned for that either unless they post something really disgusting.

Thanks for the answer.
Memes in Ukraine are quite popular (about this war and in general), but I'm not really into it these days and not really into humor in general, although I think some of them are quite OK, especially those that are informative and can help to fight with Russian propaganda.
For me personally, it's relatively effective and helpful when there are certain situations that are similar to the one I posted - i.e. situations that are related to politics (both foreign/international and within Ukraine) - when you just cannot do anything with it and you feel an 'unproductive' anger/hopelessness, and there is a need to deal with/to get rid of these negative emotions.
I think the Ukrainian diplomat in the UN Sergiy Kyslytsya is really good at this - I'm not religious (and I'm rather atheistic), but there are times when his phrase about Russian war criminals (both politicians and military) "There is no purgatory for war criminals. They go straight to hell" makes me feel a little better for some reason (sorry for this offtopic piece of strange psychology here).
---

There are positive news about the officialy approved Ukraine's candidate status in the EU. :)
Congratulations to Moldova as well. :)

We need (continue) to do many reforms (which is very good in general) - https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/eng/ ... 8/7141516/, but right now people in Ukraine are just happy with this decision about the candidate status of the EU and support it very much.
The only sad thing is that there was (and is) a lot of suffering and deaths of Ukrainian people on our way to the European integration.

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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:25 am 
 

Our President asks the USA to officially recognize Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism - https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/ro ... svit-76089

There seems to be a direct correlation in behavior of Russian military/politicians in this war these days: as soon as the Armed Forces of Ukraine have some success in this war (especially when it comes to a liquidation/destruction of Russian command posts, some special military/monitoring equipment, etc. (those ones that are located on the territory of Ukraine, not Russia)), Russian military/politicians, instead of fighting only with the Ukrainian military, give an order to "get revenge'' on Ukraine with harsh and intense rocket attacks on civilian targets (and it seems that one of the main purposes of these Russian attacks is also to intimidate and to increase panic and fear among civilian people of Ukraine and make us to ask our government for a surrender/or something like that and not resist the Russian occupation...).

sjal wrote:
an 'unproductive' anger

for efficient use of a 'productive' anger (especially if you are a Ukrainian civilian), we have a powerful volunteer movement in Ukraine.
I usually only donate to humanitarian aid programmes, but the recent crowdfunding campaign for Bayraktars for our army was so impressive and inspired (people from Lithuania did a similar action for Ukraine as well, and this is great) that I also participated a little bit.., but these Turkish people were so kind that Ukraine got three Bayraktars TB2 for free - https://www.reuters.com/world/turkeys-b ... 022-06-27/

Once again, many thanks to all those people from abroad who help and support Ukraine these days.

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JCP524
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:30 pm 
 

What we are doing just isn't cutting it. I'm sick of cowards. How many more must die? How many nations must Russia invade?

It is time for war.

I, for one, am sick of appeasing white supremacist Christofasicists.

It should tell everyone something that Tucker Carlson supports Putin and Trump.

We need to mobilize and let Putin defecate or get off the pot.

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MorbidEngel
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:37 pm
Posts: 1464
Location: New Jersey
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:26 pm 
 

Yes let's kickstart a potential WW3 while we're at it

You honestly must either be trolling or have no idea what the actual repercussions would be if the US did that
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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
Posts: 2232
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:53 pm 
 

I'll agree to war if you go first.
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In_Zane
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:17 am 
 

JCP524 wrote:
What we are doing just isn't cutting it. I'm sick of cowards. How many more must die? How many nations must Russia invade?

It is time for war.

The irony is astounding.

A couple of thousands are dying currently - which is obviously bad - but do you realise the millions that'll die if World War 3 would start? Humanity would probably not survive for long after that, since Nuclear Weapons would be used. If you think it's cowardice to not wanna risk the entire worlds population - please dont breed.
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:54 am 
 

JCP524 wrote:
What we are doing just isn't cutting it. I'm sick of cowards. How many more must die? How many nations must Russia invade?

It is time for war.

MorbidEngel wrote:
Yes let's kickstart a potential WW3 while we're at it

You honestly must either be trolling or have no idea what the actual repercussions would be if the US did that

I took the previous message with that phrase "still we do nothing to confront the threat" from this MA user seriously, and therefore I tried to answer seriously (about the weapons that many countries have already given and continue to give to Ukraine) and gave an information that I read about this.., so it means that it is not necessary to waste time and energy for explanations why a variant where the USA directly participate in this war not being considered here anymore?
To me it would be better if there was more constructive and more ''real-life''- oriented information and discussion in this thread.

@ JCP524,
and you can also look at it from a different point of view - are you sure that people in Ukraine would like USA soldiers to officially (and in large numbers) join this war on the territory of Ukraine and turn the territory of our country into the USA vs Russia battlefield? - just look at the photos of the destruction that the fightings in the Lugansk and Donetsk regions left behind during this Russia-Ukraine war, there is a risk that the large-scale the USA/NATO vs Russia war will just wipe off the Ukrainian people and Ukrainian infrastructure from the face of the earth.
(This is me describing the variant of possible course of events in which nuclear weapons are not used by any country; if nuclear weapons are used, then no one can predict the possible course of action and the consequences ot the war).

As people in Ukraine joked, let's let the USA army save the world only in some films with fictional stories - apocalyptic/catastrophic or about some fictional global wars - and not in the real life.
---

I would like to ask the USA residents, if I may: on the one side, I read that people from the USA say that lend-lease is very difficult for the economy and negatively affects the financial condition of ordinary people (because of inflation), but I also read some views of Ukrainian experts in the Ukrainian media that such an intensive work of the military-industrial complex can have a positive effect on the country's economy (because GDP is growing, new jobs are being created, etc.) - is this can be true/possible or is it just a Ukrainian propaganda?
I also read that all USA weapon manufacturer companies are private, not state owned, would it be better/worse if they were state owned?

About Ukraine: I used to not be interested in the state of the military-industrial complex here, but it seems that its state was not good.
First of all, Ukraine was not a military-oriented country, and the percentage that was allocated for the army and the production/purchase of weapons was not so large - because Ukraine was not going to (and is not going to) start a war with anyone, but as for protection of Ukraine, well, the Ukrainian government was hoping for the 'guarantees' of the Budapest Memorandum, I guess... After the Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2014, there definitely should have been more attention by our government on actions that could increase of resources for defense of the country in the future.

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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:41 am 
 

sjal wrote:
I would like to ask the USA residents, if I may: on the one side, I read that people from the USA say that lend-lease is very difficult for the economy and negatively affects the financial condition of ordinary people (because of inflation), but I also read some views of Ukrainian experts in the Ukrainian media that such an intensive work of the military-industrial complex can have a positive effect on the country's economy (because GDP is growing, new jobs are being created, etc.) - is this can be true/possible or is it just a Ukrainian propaganda?

Both are true, but need to be looked at as different stages. The negative effects are what the US is seeing right now, but how much of that can be greater attributed to the deregulation push of the Reagan administration should be argued by people more knowledgeable on the matter (though everything I've read/heard paints the deregulation aspect as being the tipping point for the unstable US economy of the last ~40 years). The positives that it seems the Ukrainian experts are speaking of are short-term gains, as seen by the post-WWII US and Japanese economies, where there comes an extended period of great growth (with dips, of course) before an inevitable plateau and recession.

Basically, lend/lease can allow industry to flourish, but there comes a time when (a) the debts must be fulfilled, and (b) the needs of industry change.
Quote:
I also read that all USA weapon manufacturer companies are private, not state owned, would it be better/worse if they were state owned?

They are privately owned, but with many having tight contracts with the government (Lockheed Martin, Raytheon) for the development and manufacturing of larger weapons (missiles, fighter jets, tanks, etc.) that often include limits on what other nations the companies can manufacture for/sell weapons to, which is often restricted by which nations are allied with the US.

The smaller manufacturers, meaning rifles and other handheld firearms, seem to only be restricted by the legal limits of US free trade laws.

I say this with the caveat that I'm likely mistaken on the finer details, but I've worked for companies that have dealt with Raytheon and SIG SAUER in the past, and that's the impression I've had.
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JCP524
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:08 am 
 

I might be wrong but I don't think so....

Let me explain.

Fear of nuclear reprisal basically allows Russia to bite off chunks of land bit by bit and also encourages states like North Korea and Iran to be recalcitrant.

How could nuclear war be worse than what we potentially have now?

Africans being starved
Ukrainians dying by the thousands
democracy being subverted in the West
white supremacy rising in the west

This seems like a Neville Chamberlain appeasement type stratgey.


Last edited by hakarl on Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Warned: too asinine for this thread

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In_Zane
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:18 am 
 

JCP524 wrote:
How could nuclear war be worse than what we potentially have now?

Africans being starved
Ukrainians dying by the thousands
democracy being subverted in the West
white supremacy rising in the west

Oh, y'know, the majority of the human race being wiped out?

Are you trolling, or are you just that stupid?
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henkkjelle
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:48 pm 
 

Maybe they're a Posadist.
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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:24 pm 
 

I can do something about white supremacists - I can oppose their efforts, I can punch them in the face.

I can do something about Africans dying of hunger by donating.

I can't do shit about a nuclear warhead coming down on me (I don't think I have unlocked that superpower yet).

If you're feeling suicidal, seek help (I mean that seriously), don't bring us all down with you. If all those things depress you, may I suggest turning off the TV and the Internet for a while (also maybe seek help)?

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Hexenmacht46290
Has a GED in Gamercide

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:26 pm 
 

JCP524 wrote:
How could nuclear war be worse than what we potentially have now?

Please, stop trolling. I hope the FBI isn’t paying you to post this crap.
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Ex El Ex El Ex
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:13 pm 
 

I mean, there can't be any discord in the world if everyone is fucking atomized into oblivion.
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pyratebastard
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:48 pm 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
I mean, there can't be any discord in the world if everyone is fucking atomized into oblivion.


Peace through comprehensive annihilation.
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:02 am 
 

acid_bukkake wrote:
Spoiler: show
sjal wrote:
I would like to ask the USA residents, if I may: on the one side, I read that people from the USA say that lend-lease is very difficult for the economy and negatively affects the financial condition of ordinary people (because of inflation), but I also read some views of Ukrainian experts in the Ukrainian media that such an intensive work of the military-industrial complex can have a positive effect on the country's economy (because GDP is growing, new jobs are being created, etc.) - is this can be true/possible or is it just a Ukrainian propaganda?

Both are true, but need to be looked at as different stages. The negative effects are what the US is seeing right now, but how much of that can be greater attributed to the deregulation push of the Reagan administration should be argued by people more knowledgeable on the matter (though everything I've read/heard paints the deregulation aspect as being the tipping point for the unstable US economy of the last ~40 years). The positives that it seems the Ukrainian experts are speaking of are short-term gains, as seen by the post-WWII US and Japanese economies, where there comes an extended period of great growth (with dips, of course) before an inevitable plateau and recession.

Basically, lend/lease can allow industry to flourish, but there comes a time when (a) the debts must be fulfilled, and (b) the needs of industry change.
Quote:
I also read that all USA weapon manufacturer companies are private, not state owned, would it be better/worse if they were state owned?

They are privately owned, but with many having tight contracts with the government (Lockheed Martin, Raytheon) for the development and manufacturing of larger weapons (missiles, fighter jets, tanks, etc.) that often include limits on what other nations the companies can manufacture for/sell weapons to, which is often restricted by which nations are allied with the US.

The smaller manufacturers, meaning rifles and other handheld firearms, seem to only be restricted by the legal limits of US free trade laws.

I say this with the caveat that I'm likely mistaken on the finer details, but I've worked for companies that have dealt with Raytheon and SIG SAUER in the past, and that's the impression I've had.

Thanks for such a detailed answer, this information is sufficient and now it's more clear how it works in the USA (and in general).
It is sad that this situation is/can negatively affect-ing ordinary people (now and in the future).

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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:25 am 
 

About the current situation on the fronts in Ukraine:
this does not seem to be good - the Ukrainian military has almost lost control of the Luhansk region, and it looks like the Donetsk region will be next - https://understandingwar.org/background ... ent-july-2
It seems the delays in the supply of weapons in April-May-June from the West were critical and negatively affected the course of the war, and now it is very difficult to change/improve it.

I only hope that at least the Kherson region will be de-occupied in a relatively short time - there is no strength to read about the suffering of Ukrainian people who are under the Russian occupation in the Kherson region. :(

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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:21 pm 
 

sjal wrote:
Our President asks the USA to officially recognize Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism - https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/ro ... svit-76089

There seems to be a direct correlation in behavior of Russian military/politicians in this war these days: as soon as the Armed Forces of Ukraine have some success in this war (especially when it comes to a liquidation/destruction of Russian command posts, some special military/monitoring equipment, etc. (those ones that are located on the territory of Ukraine, not Russia)), Russian military/politicians, instead of fighting only with the Ukrainian military, give an order to "get revenge'' on Ukraine with harsh and intense rocket attacks on civilian targets (and it seems that one of the main purposes of these Russian attacks is also to intimidate and to increase panic and fear among civilian people of Ukraine and make us to ask our government for a surrender/or something like that and not resist the Russian occupation...).


I wanted to add links to another addresses by the President of Ukraine about Russian terrorism and Russian war crimes against civilians in Ukraine - https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/ma ... rosi-76477 and https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/ce ... voyu-76493

When a case of Russian rocket attacks on civilian targets in Ukraine is especially cruel and harsh and has large-scale consequences with many casualties, there is an Internet movement in Ukraine whose purpose is to spread the information about that case on social networks/media - and it can reach influential politicians/international organizations/foreign media (the tag list looks like this - https://t.me/s/tegtwi/3), but honestly, I don’t know (anymore) if there is a chance that it can change anything in this horrible situation with Russian rocket attacks on Ukrainian civilian objects and with the injuries/deaths of Ukrainian civilians in this war. :(

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hakarl
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8816
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:14 am 
 

It's really starting to sink in (to me) that this is going to go on for a long time, as the initial shock of Russia destroying civilian targets has worn off, and now is the cold horrible realisation that the destruction that Russia is causing is a calculated and deliberate effort to kill and maim Ukrainians over a long period of time, and destroy their homes and livelihoods. Even the way they are waging the war via heavy shelling tells me that their main war strategy at the moment is to bring as much despair and suffering to Ukraine as possible. It's really horrifying to watch this disaster unfold. The main take-away for me is that nobody is safe until Putin is dead, and what happens after that is anyone's guess...
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Oblarg
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Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:59 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:42 am 
 

hakarl wrote:
It's really starting to sink in (to me) that this is going to go on for a long time, as the initial shock of Russia destroying civilian targets has worn off, and now is the cold horrible realisation that the destruction that Russia is causing is a calculated and deliberate effort to kill and maim Ukrainians over a long period of time, and destroy their homes and livelihoods. Even the way they are waging the war via heavy shelling tells me that their main war strategy at the moment is to bring as much despair and suffering to Ukraine as possible. It's really horrifying to watch this disaster unfold. The main take-away for me is that nobody is safe until Putin is dead, and what happens after that is anyone's guess...


This was the goal from the start. Russia can't sustain an occupation, but they can kill a lot of people and destroy the country. If Putin can't have it, Putin will break it.
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