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funeralravens
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:08 pm
Posts: 171
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:04 am 
 

Oblarg wrote:
This was the goal from the start. Russia can't sustain an occupation, but they can kill a lot of people and destroy the country. If Putin can't have it, Putin will break it.

Not really, they thought it was going to be a cakewalk, but now that the initial plan failed they have no idea what do do and just hit random targets. Putin's generals are way dumber than you think.

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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:41 am 
 

Posting a tweet from Bellingcat's Christo Grozev:
Quote:
Exactly at this time 8 years ago, Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 took off from Amsterdam with 298 people on board. Less than 3 hours later, they were all killed by a BUK anti-aircraft weapon, fired by the same incompetent Russian army that is killing mothers and children today.


This echoes Funeralravens remark on Russian generals and the army as a whole. I think he's right, there's not much that seems to go according to plan. They're just improvising as they go and cause absurd numbers of casualties, military and civilian, in the process. War pigs, the lot of them.

Russia is a sick, cruel and foolish old man that should be put to sleep.
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Oblarg
Veteran

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:59 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:31 am 
 

I think it depends on what you mean by "plan." Indiscriminate destruction can be a strategic goal. Sneering at the Russian military for incompetence doesn't bring the lives of the civilians back. What can be done to stop it?

If the answer is "nothing, because no one can risk war with Putin," then Putin has won.
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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:38 pm 
 

The world can and should provide Ukraine with more weapons and training. More drones, perhaps, to target the Russian cannons. I'm certain it could turn things around, where Putin's thug army is forced to give up positions. World leaders are not doing everything they can. It's very frustrating, like they can't/don't want to see what's at stake here.

Stoltenberg knows this too:
Quote:
Yes, it is extremely important that we as politicians make sure that our countries provide support to Ukraine, and not only provide support to Ukraine but provide substantial support to Ukraine for a long time. And that will have a price. Sanctions are important but also of course the military support, humanitarian support, economic support... That has a price. But the price of not supporting them is much higher. Partly because, for me, this is a moral issue. This is about a sovereign independent nation. With more than 40 million people living in Europe, which is brutally attacked by a big power; Russia. If we don't react to that and after we've seen what happened in Bucha and other places, it violates my understanding of what is decent behaviour of neighbours and friends of Ukraine. So, of course, yes, it has a price; but to not act and just let Russia's brutality continue and be rewarded is, for me, a higher price.

Second, it is in our interest to help Ukraine. Because you have to understand that if Ukraine loses this, that's a danger for us. That will make Europe even more vulnerable for Russian aggression. Because then the lesson learned from Georgia in 2008, from annexing Crimea, from starting to undermine Donbas in 2014 and then the full-fledged brutal invasion by president Putin in February, is that they can just use force to get their will. It's to re-establish a sphere of influence, where big powers decide what small neighbours can do. And that will make all of us more vulnerable. So, even if you don't care about the moral aspect of this, supporting the people of Ukraine, you should care about your own security interests. So therefore, you have to pay; pay for the support, pay for the humanitarian aid, pay for the consequences of the economic sanctions, because the alternative is to pay a much higher price later on.

And then remember one thing. Yes, we pay a price, but the price we pay, as the European Union, as NATO, is a price we can measure in currency, in money. The price they pay is measured in lives lost every day. So we should just stop complaining and step up and provide support, full stop.


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sjal
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:15 am 
 

sjal wrote:
it looks like NATO can't unblock Ukrainian ports with grain ships either (this is actually a task for the UN (imho, and as an example - https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/e ... ine-wheat/) but it seems they do almost nothing to help in this situation/unable to solve this problem :( Edit: There is this information - https://newsreadonline.com/negotiations ... eek-media/ Hope it will work)

Ukraine, Turkey and the UN signed an agreement on unblocking grain exports. And Russia signed an agreement about it (separately) as well. -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/de ... story.html

In general, this is certainly good and long-awaited both for Ukraine and for the world, but people in Ukraine are very worried about safety of the practical implementation of this export (we need safety of Ukrainian people, ships and grain, and also people in Ukraine are worried about the vulnerability of Ukrainian ports after the mine removal and about possible risks of attacking the southern territories of Ukraine by Russians from the sea - because, bearing in mind that there have been many cases of Russia's shelling of Ukrainian / the UN's / the Red Cross' humanitarian convoys during this war (in general, and especially those that were moving towards the Luhansk and Donetsk regions), it is difficult to fully trust Russia in cases like these).
So, as usual, I guess - hoping for the best, preparing for the worst.

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sjal
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:58 am 
 

sjal wrote:
a covert mobilization in Russia

Spoiler: show
sjal wrote:
Lane wrote:
Let's see if Putin will declare war with Ukraine tomorrow, as it is Russia's Victory Day (winning Nazi Germany in WW2)... Russia's war has to date been merely a "special military operation."

Well, Ukrainian military experts and military analysts say that one of the main reasons of the Russia's official declaration of war can be that it would allow for a general mobilization in Russia. On the other hand, there is a risk (or rather a chance) that this announcement of a general mobilization may cause protests from Russians (especially from those Russians who live in big cities - such as Moscow or St. Petersburg, because it seems that most Russians from those cities just want to watch on the TV how some Russian soldiers from (mostly) depressive regions of Russia kill/injure/rape/terrorize/rob Ukrainians and destroy Ukrainian infrastructure, but it seems they themselves are in no hurry to fight the Ukrainian army and to die here). The Russian leadership just became hostages of their own propaganda about the "courageous and unbeatable Russian army" so there is also a possibility that the official declaration of war is not gonna happen and they just continue to carry out a covert mobilization in order to send more and more cannon fodder to Ukraine, that's all.
And there is also one more version - the Russian leadership declare martial law only partially - in regions of Russia that are closer to the borders of Ukraine (such as Belgorod Oblast).

There is also this, more detailed, information about the covert mobilization in depressive regions of Russia - https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-min ... rn-ukraine

---
In general, it looks like the Russian military/political leadership is using money as the main motivator in this covert mobilization these days, which, unfortunately, works in those depressive regions because people have poor financial conditions and there is a lack of/no "normal" (civilian) and decent education/job for people from those regions.
---

There's a movement called the League of Free Nations (a political platform for decoloniziation of indigenous peoples in Russia & the acquisition of each nation's sovereignty) that is related to this. - https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/05/24/ ... /?swcfpc=1 , https://www.delfi.lt/en/politics/league ... d=90800243
To be honest, it looks like there is almost no chance/possibility/power for those people to change anything in their situation, but for Ukrainian people it looks at least more truthful and closer ideologically than all those famous Russian 'liberals' from Moscow/St. Petersburg who are, from the point of view of the majority of Ukrainian people, not credible at all (and in certain cases look like FSB agents) and who usually just say "No war" but at the same time many of them say that Crimea is Russian territory (where another group of indigenous people - Crimean Tatars - have been suffered from Russian occupation, by the way) and they also throw tantrums when they hear that the Ministry of Education and Science of Ukraine has decided to shorten the list of studying of Russian literature in Ukrainian schools..
---

sjal wrote:
there is also a confirmed information (from the Ukrainian military) that the Russian leadership is using Ukrainian residents (including civilians) of Donbass in order to fill the gap of human resources of the Russian army in this war.

And also about the mobilization in the Lugansk Oblast:
The situation seems terrible - there are so few men of military age left in Luhansk Oblast that even students and elderly men are being sent to the front line.

Quote from Serhiy Haidai (from the governor of the Oblast):
Quote:
"The ‘Luhansk People's Republic’ is turning into a ‘Women's People's Republic’ due to forced mobilisation – Russia is sending final-year students and people who have almost reached retirement age to the front line."

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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:13 pm 
 

And thanks a lot again for your support and for ''normal'' discussion in this thread, everyone.
I have nothing positive/reassuring (that can give some hope that the situation will not be so horrible) to add about the situation with those Russia's attacks on civilian objects in Ukraine, unfortunately.

Edit: it is also very revealing that Russia fired missiles at the port of Odessa less than 24 hours after the signing of the agreement on the export of the grain:
https://odessa-journal.com/explosions-t ... -the-port/

---
To be honest, the UN organization seems useless and can itself do almost nothing to provide/or to enforce to provide + to get under a control security in cases like these (and to provide security for civilian people and civilian objects in Ukraine/in the world in general during this war for that matter), so it seems they usually just wrote a clause like this about it in an agreement, and that's all:
Nothing in this Initiative will be deemed as a waiver, express or implied, of the privileges and immunities of the United Nations, and the Parties will ensure that the Initiative does not entail any liabilities for the United Nations
https://www.usubc.org/images/grain-agreement-p2.jpg

Also, there are people in international organizations like these who still say "conflict" instead of "war"…, seriously? :
António Guterres said: “This is an unprecedented agreement between two parties engaged in bloody conflict. But that conflict continues”
A shame!

---
And Turkey cannot give+fully provide any security guarantees/cannot take any more active action in cases like these because they are a NATO country.
---

At least, there is an information that the entrances to the Ukrainian ports (as well as the territory of the ports in general) are well guarded by the Ukrainian military (plus Ukraine got that Harpoon anti-ship missile weapon - for neutralizing Russian ships at a long distance), and there is also additional information that there would not be a complete mine removal of the Ukrainian ports - it would be possible for ships to pass through certain safe fairways there instead.

There is a theory that Russia just wants to 'get rid' of Ukraine as a competitor in selling grain to African/Asian countries - because, even if the Ukrainian export to those countries will work, Ukrainian ports still remain vulnerable to Russian missile attacks, and there is also the threat of drifting mines in the Black Sea (which were thrown there by Russia) - and therefore the insurance of ships that move from/to Ukrainian ports is increasing, and also the export process is longer and more complex, while Russia does not have these problems - I hope everyone remembers/or at least have noticed it in the article I posted that there were+is no sanctions on Russian grain - so Russia artificially created the delays in the supply of grain and difficulties/obstacles for the process of possible improvement of the situation with the food crisis in Africa:
Quote:
international sanctions against Russia did not target food exports


---
There are also some disturbing mentions of the growing risks of weapon smuggling from Ukraine during this war in the foreign media - I don't know what to say about it to be honest.
(There is also a huge amount of fake news from Russian propaganda about theft/trafficking/destruction of those heavy weapons, whose purpose is to discredit Ukrainian military and to disrupt the supply of weapons to Ukraine)

Ordinary people in Ukraine are also very concerned about it and hope that our government will do everything to control the situation and to prevent it.
The Minister of Defense of Ukraine says that it is (relatively) under control - there is always a risk of illegal exporting of "light weapons" (rifles, etc.) in small quantities, but there is much less risks of a similar situation for heavy weapons.

There is this information, but it will take time to move to these methods/standards:
Spoiler: show
Ukraine will use three special systems related to monitoring, control and logistical support of military equipment and arms provided by partner countries.

This was stated by Defense Minister of Ukraine Oleksiy Reznikov during the presentation of a new module of the SOTA information and analytical system for monitoring supplies of weapons to Ukraine from partner countries, according to an Ukrinform correspondent.

"There will be three systems related to monitoring, control and logistical support of military equipment and arms supplies to Ukraine," Reznikov said.

He noted that the Russians are now actively promoting the narrative about Ukraine's alleged improper use of weapons provided by international partners, so the introduction of a powerful and high-quality information monitoring system will allow having maximum control over supplies of weapons to Ukraine.

He recalled that the NATO LOGFAS logistics system was provided to Ukraine in limited amount in 2019. Relevant training courses for system operators have been launched at Ukrainian military educational institutions

The minister explained that the system allows controlling the process from customs operations at the border to deliveries to the final consumer. In addition, the system reports on the need for ammunition, spare parts, etc.

In addition, according to Reznikov, Ukrainian and American IT specialists created a new program that provides basic logistical approaches to arms control. It will be soon presented at a government meeting, the minister announced.

The third control system, according to the minister, will be the mentioned module of the SOTA information and analytical system. The minister also noted that today international partners have full access to check the effectiveness of their weapons being used in Ukraine.

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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:12 am 
 

Orbán is a miserable racist piece of shit, and a traitor too.

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sjal
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:28 am 
 

sjal wrote:
Also, there are people in international organizations like these who still say "conflict" instead of "war"…, seriously? :
António Guterres said: “This is an unprecedented agreement between two parties engaged in bloody conflict. But that conflict continues”
A shame!

There are mentions of the word "war" in more extended quotes from that meeting - https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/sta ... initiative, but still - I think it's important and preferable to always use such terminology around this subject by the UN officials, because there is a risk of taking out/separating their quotes from the context by journalists.

There are directives (that were related to this meeting) for the Ukrainian delegation that were published by the Ukrainian government, and there was a mention of it - so this is really important for Ukraine:
Quote:
the Ukrainian delegation was instructed to use the following phrases in official documents, messages, publications, information materials, and reports within the framework of the negotiations, including relevant statistics related to or provided by the Russian Federation, or posted and used on official UN internet resources and internet platforms:

- the words "war" and "invasion" when referring to the ongoing armed aggression of the Russian Federation against Ukraine and further threats to our state, in accordance with the statements and position of the UN Secretary-General


There were a lot of right, important, and promising/reassuring things for Ukraine and for the world said by the UN at that meeting, but it seems it's very difficult to implement them in practice…
---
It looks like the United States is much more realistic and is a re-insurer when it comes to assessing the likelihood of full (and safe) implementation of any plans/agreements that are related to Russia:
Quote:
US working on "Plan B" for Ukrainian grain exports following Odesa strikes, says USAID.

Spoiler: show
The United States is working with Ukraine on a "Plan B" to get grain exports out of the country following Russia's attack on the port of Odesa, US Agency for International Development (USAID) administrator Samantha Power said Sunday.

The strikes came just a day after Kyiv and Moscow signed an agreement to allow grain exports from Ukrainian Black Sea ports, leading to anger and concern over the future of a deal aimed at easing the global food crisis sparked by war.

"Plan B involves road and rail and river and sending in barges and adjusting the rail systems so that they're better aligned with those in Europe so that the exports can move out more quickly," Power told CNN's Larry Madowo in Nairobi, Kenya.
"We have been living the contingency plan because there's no way you can trust anything that [Russian President] Vladimir Putin says."

Some 20 million metric tons of wheat and corn are trapped at the port of Odesa, Power said, adding that despite the food security afforded by alternative routes out of Ukraine, "there is no substitute for Putin allowing the blockade to end and the grains being sent out the most efficient way possible."

She said she hoped the grain deal "somehow sticks" despite Russia's move to "immediately turn its back" on the agreement by attacking Odesa — the main port named in the accord.

US food aid: Last week, the US announced an additional $1.3 billion in humanitarian aid to the Horn of Africa, which is experiencing unprecedented levels of drought across Ethiopia, Kenya and Somalia.

"More than half of the wheat in the country of Somalia comes from Ukraine, it's trapped in the port of Odesa," Power said.

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-new ... f893738519

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Miikja wrote:
Orbán

As for Orbán, well, it was very clear from the beginning that he is a pro-Russian politician, so Ukraine (both the government and ordinary people) did not expect anything significantly positive/supportive from that side…
Hungary accepts refugees from Ukraine, and we are very grateful for that, but that's all.

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hakarl
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:38 am 
 

I genuinely read Orbán, at first as a nationalist, not a Kreml lackey. I was naive for not seeing that the two are always the same thing, one way or other.
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real_lulled
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Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:28 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:20 am 
 

Have you guys heard of any Black Metal musicians that joined Ukranian forces? All those nationalist bands such as Nokturnal Mortum, Drudkh that have explicitly displayed that in their lyrics.

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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:54 am 
 

sjal wrote:
Our President asks the USA to officially recognize Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism

+ Relatives of Azovstal defenders attend rally after tragedy in Olenivka with a call to the world to recognise Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism:
Spoiler: show
On Sofia Square in Kyiv on Saturday, relatives of Ukrainian prisoners of war from Azovstal and activists called on the world community to react to the tragedy that happened on Friday in the prison camp in occupied Olenivka, and to recognise the Russian Federation as a state sponsor of global terrorism.

A few dozen people gathered on the square, most of whom were relatives of the prisoners of war from the Azov regiment. Groups of people with placards stood on Sofia Square near the monument to Bohdan Khmelnytskyi.

The organiser of the event was the Vyrii initiative group with the support of the Association of Families of Azovstal Defenders.

Kateryna Prokopenko, wife of the commander of the Azov regiment, noted that when the defenders of Azovstal laid down their arms and went into captivity, the UN and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) assured that nothing would threaten their lives and health.

Similar rallies are also announced for 30-31 July in a number of cities and countries around the world, including Berlin (Germany), Krakow (Poland), Istanbul (Turkey), Montreal (Canada), Frankfurt (Germany), Geneva (Switzerland). Other locations will also be in Gran Canaria (Las Palmas), Warsaw (Poland), Batumi, Tbilisi (Georgia), Amsterdam (Netherlands), Alicante (Spain), Riga (Latvia) and London (United Kingdom).

Statement of the Association of Families of Azovstal Defenders: "We demand that Russia is recognised as a state sponsor of terrorism, which does not abide by the Geneva Conventions and violates all the rules of warfare.

We demand that the UN and the ICRC, which guaranteed the safety of Ukrainian prisoners of war, immediately respond to the terrorist act committed by Russia and send their representatives to the PoW camp in the village of Olenivka in the temporarily occupied territory of Donetsk Oblast as an inspection mission to find out the circumstances of the tragedy, the state of health of the injured and other prisoners of war, and to facilitate the transfer of the bodies of the killed prisoners of war to the Ukrainian side."

Background:

On the morning of 29 July, Russian-aligned propaganda media reported the shelling of a PoW camp in Olenivka, Donetsk Oblast where Ukrainian prisoners were held. Russia claimed that at least 53 prisoners were killed. The General Staff of Ukraine denied the Russian Federation’s accusations that the attack was carried out by the Armed Forces of Ukraine. According to the General Staff, the Russians were trying to cover up the torture and killing of Ukrainian prisoners of war.

Both the Ukrainian government and the international organizations definitely should have made more efforts and actions to save these Ukrainian fighters, especially given that the Russian military leadership and the Russian army tend to completely ignore the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions in this war.

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hakarl wrote:
I genuinely read Orbán, at first as a nationalist, not a Kreml lackey. I was naive for not seeing that the two are always the same thing, one way or other.

For us, this was more about economic-related signs - Hungary, like Germany, is very dependent on cheap Russian gas, so it would be a mistake to fully trust this country. And then the Hungarian leadership said that they would not give Ukraine any weapons, and they even banned the transit of weapons from other countries to Ukraine through the territory of Hungary (why?.. they are not a neutral country (like Switzerland, for example), they are a NATO country).
I think this was one of the toughest statements about Hungary from the Ukrainian government that I read:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 63148&_rdr

---

real_lulled wrote:
Have you guys heard of any Black Metal musicians that joined Ukranian forces? All those nationalist bands such as Nokturnal Mortum, Drudkh that have explicitly displayed that in their lyrics.

There is a martial law and a general mobilization in Ukraine these days - so, whether you write those kinds of lyrics or not, if you are a Ukrainian man of military age, you should at least check in/register at a Ukranian military registration and enlistment office, - that's all I can say.
Spoiler: show
Sorry, I can't help with this question at all because I know nothing about it - I'm not a fan of Ukrainian black metal, and this kind of music is not even close to being popular/well known in Ukraine as some people from abroad think (there are no any notes about these bands/people in Ukrainian news durind this war, most of the information that is related to Ukrainian bands/musicians in this war is about famous Ukrainian pop/rock bands/musicians (such as Sviatoslav Vakarchuk, for example - https://m.facebook.com/sviatoslav.vakarchuk ) and their direct participation in military trainings/battles, or about their participation in humanitarian/military charity, or about their Ukranian charity concerts for Ukrainian military/civilian people, or about their charity concerts abroad.

So if you want to find some information that is related to your question, I think you should just try to find some information from members of these black metal bands on their pages on social networks...

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Star_Fox
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:12 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:11 pm 
 

Washington's meddling in Ukraine forced Russia to go in and do the 'dirty work'. The main take away from this is that you don't take the piss out of Russia, but Biden and Co., in their bubble, don't care one bit.
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pyratebastard
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:05 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:45 pm 
 

Star_Fox wrote:
Washington's meddling in Ukraine forced Russia to go in and do the 'dirty work'. The main take away from this is that you don't take the piss out of Russia, but Biden and Co., in their bubble, don't care one bit.


Your well researched and poignant contribution to this thread is stunning and brave. You ought to be proud of yourself for standing up against all the truth and logic here in order to spread the word of your dear leader so nobly.
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Bishop_Drugsalot
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:32 pm 
 

real_lulled wrote:
Have you guys heard of any Black Metal musicians that joined Ukranian forces? All those nationalist bands such as Nokturnal Mortum, Drudkh that have explicitly displayed that in their lyrics.

At least a few NSBM bands are on the front lines, among them russian bands that were driven out of Russia back in the day. Prominent neo nazi figures like Levkin from M8l8th are fighting on the side of the ukrainians

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Star_Fox
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:12 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:53 pm 
 

pyratebastard wrote:
Star_Fox wrote:
Washington's meddling in Ukraine forced Russia to go in and do the 'dirty work'. The main take away from this is that you don't take the piss out of Russia, but Biden and Co., in their bubble, don't care one bit.


Your well researched and poignant contribution to this thread is stunning and brave. You ought to be proud of yourself for standing up against all the truth and logic here in order to spread the word of your dear leader so nobly.


I didn't address 'all the truth and logic,' and I guess your addressing my commenting in that fashion was also 'stunning and brave'. I just pointed out that Washington's meddling in Ukraine was a contributing factor to the unfortunate invasion. If I'm wrong, I guess we'll know in a few more years, as political scientists write up and publish their final analysis for the precursor, conflict, and aftermath. Until such time, let's run with 'Evil Putin, and big country, attacking little country.'

And, the UK relies on the BBC 24/7 news. We don't have lots of major news networks, like ABC, CNN, Fox, MSNBC etc
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pyratebastard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:08 pm 
 

"If Ukraine didn't want to be invaded, despite being a sovereign nation, it should not have sought closer ties to countries that weren't Russia. Russia had no choice but to invade them."

sounds a lot like

"If she didn't want to be violated, despite being single, she should not have talked to guys who weren't Vladimir. Vladimir had no choice but to violate her."

Have fun with that mindset.
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~Guest 285196
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:10 pm 
 

Bishop_Drugsalot wrote:
real_lulled wrote:
Have you guys heard of any Black Metal musicians that joined Ukranian forces? All those nationalist bands such as Nokturnal Mortum, Drudkh that have explicitly displayed that in their lyrics.

At least a few NSBM bands are on the front lines, among them russian bands that were driven out of Russia back in the day. Prominent neo nazi figures like Levkin from M8l8th are fighting on the side of the ukrainians

Yeah, he was actively recruiting for the Azov Battalion for years. I bet he's hiding in some hole far away from eastern Ukraine.

I follow Drudkh and Nokturnal Mortum on Facebook, but they don't really post that many updates. It's mostly links to fundraisers for volunteer groups and such. I reckon they'd let us know if some of them died. They're both in Kharkiv which is a location that has seen heavy combat. They are men in their mostly in their 40s I think, so they are not allowed to flee the country.

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Ezadara
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 455
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:45 pm 
 

Star_Fox wrote:
Washington's meddling in Ukraine forced Russia to go in and do the 'dirty work'. The main take away from this is that you don't take the piss out of Russia, but Biden and Co., in their bubble, don't care one bit.

Star_Fox wrote:
If I'm wrong, I guess we'll know in a few more years, as political scientists write up and publish their final analysis for the precursor, conflict, and aftermath.

Nah, we don't need to wait that long to recognize that your perspective on this is stupid and ignorant at best. At worst, it's knowingly carrying water for a half-pint despot who is forcing millions in Ukraine-- not to mention countless others in post-Soviet countries-- to suffer as a result of his delusions of grandeur. If your main takeaway is 'you don't take the piss out of Russia' then you have all the geopolitical insight of a rock and should keep your takeaways to yourself.

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Star_Fox
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:12 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:06 am 
 

Ezadara wrote:
Nah, we don't need to wait that long to recognize that your perspective on this is stupid and ignorant at best. At worst, it's knowingly carrying water for a half-pint despot who is forcing millions in Ukraine-- not to mention countless others in post-Soviet countries-- to suffer as a result of his delusions of grandeur. If your main takeaway is 'you don't take the piss out of Russia' then you have all the geopolitical insight of a rock and should keep your takeaways to yourself.


One just pointed out that Washington was partly to blame. I didn't expect rude and somewhat abusive statements because you want to project your feelings onto a conflict. And yes, at some point the story will change, just like Vietnam – just like Iraqi freedom. etc etc Quote, 'geopolitical insight'. He smiles.

Quote, 'keep your takeaways to yourself.' If Gov, corporations, and media collude, and deny differing opinions, that in essence is the definition of fascism. Well done, you. He claps.
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hakarl
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:58 am 
 

"Unfortunate invasion". This kind of wording attempts to absolve Russia of responsibility, re-framing the invasion as some kind of unavoidable outcome. Fuck. Off.
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Star_Fox
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:28 am 
 

hakarl wrote:
"Unfortunate invasion". This kind of wording attempts to absolve Russia of responsibility, re-framing the invasion as some kind of unavoidable outcome. Fuck. Off.


Ah, Finland. I see West Ham thump Norwich a couple of months back; Teemu Pukki played. He's decent – he's out there, with a decent scoring record. Adios.
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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:20 pm 
 

Thanks for the updates, sjal. Stay safe and well.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:45 pm 
 

Star_Fox wrote:
One just pointed out that Washington was partly to blame. I didn't expect rude and somewhat abusive statements because you want to project your feelings onto a conflict. And yes, at some point the story will change, just like Vietnam – just like Iraqi freedom. etc etc Quote, 'geopolitical insight'. He smiles.

Quote, 'keep your takeaways to yourself.' If Gov, corporations, and media collude, and deny differing opinions, that in essence is the definition of fascism. Well done, you. He claps.

Let's not be reductive here. There's a difference between differing opinions and confidently making a statement from a place of no empathy and lack of grasp on reality. Attacking ignorant or harmful viewpoints is much more justifiable than attacking other races, sexual creeds, genders, classes, etc. The latter is the form that fascism takes, not the former.

I still don't get how some folks are able to obliquely blame the US and UN for this war. I'd like to hear an explanation.
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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:50 pm 
 

Star_Fox wrote:
Washington's meddling in Ukraine forced Russia to go in and do the 'dirty work'. The main take away from this is that you don't take the piss out of Russia, but Biden and Co., in their bubble, don't care one bit.


I'm sorry, I just don't se what kind of "meddling" Washington (or anyone) could have done that would have forced Russia to invade Ukraine. I'm also unsure what "dirty work" you're referring to.

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:21 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
I still don't get how some folks are able to obliquely blame the US and UN for this war. I'd like to hear an explanation.
First rule of message boards: don't feed trolls.

How can you blame the US? Youth. When you still think of the world in vacuums. When you hate the US wholesale. When you think the US has no place; political, moral, or otherwise to be policing the planet; ignoring the fact that if country X steps away, country Y or country Z will gladly step into that role. And if Y or Z are bad actors, now the world, and you, have a whole set of new, possibly insurmountable problems. Ultimately, just projecting your irrational and emotionally wrong instinct onto everything. How can you blame the US? Or, you're trolling.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:42 pm 
 

I'm not so quick to dismiss Star_Fox's comments as trolling. In fact, I don't doubt that his statements come from a place of genuine conviction. I just want to know where they came from. As soon as you ask someone with a contrarian or ignorant viewpoint "why do you think that?", they often stutter or defeat themselves otherwise by outing themself as a bigger idiot.
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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:09 pm 
 

Yeah, it's really easy to write people off as 'trolling', but the fact is we need to seriously acknowledge and face this impulse that's particularly appeared on the left to compulsively fault 'the west/America' and thus feed into narratives promulgated by anti-US dictators and war criminals. I'm sure Star_Fox got a kick out of feeling contrarian and 'different', that's also a common thing among folks who have this mindset (it goes hand in hand with the mentality that they're the only ones who really 'get' the complexity and reality of the situation, unlike the sheep who get their simple narratives from the media). But I'm also sure he's genuinely convinced of the nonsense he's peddling, and that nonsense needs to be engaged-- if not because sometimes people really do change their perspective, then because people who may be witness to a discussion without participating in it should be made aware that they're hearing fringe, unrealistic ideas.

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naverhtrad
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:38 am 
 

Quote:
another group of indigenous people - Crimean Tatars


Dude, what the FUCK are you high on? Tatars are NOT indigenous to Crimea - they're a Central Asian people who settled in the Volga area. Probably they were plonked there by Stalin or the Ottomans or some shit.

My own distant ancestors were the Greuthungi tribe of Goths. A group of Greuthungi went and settled in Crimea in the 400s after the invasion of the Roman Empire and persisted there, speaking their own language, until the 1600s. And I guarantee you there wasn't ONE SINGLE Tatar living in that area through that whole time.

Greeks? Maybe. Sarmatians? More likely. Slavs? Came a bit later than us. But all of them have more of a claim to be 'indigenous' to Crimea than the Tatars do.

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naverhtrad
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:41 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Star_Fox wrote:
One just pointed out that Washington was partly to blame. I didn't expect rude and somewhat abusive statements because you want to project your feelings onto a conflict. And yes, at some point the story will change, just like Vietnam – just like Iraqi freedom. etc etc Quote, 'geopolitical insight'. He smiles.

Quote, 'keep your takeaways to yourself.' If Gov, corporations, and media collude, and deny differing opinions, that in essence is the definition of fascism. Well done, you. He claps.

Let's not be reductive here. There's a difference between differing opinions and confidently making a statement from a place of no empathy and lack of grasp on reality. Attacking ignorant or harmful viewpoints is much more justifiable than attacking other races, sexual creeds, genders, classes, etc. The latter is the form that fascism takes, not the former.

I still don't get how some folks are able to obliquely blame the US and UN for this war. I'd like to hear an explanation.


As the saying goes: Careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

I'm not Star_Fox, but I get to hear perspectives like his all the time, so I can probably do a semi-decent job of reconstructing it. Positions like Star_Fox's are actually not as fringe as you seem to believe, because a lot of people in nations outside the OECD club actually hold to them, particularly in Africa and Asia. You just don't hear them, and understandably so, because they very rarely get published in English (and more often so in French, Spanish, Chinese, Hindi or Urdu).

In order to understand this perspective you first have to have a basic grasp of the debt politics practised by the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and later the European Central Bank, which forced a number of such African and Asian countries to change their policies (particularly regarding social spending) behind the scenes to meet certain requirements for repayment and investment. In other words, the big investment banks of Brussels, London and Manhattan have been hanging these big fat juicy carrots in front of starving post-colonial nations for decades, but they always came with strings attached. Those strings usually included political hooks that included the suppression of communism or the cessation of any cooperation with the Soviet Union. More odiously to the people who lived in these indebted countries, the hooks often also included the suppression of any kind of political dissent, and the establishment of a far-right military regime which used horrendous tactics in keeping their own local populations in line. The use of IMF loans and debt politics to install and maintain in power bloodthirsty dictators like Mobutu, Suharto, Augusto Pinochet, Efrain Rios-Montt, Anastasio Somoza and (right next door to Ukraine) Nicolae Ceaușescu, was a well-established playbook for American foreign policy since the 1960s.

Fast forward to 2009.

At this time, Ukraine was preparing for one of its very first organised democratic elections and peaceful transitions of power since World War I. I remember this particularly well because I was living in Kazakhstan at the time, which was being ruled by post-Soviet dictator Nursultan Nazarbaev. Most ordinary Kazakhs that I talked to - that is to say, not former Soviet political officers or toadies of the regime - looked on the elections in Ukraine with a sense of hope. The attitude was: if they can do that over there, perhaps someday we can do that right here. Perhaps someday we can be rid of Nazarbaev - without a bloody civil war or uprising.

The winner of the elections, held in early 2010, was the opposition leader, Viktor Yanukovych.

Viktor Yanukovych was... by no means a saint. This was clear even at the time. He had massive conflicts of interests with various businesses. He had connexions to organised crime and to Russian oligarchs. He couldn't even speak Ukrainian that well, and spoke with a Russian or Polish accent (for which he got made fun of endlessly in the Ukrainian press, IIRC). But - and this was the important part to my Kazakh friends who were watching the election - he had been elected fairly and had taken office peacefully. He was living proof that the political system could be reformed for the better. He represented a vaguely social-democratic, Europeanising direction in Ukrainian politics that could be built on with better figures than himself.

People have forgotten this now, in hindsight, because of the events of 2013 and 2014. But when he was elected, Yanukovych was the candidate who represented democratic hope for Ukraine, and for much of the former Soviet Union besides. His victory as the opposition candidate to Tymoshenko, in a fair election open to international observers, was an open rebuke to dictators like Putin and Nazarbaev. And many people in Central Asia and elsewhere viewed the events of 2013 and 2014 far differently than Americans and Western Europeans did, precisely on account of this hope.

Now, coming back to the historical reputation of the IMF / World Bank / ECB.

The big issue in 2013, was whether or not Ukraine would be allowed to join the European Union. This had been a longstanding desire of Ukraine's political class since independence, and for good reason. European Union accession seemed to many of them, to be a golden ticket to a kind of democratic political utopia, one which would help them eliminate the corruption and political crises which had been plaguing all of the former Soviet states. However, the terms of the accession agreement that were set before Yanukovych contained a loan agreement as well. This loan agreement had a number of the same 'hooks' and poison pills that accompanied IMF / World Bank / ECB loans to 'developing' African and Asian countries in the 60s, 70s and 80s, which were designed to gut their political systems from inside, undercut local industrial growth and render them politically dependent on Brussels, London and Washington for the indefinite future. To put it bluntly, the EU Accession agreement which Yanukovych got blamed for not signing was a rotten deal for ordinary Ukrainians. Putin, sensing an opportunity to assert his own influence, placed in front of him a loan agreement with considerably more forgiving terms. And so Yanukovych stalled for time. This was a move that was politically fatal to him.

The unrest of late 2013 and early 2014 in Kyiv, the so-called 'Euromaidan' which overthrew Yanukovych in February 2014, seems to have been mostly genuine. People were upset with the ongoing corruption scandals and such, and they thought that supporting EU accession against Yanukovych would be one way of combatting that. But there were some bad actors who got involved in it early on, including far right Nazis and skinheads. Additionally, the unrest got coopted as a political weapon by the US State Department. The US State Department saw, probably correctly, an opportunity to install a corrupt far-right puppet state of their own amid the Euromaidan, and early on they latched onto Arseniy Yatsenyuk as their puppet of choice. Key to this understanding of the manipulations of the Euromaidan movement, was the acknowledged involvement of State Department officials like Victoria Nuland and organisations like NED in directing the political evolution of the protests.

This involvement in particular, as well as the presence of far-right neo-Nazi groups on the Maidan in Kyiv, led a lot of observers on the left wing of politics in the West, along with a large number of ordinary people of all political stripes in the rest of the world, to lose a certain degree of sympathy for the Ukrainian protesters, and to GAIN a certain degree of sympathy for the COUNTER-protesters, largely domestic supporters of Yanukovych, which began appearing in cities like Kharkiv, Odesa and Sevastopol, as well as in the now-contested oblasts of Donetsk and Lugansk.

[Full disclosure here. As a political lefty: the use of the SBU, basically death squads, by the post-Maidan authorities against the counter-protests in Kharkiv under the guise of 'anti-terrorism', and the mob action that burned down the trade unions building in Odesa, led me more than anything else to have a degree of sympathy with the Donetsk and Lugansk separatists. I'm no fan of Putin, who is as heinously opportunistic and self-interested a politician as the rest of them. But I'm emphatically less of a fan of such brutal police actions against innocent civilians with legitimate political grievances.]

At any rate, the people who (in good faith, I'm not talking about bots and trolls) obliquely blame the US for the current war in Ukraine, probably are coming at it from a perspective like the one put forward above. It's certainly possible to take issue with this perspective, but it has the benefit of being reasonable and grounded in a fact-based approach to economic history in places like Africa, Southeast Asia and Latin America.

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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:19 pm 
 

naverhtrad wrote:
Dude, what the FUCK are you high on? Tatars are NOT indigenous to Crimea - they're a Central Asian people who settled in the Volga area. Probably they were plonked there by Stalin or the Ottomans or some shit.

This is not the standard view among most historians and ethnologists. Crimean Tatars emerged as a unique (and yes, indigenous) group within Crimea out of the confluence of a number of different Turkic and European groups-- mainly Cumans, Ottoman Turks, Greeks, and as you know, the Crimean Goths. This process took place over years and years, but it has roots going back to at least the 14th century and it took place in Crimea (as opposed to your claim that Crimean Tatars had their ethnogenesis elsewhere and then settled in Crimea).

naverhtrad wrote:
A big block of text

I think a few different elements of your assessment here are ahistorical and don't make sense (in particular the absurd notion that Yanukovych's election was seen as a rebuke of Putin-- if anything, he was often regarded as something of a protege of Putin's despite his efforts to shed that image in 2010, and by all regards Putin was pretty happy with his election) but I don't want to debate that at this point so much as to point out that people like Star_Fox are definitely not thinking it through to this extent. Most westerners who reflexively need to view America (or 'the west') as the villain in any given scenario, against all reason and common sense, are not rationalizing it through the old 'IMF shenanigans' lens. I don't think Star_Fox has ever heard of Victoria Nuland.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:16 pm 
 

naverhtrad wrote:
As the saying goes: Careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

Spoiler: show
I'm not Star_Fox, but I get to hear perspectives like his all the time, so I can probably do a semi-decent job of reconstructing it. Positions like Star_Fox's are actually not as fringe as you seem to believe, because a lot of people in nations outside the OECD club actually hold to them, particularly in Africa and Asia. You just don't hear them, and understandably so, because they very rarely get published in English (and more often so in French, Spanish, Chinese, Hindi or Urdu).

In order to understand this perspective you first have to have a basic grasp of the debt politics practised by the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and later the European Central Bank, which forced a number of such African and Asian countries to change their policies (particularly regarding social spending) behind the scenes to meet certain requirements for repayment and investment. In other words, the big investment banks of Brussels, London and Manhattan have been hanging these big fat juicy carrots in front of starving post-colonial nations for decades, but they always came with strings attached. Those strings usually included political hooks that included the suppression of communism or the cessation of any cooperation with the Soviet Union. More odiously to the people who lived in these indebted countries, the hooks often also included the suppression of any kind of political dissent, and the establishment of a far-right military regime which used horrendous tactics in keeping their own local populations in line. The use of IMF loans and debt politics to install and maintain in power bloodthirsty dictators like Mobutu, Suharto, Augusto Pinochet, Efrain Rios-Montt, Anastasio Somoza and (right next door to Ukraine) Nicolae Ceaușescu, was a well-established playbook for American foreign policy since the 1960s.

Fast forward to 2009.

At this time, Ukraine was preparing for one of its very first organised democratic elections and peaceful transitions of power since World War I. I remember this particularly well because I was living in Kazakhstan at the time, which was being ruled by post-Soviet dictator Nursultan Nazarbaev. Most ordinary Kazakhs that I talked to - that is to say, not former Soviet political officers or toadies of the regime - looked on the elections in Ukraine with a sense of hope. The attitude was: if they can do that over there, perhaps someday we can do that right here. Perhaps someday we can be rid of Nazarbaev - without a bloody civil war or uprising.

The winner of the elections, held in early 2010, was the opposition leader, Viktor Yanukovych.

Viktor Yanukovych was... by no means a saint. This was clear even at the time. He had massive conflicts of interests with various businesses. He had connexions to organised crime and to Russian oligarchs. He couldn't even speak Ukrainian that well, and spoke with a Russian or Polish accent (for which he got made fun of endlessly in the Ukrainian press, IIRC). But - and this was the important part to my Kazakh friends who were watching the election - he had been elected fairly and had taken office peacefully. He was living proof that the political system could be reformed for the better. He represented a vaguely social-democratic, Europeanising direction in Ukrainian politics that could be built on with better figures than himself.

People have forgotten this now, in hindsight, because of the events of 2013 and 2014. But when he was elected, Yanukovych was the candidate who represented democratic hope for Ukraine, and for much of the former Soviet Union besides. His victory as the opposition candidate to Tymoshenko, in a fair election open to international observers, was an open rebuke to dictators like Putin and Nazarbaev. And many people in Central Asia and elsewhere viewed the events of 2013 and 2014 far differently than Americans and Western Europeans did, precisely on account of this hope.

Now, coming back to the historical reputation of the IMF / World Bank / ECB.

The big issue in 2013, was whether or not Ukraine would be allowed to join the European Union. This had been a longstanding desire of Ukraine's political class since independence, and for good reason. European Union accession seemed to many of them, to be a golden ticket to a kind of democratic political utopia, one which would help them eliminate the corruption and political crises which had been plaguing all of the former Soviet states. However, the terms of the accession agreement that were set before Yanukovych contained a loan agreement as well. This loan agreement had a number of the same 'hooks' and poison pills that accompanied IMF / World Bank / ECB loans to 'developing' African and Asian countries in the 60s, 70s and 80s, which were designed to gut their political systems from inside, undercut local industrial growth and render them politically dependent on Brussels, London and Washington for the indefinite future. To put it bluntly, the EU Accession agreement which Yanukovych got blamed for not signing was a rotten deal for ordinary Ukrainians. Putin, sensing an opportunity to assert his own influence, placed in front of him a loan agreement with considerably more forgiving terms. And so Yanukovych stalled for time. This was a move that was politically fatal to him.

The unrest of late 2013 and early 2014 in Kyiv, the so-called 'Euromaidan' which overthrew Yanukovych in February 2014, seems to have been mostly genuine. People were upset with the ongoing corruption scandals and such, and they thought that supporting EU accession against Yanukovych would be one way of combatting that. But there were some bad actors who got involved in it early on, including far right Nazis and skinheads. Additionally, the unrest got coopted as a political weapon by the US State Department. The US State Department saw, probably correctly, an opportunity to install a corrupt far-right puppet state of their own amid the Euromaidan, and early on they latched onto Arseniy Yatsenyuk as their puppet of choice. Key to this understanding of the manipulations of the Euromaidan movement, was the acknowledged involvement of State Department officials like Victoria Nuland and organisations like NED in directing the political evolution of the protests.

This involvement in particular, as well as the presence of far-right neo-Nazi groups on the Maidan in Kyiv, led a lot of observers on the left wing of politics in the West, along with a large number of ordinary people of all political stripes in the rest of the world, to lose a certain degree of sympathy for the Ukrainian protesters, and to GAIN a certain degree of sympathy for the COUNTER-protesters, largely domestic supporters of Yanukovych, which began appearing in cities like Kharkiv, Odesa and Sevastopol, as well as in the now-contested oblasts of Donetsk and Lugansk.

[Full disclosure here. As a political lefty: the use of the SBU, basically death squads, by the post-Maidan authorities against the counter-protests in Kharkiv under the guise of 'anti-terrorism', and the mob action that burned down the trade unions building in Odesa, led me more than anything else to have a degree of sympathy with the Donetsk and Lugansk separatists. I'm no fan of Putin, who is as heinously opportunistic and self-interested a politician as the rest of them. But I'm emphatically less of a fan of such brutal police actions against innocent civilians with legitimate political grievances.]

At any rate, the people who (in good faith, I'm not talking about bots and trolls) obliquely blame the US for the current war in Ukraine, probably are coming at it from a perspective like the one put forward above. It's certainly possible to take issue with this perspective, but it has the benefit of being reasonable and grounded in a fact-based approach to economic history in places like Africa, Southeast Asia and Latin America.

Hmmm. Thanks for laying all this out for me. Honestly, I haven't followed this war too closely or even thought about it enough to come to my own conclusion about it, even though everyone talked about it in my political science class back in the spring and Occam's razor suggests an obvious cause. I remember a video I watched months ago back when the war started (not related to that class) that had literally almost the exact same structure and talking points as all of that in the spoiler tag. I found the video to be interesting as far as history goes, but its conclusion said that the war was ultimately "avoidable". What I'm getting now is that some folks would take this and say that Ukraine's political environment is so bad that Russia's doing them a favor by trying to take over. Or, they'd be quick to place the blame on the West for "weakening" Ukraine, I guess, and giving Russia a good opportunity to step in.
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sjal
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:13 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
naverhtrad wrote:
Dude, what the FUCK are you high on? Tatars are NOT indigenous to Crimea - they're a Central Asian people who settled in the Volga area. Probably they were plonked there by Stalin or the Ottomans or some shit.

This is not the standard view among most historians and ethnologists. Crimean Tatars emerged as a unique (and yes, indigenous) group within Crimea out of the confluence of a number of different Turkic and European groups-- mainly Cumans, Ottoman Turks, Greeks, and as you know, the Crimean Goths. This process took place over years and years, but it has roots going back to at least the 14th century and it took place in Crimea (as opposed to your claim that Crimean Tatars had their ethnogenesis elsewhere and then settled in Crimea).

In this situation the most important thing is that both Ukraine + the European Union and international organizations officially recognized the status of the Crimean Tatars as "indigenous people", which can be an additional argument when it comes to the legal protection of these people and their rights.
Many of my posts in this thread are about things and topics that are related to a protection of human rights, so I thought it was obvious why I mentioned this in that context..
Spoiler: show
(I hope this is understandable why I am not going to comment on that phrase about "high on": I said in this thread that I have an anxiety disorder, but I do not use any medication these days (and if I got worse and needed to use it, then it was only legal prescriptions with "adequate" medications from my therapist and, believe me, posting on the internet would be the last thing I wanted+was able to do in that state of anxiety/panic attacks).


Last edited by sjal on Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sjal
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:12 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
Thanks for the updates, sjal. Stay safe and well.

Thank you. :)

I think that I write about very obvious things that everyone knows and understands (at least people who follow the news from this war), but then I communicate with my relatives - those who decided to stay in Poland as refugees - and they communicate with Polish people there and tell me about their conversations about Ukraine - fortunately, Poles are much more realistic and knowledgeable in general, but sometimes there is still some strange/wrong questions/answers/thoughts to those things/questions about this war that are obvious to people in Ukraine.
And I also read stories by a few other Ukrainian people who described similar situations in other countries, so maybe the general situation/course of main events on this war can be not as obvious/well-known as we think...

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
I'm not so quick to dismiss Star_Fox's comments as trolling. In fact, I don't doubt that his statements come from a place of genuine conviction.

During reading/writing in this thread, I realized that I'm not really into identifying trolling/not trolling messages in all these internet conversations (in offline conversations you can at least try to see the emotions of a person who is speaking, and it's easier to recognize things like that) so I usually take every question/opinion here as serious one, especially since it seems there are many people out there who think that NATO/the USA instigated this war.

NATO is expanding as a result of this war by the way (congratulations to Finland and Sweden, we are really happy for you that you have the opportunity and military capabilities to be in relative safety, and thank you very much for your support and help. ( I only don't know how much the residents of Finland and Sweden supported the idea of ​​joining NATO, I just heard that the percentages of support increased after the beginning of the large-scale war in Ukraine, especially among people who are civilians and women - I remembered that because it was the same with me in Ukraine after the beginning of this large-scale war)), but, fortunately, there is not much action/hysteria from Russia about it these days.

As for Ukraine, people here seem to be coming to terms with the fact that it is almost impossible for us to join NATO, but as our government says (and as evidenced by practice during this war), it is also impossible for us to be a neutral country because, with such an aggressive neighbor as Russia, it's impossible for us to survive and to protect our country only by Ukrainian forces and without support and help with weapons/trainings from other countries. So Ukraine can be only in the status of a "NATO partner", I think - https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm


Last edited by sjal on Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zurbum
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:01 am 
 

Putin's only doing what Stalin should have done many years ago


Last edited by Morrigan on Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Banned for obvious trolling

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sjal
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:28 pm 
 

^
I'm afraid to get an answer, but still I'll ask: is this message about the Crimean Tatars, or about Ukrainians, or about Finns (according to this historical analogy - https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... d-00008519 ), or about Europe/or the world in general?
Or this is just another "trolling"?..

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MorbidEngel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:32 pm 
 

Probably bad trolling.
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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:03 am 
 

Darkeningday asked him before to explain why he feels that way, but he "was at work" so he couldn't.

The whole thing sounds real legit.
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Zurbum
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:42 am
Posts: 39
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:00 pm 
 

CoconutBackwards wrote:
Darkeningday asked him before to explain why he feels that way, but he "was at work" so he couldn't.

The whole thing sounds real legit.


if that's referring to me yeah it's legit. I didn't answer back then since I was banned for some weeks for a couple of sentences due to having a different opinion lol so much for democracy

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henkkjelle
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 4402
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:14 pm 
 

Let's be real, if you're rooting for Putin you're not much of a democracy fan anyway.

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