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Zurbum
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:42 am
Posts: 39
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:24 pm 
 

I actually am a fan of democracy. I could reply to this that if you root for Ukraine you root for coups staged by NATO/USA there and elsewhere so you're not a fan of democracy yourself

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:12 pm 
 

Yeah, piss off, troll.
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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 1327
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:04 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Yeah, piss off, troll.
(salute)
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:29 am 
 

Just wanted to post the Speech by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Independence Day of Ukraine here in this thread for the history:

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/pr ... ya-n-77265

Spoiler: show
I should have posted the video yesterday, but yesterday the Russian army and its leaders decided to "congratulate" the people of Ukraine in Russia's usual perverted and violent way and there were a lot of air raid alerts in Ukraine, and there were also victims of rocket attacks among Ukrainian citizens (including children), so I wasn't in the mood and was not able to post here.

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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 853
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:48 pm 
 

I heard that Russians are contacting their real estate agent to get first dibs on property in Ukraine. I don't know exactly why, considering all the ugliness already in motion, but that really hit me.

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pyratebastard
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:05 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Pacific Northwest US
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:17 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
I heard that Russians are contacting their real estate agent to get first dibs on property in Ukraine. I don't know exactly why, considering all the ugliness already in motion, but that really hit me.


Information like that keeps us from our comfortable beliefs that it is simply the evil ones in power who are at fault for the horrors of the world. It's hard to stay positive when you know that your own neighbors may one day actively try to profit from your downfall.
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JCP524
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:45 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
I heard that Russians are contacting their real estate agent to get first dibs on property in Ukraine. I don't know exactly why, considering all the ugliness already in motion, but that really hit me.


Also, a lot of Ukrainian citizens are Russian sympathizers/collaborators.

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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 374
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:14 pm 
 

JCP524 wrote:
A lot of Ukrainian citizens are Russian sympathizers/collaborators.


Bullshit statement of the day.
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:39 am 
 

Miikja wrote:
JCP524 wrote:
A lot of Ukrainian citizens are Russian sympathizers/collaborators.


Bullshit statement of the day.


Miikja, thanks for your help here.
The previous post from the user JCP524 in this thread was considered as ''trolling'' so I didn't know if it was even necessary to reply to this post.
This ''Informational internet war in the digital age'' is a strange and not fully understood thing of this war for me - at first look, it seems that it does not make any sense to waste time and effort on these Internet "anti-disinformation/fight againts Russian propaganda" and "anti-trolling'' actions and that it cannot give any significant effect/change anything, and that only active actions in real offline life are important and have an actual sense and power, and give an actual results. ... And then you find out that there is something like this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFO_(group) which, at first, looks pointless and powerless, and seems to be something that can not be taken seriously, but it seems it can be effective and is really necessary. (It still remains strange and something that's hard to take really and seriously for me personally, though).
It's sad that this topic has some posts that are much more like meaningless and really bad trolling and that do not provide actual information..

Ok, in this particular situation, I can post something more rational and actually informative.
According to current official statistics (since February 24), there are 2091 cases of collaborationism (https://warcrimes.gov.ua/en/all-crimes.html)
It's sad and disgusting (and had (and continues to have) many negative consequences) that there are such things in Ukraine, but I don't know how much this number (objectively) fits into the "a lot" criterion - given the fact that Russia puts so much time, effort and money into the propaganda, spreading its narratives in Ukraine/the world in general and also bribing local officials/politicians (and as for the latter, there are suspicions/theories that it works not only in Ukraine but also in a few other European countries and even in some international organizations).

As for the support of the Russia's actions (and Russia in general) by the population of Ukraine in general, this is of course a huge exaggeration and really looks like another very bad trolling in this thread - even if you put aside emotions that this is an inadequate comment in this situation in general (especially after all those war crimes and violence of the Ukrainian people done by the Russian occupiers) and talk more about facts, you can find statistics on Internet from a few social surveys, which show that the attitude and support of Ukrainians towards Russia and Russians has decreased much. An example - https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=r ... 112&page=1
There was also a lot of support from Ukrainians for the idea of ​​​​introducing a visa regime with Russia, for example - https://petition.president.gov.ua/petition/134744
I can say on a personal note that there is no one from the people whom I personally know who (would) support Russia in this war (but I don’t know how much this can be taken into account as representativeness, because I and the people I know live either in the western or in the central regions of Ukraine/or in Kyiv, and there wasn't any significant support of Russia there even before the start of the full-scale war).

It is also worth mentioning that there is such a thing as the specificity of a psychology of society in post-colonial countries and the difficulties of getting rid of it, and also when it comes to the occupied territories (especially those who were occupied by brutal force - such as Mariupol, followed by aggressive propaganda and limitation of sources for a possibility of receiving information from the "outside world") - about the survival instinct (not only for your own, but it can be also for the safety and salvation of your children/loved ones), as well as about such a condition as the Stockholm syndrome. So even if there is some support there, this does not mean that it can be always 100% rational/voluntarily and a behavior that is usual and normal when compared with a behavior in a safe situation/course of events in your 'normal' everyday life.


---

As for the current news in Ukraine, there were a lot of very unsettling news about the actions of Russian occupiers at Zaporizhia Nuclear Power Plant, but there (finally) are representatives of the IAEA at the station, so hope for the best ...

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Aldrahn333
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:28 pm
Posts: 477
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:42 am 
 

Not that I'm a fan of, but I think the West should return to the nuclear energy. It is safe and secure and it can starve for cash the regime of Kremlin thugs, since that oil and gas are mostly what generate money for them. In the perspective, no more reliance on authoritarian regimes (China included). And Ukraine should be supplied until help is needed.

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 5570
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:11 pm 
 

there were more collaborators with russia pre the invasion and especially pre 2014 than there is now. Even a lot of Russians living in Ukraine are not pro Putin.

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nekuomanteia
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:37 pm
Posts: 601
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:05 pm 
 

(idiotic trolling removed)


Last edited by Morrigan on Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Member banned for trolling this thread, and blatant racism in another thread

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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:04 am 
 

After more than six months of "a special military operation" with all that internal Russian propaganda where "everything is going according to a plan" and "there are no losses among the Russian military/or they are minimal/acceptable" (and at the same time with active covert mobilization), the Russian leadership cynically decided to officially announce a partial mobilization (which concerns military reserve forces) in Russia...

Not that people in Ukraine are too shocked/terrified by these news - everyone knew that there was always a risk of it, but it can definitely make the situation on the front more difficult for our defenders in the future, and there is also a risk that it will make the war much longer in time, and with more deaths (both military and civilian people).
There has also been news about Russia's planning of those illegal pseudo-referendums in the occupied territories, - which has already been criticized by NATO leaders, the USA and also by several European countries - which is good and important in itself plus it is always a consolation (and gives a hope) for people in Ukraine to see such support, but one of the problems is that one of the reasons/consequences of these referendums may be that Russian leaders and military will carry out (or, as in the case of the so-called LPR and DPR, will continue to carry out even more intensively) forced mobilization of the Ukrainian citizens there, and this may also increase the repressions of Ukrainian citizens by Russian occupiers during + after these referendums on those territories. We have already heard and seen the news about a large number of the graves/mass graves of Ukrainian residents and about exhumed bodies with their hands tied and with traces of torture in the deoccupied Kyiv region (from cities like Bucha) earlier, and there was also similar horrible and tragic news from the deoccupied city Izium of the Kharkiv region lately, and we are afraid that it's also happening in the Kherson and Zaporizhia regions these days and that there were and continue to be many violent deaths and tortures of Ukrainian people by Russian occupiers there.
And since it seems that people in Russia are not able to do and significantly change anything in this situation with covert/partial mobilization, plus it seems the mobilization-related laws have been changed/added by the Russian government - that make things much harder for those people in Russia who want to avoid this mobilization/participation in hostilities - https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/09/20/7368257/ (plus there seems to continue to be some significant pro-war support from some people in Russia), it seems that the main solution and hope is for continued support from the USA (and that the Lend-Lease will work from October) and for continued support from many European countries (there were also (again) hints by the Russian leadership on a possibility of use of nuclear weapons by Russia, so I don't know...).

Aldrahn333 wrote:
Not that I'm a fan of, but I think the West should return to the nuclear energy. It is safe and secure and it can starve for cash the regime of Kremlin thugs, since that oil and gas are mostly what generate money for them. In the perspective, no more reliance on authoritarian regimes (China included). And Ukraine should be supplied until help is needed.

I read about it, and it looks like newer and more modern nuclear power plants are much safer than earlier versions of them (such as the Chernobyl nuclear power plant) in general, but that's only if your neighbor is not Russia - that seems to have decided to arrange and to commit acts of nuclear terrorism on the territory of Ukraine. There was news recently about a shell hit very close to the reactors of another Ukrainian nuclear power plant, and this is very unsettling - https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine ... kyiv-says/

But yes, in general, it looks like use of nuclear energy might provide a solution to at least some of those problems with energy resources.

The situation with Europe's dependence on Russian gas/oil is definitely very difficult to solve, and it complicates things a lot.
There has been news that Germany (which is very dependent on Russian gas supplies and which seems to have created much more gas-oriented energy/heating system and industry than other European countries) is trying to do alternative supplies with some Asian countries (like Qatar and the UAE).
Plus, as further alternatives, there has also been news about planning of more use of wind power for generating electricity - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ify%20wall, which is safer not only for people but also for environment.

People in Ukraine have also been warned that this (and also next) heating season will be very difficult in itself, and also because Russia continues to do rocket attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure (and on gas lines, heating lines and CHPs, plus TPPs in particular), - so we are preparing for everything (including a sudden shutdown of heat supply).

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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 374
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:47 pm 
 

Roger Waters once again has no idea what he's talking about:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/roger-waters-ukrainian-kill-list-1234604081/
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Prigione Eterna
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Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
Posts: 161
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:44 pm 
 

Miikja wrote:


Perhaps he goes a little too far and takes for good too much of the opposite side's propaganda.
But personally, I understand where he's coming from. It's the framing of the whole thing in the media that any thinking person should find suffocating.
In a piece like that, you already have a bad guy from the start. If you criticize Israel, you're anti-semitic; if you support negotiations with Russia, it's appeasement; we are pro-democracy and the others are not, so we have the right to intervene anywhere we please.
Ignoring the glaring responsibilities of the West in provoking the war in such a blind, narrow-minded, short-sighted way is unnerving and farcical.
So I don't completely agree with him, but it's all very frustrating and hypocritical.

On second thought, I hope this particular piece doesn't reflect too faithfully the mindset of the people who consume the media.
Framing the war as purely a matter of "human rights" is especially misguided. Joining NATO isn't a human right. On the other hand, even if this was only about human rights, ignoring that the world order is based on nuclear deterrence and advocating for the fight to go on no matter the consequences for the rest of world is foolish all the same. It's like justifying a suicide bomber because he's fighting for a right cause.
If that's the point we're at, it's very worrying. But I hope there are more sensible opinions around.

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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 374
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:29 pm 
 

Prigione Eterna wrote:
Miikja wrote:

If you support negotiations with Russia, it's appeasement.


Negotiations...

Image

Negotiations?

Really?
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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 853
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:37 pm 
 

Prigione Eterna wrote:
Miikja wrote:


Perhaps he goes a little too far and takes for good too much of the opposite side's propaganda.
But personally, I understand where he's coming from. It's the framing of the whole thing in the media that any thinking person should find suffocating.
In a piece like that, you already have a bad guy from the start. If you criticize Israel, you're anti-semitic; if you support negotiations with Russia, it's appeasement; we are pro-democracy and the others are not, so we have the right to intervene anywhere we please.
Ignoring the glaring responsibilities of the West in provoking the war in such a blind, narrow-minded, short-sighted way is unnerving and farcical.
So I don't completely agree with him, but it's all very frustrating and hypocritical.

On second thought, I hope this particular piece doesn't reflect too faithfully the mindset of the people who consume the media.
Framing the war as purely a matter of "human rights" is especially misguided. Joining NATO isn't a human right. On the other hand, even if this was only about human rights, ignoring that the world order is based on nuclear deterrence and advocating for the fight to go on no matter the consequences for the rest of world is foolish all the same. It's like justifying a suicide bomber because he's fighting for a right cause.
If that's the point we're at, it's very worrying. But I hope there are more sensible opinions around.


what in the flying fuck are you talking about?

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Prigione Eterna
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Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
Posts: 161
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:51 pm 
 

Miikja wrote:
Negotiations...

Image

Negotiations?

Really?


Please, I'm aware it's not pretty, but I mean negotiations to avoid nuclear war.
If it comes to that, then there's no peace nor freedom for anyone anymore. Only death.
It's not the cause I disagree with, it's the method.

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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:03 am 
 

Miikja, ZenoMarx, many thanks, again, for your help in this thread.

Prigione Eterna wrote:
Miikja wrote:
Negotiations...

Spoiler: show
Image


Negotiations?

Really?


Please, I'm aware it's not pretty, but I mean negotiations to avoid nuclear war.
If it comes to that, then there's no peace nor freedom for anyone anymore. Only death.
It's not the cause I disagree with, it's the method.

Just wanted to clarify that you also had to understand that this phrase can be perceived by Ukrainian people in a similar way as "I'm not a racist, but..." phrase is perceived by people of a non-white race..
Even if your message does not look so crude, the essence in this particular situation remains very similar tbh.

A similar approach/point of view is not unexpected/shocked for Ukrainian people anymore, and it isn't new for this thread in particular, there was a similar approach to this war earlier in this thread:

darkeningday wrote:
We're goading Russia into declaring war on Ukraine, and with many of these sanctions directly juicing Russia's war chest with the soaring gas prices and the Ruble (and the Yuan) performing better than any other currency in the world, the cost of burning an entire nation and murdering its innocent population is beginning to fade. To borrow from Thomas Friedman, this is Putin's atrocity but we're doing everything in our power to turn it from a serious war crime into the greatest humanitarian disaster since WWII..

And yes, we also know that there is a risk that this will happen in real life.

You also need to understand that people in Ukraine do not support the negotiations with Russia not because Ukrainians are "suicidal" (this is a strange comparison to be honest, I think Ukrainians have shown very clearly that they appreciate life - but a free life, not a slavery, torture and a slow death under the Russian occupation), but because, after all these events and mass acts of the genocide of Ukrainian people by Russian occupiers during this war, we do not trust Russia at all anymore, and there are no guarantees that Russia will stop the occupation of Ukraine and will not continue to occupy some other territories of Ukraine in the future either, - that's why there is this decision - https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/10/4/7370293/

As for the situation with a possible escalation by using of nuclear weapons by Russia, one of the things that I personally hope is that the USA is able to warn and frighten the Russian leadership with threats that are related to personal lives of the Russian leadership - i.e. not in a way that some city / region in Russia can be destroyed by a retaliatory strike, but personally - the Russian leadership/their relatives will be killed and that it's one of the ways that may prevent a use of nuclear weapons (at least, strategic ones) by the Russian leadership+military.
The Russian leadership have been creating a cult of war, violence and death in Russia for years (Just read about the process of mobilisation of people in Russia in this war, for example. I recently saw this photo in the context of a discussion about the mobilization in Russia and I think that it is very symbolic and emotional for this situation, and it is able to convey the essence of current/future state of things, espesially in depressive regions of Russia -
Spoiler: show
Image
), but it doesn't look like the Russian leadership themselves are ready to die (with all that obsession with self-security/bunker lifestyle and the like, they look much more like those ones who have a strong fear of death). Instead, it seems they just hope that they will be able to scare the world with threats of possible use of nuclear weapons to such an extent that the world will decide to sacrifice Ukraine and its inhabitants+territory.

---
Ok, now I would like to add something more informative for people from Russia:
There is information for the Russian soldiers who do not want to participate in hostilities on the territory of Ukraine and who want to surrender to the Ukrainian military - https://dovidka.info/ru/kak-soldatu-rf-sdatsya-v-plen/

Please, distribute this information, especially if you have relatives/friends/acquaintances from Russia who do not want to carry out criminal military orders of the Russian military on the territory of Ukraine and who want to survive in this war.


Last edited by sjal on Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prigione Eterna
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Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
Posts: 161
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:49 am 
 

Let's see if I can elaborate.
I think, at this point, Ukrainians can only do so much to avoid nuclear escalation.
If they are willing to risk their country being destroyed, well, at least in principle, it's their country and their lives that are at stake.
But what I find frustrating is that in the West, especially the US, talking of negotiations is taboo because it implies recognizing that it's not anybody's right to expand NATO indefinitely no matter what the consequences.
Joining a military organization has geopolitical implications that can't be ignored. It's such an elementary point that it can only be misunderstood by constantly subjecting people to mind-numbing propaganda.
Ukrainians are willing to accept any help, even if it means risking direct confrontation between nuclear powers, and as I said you can blame them only so much for it.
But the Western countries should stop pretending they don't have a role in all this and that this is only about human rights and the struggle for democracy etc. etc.

All I think that could be said to Ukrainians is to think carefully about the consequences of the course of action they choose to take, especially when it comes to international diplomacy. Listening to the hardliners may mean that tomorrow there could be no country left to defend.
Speaking of racism, people like King understood that the method you choose implies certain consequences, and they chose peaceful resistance rather than open war.
Of course, it's hard to find a perfect comparison, but I hope the point comes across.
I repeat, it's not the cause, it's the methods I'm talking about.

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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 374
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:13 pm 
 

The 'brief history' I posted above shows rather clearly that Russia has always been hostile toward Ukraine (and its other neighbours, I should add) and that any given pretext (like the NATO expansion myth which has already been debunked to death) just serves as an excuse for Putin to do what he's always had in mind: annexation of Ukrainian land. The reason negotiations are taboo is not because the 'West' has to recognise some kind of inconvenient truth but simply the fact that, as Sjal has stated before me, Putin absolutely cannot be trusted to honour any kind of agreement. Everything has been a lie with Russia and Ukraine in particular has no reason to trust them ever again.
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Prigione Eterna
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:51 pm 
 

I'd rather not go into details about which global superpower is the most trustworthy and respectful of human rights, but I'd say that Russia is in good company.
Regardless of that, it doesn't matter what we think. The Russian government thinks Ukraine joining NATO is an existential threat and proceeding along that road is guaranteed to take NATO and Russia to direct confrontation, which could mean nuclear war.
Unfortunately, until the world order is no longer based on the nuclear threat, any tyrant or lunatic which possesses the nuclear weapon must be handled with care.
Every diplomatic and political decision that doesn't take this simple fact into consideration is foolish and reckless.
Sure, there's no guarantee such a concession or even more will lead anywhere, but given the stakes, a diplomatic route based on the neutrality of Ukraine must never be off the table.
Otherwise, if we're willing to gamble with our lives, we can assume we know enough not to trust the Russians and hope that Putin is either bluffing or considerate enough not to resort to nuclear weapons. But that's what it is: a risky bet.
Is it better to be remembered by history as the one who left the door open until the very last moment, or as the one who pulled the trigger first?
Assuming there will be somebody to remember history, to borrow somebody else's words.

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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 374
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:34 pm 
 

Based on the historic list of atrocities Russia has caused in Ukraine (and, again, its other neighbouring countries), is it any surprise that they would seek protection in a military partnership? It's almost as if Russia caused this problem for themselves.

Even so, the West HAS handled Putin with care. Regard the Wandel durch Handel approach that seemed so hopeful in establishing post Cold War relations with Russia. We were naïve. Ukraine said it would remain neutral, there was no current talk about them joining NATO. But it didn't matter, Russia invaded anyway. Like I said, the NATO myth has been debunked to death, especially by Putin himself. He was going to invade Ukraine all along and all the talk in the world would not have made a difference. He promised the world he wouldn't, then went ahead and did anyway. All this bullshit NATO rhetoric, it's gotten so old so fast.
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Ivan Drago
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Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:10 pm
Posts: 292
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:22 pm 
 

Miikja wrote:
Negotiations...

Image

Negotiations?

Really?

Never knew about any of this, although so much is similar to what the British did to Ireland

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sjal
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:29 am 
 

^
Yes, the history of the Irish people is also very sad and has a lot of tragedy and suffering, unfortunately. I fully realized and felt it when I heard Primordial - there is something very similar in their music and atmosphere, plus in emotional vocals and lyrics, that is very easy to feel, empathize and to get into for me as a Ukrainian. A mix of sadness and epic, tragedy and fighting. I was a fan of this band and was sincerely happy for Irish people that they have such a metal band but at the same time that this band and their lyrics were not related to those NSBM-related/hatred for Jewish people things that Ukrainian black metal bands tend to have. (Later I found out that Alan Averill also has some questionable views, and now I rarely listen to this band and am not interested in their new releases anymore. When I want to listen to something that has a similar mood and atmosphere, I listen to Ukrainian non-metal bands/artists that have "normal" lyrics and views).

Also, Ireland has an awesome fishing community that is ready to defend their territory - they have not been afraid of Russia and have successfully organized peaceful protests against Russian warships - https://news.sky.com/story/victory-for- ... h-12528426

---
Prigione Eterna, sorry, I did not realize that your message was so much related to the discussions about NATO, I thought it was only about the question of the reasons for Ukraine's refusal to negotiate with Russia.
Well, I wrote about my point of view about it before:
To be honest, I am very skeptical about all these discussions about possible accession of Ukraine to NATO - from my point of view, it is very unlikely that this will ever happen at all. Ukraine had intentions to join NATO before, but it was rejected under the influence of Germany/Merkel and the like, and now it seems that there are still similar points of view/policy of "concessions/agreements with Putin / saving Putin/Russia face" from the same politicians/countries, so people (ordinary people) in Ukraine do not expect any positive response from there anymore.
The NATO summit will be in June 2023? Let's see what happens by that time and how it may affect the situation...

(And yes, I also agree with Miikja that, despite the fact that NATO did a lot of things to distance itself from this war as much as possible and not take a direct part in it now and before (and Ukraine also tried to help to avoid escalation), Russia still has the same accuses that NATO is a problem).

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Prigione Eterna
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Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
Posts: 161
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:16 am 
 

sjal wrote:
Prigione Eterna, sorry, I did not realize that your message was so much related to the discussions about NATO, I thought it was only about the question of the reasons for Ukraine's refusal to negotiate with Russia.
Well, I wrote about my point of view about it before:
To be honest, I am very skeptical about all these discussions about possible accession of Ukraine to NATO - from my point of view, it is very unlikely that this will ever happen at all. Ukraine had intentions to join NATO before, but it was rejected under the influence of Germany/Merkel and the like, and now it seems that there are still similar points of view/policy of "concessions/agreements with Putin / saving Putin/Russia face" from the same politicians/countries, so people (ordinary people) in Ukraine do not expect any positive response from there anymore.
The NATO summit will be in June 2023? Let's see what happens by that time and how it may affect the situation...

(And yes, I also agree with Miikja that, despite the fact that NATO did a lot of things to distance itself from this war as much as possible and not take a direct part in it now and before (and Ukraine also tried to help to avoid escalation), Russia still has the same accuses that NATO is a problem).


No problem, your reasoning is much more balanced and thoughtful than many in the West's, which in itself is telling.
The crucial point is that NATO has played by the rules, trying so far to avoid direct confrontation, but the fact is that it remains a formidable expansive force. This is rooted in the ideology, dare I say the culture, NATO is based on. And, despite the efforts, it shows from public declarations of its members, almost like a Freudian lapsus.
This is the inconvenient truth it's not allowed to discuss. When you think it is a God-given right to meddle in everybody's affairs because you deem your vision of the world/system of beliefs to be the best and to impose it on others, you're inevitably on a collision course.
Even if you formally abide by the rules (which, actually, the US and its allies are unparalleled in disregarding, but never mind) when you put it in terms of "us vs. them" or "democracy vs. autocracy" or whatever, people take notice.
For us, the little people, whose only concern in life should be to shut up and go to work, this may be OK; but when the people who actually have power, the elites, start taking seriously their own propaganda, that's a problem. The consequences can go far beyond bickering at dinner or on social media.
It's even a philosophical (almost theological) matter, because admitting that means the whole ideological structure your power is built on crumbles from the foundation. It's fundamentalism we're dealing with.

Therefore, my problem is entirely with Western culture and establishment.
Ukraine, in my opinion, is guilty of having fallen prey to the hardliners, but aside from that and most unfortunately, it's the same predicament any peripheral region has ever been in, in relation to imperialist centers of power. The comparison with Ireland is good.
Alas, it's not easily nor quickly solved, as history shows; certainly not with US G.I. Joe-style interventionist solutions.

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Miikja
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:26 am 
 

Indeed, NATO has expanded over the course of its existence. And it's worth noting that the populations of the newer member states were under Moscow's rule until the Soviet Union collapsed, with the exception of the former Yugoslavs (who were still treated by Moscow as a satellite state). I got the timeline from nato.int: Czechia (1999), Hungary (1999), Poland (1999), Bulgaria (2004), Estonia (2004), Latvia (2004), Lithuania (2004), Romania (2004), Slovakia (2004), Slovenia (2004), Albania (2009), Croatia (2009), Montenegro (2017), North Macedonia (2020). All of them newly autonomous nations with memories of the Prague Spring still in mind. I think it serves the discussion about NATO expansion to ask why these countries chose to join the alliance. Joining is a process that usually takes a considerable amount of time and effort (action plan), so we can safely say it requires commitment from each party.

Cultures are inevitably, by their very nature, on a collision course. It doesn't take a military alliance to see that. The thing is that Russia wants to destroy Ukrainian culture, literally, as has been amply demonstrated in the past and again recently by ridding libraries of Ukrainian books. Mordor Russia very much wants to impose its rule and culture on a neighbouring country. So the idea that NATO is pressuring Ukraine into membership is absurd. If anything, NATO members have held the boat off, wary of conflict with Russia. It's the exact opposite: Russia is responsible for Ukraine wanting to join NATO. Perhaps if Russia thought better of its neighbours and treated them accordingly, things would have looked very different. I guess we'll never know. Does the West meddle in other countries' affairs? You bet. Does China meddle in ours? You bet. Does Russia meddle in our affairs? Does night follow day?

So yes, everybody is constantly trying to influence everyone else. But you know, I really like some of the propaganda. Human rights for example. I do hope our politicians are taking that seriously because it is a serious issue. And I don't think that's just a 'western' point of view. Apart from the obvious shortcomings in our own societies, I'm pretty sure that all people across the world, regardless of culture, agree that they are entitled to fair treatment. Are we supposed to ignore the fact that our brothers and sisters are mistreated just because it happens in a far away country? Nope. And by the way, I completely disagree with the notion of "Us, the little people, whose only concern in life should be to shut up and go to work". That's not how democracy works.
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Prigione Eterna
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:16 am 
 

Miikja wrote:
Cultures are inevitably, by their very nature, on a collision course.


On the other hand, all of us have neighbours where we live; each of them is a different human being, each have their culture, their philosophy, their ideals, their skin colour. But miraculously, we manage not to blow each other up with bazookas all the time.
As for human rights, if one wants to be objective, there's a very eloquent historical record about the efforts of the West to uphold them, from continent to continent. If one wants, I stress.
That people wear blinkers so thick that they don't realize how ridiculous they can get would be funny, if there wasn't reality to deal with, and that makes it scary.
Reality is that there are people around the world, who we may not like, that have the means to destroy it. For better or worse, this is the world order based on the threat of mutual annihilation that we've inherited.
While with conventional warfare we could happily blow each other up in the name of whatever notion of greater good, not so with nuclear warfare. What's also funny is that people like Kennedy understood that and managed to find a compromise despite the world back then being way more polarized than now; today, he would be considered pro-Putin.

Quote:
That's not how democracy works.


Luckily we have an example of democracy such as the US, where less than half the population votes (especially minorities; let alone the indigenous population, who are mercifully allowed to live in enclaves), the elections are bought by big corporations, the most populous States have less power than the ones inhabited by a few fervently religious farmers and you can stage a coup d'état, still be at large, run for the next elections and possibly win them.
That's domestically. No need to bother with inferior countries, who can be bombed, their leaders assassinated or be subjected to sanctions to starve them until they get more sense.
It makes you revalue the Mafia. They don't need you to believe the Gospel. They just say "we are stronger, so you obey or else". They are more honest than NATO zealots.


Last edited by Prigione Eterna on Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Miikja
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:43 am 
 

I politely request that you remove the Godwin. That was uncalled for. The context of my writing shows where I stand but to clarify: yes, cultures collide and there's friction when they do but I didn't say it means one is better than the other. Come on.
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Prigione Eterna
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:04 am 
 

It's supposed to be a paradox.
My point is that if you're willing to risk the destruction of the world for an ideal, no matter how noble, it's insanity.
There are plenty of ways to fight each other tomorrow, but we have to last 'till tomorrow.

OK, had to do a quick search for the meaning of the expression, but now I understand your request, yet it remains a misguided idea.
I assume nobody takes this stuff personally, it's very ugly, but so is the situation. You can change the words, but the point is the same.

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Ezadara
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:54 am 
 

Prigione Eterna wrote:
Luckily we have an example of democracy such as the US, where less than half the population votes (especially minorities; let alone the indigenous population, who are mercifully allowed to live in enclaves), the elections are bought by big corporations, the most populous States have less power than the ones inhabited by a few fervently religious farmers and you can stage a coup d'état, still be at large, run for the next elections and possibly win them.

If you're interested in having a good faith discussion (and I'm going to assume that you are) you should be aware that this habit of deflecting criticism or legitimate concerns by shifting the goalposts and reorienting the conversation around America's perceived shortcomings is a classic strategy employed by the Russian government to justify its abuses. The US 100% has legitimate faults that need to be discussed, but nothing in Mikija's post had anything to do with America's internal flaws and there was no reason for you to bring them up other than to deflect from the broader point of Ukraine's victimization by Russia.

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Prigione Eterna
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:17 pm 
 

Fine, but if you want diplomacy to work, you have to make an effort and put yourself in the other one's shoes, play devil's advocate. There's no way around it; if you think the other one is completely unreasonable, evil incarnate, no deal will ever be possible.
The other reason why I brought it up is that before declaring your opposite unworthy of trust and enemy of democracy (whatever you think it means), and being willing to make such a gamble as risking nuclear war on that assumption, you should ask yourself what you are.

I'd like to add that a discussion in good faith also implies not having to automatically disclaim accusations of appeasement or support for atrocities anytime you try to bring an argument to the table that doesn't fit the propaganda.
This was my initial point, to which I was prompted by reading the interview to Roger Waters. It also goes beyond the question of the war in Ukraine, which is only the pinnacle of the hypocrisy and overflow of crocodile tears.
Or having to rephrase sentences because certain things ought not be said like they are; although there's a case for not being too crude and feed the already suffocating heat, maybe it's worth asking ourselves if it's not a way to make ourselves comfortable.

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sjal
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:22 am 
 

It's hard not to post something in response that is based only on emotions after all those intense rocket / Iranian Shahed drone terrorist attacks on civil facilities/infrastructure that Russia has been doing these two days in Ukraine
Spoiler: show
I won't repost all the news about it, but I think it's important to post this:

Image

It seems that in this particular case it doesn't look like some kind of "revenge" for the attack on the Crimean bridge (which is not clear that it's Ukraine did it, there are also Russian FSB VS Russian military internal 'wars'- related theories) that some people think, it seems that it was pre-planned by Russia, and, judging by the statistics on the affected objects that Russia tends to aim for these two days, it looks like these concerns are very relevant in this situation:
sjal wrote:
People in Ukraine have also been warned that this (and also next) heating season will be very difficult in itself, and also because Russia continues to do rocket attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure (and on gas lines, heating lines and CHPs, plus TPPs in particular), - so we are preparing for everything (including a sudden shutdown of heat supply).

(I am writing this message and the air raid siren (starting in the morning) is still going on - https://alerts.in.ua/, so forgive me in advance if I suddenly do not answer your messages here at all one day - shelters are not very safe and effective here, unfortunately, and Ukraine does not have the anti-aircraft ability to shoot down all the air missiles/drones that Russia launches (especially when they are numerous), although our air forces are always trying to do their best using all the military resources Ukraine have), but I will try:

Prigione Eterna wrote:
Ukraine, in my opinion, is guilty of having fallen prey to the hardliners, but aside from that and most unfortunately, it's the same predicament any peripheral region has ever been in, in relation to imperialist centers of power. The comparison with Ireland is good.
Alas, it's not easily nor quickly solved, as history shows; certainly not with US G.I. Joe-style interventionist solutions.

From this message, it looks like some people think/believe that Ukraine did not support/did not try to come up with peaceful solutions at all, which is not true - https://youtu.be/EXdK6Bz7aYw?t=256

And if you try to convince Ukrainians that Ukraine should have agreed to a "peacekeeping mission" that consists of only militias from Russia, this means that you know nothing about/don't fully understand what the "Russkiy Mir" is and what happened (and keeps happening) in those regions.
Russia is not capable of things like these and its leadership was/is not interested in an actual peace at all, this is a fact which has been confirmed in sad and tragic practice many times.

I advise you to check out the activities of Russia in the UN Security Council and its history of using the right of veto in that organization - I would say that it looks much more like one of Russia's main goals there was (and is) to interfere in peaceful-oriented process/course of events in the world and to destabilize situations/aggravate conflicts (and to use them for Russia's own profit, of course), not to mention the fact that Russia itself created/organized many "conflicts" in other countries/within Russia.

Also, there are many very relevant, sensible and informative references and conversations about the European part of the post-USSR countries in this context here, but I also advise you to look closer at what is happening in its Asian part these days (especially in those countries that are part of that strange ''artificially created by Russia'' CSTO organization).
Look at how Azerbaijan and Armenia are behaving these days, for example - the Russian military had to left that region (as one of the side effects (for Russia) of significant losses of the Russian army during the war in Ukraine), and, after some time, when Armenia realized that Russia as an "ally/defender" is very unreliable, those countries began to try to negotiate with each other (with the participation of the countries of the European Union who now is taking a leading role in mediating the Armenia-Azerbaijan normalisation process).

It looks like Russia is slowly losing its toxic influence over the countries of the Caucasus (it's sad that the Georgian government seems to remain pro-Russian), and it doesn't look like a bad thing to me.

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Prigione Eterna
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:34 am 
 

Again, this seems to have become a recurring theme, but I wasn't suggesting any of that.
As you say yourself, it's hard not to let emotions get in the way in moments like these. It's understandable, but politicians should try and avoid making that mistake, which I'm afraid is what prompted the Ukrainian government to ban attempts to negotiate by decree (whatever actual effectiveness can such a decision have) on the wave of consternation that followed the recent events.
This is only the latest news, but it goes back. It should have been anticipated that things like integrating far-right paramilitary organizations into the army or ventilating ideas of joining NATO in response to Russian interference would have exacerbated the crisis.
The former, in particular, is pandering to disgraceful nationalist hardliners that, while giving ample possibility for exploitation by Russian propaganda, can hardly be justified as having any real benefit for or support of the rest of the country. The latter, while arguably a last resort kind of policy, goes to the heart of the problem by crossing what Russia considers a red line.

Nevertheless, maybe I should repeat that, at this point, I'm afraid the ball is pretty much in the US' side of the court. I don't know if there's much room to maneuver for Ukraine, except resisting the best they can and at least formally keeping the door open for a diplomatic solution.

As difficult as it feels to discuss such matters in a situation like the present, perhaps let's hope it can be a manner to constructively prepare the way to brighter days.

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sjal
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:30 am 
 

^
Well, Ukrainian lawyers try to separate their work from emotions and started their own "peace-oriented mission" from the very beginning - https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/eng/ ... 8/7135492/, and international law isn't really about emotions either, but Russia tends to ignore anything law-related that is related to this war and that is not beneficial to Russia itself (later Russia said that the UN International Court of Justice does not have jurisdiction to consider this case, which is also wrong).
It is very clear that Russia wants to break the normal and legal system of international relations and create a system where only power and threats (including the use of blackmail with nuclear weapons, not as a protection/defense of its own internationally recognized territories but with the aim of invasion, aggression/violence and annexation of territories of independent sovereign countries) matter, but for some reason some people continue to blame the USA/NATO and consider them as the main problem. I have no energy for such discussions, to be honest, and it seems the arguments are over, sorry.

Edit: typos (sorry for my low level of English)
+ and "to separate their work from emotions'', not vice versa (hope it was
understandable in the context), it's like the arrangement of words in the phrase "to separate the art from the artist"


Last edited by sjal on Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Miikja
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:59 am 
 

Good to have you, Sjal. Stay safe.
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sjal
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:40 pm 
 

Miikja, thanks for your kind words and for the support.

It seems, in addition to previous 'typical' Russian terror and killing of civilian people by using chaotic shelling of houses/schools/office centers/streets, etc., Russia is trying to destroy Ukrainian critical infrastructure and to create many problems with the electricity and water (which also is dependent from electricity) supply.
There were big problems in several regions (and especially in the city of Lviv) with it, but there has been a lot of work done to normalize the operation of electricity systems, so it wasn't as catastrophic as we thought.
There were no attacks/problems with electricity in my city (in Khmelnytskyi Oblast), but there was a planned outage of electricity today for several hours (in the evening) in several areas of the city, and the Ukrainian government also asked people in Ukraine to use electricity sparingly, especially during the evening hours - https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/10/12/7371661/.
Ukraine also stopped exporting its electricity to Europe due to this situation (but as far as I understand, this is not too critical for Europe).
It is also good that the weather in this October is relatively warm here, perhaps this will make it possible to start the heating season a little later.

There is good news from the USA and Europe about the supply of some anti-aircraft systems to Ukraine, so we hope the situation will be a little better and safer here (or at least this may allow our military to keep it at the previous level, because the Soviet/Ukrainian systems are limited and there was a mention somewhere that there are not so many missiles for them in Ukraine either - because of all those Russians intense rocket/aircraft attacks during this war, our military had to use them a lot. Our military also shot down some targets using MANPADS - but it's more difficult).

Edit: there is also good news from The U.N. General Assembly - https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129492

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 4:05 am 
 

Miikja wrote:
Good to have you, Sjal. Stay safe.

Co-signed.
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sjal
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:24 pm 
 

Morrigan, thank you for your personal support, and also thanks again for the MA support of Ukraine in general.


Those Russian attacks on civilian targets by using Iranian kamikaze drones continue to cause problems, deaths and destruction in Ukraine. :(
Today there were another Russian attacks on Kyiv - most of the drones were shot down, but there were also a few that hit (it looks like Russia was aiming at a thermal power plant, but the drones hit residential buildings and there are deaths/injuries among civilians, including the death of a pregnant woman :( ).
There's also an unsettling assumption that, besides the drones, Russia wants to get some ballistic missiles from Iran, and this can be very bad because these missiles (that are similar to the Iskanders) are almost impossible to shoot down. Russia used Iskanders at the beginning of the full-scale war - but then at least some of those missiles were aimed at military targets (which is also bad), now Russia's missile/drone attacks tend to target civilian objects and critical infrastructure.

After all those previous Russian terrorist attacks on civilian objects in Ukraine, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) has adopted a resolution calling the Russian Federation a terrorist regime on Thursday, 13 October:
"this aggression must be unequivocally condemned as a crime, as a violation of international law and as a major threat to international peace and security."

There was also a time when we waited for the USA's official recognition of Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism, but the USA said something like "it won't help/change anything (because there are already many economic sanctions against Russia, and from the USA in particular), and there is a high risk that it (indirectly) negatively affect Ukraine'' (from what I understand, not making this decision about official recognition of Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism by the USA saves the possibility for many countries/corporations to carry on business/supply of resources with Russia).

Ezadara wrote:
The US 100% has legitimate faults that need to be discussed, but nothing in Mikija's post had anything to do with America's internal flaws and there was no reason for you to bring them up other than to deflect from the broader point of Ukraine's victimization by Russia.

I think that a discussion of the internal situation in the USA and how this (may) affects its foreign policy (or how the USA's internal situation can be perceived by other countries, and especially when it comes to the discussion about the future elections in the USA) can be very relevant in the context of this war these days, but in my opinion it may be more many-sided in the context of discussions of the USA and EU relations.
It's very clear that Ukraine is very dependent on the USA support in this situation, and we really cannot change it and do not have possibilities to do something really significant about it because this support is too critical and substantial for Ukraine in this war - so we just live in "hope for the best..." condition, but as for the European Union, it looks like, in addition to its main planning to significantly reduce its dependence on Russian resources and Chinese goods/labor, the European Union is really planning to take into account the risks that are related to a possible change in the political situation in the United States in the future and is considering reducing the European Union's dependence on the USA (both military and energy resources-related) and working on additions/alternatives to it important - https://www.eeas.europa.eu/eeas/eu-amba ... borrell_en , which is good in my opinion - it's good to have more additions/alternatives in your security.

I'm also glad for Poland (where my closest relatives live now because of this war) that this country has been much more cautious and far-sighted (and not like Germany), and now, with that Baltic pipeline, they have a possibility to use gas from Norway - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJKchLRJXk
It's not cheap, but it's a real alternative.

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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:35 am 
 

Those drone attacks are terrible, and the Russian asshole saying "we hit all targets" - they don't even hide anymore that they specifically target civilians. Not even an attempt. They know we know, they don't care. Horrible. Hopefully the rest of the world can send all the anti-drone materiel we can to stop this new threat.

In the meantime, this gives country double the incentive to tell Iran to fuck off and impose more sanctions - because of the violences going on there, and also because of their support for Russia.

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