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ThrashTilDeath530
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 13, 2022 1:17 pm
Posts: 64
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:18 pm 
 

I grew up as basically the only metalhead I knew. None of my family or friends were into it, and that's fine. You really are going to have to accept that different people have different tastes. They don't need to "wake up", and they aren't uncultured or stupid because they don't like the same music you do.

When you say things like you can't stand all the profanity and gangsta shit in hip hop, but then go on to say that you really like the part in Dismember's Skin Her Alive where he says SKIN HER FUCKING ALIVE, I have to ask, do you hear yourself?

Do you know what metal sounds like to non-metalheads? They'll tell you it sounds like mindless noise with Cookie Monster screaming about murder and shit. They cannot tell the difference between Dismember and Destruction, and they aren't interested in learning.

This is exactly what you sound like when you dismiss hip hop for being all about bitches, money, and crime. You're not from the US so you're not going to get the context of a lot of what they're referencing in their lyrics, and that's fine. The music was not made for you to understand. Just don't listen if you don't like it.

Every genre of music sounds "the same" to people who dislike it. I recommend you get over it and just enjoy what you like.

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Sepulchrave
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
Posts: 1994
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:37 pm 
 

I for one find people who have deep knowledge and experience of a particular genre of music much more interesting to talk to than some hipster who "listens to everything" and "broadens horizons". I wouldn't worry about it if you don't like hip hop, but that guy was not trolling you. Just be sincere with yourself and listen to whatever you find meaningful.
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I drank a lot of cheap beer and ate three Nacho BellGrandes. A short time later I took a massive messy shit and I swear it sounded just like the drums on Dirty Window from Metallica's St Anger album.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:42 pm 
 

Sepulchrave wrote:
some hipster who "listens to everything" and "broadens horizons"

So... Anthony Fantano?
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I really don't want power metal riffing to turn into power metal yiffing any time soon.

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LycanthropeMoon
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 pm
Posts: 2296
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:58 am 
 

I already posted them in the "worst non-rock music" thread, so I might as well mention them here. Going to the UK and then seeing the Cheeky Girls on TV was utterly traumatizing. No, I will never get over that. What the fuck were the Brits thinking when they let that shit get popular? Someone from that godforsaken island, please explain.

I mean, I guess it's kinda funny and now I like showing them to unsuspecting people... but still.

Also, gonna be real for a sec here - Kendrick Lamar is exceptionally talented and is actually quite clever lyrically imo. Some curse words don't change that.

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TheBurningOfSodom
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:28 am
Posts: 598
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:34 pm 
 

Um, so this one just because it's quite recent (literally two days ago). So - long preamble - I work in a town that's a half an hour drive from mine. You might guess it was only a matter of time that my ~300 songs playlist (mostly non-metal stuff already) on the USB pen (before you say it yes, I still use mp3s and don't have Spotify) I used in my car before eventually got redundant, so I started recovering a lot of famous bands I never found an occasion to hear, or wrote off way too much time ago when I was still pretty close-minded - so I had always something new to listen on every trip. There were either things I liked right off the bat (i.e. The Hellacopters, The Stone Roses), or stuff that partially let me down, but still respect (Pearl Jam's Ten apart from its singles, for example).

Two days ago I decided to hear what was behind all those shirts you see around and downloaded both Joy Division's albums. Maaan 'unpleasant' is a euphemism. I endured a good half of Unknown Pleasures and just the first song of Closer before folding. The instrumentalists often felt like they were playing different songs from each other in their minds, and I have literally never stopped thinking for one second that Ian Curtis got world famous just because of his tragic death, because his vocals were absolutely laughable and impossible to take seriously. Of course, if somebody can enlighten me on why they were special, I'm listening. For now, worst drive of my life so far :|
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~Guest 280883
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
Posts: 556
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:29 am 
 

TheBurningOfSodom wrote:
Two days ago I decided to hear what was behind all those shirts you see around and downloaded both Joy Division's albums. Maaan 'unpleasant' is a euphemism. I endured a good half of Unknown Pleasures and just the first song of Closer before folding. The instrumentalists often felt like they were playing different songs from each other in their minds, and I have literally never stopped thinking for one second that Ian Curtis got world famous just because of his tragic death, because his vocals were absolutely laughable and impossible to take seriously. Of course, if somebody can enlighten me on why they were special, I'm listening. For now, worst drive of my life so far :|


I can try, I guess. Do you have any experience with similar bands or bands from roughly the same era? Have you ever listened to Gang of Four, The Cure, Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Buzzcocks, Magazine...? These bands are not punk (well, Buzzcocks were), but they come from punk, and they have an amateurish approach to playing as a principle. Try to focus on the bass lines and see if anything appeals to you there, because a lot of Joy Division's music hangs on the bass. For Curtis' vocals, yeah, he was technically a bad singer, but try to listen for the emotions he's trying to convey and how his voice works with the lyrics and their imagery.

Another thing to consider, this is not easy listening. This is intentionally difficult music, and the amateurish approach and the shambolic performances were in part a reaction to the dry professionalism of mid-to-late 70s mainstream rock. What I'm saying is, this music is unwelcoming by design, and it just may not be your thing. If you want to keep trying, listen to their two most accessible singles, neither of which is on the two proper albums: "Atmosphere" and "Love Will Tear Us Apart". These are usually the entry points for JD for most people. If it's not for you, it's not for you.

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TheBurningOfSodom
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:28 am
Posts: 598
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:45 am 
 

These are all fair points and thanks for reaching out :) but, ahem, I'm not really familiar with any of those bands except a bit of Buzzcocks... so I guess I might have seen it coming since it's stuff so different to what I'm accustomed to. I mainly just tried to understand their immense popularity but I definitely lack the proper background to do so. The fact that a lot of their admittedly intriguing themes of despair don't really connect with me, as I luckily lead a moderately happy life and I rarely delve into this kind of quasi-depressive music, may also be of some importance.

I did already know the singles, though - I guess it's just not for me as you said. One can't understand everything :lol:
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Big, juicy, veiny, throbbing hard riffs. Big heavy knuckle dragging, cock swaddling compositions for those in fear of soap/bathing. Listen at your own risk. No signs of intelligent life.

It's the dawn of descending...

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~Guest 280883
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
Posts: 556
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:08 am 
 

Yeah, seems like you gave it a fair try and it's just not for you.

TheBurningOfSodom wrote:
One can't understand everything :lol:


Ain't that the truth. There's some stuff out there that's so outside of what I'm used to, I can just tell that I'm not going to get it even after the 100th listen, so I just don't bother.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35177
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:04 am 
 

Joy Division isn't really something I play a lot, but there's a cool hypnotic kind of groove to them and Ian's vocals are a nicely deep Gothy sort of thing that goes well with it all. It's not really about rocking out or being accessible, so it's understandable that some wouldn't vibe with them.

This song's pretty different from their more "rockish" stuff... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR0ytCjcSL4
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TheBurningOfSodom
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:28 am
Posts: 598
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:44 pm 
 

Wahn_nhaW wrote:
Ain't that the truth. There's some stuff out there that's so outside of what I'm used to, I can just tell that I'm not going to get it even after the 100th listen, so I just don't bother.

Exactly this. One should never stop keeping an open mind and questioning his/her own tastes, but there will always be something that just doesn't click with you. I guess that's why art is subjective after all lol.

Empyreal wrote:
Joy Division isn't really something I play a lot, but there's a cool hypnotic kind of groove to them and Ian's vocals are a nicely deep Gothy sort of thing that goes well with it all. It's not really about rocking out or being accessible, so it's understandable that some wouldn't vibe with them.

This song's pretty different from their more "rockish" stuff... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR0ytCjcSL4

'Hypnotic' is definitely the most apt description I could think of. The song you posted is a great example although I wonder why they didn't use synths that often in other songs. I understand more when they're going all-out for ethereal stuff like in this case. Still not my cup of tea, but an interesting listen. I would never have ventured so far through Closer, that's for sure... 'Atrocity Exhibition' really put me off :lol:

Though looking back at it the main 'fault' is mine... it isn't really something you can enjoy while driving, on a basic stereo system haha.
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A very promising new reviewer wrote:
Big, juicy, veiny, throbbing hard riffs. Big heavy knuckle dragging, cock swaddling compositions for those in fear of soap/bathing. Listen at your own risk. No signs of intelligent life.

It's the dawn of descending...

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~Guest 280883
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
Posts: 556
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:59 pm 
 

Was gonna say that in my first reply, not exactly driving music, hahaha. :D

You know, "Closer" is a pretty abrasive album and it opens with one of their most abrasive songs. Only their debut EP is comparable in coldness and user-unfriendliness.

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funeralravens
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:08 pm
Posts: 296
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:47 pm 
 

Hip-hop is so different from anything that I listen to that I simply can't evaluate it. It's just completely alien to me. Comparing it to Blind Guardian or any other band is futile, it's more on the level of Slipknot or Limp Bizkit.

I don't see this supposed "deepness" of hip-hop honestly. Like The Bard with Bright Eyes, I can only hear some N-words and stuff about money and bitches, so from this I can conclude that these lyrics are about the most primal of human instincts. Maybe there's some deep meaning buried beneath this layer of vulgar profanities, but the same could be said about Anal Cunt or Torsofuck. For some reason nobody argues that Anal Cunt or Torsofuck are deep, though. Maybe the enjoyers of hip-hop/rap kind of treat it like those humorous goregrind/pornogrind bands like Gutalax? Music doesn't have to be deep to bring fun.

ThrashTilDeath530 wrote:
Do you know what metal sounds like to non-metalheads? They'll tell you it sounds like mindless noise with Cookie Monster screaming about murder and shit. They cannot tell the difference between Dismember and Destruction, and they aren't interested in learning.

This is exactly what you sound like when you dismiss hip hop for being all about bitches, money, and crime. You're not from the US so you're not going to get the context of a lot of what they're referencing in their lyrics, and that's fine. The music was not made for you to understand. Just don't listen if you don't like it.

That's a good point, to each their own. That's the beauty of free choice.
Wahn_nhaW wrote:
I can try, I guess. Do you have any experience with similar bands or bands from roughly the same era? Have you ever listened to Gang of Four, The Cure, Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Buzzcocks, Magazine...?

I actually don't really like Joy Division either, although I get the appeal. On the other hand, I like some The Cure and Siouxsie songs. Also, even if you don't like these early post-punk/gothic rock bands, doesn't mean that you won't enjoy any goth rock. Fields of The Nephilim would probably be more enjoyable for a typical metalhead, even though they expand on the foundation built by the above-mentioned bands.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35177
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:00 pm 
 

Kendrick wrote:
How much a dollar really cost?
The question is detrimental, paralyzin' my thoughts
Parasites in my stomach keep me with a gut feeling, y'all
Gotta see how I'm chillin' once I park this luxury car
Hopping out feeling big as Mutombo
Twenty on pump six dirty Marcellus called me Dumbo
Twenty years ago, can't forget
Now I can lend him a ear or two how to stack these residuals
Tenfold, the liberal concept of what men'll do
Twenty on six, he didn't hear me
Indigenous African only spoke Zulu
My American tongue was leery
Walked out the gas station
A homeless man with a semi-tan complexion
Asked me for ten rand
Stressin' about dry land
Deep water, powder blue skies that crack open
A piece of crack that he wanted, I knew he was smokin'
He begged and pleaded
Asked me to feed him twice, I didn't believe it
Told him, beat it
Contributin' money just for his pipe, I couldn't see it
He said, my son, temptation is one thing that I've defeated
Listen to me, I want a single bill from you
Nothin' less, nothin' more
I told him I ain't have it and closed my door
Tell me how much a dollar cost
It's more to feed your mind
Water, sun and love, the one you love
All you need, the air you breathe


Yeah nothing but cursing and misogyny for sure
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funeralravens
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:08 pm
Posts: 296
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:11 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Yeah nothing but cursing and misogyny for sure

I agree that this is not too bad. There's definitely room for deep stuff in this genre, but it seems to me stuff like this is in the minority, because most of the rap music I hear on TV/at public venues is a far cry from this. Still, I don't really like the music itself, so this genre is not for me. But that's okay. It's not like I'm being forced to listen to this stuff, although I kind of wish I had more relatable music to share with the people around me.

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~Guest 1452000
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:28 am
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:25 pm 
 

^ Try this, your friends will think you're super cool


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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35177
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:31 pm 
 

funeralravens wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
Yeah nothing but cursing and misogyny for sure

I agree that this is not too bad. There's definitely room for deep stuff in this genre, but it seems to me stuff like this is in the minority, because most of the rap music I hear on TV/at public venues is a far cry from this. Still, I don't really like the music itself, so this genre is not for me. But that's okay. It's not like I'm being forced to listen to this stuff, although I kind of wish I had more relatable music to share with the people around me.


All his lyrics are great and so is plenty of other hip hop I'm guessing. Same for if people said all metal was just noise.
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5158
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:37 am 
 

The Bard with Bright Eyes wrote:
a guy who said that, despite being a metalhead, there is more good hip hop than metal.


Regardless of how much I like hip-hop, and there are some great albums for sure, I can't imagine ever agreeing with this. There is much more great metal then there is great hip-hop. If you want to listen to hip-hop, you have to dig through a pile of mediocre junk before finding anything good. Hip-hop as a genre also evolves so extremely slowly because so many artists are just content with copying whoever is great and innovative at the moment.

In general, I have a much better time discovering new metal as there is so much quality stuff coming out all the time.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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Posts: 35177
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:40 am 
 

Eh I dunno, I don't know how you'd qualify what whole genre has more good stuff I guess. I don't think it has to be a contest. I mean for metal you have to dig through the vapid Amon Amarths, Ghosts, Battle Beasts, Hammerfalls and melodeath garbage and other shit to actually get to the good shit too. Obviously just my own taste there but I don't see how you'd compare or measure different genres.
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:19 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Eh I dunno, I don't know how you'd qualify what whole genre has more good stuff I guess. I don't think it has to be a contest. I mean for metal you have to dig through the vapid Amon Amarths, Ghosts, Battle Beasts, Hammerfalls and melodeath garbage and other shit to actually get to the good shit too. Obviously just my own taste there but I don't see how you'd compare or measure different genres.


Comparing hip-hop and metal musically would be a challenge and really wouldn't make sense at the end of the day, IMHO. But just considering the amount of quality music coming out of metal versus hip-hop is where my opinion stems from. It is, obviously, very subjective.

It sure doesn't help that when talking about hip-hop with people in general, I feel like and outlier. When I name stuff like Jedi Mind Tricks, Digable Planets, dälek or Swollen Members, and people look at me weird because I didn't say Drake, Kendrick Lamar or Kanye West.

I'm not saying I'm some kind of genius for knowing/liking these artists, as they are fairly well-known, but hip-hop being such a big part of the mainstream, there is a culture surrounding it that I really have a hard time connecting with. Popularity, ego, "charts", capitalist shit, and the fact that a sizeable part of hip-hop's audience is a bunch of normies without any sense of artistry in what they are looking for in the "entertainment" they "consume". Now obviously I don't think this applies to all hip-hop fans, nor does I ignore the fact that there are a lot of douchebags in metal. But all in all, I tend to connect with the metal community much more, which also helps me enjoy the music more. With hip-hop it's usually a pretty solitary exploration of the genre for me, as the fans often get on my nerves.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35177
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:06 pm 
 

I never really go too deep into "the audience" for anything. Partly because it doesn't reflect on the art itself, but also because my own tastes are often quite different from what people like when I go deep into stuff.

I'm not even that well versed on the multitudes of hip hop artists out there. I know the last three Kendrick albums I consider flawless, and Kanye's Yeezus is a brilliant transgressive thing... and I've liked stuff from A Tribe Called Quest, Run the Jewels and some others, but eh I check stuff out at my own pace. I just find it funny to try and rank entire genres.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:46 pm 
 

Yeah, it's really difficult to talk about genres as a whole, particularly when you're eyeball-deep in one and only skimming others, you're too biased to really say. There are some genres where the ratio of bad music is really low, I would say jazz is one of them, but every genre has fantastic stuff if you search long enough and/or know where to look.

Hip-hop and electronic music are two genres where the floor is pretty low though. It's possible with software for someone with no musical skill whatsoever to slap together a few half-assed beats and release them. I guess technically you can do the same with metal, but you generally at least kind of have to be able to play a bit of guitar to record anything. But with electronic music especially there's an ocean of variance in quality. And there's so much of it, partially because the barrier to entry is so low. The best stuff is quite superb though.

HeavenDuff wrote:
Jedi Mind Tricks


Empyreal wrote:
A Tribe Called Quest


These are two of the best hip-hop acts. Stoupe is one of the best at creative layering of samples, some really gorgeous production work in their first half-dozen albums or so. And ATCQ has jazz-rap down, getting Ron Carter on The Low End Theory was a master stroke.

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ThrashTilDeath530
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 13, 2022 1:17 pm
Posts: 64
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:48 pm 
 

One potential argument I could see for metal having at least a higher percentage of quality is this: Hip hop is still very popular and gets mainstream attention all the time. Any new artist can follow the current trends and with a little bit of luck and (hopefully) talent, become a major star. Or at least get one big hit (which can pay the bills for a long, long time in some cases).

Metal artists don't really have that. No bedroom black metal artist is going to suddenly put out a song that gets plays on FM radio, nightclubs, stadiums, MTV, etc, so they really need to love the music. There's no incentive to be fake so it's more likely that what you're hearing is the artist's true vision.

I am not saying that rap artists don't need to work hard to get noticed and become popular, just that they can potentially get more than a metal artist who puts in the same effort.

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Samoroth
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:59 pm
Posts: 342
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:13 pm 
 

I like quite a lot hip hop, but none of that auto-tuned mumbly crap that everyone is into these days. I like the oldschool stuff, like Big L, Wu-Tang, Gravediggaz, Rakim, Masta Ace and and newer stuff with the spirit of the oldschool 90s stuff like Doppelgangaz and Action Bronson.

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Red_Death
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:51 pm
Posts: 1035
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:45 am 
 

funeralravens wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
Yeah nothing but cursing and misogyny for sure

I agree that this is not too bad. There's definitely room for deep stuff in this genre, but it seems to me stuff like this is in the minority, because most of the rap music I hear on TV/at public venues is a far cry from this.
What would you think of metal if going by this procedure?

I don't recall the artists I checked out a while ago when I asked for some recommendations, but in general the instrumental sparseness of hip hop doesn't suit my tastes well, although I've been listening to some "lo-fi" instrumental stuff lately on some YT playlists, Ill-Advised Records ones mostly (is it a part of hip hop? dunno), it's quite cool and nice. It sounded like what people may call hip hop beats (?) coupled with some ambient stuff.

Anyhow, I never had really unpleasant experiences with non-metal stuff as I steered clear of what I thought would annoy me. The worst experiences were with some classic rock that...didn't really do anything for me (some Rolling Stones and Beatles, though I should probably give Sgt. Pepper a focused listen), fading into "background muzak" after some time.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35177
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:02 pm 
 

Regarding the idea that hip hop might more commonly be bad because it's easier to make a song than it is to make a metal song, well maybe. But focusing on that doesn't really negate a whole genre of course as we all can agree. I guess I can see an argument that metal is harder to make just by virtue of needing all the instruments (which aren't usually electronic/synthesized with a lot of it). But good music's good music.

Hip hop is also just more at the front of the pop vanguard for a long time now. Metal is a niche with a built in fanbase and has been set in stone for longer. It's not necessarily the pop culture thing so it won't get as commercially recognized.

I'm playing the only Tribe Called Quest album I have now, Midnight Marauders. I forgot how fucking good this was.

edit... nothing wrong with sampling. Boring old man shit mentality to bash that. It's just another tool in a toolkit.
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The Bard with Bright Eyes
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:48 am
Posts: 94
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:17 pm 
 

ThrashTilDeath530 wrote:
When you say things like you can't stand all the profanity and gangsta shit in hip hop, but then go on to say that you really like the part in Dismember's Skin Her Alive where he says SKIN HER FUCKING ALIVE, I have to ask, do you hear yourself?


*sigh* I already addressed this point.

HeavenDuff wrote:
The Bard with Bright Eyes wrote:
a guy who said that, despite being a metalhead, there is more good hip hop than metal.


Regardless of how much I like hip-hop, and there are some great albums for sure, I can't imagine ever agreeing with this. There is much more great metal then there is great hip-hop. If you want to listen to hip-hop, you have to dig through a pile of mediocre junk before finding anything good. Hip-hop as a genre also evolves so extremely slowly because so many artists are just content with copying whoever is great and innovative at the moment.

In general, I have a much better time discovering new metal as there is so much quality stuff coming out all the time.


This. It's not that the dude said that there's more good hip hop than metal what struck my nerve (each to their own, I guess), it's that he said that despite being a metalhead, which I interpreted as an insult to metal.
Now, of course, hip hop can sounds pretty cool musically (Ice Cube's No Vaseline, for example), and I can definitely see how people can enjoy the old school stuff (NWA, Tupac, Biggie Smalls, Snoop Dogg, Wu Tang Clan, Cypress Hill etc), even if it rubs me personally the wrong way. But everything after that (Eminem, 50cent, JayZ, Kendrick, Drake, Kanye, Souljaboy etc) completely eludes me.

HeavenDuff wrote:
I'm not saying I'm some kind of genius for knowing/liking these artists, as they are fairly well-known, but hip-hop being such a big part of the mainstream, there is a culture surrounding it that I really have a hard time connecting with. Popularity, ego, "charts", capitalist shit, and the fact that a sizeable part of hip-hop's audience is a bunch of normies without any sense of artistry in what they are looking for in the "entertainment" they "consume".


You said it all for me. Wonderful. And I should also add: sampling. The mere notion of buying music, remixing the recording of that exact same piece of music (with often trivial changes to the song or no changes at all) and calling it your own composition disgusts me with every fiber of my being, irrelevant of the fact if the final result sounds good or not. It's an utter insult to everyone who is learning to play an instrument, studying music theory and actually composing original music. Case in point, as a huge Blind Guardian fan, I was on the verge of vomiting when I heard Outerspace's Lost Battles.
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~Guest 1452000
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:31 pm 
 

^ Listen to Kanye's 808s and Heartbreak album, I doubt you'll think he's bad after hearing it :lol:

Man, Kanye had a great run of albums going for a while:

College Dropout 8/10
Late Registration 9/10
Graduation 8.5/10
808s and Heartbreak 11/10
Dark Fantasy 10/10

Absolute legend.

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BloodMoonRising
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:34 pm 
 

Art is about expression, and I can totally understand why Kendrick Lamar doesn't give a shit about shredding. If sampling is your thing and gets you there, then sample stuff, don't learn to play the piano. It's as simple as that.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:57 pm 
 

The Bard with Bright Eyes wrote:
ThrashTilDeath530 wrote:
And I should also add: sampling. The mere notion of buying music, remixing the recording of that exact same piece of music (with often trivial changes to the song or no changes at all) and calling it your own composition disgusts me with every fiber of my being, irrelevant of the fact if the final result sounds good or not. It's an utter insult to everyone who is learning to play an instrument, studying music theory and actually composing original music.


It's like any other art form, done at its most simple and unimaginative, it's completely bland or just regurgitating the work of others. But at the upper end there can be some brilliant stuff. This isn't a hip-hop track, but I always thought this was a fascinating look at how much effort can go into the process. Here's someone recreating a song that is heavily based on samples, reverse-engineering it. It would have been even more difficult to execute in the mid-90s when the song was originally released. I've put the original after it for comparison, might even be worth listening to first if you haven't heard it.

Spoiler: show



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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:22 pm 
 

Spiral Architect wrote:
^ Listen to Kanye's 808s and Heartbreak album, I doubt you'll think he's bad after hearing it :lol:

Man, Kanye had a great run of albums going for a while:

College Dropout 8/10
Late Registration 9/10
Graduation 8.5/10
808s and Heartbreak 11/10
Dark Fantasy 10/10

Absolute legend.


808s and Heartbreak was the end of Kanye for me. I absolutely LOVE some of his songs from prior albums, but that album was a turd imo and I’ll never understand why people think My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is some kind of masterpiece.

Everything he puts out now is trash compared to those first albums.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:26 pm 
 

Yeezus is easily my favorite I've heard from him. Don't really like much after that though.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:41 pm 
 

I prefer his older songs too but I just call it like I see it. 808s isn't even a rap album and it's still one of my favorite rap albums :lol: It's just too good. And MBDTF is fucking ridiculous; insane production, every song is a banger, every feature kills it, Kanye kills it... I see it as a culmination of his career. That was his last album for me.

I remember when Yeezus leaked, I knew it was over. He didn't give a fuck about making music anymore. Still a solid album but it's not the same at all.

Edit: I forgot about the Watch the Throne album with Jay-Z, that was the point I started suspecting he was checked out, Yeezus just confirmed it.

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The Bard with Bright Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:53 am 
 

Spiral Architect wrote:
^ Listen to Kanye's 808s and Heartbreak album, I doubt you'll think he's bad after hearing it :lol:

Man, Kanye had a great run of albums going for a while:

College Dropout 8/10
Late Registration 9/10
Graduation 8.5/10
808s and Heartbreak 11/10
Dark Fantasy 10/10

Absolute legend.


Tried 808's and Heartbreak, didn't like it. I have zero tolerance for autotuned vocals. Zero. The music itself is okay I guess, though definitely not to my taste. I find it to be too poor (as in, too scarce and underwhelming) and leaves me with little to nothing to chew on, so to speak. Oh well, at least it's better than the stuff people my age listen to where I live. Don't open if you don't want PTSD. And if you do open it, be thankful to whatever deity you believe in that you don't understand the lyrics.
Spoiler: show


BloodMoonRising wrote:
Art is about expression, and I can totally understand why Kendrick Lamar doesn't give a shit about shredding. If sampling is your thing and gets you there, then sample stuff, don't learn to play the piano. It's as simple as that.


You completely missed the point. It's not about skill, it's about creativity, inspiration and integrity, neither of which are to be found in lazily regurgitating an already existing composition.

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
The Bard with Bright Eyes wrote:
And I should also add: sampling. The mere notion of buying music, remixing the recording of that exact same piece of music (with often trivial changes to the song or no changes at all) and calling it your own composition disgusts me with every fiber of my being, irrelevant of the fact if the final result sounds good or not. It's an utter insult to everyone who is learning to play an instrument, studying music theory and actually composing original music.


It's like any other art form, done at its most simple and unimaginative, it's completely bland or just regurgitating the work of others. But at the upper end there can be some brilliant stuff. This isn't a hip-hop track, but I always thought this was a fascinating look at how much effort can go into the process. Here's someone recreating a song that is heavily based on samples, reverse-engineering it. It would have been even more difficult to execute in the mid-90s when the song was originally released. I've put the original after it for comparison, might even be worth listening to first if you haven't heard it.

Spoiler: show




That there is one of the two only scenarios where I find sampling to be acceptable: when it's edited to the point of the original sample being barely recognizable (the other scenario being when the sample is a very minor part of the song, like a 10 second intro or something). And since this is electronic music (and samples can't just be created out of thin air), I'm even more willing to accept it. But lazily looping the first 30 seconds of the song or so (like the aforementioned Lost Battles) for the entirely of the song deserves no respect.

But again, the business part of the whole thing is what (also) disgusts me. There's no count as to how many bands used the galloping "tan tananananan" riff of Black Sabbath's Children of the Grave, and yet, did Black Sabbath ever sue anyone who used it without their permission? Fuck no. They all have their own variation of that riff and have played it themselves, on their own instruments, with their own gear etc, to create a unique composition (where that one riff is just one piece of the composition, and not the entirety of it). That's art and inspiration.
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BloodMoonRising
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Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:49 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:17 am 
 

The Bard with Bright Eyes wrote:
BloodMoonRising wrote:
Art is about expression, and I can totally understand why Kendrick Lamar doesn't give a shit about shredding. If sampling is your thing and gets you there, then sample stuff, don't learn to play the piano. It's as simple as that.


You completely missed the point. It's not about skill, it's about creativity, inspiration and integrity, neither of which are to be found in lazily regurgitating an already existing composition.


The point: sampling is fair game when your creativity is laser focused on writing lyrics. Hell, it's fair game period.


Last edited by BloodMoonRising on Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Korpgud
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:37 am 
 

The Bard with Bright Eyes wrote:
BloodMoonRising wrote:
Art is about expression, and I can totally understand why Kendrick Lamar doesn't give a shit about shredding. If sampling is your thing and gets you there, then sample stuff, don't learn to play the piano. It's as simple as that.


You completely missed the point. It's not about skill, it's about creativity, inspiration and integrity, neither of which are to be found in lazily regurgitating an already existing composition.


It really just sounds like you don't like or are willing to try to understand Hip Hop. It's okay not to like it, but to dismiss sampling as "lazily regurgitated" is kinda ignorant.

Sampling is one of the foundations of hip hop, which emerged in the 1980s.[27] Hip hop sampling has been likened to the origins of blues and rock, which were created by repurposing existing music.[15] The Guardian journalist David McNamee wrote that "two record decks and your dad's old funk collection was once the working-class black answer to punk".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(music)#Hip_hop


It is about skill, it is about creativity and inspiration. A skilled producer will be better at choosing / editing / working with samples than an unskilled one.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:13 am 
 

I mean half the time I listen to hip hop, I barely even notice when a sample happens... sometimes it's really overt with a chorus hook or something thrown in, but a lot of the time it's like a melody just underneath the rapping and drums and whatnot. If you don't think that kind of thing can be creative then I dunno what to tell you. Just another thing some artists do. It's not an "insult" to anything.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:02 pm 
 

It often depends upon how familiar with are with the songs that have been sampled. I've heard hip-hop tracks and then later heard the soul tune they're based on, and sometimes thought it was a creative usage of it, and other times it felt really derivative, like they just rapped over the original and called it a day. The quality is all over the map, like any genre.

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ZenoMarx
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:24 pm 
 

If you want to listen to a masterpiece and master study in sampling, go to Beastie Boy's Paul's Boutique.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:07 pm 
 

The arguments against sampling, lyrics, autotune, culture, etc are just too vague and empty for me. It all adds up to the equivalent of "metal is just noise."

I mean, like whatever you like, but it doesn't make sense to judge an entire genre of music with such a critical eye if you aren't even interested in learning about it.

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The Bard with Bright Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:15 pm 
 

BloodMoonRising wrote:
The Bard with Bright Eyes wrote:
BloodMoonRising wrote:
Art is about expression, and I can totally understand why Kendrick Lamar doesn't give a shit about shredding. If sampling is your thing and gets you there, then sample stuff, don't learn to play the piano. It's as simple as that.


You completely missed the point. It's not about skill, it's about creativity, inspiration and integrity, neither of which are to be found in lazily regurgitating an already existing composition.


The point: sampling is fair game when your creativity is laser focused on writing lyrics.


From my review of Serpents of the Light:
Quote:
I hate the "The lyrics and message are more important than the music" idea that some "musicians" have. If you really think so, make a fucking podcast or something and don't pollute the world of music with your worthless trash.


Korpgud wrote:
The Bard with Bright Eyes wrote:
BloodMoonRising wrote:
Art is about expression, and I can totally understand why Kendrick Lamar doesn't give a shit about shredding. If sampling is your thing and gets you there, then sample stuff, don't learn to play the piano. It's as simple as that.


You completely missed the point. It's not about skill, it's about creativity, inspiration and integrity, neither of which are to be found in lazily regurgitating an already existing composition.


It really just sounds like you don't like or are willing to try to understand Hip Hop. It's okay not to like it, but to dismiss sampling as "lazily regurgitated" is kinda ignorant.

Sampling is one of the foundations of hip hop, which emerged in the 1980s.[27] Hip hop sampling has been likened to the origins of blues and rock, which were created by repurposing existing music.[15] The Guardian journalist David McNamee wrote that "two record decks and your dad's old funk collection was once the working-class black answer to punk".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(music)#Hip_hop


It is about skill, it is about creativity and inspiration. A skilled producer will be better at choosing / editing / working with samples than an unskilled one.


Alright, I will admit there are some examples where sampling is put into a very good use, as LithoJazzoSphere demonstrated (and an album titled A Journey into Abstract Hip-Hop by Gasoline popped up on my YT feed this noon and I find it to be very interesting and captivating. It's sampled to the teeth, but the general atmosphere is trippy enough to keep me pulled in (there's the "why don't you show your face you fucking coward" sample from Scream 2 in the song Diesel Ride that put a huge smile on my face), and I'd easily rank it above any classic by NWA, Tupac or whomever). Still, that doesn't excuse the (much more common, as far as I know) case of buying a tune and lazily looping it. Example: Tupac's Changes. Back when I was a hip hop fan, this used to be one of my favorite songs. However, when I heard the original sample (Bruce Hornsby's The Way It Is), Changes became impossible to listen to, as I only kept thinking: "This is The Way It Is, just rearranged".

Empyreal wrote:
It's not an "insult" to anything.


The insulting part is when a guy buys a licence for a song, loops is and then calls it his own composition. The "calls it his own composition" part is insulting, specifically. Imagine taking a painting of Mona Lisa, drawing whatever on the painting with a marker and then calling it your own painting.

Spiral Architect wrote:
The arguments against sampling, lyrics, autotune, culture, etc are just too vague and empty for me.


Sampling: explained. Lyrics: every genre has good and bad lyrics, but when a genre is vocally driven (pop, hip hop etc), the bad lyrics are a greater problem than on an instrumentally driven genre (metal, jazz, classical etc) as, since the focus is on the vocals, the focus is automatically on the lyrics, as well. Autotune: subjectively, whatever it is that the computer does to the human voice completely grates my nerves and eardrums, regardless of whose voice is in question. The greater degree of autotuning, the more it irritates me. Not even metal vocalists are immune to this (later-era John Cyriis and David DeFeis). Objectively, using programs and effects to compensate for one's lack of vocal skills is scummy and contemptible, simple as that. Culture I find irrelevant in terms of judging music. I will say, however, that I find contemptible any musician who puts a greater emphasis on their image and reputation than on the music they write, regardless of the genre they specify in, and also that putting image above the music impairs the enjoyability/quality/worth of the music.
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