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Zurbum
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:42 am
Posts: 39
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:24 pm 
 

I actually am a fan of democracy. I could reply to this that if you root for Ukraine you root for coups staged by NATO/USA there and elsewhere so you're not a fan of democracy yourself

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10347
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:12 pm 
 

Yeah, piss off, troll.
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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:04 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Yeah, piss off, troll.
(salute)
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:29 am 
 

Just wanted to post the Speech by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Independence Day of Ukraine here in this thread for the history:

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/pr ... ya-n-77265

Spoiler: show
I should have posted the video yesterday, but yesterday the Russian army and its leaders decided to "congratulate" the people of Ukraine in Russia's usual perverted and violent way and there were a lot of air raid alerts in Ukraine, and there were also victims of rocket attacks among Ukrainian citizens (including children), so I wasn't in the mood and was not able to post here.

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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 542
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:48 pm 
 

I heard that Russians are contacting their real estate agent to get first dibs on property in Ukraine. I don't know exactly why, considering all the ugliness already in motion, but that really hit me.

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pyratebastard
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:05 pm
Posts: 229
Location: Eastern Mojave Desert
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:17 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
I heard that Russians are contacting their real estate agent to get first dibs on property in Ukraine. I don't know exactly why, considering all the ugliness already in motion, but that really hit me.


Information like that keeps us from our comfortable beliefs that it is simply the evil ones in power who are at fault for the horrors of the world. It's hard to stay positive when you know that your own neighbors may one day actively try to profit from your downfall.
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JCP524
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:45 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
I heard that Russians are contacting their real estate agent to get first dibs on property in Ukraine. I don't know exactly why, considering all the ugliness already in motion, but that really hit me.


Also, a lot of Ukrainian citizens are Russian sympathizers/collaborators.

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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:14 pm 
 

JCP524 wrote:
A lot of Ukrainian citizens are Russian sympathizers/collaborators.


Bullshit statement of the day.
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:39 am 
 

Miikja wrote:
JCP524 wrote:
A lot of Ukrainian citizens are Russian sympathizers/collaborators.


Bullshit statement of the day.


Miikja, thanks for your help here.
The previous post from the user JCP524 in this thread was considered as ''trolling'' so I didn't know if it was even necessary to reply to this post.
This ''Informational internet war in the digital age'' is a strange and not fully understood thing of this war for me - at first look, it seems that it does not make any sense to waste time and effort on these Internet "anti-disinformation/fight againts Russian propaganda" and "anti-trolling'' actions and that it cannot give any significant effect/change anything, and that only active actions in real offline life are important and have an actual sense and power, and give an actual results. ... And then you find out that there is something like this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFO_(group) which, at first, looks pointless and powerless, and seems to be something that can not be taken seriously, but it seems it can be effective and is really necessary. (It still remains strange and something that's hard to take really and seriously for me personally, though).
It's sad that this topic has some posts that are much more like meaningless and really bad trolling and that do not provide actual information..

Ok, in this particular situation, I can post something more rational and actually informative.
According to current official statistics (since February 24), there are 2091 cases of collaborationism (https://warcrimes.gov.ua/en/all-crimes.html)
It's sad and disgusting (and had (and continues to have) many negative consequences) that there are such things in Ukraine, but I don't know how much this number (objectively) fits into the "a lot" criterion - given the fact that Russia puts so much time, effort and money into the propaganda, spreading its narratives in Ukraine/the world in general and also bribing local officials/politicians (and as for the latter, there are suspicions/theories that it works not only in Ukraine but also in a few other European countries and even in some international organizations).

As for the support of the Russia's actions (and Russia in general) by the population of Ukraine in general, this is of course a huge exaggeration and really looks like another very bad trolling in this thread - even if you put aside emotions that this is an inadequate comment in this situation in general (especially after all those war crimes and violence of the Ukrainian people done by the Russian occupiers) and talk more about facts, you can find statistics on Internet from a few social surveys, which show that the attitude and support of Ukrainians towards Russia and Russians has decreased much. An example - https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=r ... 112&page=1
There was also a lot of support from Ukrainians for the idea of ​​​​introducing a visa regime with Russia, for example - https://petition.president.gov.ua/petition/134744
I can say on a personal note that there is no one from the people whom I personally know who (would) support Russia in this war (but I don’t know how much this can be taken into account as representativeness, because I and the people I know live either in the western or in the central regions of Ukraine/or in Kyiv, and there wasn't any significant support of Russia there even before the start of the full-scale war).

It is also worth mentioning that there is such a thing as the specificity of a psychology of society in post-colonial countries and the difficulties of getting rid of it, and also when it comes to the occupied territories (especially those who were occupied by brutal force - such as Mariupol, followed by aggressive propaganda and limitation of sources for a possibility of receiving information from the "outside world") - about the survival instinct (not only for your own, but it can be also for the safety and salvation of your children/loved ones), as well as about such a condition as the Stockholm syndrome. So even if there is some support there, this does not mean that it can be always 100% rational/voluntarily and a behavior that is usual and normal when compared with a behavior in a safe situation/course of events in your 'normal' everyday life.


---

As for the current news in Ukraine, there were a lot of very unsettling news about the actions of Russian occupiers at Zaporizhia Nuclear Power Plant, but there (finally) are representatives of the IAEA at the station, so hope for the best ...

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Aldrahn333
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:28 pm
Posts: 343
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:42 am 
 

Not that I'm a fan of, but I think the West should return to the nuclear energy. It is safe and secure and it can starve for cash the regime of Kremlin thugs, since that oil and gas are mostly what generate money for them. In the perspective, no more reliance on authoritarian regimes (China included). And Ukraine should be supplied until help is needed.

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 5416
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:11 pm 
 

there were more collaborators with russia pre the invasion and especially pre 2014 than there is now. Even a lot of Russians living in Ukraine are not pro Putin.

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nekuomanteia
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:37 pm
Posts: 601
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:05 pm 
 

(idiotic trolling removed)


Last edited by Morrigan on Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Member banned for trolling this thread, and blatant racism in another thread

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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:04 am 
 

After more than six months of "a special military operation" with all that internal Russian propaganda where "everything is going according to a plan" and "there are no losses among the Russian military/or they are minimal/acceptable" (and at the same time with active covert mobilization), the Russian leadership cynically decided to officially announce a partial mobilization (which concerns military reserve forces) in Russia...

Not that people in Ukraine are too shocked/terrified by these news - everyone knew that there was always a risk of it, but it can definitely make the situation on the front more difficult for our defenders in the future, and there is also a risk that it will make the war much longer in time, and with more deaths (both military and civilian people).
There has also been news about Russia's planning of those illegal pseudo-referendums in the occupied territories, - which has already been criticized by NATO leaders, the USA and also by several European countries - which is good and important in itself plus it is always a consolation (and gives a hope) for people in Ukraine to see such support, but one of the problems is that one of the reasons/consequences of these referendums may be that Russian leaders and military will carry out (or, as in the case of the so-called LPR and DPR, will continue to carry out even more intensively) forced mobilization of the Ukrainian citizens there, and this may also increase the repressions of Ukrainian citizens by Russian occupiers during + after these referendums on those territories. We have already heard and seen the news about a large number of the graves/mass graves of Ukrainian residents and about exhumed bodies with their hands tied and with traces of torture in the deoccupied Kyiv region (from cities like Bucha) earlier, and there was also similar horrible and tragic news from the deoccupied city Izium of the Kharkiv region lately, and we are afraid that it's also happening in the Kherson and Zaporizhia regions these days and that there were and continue to be many violent deaths and tortures of Ukrainian people by Russian occupiers there.
And since it seems that people in Russia are not able to do and significantly change anything in this situation with covert/partial mobilization, plus it seems the mobilization-related laws have been changed/added by the Russian government - that make things much harder for those people in Russia who want to avoid this mobilization/participation in hostilities - https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/09/20/7368257/ (plus there seems to continue to be some significant pro-war support from some people in Russia), it seems that the main solution and hope is for continued support from the USA (and that the Lend-Lease will work from October) and for continued support from many European countries (there were also (again) hints by the Russian leadership on a possibility of use of nuclear weapons by Russia, so I don't know...).

Aldrahn333 wrote:
Not that I'm a fan of, but I think the West should return to the nuclear energy. It is safe and secure and it can starve for cash the regime of Kremlin thugs, since that oil and gas are mostly what generate money for them. In the perspective, no more reliance on authoritarian regimes (China included). And Ukraine should be supplied until help is needed.

I read about it, and it looks like newer and more modern nuclear power plants are much safer than earlier versions of them (such as the Chernobyl nuclear power plant) in general, but that's only if your neighbor is not Russia - that seems to have decided to arrange and to commit acts of nuclear terrorism on the territory of Ukraine. There was news recently about a shell hit very close to the reactors of another Ukrainian nuclear power plant, and this is very unsettling - https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine ... kyiv-says/

But yes, in general, it looks like use of nuclear energy might provide a solution to at least some of those problems with energy resources.

The situation with Europe's dependence on Russian gas/oil is definitely very difficult to solve, and it complicates things a lot.
There has been news that Germany (which is very dependent on Russian gas supplies and which seems to have created much more gas-oriented energy/heating system and industry than other European countries) is trying to do alternative supplies with some Asian countries (like Qatar and the UAE).
Plus, as further alternatives, there has also been news about planning of more use of wind power for generating electricity - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ify%20wall, which is safer not only for people but also for environment.

People in Ukraine have also been warned that this (and also next) heating season will be very difficult in itself, and also because Russia continues to do rocket attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure (and on gas lines, heating lines and CHPs, plus TPPs in particular), - so we are preparing for everything (including a sudden shutdown of heat supply).

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Miikja
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:47 pm 
 

Roger Waters once again has no idea what he's talking about:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/roger-waters-ukrainian-kill-list-1234604081/
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Prigione Eterna
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
Posts: 156
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:44 pm 
 

Miikja wrote:


Perhaps he goes a little too far and takes for good too much of the opposite side's propaganda.
But personally, I understand where he's coming from. It's the framing of the whole thing in the media that any thinking person should find suffocating.
In a piece like that, you already have a bad guy from the start. If you criticize Israel, you're anti-semitic; if you support negotiations with Russia, it's appeasement; we are pro-democracy and the others are not, so we have the right to intervene anywhere we please.
Ignoring the glaring responsibilities of the West in provoking the war in such a blind, narrow-minded, short-sighted way is unnerving and farcical.
So I don't completely agree with him, but it's all very frustrating and hypocritical.

On second thought, I hope this particular piece doesn't reflect too faithfully the mindset of the people who consume the media.
Framing the war as purely a matter of "human rights" is especially misguided. Joining NATO isn't a human right. On the other hand, even if this was only about human rights, ignoring that the world order is based on nuclear deterrence and advocating for the fight to go on no matter the consequences for the rest of world is foolish all the same. It's like justifying a suicide bomber because he's fighting for a right cause.
If that's the point we're at, it's very worrying. But I hope there are more sensible opinions around.
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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:29 pm 
 

Prigione Eterna wrote:
Miikja wrote:

If you support negotiations with Russia, it's appeasement.


Negotiations...

Image

Negotiations?

Really?
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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 542
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:37 pm 
 

Prigione Eterna wrote:
Miikja wrote:


Perhaps he goes a little too far and takes for good too much of the opposite side's propaganda.
But personally, I understand where he's coming from. It's the framing of the whole thing in the media that any thinking person should find suffocating.
In a piece like that, you already have a bad guy from the start. If you criticize Israel, you're anti-semitic; if you support negotiations with Russia, it's appeasement; we are pro-democracy and the others are not, so we have the right to intervene anywhere we please.
Ignoring the glaring responsibilities of the West in provoking the war in such a blind, narrow-minded, short-sighted way is unnerving and farcical.
So I don't completely agree with him, but it's all very frustrating and hypocritical.

On second thought, I hope this particular piece doesn't reflect too faithfully the mindset of the people who consume the media.
Framing the war as purely a matter of "human rights" is especially misguided. Joining NATO isn't a human right. On the other hand, even if this was only about human rights, ignoring that the world order is based on nuclear deterrence and advocating for the fight to go on no matter the consequences for the rest of world is foolish all the same. It's like justifying a suicide bomber because he's fighting for a right cause.
If that's the point we're at, it's very worrying. But I hope there are more sensible opinions around.


what in the flying fuck are you talking about?

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Prigione Eterna
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
Posts: 156
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:51 pm 
 

Miikja wrote:
Negotiations...

Image

Negotiations?

Really?


Please, I'm aware it's not pretty, but I mean negotiations to avoid nuclear war.
If it comes to that, then there's no peace nor freedom for anyone anymore. Only death.
It's not the cause I disagree with, it's the method.
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:03 am 
 

Miikja, ZenoMarx, many thanks, again, for your help in this thread.

Prigione Eterna wrote:
Miikja wrote:
Negotiations...

Spoiler: show
Image


Negotiations?

Really?


Please, I'm aware it's not pretty, but I mean negotiations to avoid nuclear war.
If it comes to that, then there's no peace nor freedom for anyone anymore. Only death.
It's not the cause I disagree with, it's the method.

Just wanted to clarify that you also had to understand that this phrase can be perceived by Ukrainian people in a similar way as "I'm not a racist, but..." phrase is perceived by people of a non-white race..
Even if your message does not look so crude, the essence in this particular situation remains very similar tbh.

A similar approach/point of view is not unexpected/shocked for Ukrainian people anymore, and it isn't new for this thread in particular, there was a similar approach to this war earlier in this thread:

darkeningday wrote:
We're goading Russia into declaring war on Ukraine, and with many of these sanctions directly juicing Russia's war chest with the soaring gas prices and the Ruble (and the Yuan) performing better than any other currency in the world, the cost of burning an entire nation and murdering its innocent population is beginning to fade. To borrow from Thomas Friedman, this is Putin's atrocity but we're doing everything in our power to turn it from a serious war crime into the greatest humanitarian disaster since WWII..

And yes, we also know that there is a risk that this will happen in real life.

You also need to understand that people in Ukraine do not support the negotiations with Russia not because Ukrainians are "suicidal" (this is a strange comparison to be honest, I think Ukrainians have shown very clearly that they appreciate life - but a free life, not a slavery, torture and a slow death under the Russian occupation), but because, after all these events and mass acts of the genocide of Ukrainian people by Russian occupiers during this war, we do not trust Russia at all anymore, and there are no guarantees that Russia will stop the occupation of Ukraine and will not continue to occupy some other territories of Ukraine in the future either, - that's why there is this decision - https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/10/4/7370293/

As for the situation with a possible escalation by using of nuclear weapons by Russia, one of the things that I personally hope is that the USA is able to warn and frighten the Russian leadership with threats that are related to personal lives of the Russian leadership - i.e. not in a way that some city / region in Russia can be destroyed by a retaliatory strike, but personally - the Russian leadership/their relatives will be killed and that it's one of the ways that may prevent a use of nuclear weapons (at least, strategic ones) by the Russian leadership+military.
The Russian leadership have been creating a cult of war, violence and death in Russia for years (Just read about the process of mobilisation of people in Russia in this war, for example. I recently saw this photo in the context of a discussion about the mobilization in Russia and I think that it is very symbolic and emotional for this situation, and it is able to convey the essence of current/future state of things, espesially in depressive regions of Russia - https://t.me/OstanniyCapitalist/17818 ), but it doesn't look like the Russian leadership themselves are ready to die (with all that obsession with self-security/bunker lifestyle and the like, they look much more like those ones who have a strong fear of death). Instead, it seems they just hope that they will be able to scare the world with threats of possible use of nuclear weapons to such an extent that the world will decide to sacrifice Ukraine and its inhabitants+territory.

---
Ok, now I would like to add something more informative for people from Russia:
There is information for the Russian soldiers who do not want to participate in hostilities on the territory of Ukraine and who want to surrender to the Ukrainian military - https://dovidka.info/ru/kak-soldatu-rf-sdatsya-v-plen/

Please, distribute this information, especially if you have relatives/friends/acquaintances from Russia who do not want to carry out criminal military orders of the Russian military on the territory of Ukraine and who want to survive in this war.

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Prigione Eterna
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
Posts: 156
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:49 am 
 

Let's see if I can elaborate.
I think, at this point, Ukrainians can only do so much to avoid nuclear escalation.
If they are willing to risk their country being destroyed, well, at least in principle, it's their country and their lives that are at stake.
But what I find frustrating is that in the West, especially the US, talking of negotiations is taboo because it implies recognizing that it's not anybody's right to expand NATO indefinitely no matter what the consequences.
Joining a military organization has geopolitical implications that can't be ignored. It's such an elementary point that it can only be misunderstood by constantly subjecting people to mind-numbing propaganda.
Ukrainians are willing to accept any help, even if it means risking direct confrontation between nuclear powers, and as I said you can blame them only so much for it.
But the Western countries should stop pretending they don't have a role in all this and that this is only about human rights and the struggle for democracy etc. etc.

All I think that could be said to Ukrainians is to think carefully about the consequences of the course of action they choose to take, especially when it comes to international diplomacy. Listening to the hardliners may mean that tomorrow there could be no country left to defend.
Speaking of racism, people like King understood that the method you choose implies certain consequences, and they chose peaceful resistance rather than open war.
Of course, it's hard to find a perfect comparison, but I hope the point comes across.
I repeat, it's not the cause, it's the methods I'm talking about.
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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 269
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:13 pm 
 

The 'brief history' I posted above shows rather clearly that Russia has always been hostile toward Ukraine (and its other neighbours, I should add) and that any given pretext (like the NATO expansion myth which has already been debunked to death) just serves as an excuse for Putin to do what he's always had in mind: annexation of Ukrainian land. The reason negotiations are taboo is not because the 'West' has to recognise some kind of inconvenient truth but simply the fact that, as Sjal has stated before me, Putin absolutely cannot be trusted to honour any kind of agreement. Everything has been a lie with Russia and Ukraine in particular has no reason to trust them ever again.
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Prigione Eterna
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Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:51 pm 
 

I'd rather not go into details about which global superpower is the most trustworthy and respectful of human rights, but I'd say that Russia is in good company.
Regardless of that, it doesn't matter what we think. The Russian government thinks Ukraine joining NATO is an existential threat and proceeding along that road is guaranteed to take NATO and Russia to direct confrontation, which could mean nuclear war.
Unfortunately, until the world order is no longer based on the nuclear threat, any tyrant or lunatic which possesses the nuclear weapon must be handled with care.
Every diplomatic and political decision that doesn't take this simple fact into consideration is foolish and reckless.
Sure, there's no guarantee such a concession or even more will lead anywhere, but given the stakes, a diplomatic route based on the neutrality of Ukraine must never be off the table.
Otherwise, if we're willing to gamble with our lives, we can assume we know enough not to trust the Russians and hope that Putin is either bluffing or considerate enough not to resort to nuclear weapons. But that's what it is: a risky bet.
Is it better to be remembered by history as the one who left the door open until the very last moment, or as the one who pulled the trigger first?
Assuming there will be somebody to remember history, to borrow somebody else's words.
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Miikja
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:34 pm 
 

Based on the historic list of atrocities Russia has caused in Ukraine (and, again, its other neighbouring countries), is it any surprise that they would seek protection in a military partnership? It's almost as if Russia caused this problem for themselves.

Even so, the West HAS handled Putin with care. Regard the Wandel durch Handel approach that seemed so hopeful in establishing post Cold War relations with Russia. We were naïve. Ukraine said it would remain neutral, there was no current talk about them joining NATO. But it didn't matter, Russia invaded anyway. Like I said, the NATO myth has been debunked to death, especially by Putin himself. He was going to invade Ukraine all along and all the talk in the world would not have made a difference. He promised the world he wouldn't, then went ahead and did anyway. All this bullshit NATO rhetoric, it's gotten so old so fast.
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