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~Guest 1452000
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:28 am
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:24 pm 
 

Yeah, there's very little good-faith discussion going on here. There's no willingness to understand history, learn about context, cultivate some newfound appreciation, nothing.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1300
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:27 pm 
 

We get it by now, dude. You don't like hip hop music. You've made your point, everyone else made theirs, no one's mind is getting changed.

While we're on the subject, though, I'll talk about another unpleasant experience I had with non metal music - hip hop-related, coincidentally. In high school, two friends of mine decided to start a rap group. I was brought on board because I was good with producing music and writing it. The idea was that I would do the instrumentation and the other guys would perform the voice parts and write the words. Well, some words were written, an instrumental track was made, and we tried to record some of the voice parts. And it became clear that neither of the other guys had much musical talent at all. One couldn't even find the beat, which is pretty crucial if you're going to be rapping. So I ended up performing on the finished song. Instrumentation, voice parts, everything. I thought it was a pretty unique sound that we had created (well, that I had created), and I would describe it as "industrial dubstep rap". It was released on SoundCloud and actually got a few hundred plays due to relentless promoting by my friends among their schoolmates. Then one of the guys ran away from home and the other got sent to a mental institution after a suicide attempt. So the project fizzled.

I came to resent the song, not just because of its quality but because I was the one doing everything, and the only contributions from the others were the words. I still have access to that SoundCloud page and release significantly calmer material there occasionally, but I haven't been able to share it with anyone because I'm afraid of the embarrassment of going back to that song or letting others hear it, because the words were written by a 14 year old and they contain use of the N word, which is another source for embarrassment. I don't want to delete the song, either, because it still has its fans (people still message me sometimes or let me know in other ways that they like the song).

I want a musical project that I'm involved in to go well for once. Seems like every band I've been in has not ended well. And I've never been in a metal band.
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The Bard with Bright Eyes
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:48 am
Posts: 94
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:42 am 
 

Hahahahaha, oh man. If it's any assurance, me and my classmates in elementary school were doing rap battles, freestyles etc all the time, and you can imagine how awful they've been. Whatever is it that you recorded, it's a masterpiece compared to what we were doing.

I'd gladly invite you into the band I'm forming, but I told you already of its current condition. And we're both in different parts of the world, so there's that.
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Lane
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 11:54 am
Posts: 712
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:14 am 
 

My friend and me cruised the city at nights back in the 1990s, with some gerat music playing (Kreator, Death Angel, Suicidal Tendencies, Van Halen, Loudness)...

Then he found a gf. The music switched from those gerats to Phil Collins and Sting and such "yuppie" music. Of course I did not stick with them a lot anymore. And of course the music was mot the only reason :P

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The Bard with Bright Eyes
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:48 am
Posts: 94
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:29 am 
 

Lane wrote:
My friend and me cruised the city at nights back in the 1990s, with some gerat music playing (Kreator, Death Angel, Suicidal Tendencies, Van Halen, Loudness)...

Then he found a gf. The music switched from those gerats to Phil Collins and Sting and such "yuppie" music. Of course I did not stick with them a lot anymore. And of course the music was mot the only reason :P


Hahaha, I bet you friend started behaving like this:


Doesn't matter if you don't understand the lyrics. The video tells you all you need to know.
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Now I understand that we aren’t more capable of read a book or listen a cd more than 30 min but came on really we deserve that,are we reduced to amoebas?

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elvenefrisian
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:38 am
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:53 am 
 

Quote:
I've heard others say the same, but even if I put aside my vehement loathing towards ghetto/hood/gangsta "culture", I still don't get it. Seriously, how many times do I have to hear "yo, bitch, [n-word], ass, muthafucka" and other shit over computerized drums (and admittedly solid funk)? I can't fathom why anyone outside of the ghetto or who didn't fry all their brain cells with drug abuse would want to come even close to this shit.


holy fuck is this the most racist review of to pimp a butterfly ive ever read.

Quote:
Because all these rappers from the ghetto seem to glorify gang violence, drug usage and dealing, promiscuity and other examples of degeneracy in the most disgustingly vulgar (and proud) way imaginable and, lame diss-tracks aside, seem to rap exclusively about that (as well as complaining about the police, which becomes hypocritical when the gang violence and drug dealing are also taken into consideration). I have no racial bias towards them (there are white people that are just as bad, if not even worse), but I simply cannot respect that. Of course, if there is hip hop with lyrics (as well as music) on the level of Atheist's Mother Man or Blind Guardian's Punishment Divine that you are aware of, I will be more than glad to hear it.


and your commentary got even worse somehow

glad some of you were pushing back against this but Jesus Christ.

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JCP524
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:50 am 
 

If we are being honest rap/hip hop/urban is probably superior to metal to most other forms of music due to the facts of technical difficulty & its groundedness in realism. It really is more true art rather than puerile entertainment.

Rap, etc....it essentially poetry regarding social issues and history.

I'm not a fan myself but to deny the artistry is absurd.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:01 am 
 

It's still very funny to me that he started all of that with "Kendrick Lamar's vocals can't touch a Virgin Steele album" as if that's at all a sensible comparison. This kind of shit is the stuff you will think back on in 5 years and cringe at.
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JCP524
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:55 am 
 

Lane wrote:
My friend and me cruised the city at nights back in the 1990s, with some gerat music playing (Kreator, Death Angel, Suicidal Tendencies, Van Halen, Loudness)...

Then he found a gf. The music switched from those gerats to Phil Collins and Sting and such "yuppie" music. Of course I did not stick with them a lot anymore. And of course the music was mot the only reason :P


Is he still with his girlfriend or did you keep in touch at all?

Phil Collins is legit good. Sting not so much.

Interesting side note-Phil Collins is a Alamo aficionado/enthusiast.

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~Guest 1452000
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Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:28 am
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:55 pm 
 

Phil Collins has a ton of haters but he's damn good. I can never take someone seriously when they say his music sucks.

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HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 3639
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:39 pm 
 

Genesis fans are some of the most insufferable people there is. When progressive rock bands had to change their sound drastically in the 80's, Genesis is one of the few bands who actually handled the transition well enough to remain relevant. Duke is legitimately a good album, and the succesful transition of Genesis from progressive rock to pop rock, was mostly due to Phil Collins. The work he has released since, both with Genesis and in his solo career has had some ups and downs, but he is not a bad musician by any means. I'm fairly certain that a good chunk of the hate for Collins comes from pety 70's Genesis fans who blame him for the huge stylistic change, and who still have not gotten over it 40 years after the fact.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:13 pm 
 

JCP524 wrote:
Phil Collins is legit good. Sting not so much.


He hasn't done much worthwhile in decades, but his work in The Police and his 80s/early 90s solo albums are all well-regarded if not outright acclaimed.

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Thy Shrine
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 688
Location: Golgotha
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:54 am 
 

Ehhh, I guess that's a pretty boring critique of rap music at large, but it's absolutely fucking true when its a shit rap song lets be fucking honest, it's like when Pestilence makes a great song about slicing your internal organs and your body oxidizing and being pounded into liquid shit, it fucking rules, then when some shit band makes a song its fucking trite and boring.

Can know the history of why crime and drug dealing exists in bad neighborhoods like that and still have a critique of a bad song that just regurgitates the same tired cliches because it's become commonplace.

I'm saying that as someone who actually enjoys rap so maybe I'm not saying the same thing, but you can't tell me rappers don't say a lotta goofy ass ridiculous fucking shit sometimes, get off the high horse, it gets boring
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Thy Shrine
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Location: Golgotha
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:57 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
JCP524 wrote:
Phil Collins is legit good. Sting not so much.


He hasn't done much worthwhile in decades, but his work in The Police and his 80s/early 90s solo albums are all well-regarded if not outright acclaimed.


That's because The police are one of the best classic rock bands ever
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PETERG
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:48 pm
Posts: 326
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:07 pm 
 

Quote:
About a week or two ago, I got in an argument in YouTube comments with a guy who said that


You are not doing your mind a good work man. I used to do it back in the day until I got sick of myself. I purged my Youtube account and started fresh. Have been more sane since then.
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PinkSatan
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:06 am
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:09 pm 
 

Good god. disclaimer at first: this account was made in 2020; just to say I didn't solely create this account to respond to this thread. I also don't know how to properly format a comment, so I'll just use quotation marks to respond to this absurdly sad post, sorry for that. Thirdly, I'm a metalhead and have been for years and it's my favorite genre of music, followed closely by hiphop.

"There is more good hip hop than metal. I asked him to name me a single hip hop album that is as profound as Unquestionable Presence, Awaken the Guardian or anything Blind Guardian had done in the 90's."

Quite funny. In fact, you can't name one metal album that had the same cultural impact as To Pimp a Butterfly. The guy who made the album literally got a Pulitzer Award. What is profound about hoblin goblin bullshit? Name one metal album as profound as Illmatic. As Wu-tang's debut. As The Low End Theory. As Tetsuo and Youth which is a masterclass in lyricism. As Earl Sweatshirt's Some Rap Songs. As Run the Jewels 2. As The Roots' Things Fall Apart. As Danny Brown's Atrocity Exhibition.
To my understanding, profoundness has everything to do with the message the song is trying to convey. Name one album that competes with any of the above. There are albums that personally I believe are just as hard-hitting, like Eyehategod's Take as Needed for Pain, but it doesn't at all compete with the sheer poetry of any albums I mentioned. But again, you think Power Metal is profound, so what the fuck do I know.

Another point I'd like to talk about is the sheer amount of shitty albums in metal music. Although I am mostly a fan of these genres, there's no denying that there's basically no shortage of absolutely abhorrent Goregrind, Pornogrind, Noisegrind, Cybergrind, Slam Metal music coming out every month. Don't act as if Glam Metal doesn't exist or as Death Metal isn't mostly repetitive garbage outside of some good bands. Same goes for thrash, thrash revival, black metal and so on. For every mumble-rapper, there's a goregrind band talking about raping young infants and eating their organs which, "yeah bruhh it's like horror movies haha!" does not really redeem the quality. An Ironically shitty album is still a shitty album. For every, in your words, "ghetto urban hoe bitches" rapper there exists a shittier Power Metal band LARPing as catboy fairies or some shit. You seem to under-estimate how shitty metal can get.

People like you are really a plague on the metalhead community, plain ignorance and obvious racism masked as an intolerance for the n-word.

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Thy Shrine
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 688
Location: Golgotha
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:51 pm 
 

Idk bro your soliloquy you just unleashed is about as boring as whatever the other guy said
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elvenefrisian
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:38 am
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:45 am 
 

Thy Shrine wrote:
Idk bro your soliloquy you just unleashed is about as boring as whatever the other guy said


personally im glad they said it because it is extremely alienating finding that level of insane racism on these forums. shit like that is just a reminder that much of the metal community is just a bunch of hostile angry white dudes who want everyone else out.

So when someone else points out that this kind of behavior is bullshit, I'm glad.

Just look at the main forum anytime a thread about Nazis pops up. Every fucking time it turns into an argument, and it's always the same fucking arguments.


There's a problem here, and maybe you didn't like the way this person phrased themselves but it needs to be said. And it needs to be said over and fucking over until shit actually changes.

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Thy Shrine
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Location: Golgotha
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:55 am 
 

Keep saying it all you want I suppose, be all eloquent but nobody's changing their mind based on whatever anyone says on here tbh.

And like I said before, why is the only counterargument to point out "oh bro, illmatic is fucking deep bro" as if fucking Blueface, lil yachty, and wiz Khalifa aren't just stereotypical fucking bullshit. I personally subscribe to the notion that rap is a very important form of music with a very important message SOMETIMES, that being the operative word here, because a lot of rap is stereotypical bullshit and you're fucking out of your mind if you wanna just completely ignore that so you can make some moral stand over some dipshit kid from Bosnia lol what a joke
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elvenefrisian
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:38 am
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:58 am 
 

dude I just want to be able to hang out in metal communities without people being racist as fuck.

you can even dislike TPAB and not be racist about it.

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Thy Shrine
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 688
Location: Golgotha
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:02 am 
 

Hey I didn't even say the initial train of comments wasn't ignorant or stupid, I just think he had a valid point in the sense of a lot of rap is fucking dumb, why is that so hard for people to admit.
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PinkSatan
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:06 am
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:20 am 
 

Pretty funny that you were only bothered by my response then, eh?
My counterpoint wasn't that illmatic is deep, in fact if you read the post i pointed out the sheer amount of shitty albums in metal music in direct response to his arguement that there's more good metal albums than there is hiphop, which is wrong.
Sure, there's a lot of bad hip-hop. In fact, there has been bad hip-hop coming out from the beginning, but he didn't ever talk about lil yaughty or whatever. He was directly attacking what he called "ghetto culture", making fun of AAVE, and black culture, calling it "gangsta hoe gangbang" bullshit.
But then again, the only people who would be against Anti-racism are metalheads, sadly. Only reminds me why I distanced myself from metalhead spaces.

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SolstafirAquilaria
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Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 332
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:51 pm 
 

PinkSatan wrote:
He was directly attacking what he called "ghetto culture", making fun of AAVE, and black culture, calling it "gangsta hoe gangbang" bullshit.

But then again, the only people who would be against Anti-racism are metalheads, sadly. Only reminds me why I distanced myself from metalhead spaces.

I had originally thought that this thread popped up overnight or something, but no, this thread filled with white supremacist bullshit has been here, and the users spewing said hateful and ignorant garbage still here, for over a month now. The lack of any sort of action sends a loud and clear message about what is actually acceptable here or not, and about the sort of culture that is actually allowed here. Just disgusting.

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Hexenmacht46290
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
Posts: 606
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:18 pm 
 

OP was the only one saying that. Everyone else was making fun of him, and he’s currently on a one month ban, for a different thread.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:28 pm 
 

Thy Shrine wrote:
Hey I didn't even say the initial train of comments wasn't ignorant or stupid, I just think he had a valid point in the sense of a lot of rap is fucking dumb, why is that so hard for people to admit.


A lot of every genre of anything is bad. Plenty of really awful metal too as we all seem to agree on.
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elvenefrisian
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:38 am
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:12 am 
 

SolstafirAquilaria wrote:
PinkSatan wrote:
He was directly attacking what he called "ghetto culture", making fun of AAVE, and black culture, calling it "gangsta hoe gangbang" bullshit.

But then again, the only people who would be against Anti-racism are metalheads, sadly. Only reminds me why I distanced myself from metalhead spaces.

I had originally thought that this thread popped up overnight or something, but no, this thread filled with white supremacist bullshit has been here, and the users spewing said hateful and ignorant garbage still here, for over a month now. The lack of any sort of action sends a loud and clear message about what is actually acceptable here or not, and about the sort of culture that is actually allowed here. Just disgusting.


to be fair, I don't think the mods actually tolerate that kind of shit. this dude got banned for posting incel misogynist shit elsewhere, so I'm guessing they just never saw this and we all probably just got a bad habit of yelling at people instead of just reporting this shit.

for real it's got no place in metal. you let misogynists in, you let racists in, etc., you're essentially just telling minorities and women to fuck off if you welcome those people in your community.

I guess sometimes it can be difficult to draw the line, but in this case I feel like it was. I'm not sure exactly what the guidelines are on bigotry here are to be honest. But I mean judging from the way he was banned for his incel comments, I'd hope the same would've happened if a mod ended up in this dumpster of a thread.

there are always going to be people who are trying to embolden and inflame reactionary sentiments unfortunately, it's a pretty big community and metal has a real problem in some corners. and all you can do is kick them the fuck off so they end up on some shittier fringe site that no one else visits.


Last edited by elvenefrisian on Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sepulchrave
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
Posts: 1921
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:09 am 
 

I don't think OP's post here was really worth reporting. He seemed kinda ignorant and overly generalizing about hip hop and other posters here argued against his old-fashioned notions about the genre. Nothing outrageously hateful other than some outdated stereotypes IMO. I don't even think being ignorant about hip hop means you have unsophisticated notions about music. You can't expect everyone to understand or be curious about every genre out there.

The stuff he said in that other thread though... sounds like a loser tbh.
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elvenefrisian
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:38 am
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:36 am 
 

I feel like there's a difference between a lack of curiosity about rap music and calling black artists "degenerates" and throwing around Back The Blue type rhetoric to go with it. I've heard all that stuff before and it's never coming from such a benign place.

idk maybe i'm just jaded and got no patience for any of it anymore. youre right though it is a bit tricky. I genuinely do believe this is just white supremacist rhetoric thinly veiled as really bad art criticism. But yeah I guess those misogynistic remarks didn't even have any such thin veil.

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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1496
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:17 am 
 

elvenefrisian wrote:
I feel like there's a difference between a lack of curiosity about rap music and calling black artists "degenerates" and throwing around Back The Blue type rhetoric to go with it. I've heard all that stuff before and it's never coming from such a benign place.

idk maybe i'm just jaded and got no patience for any of it anymore. youre right though it is a bit tricky. I genuinely do believe this is just white supremacist rhetoric thinly veiled as really bad art criticism. But yeah I guess those misogynistic remarks didn't even have any such thin veil.


I'm going to paraphrase my comments I made about this in another thread: If OP is what they claim to be (I have no idea either way, but I tend to look at users visible location to get some context on what they are saying) - that is from Bosnia-Herzegovina, to what degree is it reasonable to expect the kind of cultural literacy about the whole context of hip-hop culture and American history/race relations that you would from a native English Speaker from the US? If they are legit about about where they come from, I'd bet good money that they only thing you know about Balkan music is "Remove Kebab" accordion memes.

If you had the combination of not speaking English as your native language, never being exposed to AAVE and therefore having a double language barrier, not having any cultural context about the relationship between the black-market economy and historical barriers to participation, the carcerial state in america, the fucked up nature of policing, all that stuff - I guarantee you he's not going to be digging Illmatic or 36 Chambers or Cannibal Ox or De La Soul or KRS-One or whatever. If all you ever saw of hip-hop was no-context lowest-common-denominator shit on TV and you didnt speak the language as fluently I doubt it would make a good impression on you either.

OP essentially got dogpiled here, assuming that they were speaking in good faith (which I can neither confirm or deny), for not being up to speed with American culture as if that's something we should assume is a given. His culture isnt beamed into your living room every day, it's an entirely one-way transmission from the imperial core to the periphery.

"In fact, you can't name one metal album that had the same cultural impact as To Pimp a Butterfly. The guy who made the album literally got a Pulitzer Award. What is profound about hoblin goblin bullshit? Name one metal album as profound as Illmatic. As Wu-tang's debut. As The Low End Theory. As Tetsuo and Youth which is a masterclass in lyricism. As Earl Sweatshirt's Some Rap Songs. As Run the Jewels 2. As The Roots' Things Fall Apart. As Danny Brown's Atrocity Exhibition."

I would ask, "Who's culture"? those albums might be important and ground-breaking statements WITHIN America, but you need to be a bit careful about how universal you say they are. As an Australian they are curiosities or cargo-cult artefacts just as much as Duck Dynasty or Pawn Stars are. It's one of those "fish don't know they're wet" things, but Americans I've known have seemed legitimately nonplussed to hear outsiders point out that despite all the internal divisions, from the outside looking in they are a lot more alike and have more of a common identity than they might realise.
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Last edited by Scorntyrant on Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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elvenefrisian
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:38 am
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:38 am 
 

no dude these are straight up 4chan /pol/ white supremacist attitudes right down to the lingo (also somewhere he admits visiting, maybe that's where he gets it from). it's not like people in Bosnia can't be racist. Reminded of how for the longest time people looked at that Black Pete holiday, and everyone always came rushing to its defense, "Oh they're dutch, they've never even seen black people!"

I really don't understand why y'all feel the need to make excuses. And after repeatedly being told by users on this board that what he was saying was fucked up and racist, he just kept digging at it deeper. Why do we need to give him the benefit of doubt? Because he's Bosnian?

Look either way, even if it's coming entirely out of ignorance (and I don't buy this), you still can't be saying that shit in public. Ignorance don't give you the excuse to just keep saying dumb racist shit.

And the fact that he's also an incel really makes me doubly doubt that he just didn't know what he was saying. Those people have a massive overlap.

This conversation is so fucking frustrating I swear to god. He said some dumb racist shit, we should all be able to agree that it's unacceptable and maybe try to foster an environment where people are not so comfortable saying that kind of stuff, and then move on. Is that so difficult?

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:53 am 
 

No one is mad he doesn't know the intricacies of race and politics in America.

And yeah we probably don't know any of his culture's music which is why it would also be silly to make sweeping negative stereotypes about that kind of music.
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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1496
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:12 am 
 

elvenefrisian wrote:
no dude these are straight up 4chan /pol/ white supremacist attitudes right down to the lingo (also somewhere he admits visiting, maybe that's where he gets it from). it's not like people in Bosnia can't be racist. Reminded of how for the longest time people looked at that Black Pete holiday, and everyone always came rushing to its defense, "Oh they're dutch, they've never even seen black people!"

I really don't understand why y'all feel the need to make excuses. And after repeatedly being told by users on this board that what he was saying was fucked up and racist, he just kept digging at it deeper. Why do we need to give him the benefit of doubt? Because he's Bosnian?

Look either way, even if it's coming entirely out of ignorance (and I don't buy this), you still can't be saying that shit in public. Ignorance don't give you the excuse to just keep saying dumb racist shit.

And the fact that he's also an incel really makes me doubly doubt that he just didn't know what he was saying. Those people have a massive overlap.

This conversation is so fucking frustrating I swear to god. He said some dumb racist shit, we should all be able to agree that it's unacceptable and maybe try to foster an environment where people are not so comfortable saying that kind of stuff, and then move on. Is that so difficult?


Fuck man, you dont get this at all do you. You need me to go through your post with the "citation needed" red pen about how you are arguing from a very specific POV and assuming it's universal? America does not own the internet, nor should you assume that the really particular shiboleths about what is and ins't acceptable to say apply everywhere.

Look, this guy might either be a troll, or an Incel or fuck knows what. In fact it's more than likely. But that's not the point I'm trying to illustrate. You illustrated my point quite perfectly in fact - "
WE repeatedly told him" , "you cant say this" , "those people", "we should all be able to agree that it's unacceptable"....who's this "WE" mate? These arbiters of public virtue? You are projecting an American sensibility about how things should be discussed onto people who don't share it and shaming them when they don't have the same priorities.
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elvenefrisian
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:38 am
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:15 am 
 

By "WE" I mean the users of this board. Yes I do believe that it ought to be a space inclusive towards everyone regardless of their race, gender or orientation. Fuck off with this 'I don't get it', I read what you said and you didn't make a good point. America ain't exactly a bastion of hospitality towards marginalized people so this isn't some Americanism I'm coming at it with.

And yeah if you're being racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, whatever, you ought to be shamed till you shut the fuck up. Calling this an "American sensibility" or whatever is a massive self report.

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PinkSatan
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:06 am
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:39 am 
 

Scorntyrant wrote:



I would ask, "Who's culture"? those albums might be important and ground-breaking statements WITHIN America, but you need to be a bit careful about how universal you say they are. As an Australian they are curiosities or cargo-cult artefacts just as much as Duck Dynasty or Pawn Stars are. It's one of those "fish don't know they're wet" things, but Americans I've known have seemed legitimately nonplussed to hear outsiders point out that despite all the internal divisions, from the outside looking in they are a lot more alike and have more of a common identity than they might realise.

Technically speaking the music industry is still pretty largely American. An album big in America is basically universally big. Its influence is also more pronounced than Bosnia, or even Australia. You are right though that it may not be as big of a cultural impact as I made it out to be, but its influence is definitely bigger than most metal albums, excluding some obvious megahits like Metallica, Slayer, or whatever.
Scorntyrant wrote:

Fuck man, you dont get this at all do you. You need me to go through your post with the "citation needed" red pen about how you are arguing from a very specific POV and assuming it's universal? America does not own the internet, nor should you assume that the really particular shiboleths about what is and ins't acceptable to say apply everywhere.

Look, this guy might either be a troll, or an Incel or fuck knows what. In fact it's more than likely. But that's not the point I'm trying to illustrate. You illustrated my point quite perfectly in fact - "
WE repeatedly told him" , "you cant say this" , "those people", "we should all be able to agree that it's unacceptable"....who's this "WE" mate? These arbiters of public virtue? You are projecting an American sensibility about how things should be discussed onto people who don't share it and shaming them when they don't have the same priorities.

in fact find one centrist, dead or alive, that doesn't side with oppressors and racists. pretty funny the way they are, isn't it.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1008
Location: Directly behind you
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:10 am 
 

Damn, what a thread. Came here to talk about having to hear Mariah Carey's "All I Want For Christmas Is You" in November.
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SolstafirAquilaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 332
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:20 pm 
 

elvenefrisian wrote:
By "WE" I mean the users of this board. Yes I do believe that it ought to be a space inclusive towards everyone regardless of their race, gender or orientation. Fuck off with this 'I don't get it', I read what you said and you didn't make a good point. America ain't exactly a bastion of hospitality towards marginalized people so this isn't some Americanism I'm coming at it with.

And yeah if you're being racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, whatever, you ought to be shamed till you shut the fuck up. Calling this an "American sensibility" or whatever is a massive self report.

100%. fuck off, ScornTyrant. stop going out of your way to shout down and argue someone who is pointing out clear and forward white supremacy.

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~Guest 1452000
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:28 am
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:54 pm 
 

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10344
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:14 pm 
 

OK, couple of things here:

- The idea that we tolerate racism and bigotry in this community is laughable and insulting. Considering the constant harassment my staff and I routinely receive for being "SJWs" (those are only the tamer words used mind you), at this point I don't even know what to say... if you think we still don't do enough, I guess that's your prerogative (and I'm open to constructive feedback here), but don't make accusations like that.

- "So why wasn't the OP banned then?", you may ask. Well, for one, he was. He ate a 1-month ban for misogyny earlier which was set to expire in a few days, only made temporary because he was young and there was a chance, however minuscule, that he could perhaps learn from it.

- As for his posts in this thread... I simply hadn't seen them. Believe it or not, I don't read every thread on this forum. One post (not even the worst one) was reported about a week ago, with the report saying "this guy is a fucking moron". My reaction to the report was to say "yep, he sure seems to be, but he's already banned so w/e". I didn't dive into the thread and read all the posts, no. I didn't see the one where he says the n-word isn't offensive (lol) and dog-whistled about "degenerates" etc. If I had seen them at the time, I would have banned him on the spot. Also FYI, I updated the ban to a permanent immediately after seeing those posts.

- @Scorntyrant: I've seen you make excuses for bigotry before. This is your final warning to stop doing that.

- @Spiral Architect: don't shitpost gifs like that. It's obnoxious.

Anyway, we're done here.

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