Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 446
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:02 pm 
 

Just without the spaces after the first bracket
_________________
!Low-Life Arrogance!
~Feel free to visit: Blog - Shop~
~Live young, die free~

Top
 Profile  
SweetLeaf95
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:19 am
Posts: 609
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:04 pm 
 

Thank you kindly!
_________________
"It's not the kill, it's the thrill of the chase" - Deep Purple

Top
 Profile  
CorpseFister
Veteran

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:07 pm
Posts: 2613
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:50 pm 
 

So, I just noticed the option in PMs to export as a CSV and I'm curious why that function is there.

I'd guess it is for someone who wants to sort a massive amount of messages by username, date, subject etc? But then I wonder why you'd need to in the first place...

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5153
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:55 pm 
 

I guess in case you wanted your own backup? It came with the forum software. You'd have to ask the guys behind phpBB3 for the rationale when it comes to stuff like this.
_________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

R.I.P. Diamhea 1987-2018
Live young, die free. Gone, but not forgotten.

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Has psudo-intelligence

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 7281
Location: Longmont Potion Castle
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:20 pm 
 

It's an antiquated thing from the early 2000s when web hosting was, relatively, more expensive. Many forums would have a limit of 50-100 PMs, and the export option was there so users could download and back up their old PMs. I guess it's CSV since that format probably requires the least processing from the server to export the data from the database. The limit on the number of PMs was probably less about storage space and more about the server load of potentially indexing thousands of PMs for thousands of users regularly, and the potential for that to need to be queried dozens of times per day if users chatted via PM. I'm no database expert, but considering the copyrights on this version of phpBB are 2000-2007, it was definitely a factor back then.

The nature of sites that used a free forum software was probably also a factor. Mostly non-commercial, hobbyist stuff, often run by young people. Things like archives of old PMs didn't need to be stored on the server when users could download them if they needed them. Remember the days before GMail when webmail had storage limits you could easily reach?

It's strange to think, but there was a time when MA pruned old forum posts to clear server space.
_________________
TheConqueror1 wrote:
I think it shows that Zodijackyl has psudo-intelligence.

Top
 Profile  
iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 11156
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:05 am 
 

Yep, I used to moderate a tropical fish hobbyist forum and there was a pretty small limit on PMs. I was constantly having to export them, purge the box, repeat.
_________________
Nolan_B wrote:
I've been punched in the face maybe 3 times in the past 6 months


GLOAMING - death/doom | COMA VOID - black/doom/post-rock

Top
 Profile  
HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 535
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:25 pm 
 

We are all able to see a users' submitted bands. Are moderators also able to see rejected bands that have been deleted from drafts since years? I have a few such bands, and actually the submissions were very stupid...
_________________
vacca wrote:
"Pointwhoring is no fun. Pointwhoring endangers the life and happiness of millions. It must stop. We appeal in particular to the youth of today, stop the madness. There are better things in life."

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5153
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:38 pm 
 

We can't see your active drafts, but we can see deleted drafts... even if they were never submitted to the queue.

Rest assured, we don't judge or care how stupid they are. ;)
_________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

R.I.P. Diamhea 1987-2018
Live young, die free. Gone, but not forgotten.

Top
 Profile  
HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 535
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:54 pm 
 

Even if you did, they're from ages ago and I've definitely learned since. That's very strange that you can only see a draft once it's been deleted... does this link work for you? I've had it in my drafts since 2013, obviously never submitted.
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Te ... 3540370302
_________________
vacca wrote:
"Pointwhoring is no fun. Pointwhoring endangers the life and happiness of millions. It must stop. We appeal in particular to the youth of today, stop the madness. There are better things in life."

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5153
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:00 pm 
 

Hmm, I should have rephrased that. We can see bands in a user's drafts if they're directly linked to us, like that one. However, there's no list I can go to, to see all your drafts at once.
_________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

R.I.P. Diamhea 1987-2018
Live young, die free. Gone, but not forgotten.

Top
 Profile  
MetalCuresHeadaches
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:35 pm
Posts: 858
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:03 pm 
 

I know you still have a bit of time to plan, but has the staff come up with any ideas for celebrating the 10 year anniversary of O.C.'s open Abaddon report? Maybe the report can get a unique status instead of just 'assigned', kinda like what happened with christkiller's old account.
_________________
islwnd wrote:
Grow the fuck up and mind your own business.

Top
 Profile  
OpsiusCato
Mexican Metal Inquisition

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 2582
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:25 pm 
 

MetalCuresHeadaches wrote:
I know you still have a bit of time to plan, but has the staff come up with any ideas for celebrating the 10 year anniversary of O.C.'s open Abaddon report? Maybe the report can get a unique status instead of just 'assigned', kinda like what happened with christkiller's old account.

What in all hells do you care how long it takes me to investigate stuff of my country scene? It's *none* of your business.

There, I deleted the report. Are you happy now?

My work in this place is not something that exists for you to make fun of. I'm not here to amuse you.
_________________
Uncolored, commenting on Erosion of Humanity's allergies wrote:
Your house in Chicago is possessed by Unholy Virus
PhilosophicalFrog, making accurate statements as usual, wrote:
Opsius is Metal as fuck.

Top
 Profile  
HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 535
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:17 pm 
 

Well, I doubt many continue investigating for such a long time without eventually getting distracted. To be honest, a report staying open and unforgotten for 6 years is not exactly a common sight, so for that reason comments were kind of inevitable. Personally, I wouldn't have been bothered at all by such comments nor would I have ever given such reactions... they don't help a lot, but they're totally harmless. Then again, we're all different... it seems you wanted as little attention as possible, which is also somewhat understandable. Additionally, could MCH's post have been a big compliment as well? It was definitely an acknowledgement of your work...
_________________
vacca wrote:
"Pointwhoring is no fun. Pointwhoring endangers the life and happiness of millions. It must stop. We appeal in particular to the youth of today, stop the madness. There are better things in life."

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9475
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:32 pm 
 

I think he meant it in a positive/complimentary way, OP... :|
_________________
Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Top
 Profile  
MetalCuresHeadaches
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:35 pm
Posts: 858
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:39 pm 
 

Yeah, it was really just some gentle ribbing...there was nothing wrong with the report. The Abaddon report always being open was mainly just inside joke among those of us that work the report queue.
_________________
islwnd wrote:
Grow the fuck up and mind your own business.

Top
 Profile  
DeadKid
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 28
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:54 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
I can't recall their name at the moment, but I know there's one band here who actually did accomplish your hypothetical, having one death or thrash metal demo and then a full decade or more career of alternative/grunge rock.

Shihad perhaps. Their debut full-length produced by Jaz Coleman is borderline as they went through industrial metal on their way to alternative rock.

Top
 Profile  
HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 535
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:17 am 
 

How many upvotes has Hades777 casted for similar bands? He appears everywhere...
_________________
vacca wrote:
"Pointwhoring is no fun. Pointwhoring endangers the life and happiness of millions. It must stop. We appeal in particular to the youth of today, stop the madness. There are better things in life."

Top
 Profile  
PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 446
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:18 am 
 

HouseSpiders wrote:
How many upvotes has Hades777 casted for similar bands? He appears everywhere...

Up and down combined: 30,784
Looks like that's pretty much all he does...or did
_________________
!Low-Life Arrogance!
~Feel free to visit: Blog - Shop~
~Live young, die free~

Top
 Profile  
HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 535
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:00 am 
 

That's a crazy number. I don't think I have ever seen him downvote anything. He definitely isn't as active as he was, but no doubt he has the record for the most votes.
_________________
vacca wrote:
"Pointwhoring is no fun. Pointwhoring endangers the life and happiness of millions. It must stop. We appeal in particular to the youth of today, stop the madness. There are better things in life."

Top
 Profile  
PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 446
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:03 pm 
 

HouseSpiders wrote:
That's a crazy number. I don't think I have ever seen him downvote anything. He definitely isn't as active as he was, but no doubt he has the record for the most votes.

There are some downvotes of him, but yep, mostly up.
_________________
!Low-Life Arrogance!
~Feel free to visit: Blog - Shop~
~Live young, die free~

Top
 Profile  
Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1252
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:55 pm 
 

Are those who choose to delete their account (in order to, well, save face after an incident) allowed to create a new one? Or are they to be treated as banned users? Thanks.
_________________
❝I ᴡɪʟʟ sʜᴏᴡ ʏᴏᴜ ғᴇᴀʀ ɪɴ ᴀ ʜᴀɴᴅғᴜʟ ᴏғ ᴅᴜsᴛ.❞
Iᴛᴇᴍs ғᴏʀ ᴛʀᴀᴅᴇ ᴏʀ sᴀʟᴇ ɪɴ ᴄᴀsᴇ ʏᴏᴜ ᴀʀᴇ ɪɴᴛᴇʀᴇsᴛᴇᴅ.

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9475
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:59 pm 
 

They can create a new one if they change their mind, but if we see this is done in order to ban-evade or act as sock puppets, we'd ban the new accounts.
_________________
Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Top
 Profile  
Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1252
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:19 pm 
 

Got it. Thanks, Morri.
_________________
❝I ᴡɪʟʟ sʜᴏᴡ ʏᴏᴜ ғᴇᴀʀ ɪɴ ᴀ ʜᴀɴᴅғᴜʟ ᴏғ ᴅᴜsᴛ.❞
Iᴛᴇᴍs ғᴏʀ ᴛʀᴀᴅᴇ ᴏʀ sᴀʟᴇ ɪɴ ᴄᴀsᴇ ʏᴏᴜ ᴀʀᴇ ɪɴᴛᴇʀᴇsᴛᴇᴅ.

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Has psudo-intelligence

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 7281
Location: Longmont Potion Castle
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:35 pm 
 

Bans are tied to people and the underlying behavior. Using multiple accounts deceitfully is pretty much an instant ban, but if someone comes back a while later and seems to have corrected their errors, we can be forgiving. Rarely will we be tricked, as those habits tend to be pretty transparent.

That being said, the proper channel is to ask to be unbanned - if you recognize what you did wrong and understand it, just ask us and if it is honest and in good faith, you will likely be unbanned.

...just don't post about politics or argue in site-work threads and you'll do well.
_________________
TheConqueror1 wrote:
I think it shows that Zodijackyl has psudo-intelligence.

Top
 Profile  
Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1252
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:34 am 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
...just don't post about politics

Pretty much what made me wonder... I thought deleting one's account would preclude a potential ban (and then what?), hence my question. ;) Clarified.
_________________
❝I ᴡɪʟʟ sʜᴏᴡ ʏᴏᴜ ғᴇᴀʀ ɪɴ ᴀ ʜᴀɴᴅғᴜʟ ᴏғ ᴅᴜsᴛ.❞
Iᴛᴇᴍs ғᴏʀ ᴛʀᴀᴅᴇ ᴏʀ sᴀʟᴇ ɪɴ ᴄᴀsᴇ ʏᴏᴜ ᴀʀᴇ ɪɴᴛᴇʀᴇsᴛᴇᴅ.

Top
 Profile  
into_the_pit
Veteran

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:40 pm
Posts: 2618
Location: Hedonist Occupation Government
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:41 pm 
 

may I ask what happened to mr sunlight? apparently he's no longer registered as a user. :(
_________________
Blort wrote:
"The neo-Hegelian overtones contrast heavily with the proto-Nietzschean discordance evident in this piece."
"Um, what work are you examining here?"
"Chainsaw Gutsfuck."

Top
 Profile  
Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 9703
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:53 pm 
 

He terminated his account.
_________________
Da Däéfö schlåft nèd. || Last.fm | Discogs | Goodreads | BOINC

No cat food and a toe knife out the window?! I mean, what am I doin'? Puttin' on airs because I got company?

Top
 Profile  
Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3602
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:05 pm 
 

He achieved enlightenment and transcended his earthly shell into ~Guest 226319.
_________________
iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

Top
 Profile  
EzraBlumenfeld
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:50 pm
Posts: 206
Location: Land of No Return
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:02 pm 
 

TheGreatDuck wrote:
PDS wrote:
There was also a guy who only posted with orange text. It was fucking annoying, good thing that got snuffed out pretty quickly.


How is posting in orange any more annoying than posting in white (yeah, I realize I'm responding to a post that's more than a year old)?


Responding late to an old question about an old post. I think intentionally going out of your way to change the color of your font in all your posts is pretty obnoxious.
_________________
MisanthropicEvil wrote:
This album reeled me in with it's eye-catching album cover but vomited a whole load of musical diarrhea in my face as soon as I started listening! I would not even use this album to wipe my butt.


Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
EzraBlumenfeld
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:50 pm
Posts: 206
Location: Land of No Return
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:10 pm 
 

If I may ask, why is that some so-called "Freddies" have as many as six points? Isn't the purpose to erase all of them?
_________________
MisanthropicEvil wrote:
This album reeled me in with it's eye-catching album cover but vomited a whole load of musical diarrhea in my face as soon as I started listening! I would not even use this album to wipe my butt.


Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 9703
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:10 am 
 

Examples?
_________________
Da Däéfö schlåft nèd. || Last.fm | Discogs | Goodreads | BOINC

No cat food and a toe knife out the window?! I mean, what am I doin'? Puttin' on airs because I got company?

Top
 Profile  
BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 8845
Location: Elgin, Illinois
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:58 am 
 

EzraBlumenfeld wrote:
If I may ask, why is that some so-called "Freddies" have as many as six points? Isn't the purpose to erase all of them?


Actually we allow them to keep contributing as long as the only thing they do is update Fred Durst's artist page.
_________________
Lair of the Bastard: LATEST REVIEW: Wombripper - From the Depths of Flesh
The Outer RIM - Uatism: The dogs bark in street slang

Top
 Profile  
Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 9703
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:20 am 
 

ah, I think I know what's up with those. Since banned users can still file reports (you don't need an account for that, after all), sometimes they receive a point for a helpful report. It's a slight glitch/oversight in the system, but it doesn't matter really. The points may increase, but the accounts are still blocked from editing the site as their rank doesn't change.
_________________
Da Däéfö schlåft nèd. || Last.fm | Discogs | Goodreads | BOINC

No cat food and a toe knife out the window?! I mean, what am I doin'? Puttin' on airs because I got company?

Top
 Profile  
PaganiusI
Zee Bombelecher

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 446
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:57 pm 
 

Uhm, I don't think it's that. I closed a few mrmetalhead reports and wanted to give him a point and I think it gave me an error. He doesn't have points.
_________________
!Low-Life Arrogance!
~Feel free to visit: Blog - Shop~
~Live young, die free~

Top
 Profile  
Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 9703
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:43 pm 
 

hm, so I guess that got fixed. I got nothing then.
_________________
Da Däéfö schlåft nèd. || Last.fm | Discogs | Goodreads | BOINC

No cat food and a toe knife out the window?! I mean, what am I doin'? Puttin' on airs because I got company?

Top
 Profile  
OpsiusCato
Mexican Metal Inquisition

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 2582
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:49 pm 
 

Azmodes wrote:
ah, I think I know what's up with those. Since banned users can still file reports (you don't need an account for that, after all), sometimes they receive a point for a helpful report. It's a slight glitch/oversight in the system, but it doesn't matter really. The points may increase, but the accounts are still blocked from editing the site as their rank doesn't change.

I've seen that happening too. Maybe it got fixed at some point? Haven't stumbled upon such instances in a while.
_________________
Uncolored, commenting on Erosion of Humanity's allergies wrote:
Your house in Chicago is possessed by Unholy Virus
PhilosophicalFrog, making accurate statements as usual, wrote:
Opsius is Metal as fuck.

Top
 Profile  
HouseSpiders
Heavy Metal C-3PO

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 535
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:39 pm 
 

I counted 37 users on the site who have the Fred Durst rank and more than 0 points. Among all those users, KiwiPhoenix777 takes the cake. I don't know how many banned users there are, although I believe we have a lot more than 37, so it must just be a rare glitch that happened a few times.

https://www.metal-archives.com/users/KiwiPhoenix777
_________________
vacca wrote:
"Pointwhoring is no fun. Pointwhoring endangers the life and happiness of millions. It must stop. We appeal in particular to the youth of today, stop the madness. There are better things in life."

Top
 Profile  
Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 9703
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:15 am 
 

Could be a remnant of the issue I described. That user was banned before v2/April 2011.
_________________
Da Däéfö schlåft nèd. || Last.fm | Discogs | Goodreads | BOINC

No cat food and a toe knife out the window?! I mean, what am I doin'? Puttin' on airs because I got company?

Top
 Profile  
MetalCuresHeadaches
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:35 pm
Posts: 858
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:07 pm 
 

Has it been long enough for us to ask what happened with Emptiness Cycle? His bizarrely intricate knowledge of obscure NS bands was always intriguing to me, and it's noticeably lacking now that he's been booted.
_________________
islwnd wrote:
Grow the fuck up and mind your own business.

Top
 Profile  
EzraBlumenfeld
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:50 pm
Posts: 206
Location: Land of No Return
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:03 pm 
 

What accesses does a banned user retain? I know they can't modify any data but they can submit reports. Can they still modify their collections and profiles, or delete reviews they had previously submitted?
_________________
MisanthropicEvil wrote:
This album reeled me in with it's eye-catching album cover but vomited a whole load of musical diarrhea in my face as soon as I started listening! I would not even use this album to wipe my butt.


Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1 ... 22, 23, 24, 25, 26  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lunaterra and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group