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acid_bukkake
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:34 am 
 

I've been watching a lot of the Misawa/Kawada series, and Misawa's flaws are glaring. He seems to be the only big puro guy who doesn't have a whole lot of detractors, and I always get called crazy for saying he was maybe the third-best of that Four Pillars group (I alternate between Kobashi and Kawada as the top), but that psychology only works in the way the moves are built up. He was pretty bad at selling, really, and so much of the complaints about today's talents not knowing how to sell comes from '90s All Japan and mid-'90s J-Cup tournies being as highly regarded as they are.
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quickbeam
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:09 am
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:44 am 
 

Anyone watch the G1 this year? I honestly don't think I've ever enjoyed wrestling so much. What a ridiculous 4 weeks of matches.

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FasterDisaster
Metal Pounder

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:08 pm
Posts: 8000
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:05 am 
 

Holy shit, did anybody catch AJ Style's new shirt on SmackDown Live last night? My god, that's how you utilize a theme song correctly.

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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1339
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:04 am 
 

acid_bukkake wrote:
I've been watching a lot of the Misawa/Kawada series, and Misawa's flaws are glaring. He seems to be the only big puro guy who doesn't have a whole lot of detractors, and I always get called crazy for saying he was maybe the third-best of that Four Pillars group (I alternate between Kobashi and Kawada as the top), but that psychology only works in the way the moves are built up. He was pretty bad at selling, really, and so much of the complaints about today's talents not knowing how to sell comes from '90s All Japan and mid-'90s J-Cup tournies being as highly regarded as they are.


Well, the old AJPW style did focus quite a bit of it on selling but also on no-selling depending on what point of the match the guys were in. I think the complaint about modern (generally american) wrestlers not selling enough stems from them not knowing when to and how to. Granted I don't watch much wrestling at all anymore but I really can't stand the popular independent style. I realize there's loads of talent i a company like ROH but their matches are often full speed ahead all the time. The same with Lucha Underground. The selling is often completely out of the window regardless of the situation.

Old AJPW-style however knew when it was appropriate to start or stop selling. I love it when Kobashi decides to no sell a huge suplex when a match nears the climax. Or how the guys used to sometimes no-sell elbows or slaps. But the point is that they didn't do it all the time. It was never a case of no-selling and jumping up to "get all my trademark shit in". It was more about if it benefited the match or not.

But then again I have followed puroresu since the late 90's and it is by far my favourite kind of wrestling (AJPW, NJPW and NOAH depending on the era) so I am biased towards the more traditional style (even though it was FMW that was the first promotion from Japan that I discovered).

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acid_bukkake
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:36 am 
 

There's not much I disagree with there, really. The "LET'S FUCKING NO-SELL!" trend of the indy boom (ROH, CZW, etc.) was a plethora of talent who grew up tape trading to get those AJPW classics and missed the point on most of it. I still think Misawa's overrated, but those final minutes in every one of his big matches are incredible due to the work put in beforehand. Excellent psychology, just not great selling, at least to my Western sense of the word. Kobashi is king.

Really, of the big indy guys from the last ~16 years, I can only think of Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, LowKi, and Christopher Daniels (weird...the "four pillars" of early ROH) who got it. Watching Ki sell his knee during the 4-way Iron Man for the first ROH title is a thing of beauty and seeing Joe start to slow down toward the end of his more "bitter" matches from the wear and tear is something else.
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JohnTheDrummer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:06 am 
 

quickbeam wrote:
Anyone watch the G1 this year? I honestly don't think I've ever enjoyed wrestling so much. What a ridiculous 4 weeks of matches.


I REALLY want to watch it, but I feel like there is just tooooo much to do :lol: . I know that Omega/Naito was nuts, and I definitely want to watch that, but I hate just watching one match at a time, I prefer whole shows. What would you recommend? Whole thing? Just the semi-finals to the end?

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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:02 pm 
 

JohnTheDrummer wrote:
quickbeam wrote:
Anyone watch the G1 this year? I honestly don't think I've ever enjoyed wrestling so much. What a ridiculous 4 weeks of matches.


I REALLY want to watch it, but I feel like there is just tooooo much to do :lol: . I know that Omega/Naito was nuts, and I definitely want to watch that, but I hate just watching one match at a time, I prefer whole shows. What would you recommend? Whole thing? Just the semi-finals to the end?


I watched the two previous years and while it was rewarding one has to be kind of crazy to watch everything (and have time to put aside for watching puro - which I don't have this year). I believe this years tournament had 91 matches! So unless you're super exited I'd probably cherry pick the best from the group stages and then perhaps watch the last three shows in full (as I've heard those are good).

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Festivus
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:45 pm 
 

So, how many of you watched SummerSlam last night?

Man, talk about bad luck for Sasha and Baylor, eh? And Lesnar sure busted Orton open in their match. I dont' remember the last time I saw so much blood in a WWE match. This wasn't even blading. Orton had to take several stitches.
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acid_bukkake
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:10 am 
 

Jericho and Brock got into a little bit of a scuffle after because of it. Jericho was concerned for Orton's well-being and asked people in the back if that was plan, didn't get an answer, and then confronted Brock when he got back through the curtain over it. Most reports have Jericho actually getting the best of Brock before they were split up, but that Jericho called Brock out on not working safe and wouldn't back down says a lot about his character.

Who'd have thunk that Chris "C'MON BABAY!" Jericho would be one of the guys in the back that would take the least amount of shit? He's 2-0 in backstage confrontations with people that probably could've killed him (Goldberg and Brock).

Tongue in cheek, naitch.
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aaronmb666
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:46 am 
 

Watched most of Summerslam and they really need to put the belt on Styles.
As for Lesnar, I'd be very surprised if this whole isn't a work, as it's the main thing people have been talking about.

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FasterDisaster
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:26 am 
 

SummerSlam was a bit of a shitshow this year. Styles and Cena put on the goddamn match of the year, again, at SummerSlam. Their Money In The Bank match told a really incredible story the first time around.

The injuries all around this year were unfortunate. Two people, arguably, who were supposed to carry their respective divisions (Finn and Sasha) are injured, or need time off. Also, Orton should've gone over Lesnar, I think. Orton could've gone with the original plan to beat Lesnar and then have an amazing feud with Styles, but since Lesnar opened him up like a watermelon being slammed on the ground, I wouldn't be surprised if he's out for the next month. I get it was a work, but Orton needing 10 staples is not.

Super fucking curious over how Finn comes back. Rollins needs to retire that ridiculous buckle bomb / barrier bomb. He ended Sting's career with it and now he fucked up Finn.

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FuneralDoomed23
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:35 pm 
 

Yeah Summerslam was pretty horrible. The only good things were Styles vs Cena and Balor vs Rollins. I just can't get enough of AJ Styles he puts on 4 to 5 star matches day and day out. His match against Ziggler was awesome on Smackdown. He also knows how to work the mic well, and plays a great arrogant asshole! Rumor has it Roman Reigns will win the title on Raw next week, which is the worst idea EVER. Give it to Owens or Rollins!

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FasterDisaster
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:17 am 
 

Dude, I know! AJ Styles is so good! He pulled out a real old-school move in that torture rack to bomb transition that got the false count. I said, "man, this is '04 Styles shit!"

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aaronmb666
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:24 pm 
 

Gotta say, if Vince didnt have such a hardon for Lesnar, I think Bray Wyatt shouldve taken the streak(or at least kept Taker undefeated). Its starting to feel like his matches are the same and pointless. There's a bunch of guys on NXT that could be doing better matches.

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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:02 pm 
 

aaronmb666 wrote:
Gotta say, if Vince didnt have such a hardon for Lesnar, I think Bray Wyatt shouldve taken the streak(or at least kept Taker undefeated). Its starting to feel like his matches are the same and pointless. There's a bunch of guys on NXT that could be doing better matches.


Strongly disagree. When was the last time WWE had a wrestler with more cross over worth than Lesnar? Probably the Rock. Before him? Probably no-one. His limited schedule makes him special and people do not get tired of seeing him (regardless of what you think of any other person on the roster they are way too exposed). + He's booked like an old school monster and he can more than carry his load of the job - and that is never a bad thing. He's one of few people who are kept strong on the roster and that in itself has a tremendous worth (in comparison to almost everyone else who wins just as much as they loose).

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:59 pm 
 

The issue with Brock is, and Dean Ambrose confirmed as much in his Stone Cold Podcast, he's gotten very, very lazy, content to just do Suplex City style squash beatdowns and not showing anywhere near what he can really do. When Brock's on point, we get stuff like the Royal Rumble triple threat or the Summerslam match against CM Punk. When he's just collecting a check, as he has been for a while now, we get the Mania match with Ambrose and whatever the hell the Orton match was. It isn't even really a factor of "We gotta keep him strong so whoever beats him gets the major rub" anymore either; It was very clear that Roman was supposed to beat him at Wrestlemania 31 before they were forced to go to plan B with Seth cashing in, so for the past year and a half they've been having Brock just destroy everyone and there's literally nobody that can stop him. I guarantee you they're gonna go for the Roman match again in the future, but I also guarantee you that it'll be just like Wrestlemania again, especially now that Roman is even deeper in the shit with the audience than he was back then.
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Festivus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:28 pm 
 

Does Brock Lesnar really have that much crossover appeal, though? I mean, he's big in the wrestling and MMA world, but outside of both of those bubbles? I doubt he's very big. How many times has Brock gone on talk shows? Given interviews to big newspapers? Gotten pop culture references? Been offered big movie roles?

Hell, Lesnar himself doesn't seem to be interested in getting talked on the media often except for his work. In the Stone Cold podcast he even said he doesn't like people much, iirc.

Still, Lesnar alongside Cena, is the only guy in the current roster with cross over appeal. Which says more about the roster than them.

WWE has failed to make stars in this decade. In the 80s, it wasn't just Hogan who had cross over appeal. Many people from those days still remember guys like Piper, André, Jake the Sanke, Sgt. Slaughter, Macho Man, Ultimate Warrior, etc.

Even in the "New Generation Era" which was possibly the worst North American wrestling era ever from a financial and ratings standpoint, Bret Hart and The Undertaker were big stars. Just like some people still remember Doink the Clown.

Monday Night Wars/Attitude Era is a no brainer. Austin, Rock, Mankind, DX, nWo, Sting, Goldberg, etc.

2002 on? Well, Lesnar, Cena and I guess Batista. Batista is getting big movie roles and his WHC title run in 2005 improved house show revenue, if I'm not mistaken. Orton however, I doubt non-wrestling fans know who he is at all. Honestly, always found Orton to be overrated and more of a McMahon 3rd gen wrestler fetish than anything.
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quickbeam
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:09 am
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:30 pm 
 

JohnTheDrummer wrote:
quickbeam wrote:
Anyone watch the G1 this year? I honestly don't think I've ever enjoyed wrestling so much. What a ridiculous 4 weeks of matches.


I REALLY want to watch it, but I feel like there is just tooooo much to do :lol: . I know that Omega/Naito was nuts, and I definitely want to watch that, but I hate just watching one match at a time, I prefer whole shows. What would you recommend? Whole thing? Just the semi-finals to the end?


Aye, it's difficult to go back and watch whole shows afterwards. I would say the last 3 nights (culminations of Blocks A & B, plus the final) are must see. Each night has a 5 star headliner imo, and the undercard is usually really good. Apart from this, I really noticed that there were particular guys I enjoyed watching: like, not every Yoshi-Hashi, EVIL or SANADA match was excellent or anything, but I got really invested in them and enjoyed them all. Marufuji, Elgin, Okada & Ishii all had specific matches I would recommend as worth watching in a vacuum. Especially the Okada/Ishii match is must-see.

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aaronmb666
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:30 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
aaronmb666 wrote:
Gotta say, if Vince didnt have such a hardon for Lesnar, I think Bray Wyatt shouldve taken the streak(or at least kept Taker undefeated). Its starting to feel like his matches are the same and pointless. There's a bunch of guys on NXT that could be doing better matches.


Strongly disagree. When was the last time WWE had a wrestler with more cross over worth than Lesnar? Probably the Rock. Before him? Probably no-one. His limited schedule makes him special and people do not get tired of seeing him (regardless of what you think of any other person on the roster they are way too exposed). + He's booked like an old school monster and he can more than carry his load of the job - and that is never a bad thing. He's one of few people who are kept strong on the roster and that in itself has a tremendous worth (in comparison to almost everyone else who wins just as much as they loose).


I think JR said that when Vince first met Lesnar and Lesnar said something like "I want to be an entertainer, not a wrestler", Vince had an orgasmic look to him. Lesnar's UFC thing was big, since he was 100% this time, but it didn't really make a difference. The biggest thing to come out of it was finding out that he tested positive. He hasnt really had a good match in a while. The Mania match sucked, as well, as Ortons.
Speaking of the streak, it's actually kind of surprising that Triple H didn't break it. Lesnar breaking it makes even less sense, since Triple H beat him the year before.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:58 pm 
 

Hunter said in an interview the same year as his match with Taker at Mania 27 that the Streak should never be broken. That didn't stop the viewer from shitting his/her pants at some of the near falls in the two Hunter/Taker matches at Manias 27 and 28, but the sentiment was still there. It was actually Vince's call to have Brock end the Streak as Vince thought Taker was on his last leg as a performer, and in many ways he was. The real shock factor in that win came not just from the fact that the Streak was ended, but that it was Brock Lesnar who did it, who in the past year or so prior had been booked so poorly aside from the Punk match, including in the build up to Mania 30.

At least that win gave us a solid year of Brock being an awesome killing machine, with the Cena squash at Summerslam, the Royal Rumble triple threat, the Roman match at Mania 31, and destroying Michael Cole on Raw. The Seth Rollins match I've completely disregarded at this point, and his two matches with Taker at Summerslam and Hell in a Cell were damn good to great, the former being completely robbed of any replay value because of that horseshit finish.
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aaronmb666
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:30 am 
 

Subrick wrote:
Hunter said in an interview the same year as his match with Taker at Mania 27 that the Streak should never be broken. That didn't stop the viewer from shitting his/her pants at some of the near falls in the two Hunter/Taker matches at Manias 27 and 28, but the sentiment was still there. It was actually Vince's call to have Brock end the Streak as Vince thought Taker was on his last leg as a performer, and in many ways he was. The real shock factor in that win came not just from the fact that the Streak was ended, but that it was Brock Lesnar who did it, who in the past year or so prior had been booked so poorly aside from the Punk match, including in the build up to Mania 30.

At least that win gave us a solid year of Brock being an awesome killing machine, with the Cena squash at Summerslam, the Royal Rumble triple threat, the Roman match at Mania 31, and destroying Michael Cole on Raw. The Seth Rollins match I've completely disregarded at this point, and his two matches with Taker at Summerslam and Hell in a Cell were damn good to great, the former being completely robbed of any replay value because of that horseshit finish.


When Vince explained it on Austins podcast, it was heavily implied that it was Takers last match. Instead, he does two more pointless Wrestlemania's(I get it with Shane's match, it was out of desperation). Instead of Undertaker vs Sting, we got Triple H vs Sting, which no one wanted, with the match being shitty and making no sense.

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acid_bukkake
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:57 pm 
 

Count me in the camp that thinks Wyatt should've broken the Streak. He should be the modern version of Taker, with the encapsulating entrance, horror movie feel, and being an actually good talent whose presence makes up for whatever shortcomings they may have in the ring or on the mic. Bray shouldn't be losing unless it's a huge deal, as his constant failure makes people who like him (read: THE BULK OF THE AUDIENCE) feel silly for supporting a talent that aren't being handled well. It's a problem that has been all over the show since Attitude ended, but the booking has been so shit with such key talent in the past ~5 years that holy shit why does anybody watch?

Of course, the ratings reflect that.

re: Brock's crossover appeal
It doesn't matter too much that he's not bringing the UFC audience to watch WWE. MMA and wrestling are cousins in nature, with UFC being the top MMA promotion in the world by copying lassi pro wrestling match making and presentation, but the audiences aren't too big into overlapping. One is theater, one is sport. Buuuuuut? Brock's legitimacy and return in 2012 definitely brought mainstream media again. Here's the former UFC Heavyweight champion in a pro wrestling ring, there's Seth Rollins on the Daily Show, over here is Dean Ambrose on Kelly Ripa, then John Cena hosts the ESPYs, and voila: mainstream media starts to report on pro wrestling.

Brock ending the Streak was the next best choice after they flubbed Wyatt. He had history with Taker (including one of the best HIAC matches ever), they're friendly backstage, and nobody on the roster has more credibility than they do (Taker with wrestling fans, Brock with real fight experience). Having Brock end the Streak was the shot he needed after how terribly he was handled on his return and that each match he's had since (save for the Ambrose debacle) was often the most hyped one on the show.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:46 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
The issue with Brock is, and Dean Ambrose confirmed as much in his Stone Cold Podcast, he's gotten very, very lazy, content to just do Suplex City style squash beatdowns and not showing anywhere near what he can really do. When Brock's on point, we get stuff like the Royal Rumble triple threat or the Summerslam match against CM Punk. When he's just collecting a check, as he has been for a while now, we get the Mania match with Ambrose and whatever the hell the Orton match was. It isn't even really a factor of "We gotta keep him strong so whoever beats him gets the major rub" anymore either; It was very clear that Roman was supposed to beat him at Wrestlemania 31 before they were forced to go to plan B with Seth cashing in, so for the past year and a half they've been having Brock just destroy everyone and there's literally nobody that can stop him. I guarantee you they're gonna go for the Roman match again in the future, but I also guarantee you that it'll be just like Wrestlemania again, especially now that Roman is even deeper in the shit with the audience than he was back then.


I think it is about how WWE wants to push him. He obviously don't do squash style matches because he is lazy - he wouldn't be allowed to crush Cena and Orton on the way he has if WWE didn't want to book his matches that way.

As far as crossover appeal I am mainly talking about MMA and pro-wrestling crossover which is actually quite big (I remember a nice big article Dave Meltzer published on the subject a few years ago). I'd argue larger than any other two "sports" - like to compare boxing and mma or boxing and pro-wrestling. And when Lesnar has headlined PPV's bought by more than a million people I'd argue that he's about as big a star as you get in this world with just a few exceptions (like Ronda Rousey who was very much in the mainstream media).

However atm I think the UFC is much better at attracting pro-wrestling fans to their product than the reverse. This is obvious. They are the hotter product still and they can actually steal or loan talent from WWE. The reverse hasn't really happened yet. And obviously a pro-wrestling fan doesn't mind that the UFC is a real sport, they get the drama and the angles + a real fight. The other way around is trickier though since WWE will always have a tougher time attracting pure MMA fans since pro-wrestling is scripted.

Brock was having some good matches when he returned to WWE but he was booked to loose way to often. A lost opportunity. However the Taker win and the push since has repaired that for the most part. Obviously the actual match wasn't what anyone expected but shit happens. Taker was concussed and the match fell apart.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:32 pm 
 

Ronda Rousey went to the WWE for a thing and there's some speculation Conor might do the same given his recent working of the current WWE roster. Not to mention Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock back in the day both went to the WWE for brief stints.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:17 pm 
 

Shamrock was actually in the WWF actively for two-and-a-half years and was quite a name in the upper midcard at various points. Severn was only in for under a year, brought in initially just for that dumb NWA invasion storyline and then left to do nothing afterwards except take part in both the ridiculous Brawl for All and the tasteless angle where Owen Hart "broke his neck" with the same piledriver that broke Austin's neck a year earlier.

At least we got the ultra-surreal sight of UFC title belts and the NWA title belt on Raw is War out of it.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:21 pm 
 

Yep, I was actively watching during those days. I remember 'em well.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:14 am 
 

The Severn broken neck thing is one of those ultra-stupid moments that Attitude Era apologists tend to either not know about (especially if they're younger and weren't actually around for the Attitude Era) or conveniently forget about when talking about just how better that period was compared to now. Same with the Terri Runnels miscarriage. And Beaver Cleavage. And Chaz being accused of spousal abuse. And the Brawl for All. And the NWA invasion. And Wrestlemania 15.

You get the idea.

Considering just how much of an emphasis there is on workrate across the entire wrestling spectrum nowadays, it's astounding to think just how much of a backseat the matches themselves took in late 90s WWF, particularly on the weekly shows. The average Raw of 1998 and 1999 was just a giant mess of 2-3 minute long matches with little actual action in them, even for their lengths. I've always said that the WWF's product in that time was the polar opposite of WCW's in that it literally was the polar opposite; In WCW, the main events were typically hot garbage, while the midcard was red hot with awesome matches and workers every show, yet the only ones who were presented as being anything of real worth on the show were the main eventers. In the WWF, the undercard was generally not all that great - not to the badness levels of WCW's main events, but still incredibly mediocre on any given night - while the main event was always red hot and loaded with awesome moments. The other major difference there was that in the WWF, everyone was over and on fire, even the guys in meaningless European and Hardcore title feuds, unlike WCW, where, as stated, no one outside the main event really mattered, regardless of how great their matches were.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:16 am 
 

I'm not sure if the Attitude Era is worse or better but I do know I much prefer the wrestlers of that time. Lots more gimmicks and overall more entertaining and individualist. Wrestlers in the WWE these days tend to blend together for me.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:59 am 
 

They were more colorful characters as opposed to the current "Reality Era", but a large amount of it has not aged well at all. Some stuff will always remain great no matter what, like Hell in a Cell 1998 or the first year of the Austin vs. McMahon feud, but that's turning out to be the exception rather than the rule.

I'll give you a prime example of a specific match that just doesn't work anymore: Stone Cold vs. Triple H at No Mercy 1999. I'm sure at the time this was an incredibly fun brawl, but I watched this match again a week or so ago and it's literally every single trope of the Austin-era main event brawl stitched into one 20 minute long stretch. It goes through the motions of opening punching, crowd brawling, liberal use of steel chairs, run ins, and finisher trading, and none of it is really fun anymore. That's just me though; I'm sure there are people that could watch every Austin main event ever and never get tired, but the only stuff of his I really tend to go back and watch aside from his series with The Rock and the No Way Out 3 Stages of Hell match with Triple H are his 1998 matches*, especially Over the Edge against Dude Love. That's one match that I will always watch the entire segment of, including the hype video and completely ridiculous ring introductions with Howard Finkel reading Pat Patterson's handwritten intro on flash cards ("A role model for children; A friend to us all."). That's when that particular style was freshest and most interesting.

*By this I mean from his main event WWF run. He had some excellent matches in WCW in the early 90s, and his 1996 and 97 work with Bret Hart was obviously a gold standard for pro wrestling.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:20 am 
 

metroplex wrote:
I was a big fan back in the attitude era, then i grew up.


same here.
wikipedia says it has become "more family friendly" since that era. does that mean it's more for kids (like shows like Wipeout) or something? I mean...it was already popular when I was 12. how much more family friendly can it get? wrestling teletubbies?

came to this thread just to ask if there's been any good music since then? used to enjoy that stuff as a youngen ("Break It Down", "Blood", "My Time", "Break Down the Walls").
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Erotetic
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:26 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
WWE will always have a tougher time attracting pure MMA fans since pro-wrestling is scripted.


is it still as hokey as it used to be?

I mean, it's not just scripted, when I last saw it as a teen it was scripted like an '80s movie, cheesy as fuck.

I'm happy to watch Krav Maga tutorials on youtube, even though they're scripted. but I don't really wanna watch guys running back and forth bouncing off ropes and clotheslining each other like some bumbling 3 Stooges routine. -- is there actually any MMA in WWE or is it just Murkan wrestling + bad 80s movie bar fight antics?
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:32 am 
 

You already know what professional wrestling is, why ask the rhetorical question? And if you really don't know, just look it up on youtube. You either like it or you don't. Also there's no such thing as Murkan wrestling.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:30 am 
 

Wrestling always had a reputation for being for kids, regardless of how violent it can be at times. Back in 2004-2005, when WWE was still TV-14, many kids from 7th to 10th grade watched it. The blood the violence, the cursing and the Divas were some of the biggest draws. When you're a teenager, you like violence and boobs in your TV programming, and WWF/WWE from 1998 to 2007 filled that void in many teeanager lives.

WWE in the last years has been more family friendly in the sense that is has less cursing, blood has become way more rare and the crude plots are over. No more Katie Vick rape angles and Divas feudign over Playboy covers.

Yes, Subrick, the AE had a lot of shitty parts as well. The Austin vs. McMahon feud aged well, imo. But all of those 5 minute matches in the undercard? Bah. WWF's undercard in 1998 and for most of 1999 wasn't very good. Jericho, Angle and the Radicalz made it better. As did the rise of guys like Edge, Christian, the Hardyz and the Dudleys.

I think people romanticize the AE too much these days. I think it's partly just 90s nostalgia, which seems to be stronger than ever these days. I wonder if, by the turn of the decade, this 90s nostalgia will be over or go down significantly. I guess by then people will start missing the 2002-2007 WWE period and eventually... missing John Cena.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:30 am 
 

Erotetic wrote:
metroplex wrote:
I was a big fan back in the attitude era, then i grew up.


same here.

I like how it's "I grew up" when you don't watch wrestling anymore but you can still play video games and read novels about elves. Because that shit's high art.
Quote:
wikipedia says it has become "more family friendly" since that era. does that mean it's more for kids (like shows like Wipeout) or something? I mean...it was already popular when I was 12. how much more family friendly can it get? wrestling teletubbies?

It wasn't "family friendly" during the Attitude Era. The TV rating was TV-14, sometimes bordering on TV-MA, and there was an obvious focus on targeting the 18-34 demo instead of children. One of the biggest groups of the era, Degeneration X, incessantly used vulgar humor and a midcard mainstay by the name of Val Venis was presented as a porn star. It was the '90s, though, pre-Janet Jackson nipslip and pre-neocon, so these things were a bit more acceptable to let your kid watch than it is today.

The current product is TV-PG and has been for a few years now. It's also fairly shyte.
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came to this thread just to ask if there's been any good music since then? used to enjoy that stuff as a youngen ("Break It Down", "Blood", "My Time", "Break Down the Walls").

Youtube: show


Erotetic wrote:
InnesI wrote:
WWE will always have a tougher time attracting pure MMA fans since pro-wrestling is scripted.


is it still as hokey as it used to be?

I mean, it's not just scripted, when I last saw it as a teen it was scripted like an '80s movie, cheesy as fuck.

It's quite a bit hokier. The WWF/E way of doing things was always more over-the-top and grand compared to their competitors (AWA/NWA in the '80s, WCW/ECW in the '90s), so much so that NWA fans used to refer to the WWF as "that fake New York shit" (it certainly helped that most NWA World champions had legitimate shoot backgrounds), but a major trend over the last decade has been to focus on high spots (attention-getting moves that typically rely on gymnastics or plunder) over anything else. There was a brief shift on the independent scene in '02-'05 to incorporate more MMA into it, with the likes of LowKi/Samoa Joe/Bryan Danielson carrying that flag, but pro wrestling isn't sport. It's theater. Low-brow, often stupid, and usually laughable theater, but theater nonetheless.

With this in mind, there's a few "worked shoot" promotions worth checking out, but they're almost exclusively from Japan in the '90s. UWFi is the biggie, but RINGS (up to 1995) and BattlARTS also feature the heavy MMA flavor. They fell out of favor with audiences when actual MMA caught on, though, so pro wrestling decided to go in a different direction and focus on the theatrical drama over the "sport" feel.
Quote:
I'm happy to watch Krav Maga tutorials on youtube, even though they're scripted. but I don't really wanna watch guys running back and forth bouncing off ropes and clotheslining each other like some bumbling 3 Stooges routine. -- is there actually any MMA in WWE or is it just Murkan wrestling + bad 80s movie bar fight antics?

This chunk perfectly demonstrates why InnesI saying that it's easier to get a wrestling fan to check out MMA than it is vice versa is accurate. You don't watch a boxing match expecting a ball to get kicked into a net, so if the (lesser) outlandish elements of wrestling irk you then it's not for you. No harm, no foul.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:04 am 
 

People outgrow wrestling due to the whole social stigma of it "being fake" and also because of the eventual predictability and repetitiveness. My mother has watched about 5-6 WWE shows in her whole life, and by the 3rd-4th show she could predict heel managers distracting the refs, heels attacking the injured limb of a face after a few minutes of trash talking between both, etc.

What draws me to wrestling is primarily the over the top characters. As I got older, I began caring about ring work as well. But I'm not one of those people who only considers Benoit clones to be good wrestlers. I'd never demand chain wrestling out of the Big Show or Kane.

The reason AE was so popular was Russo's crash TV style. And the less focus on workrate. I mean, most people don't want to watch an endless technical bout between Samoa Joe and CM Punk. They want to watch cool charismatic characters and cool stunts. Even if it's fake, guys like Stone Cold and The Rock brought a sense of realism to it. One of the big problems with wrestling these days is how so many wrestlers look generic and their wrestling style just seems so telegraphed. As do their promos.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:01 am 
 

Erotetic wrote:
[
wikipedia says it has become "more family friendly" since that era. does that mean it's more for kids (like shows like Wipeout) or something? I mean...it was already popular when I was 12. how much more family friendly can it get? wrestling teletubbies?


It only means what content rating it gets. Basically how much blood, sex and swearing it contains. But wrestling was always popular with kids - but the main audience, throughout pretty much every era has been males 35-45 (or is it was 45-55 even).

Erotetic wrote:
InnesI wrote:
WWE will always have a tougher time attracting pure MMA fans since pro-wrestling is scripted.


is it still as hokey as it used to be?

I mean, it's not just scripted, when I last saw it as a teen it was scripted like an '80s movie, cheesy as fuck.


Unfortunately the big time wrestling in the US was always cheesy to some degree. It has changed alot since I first saw it (in 1992/93) but its still kind of stupid in many aspects. Thats why I gravitated towards Japanese pro-wrestling (puroresu) early on. While they have promotions doing weird cheesy stuff the main companies always had a more serious sporty kind of tone. AJPW was awesome in the 80's and early 90's. NJPW was great in the 90's. NOAH had some excellent years in the early 00's. For the last few years NJPW are back on track.

And then there was, as was mentioned above, RINGS and UWFi that did pro-wrestling in the style of (what would become) MMA. Probably as realistic as scripted pro-wrestling will get. And some pretty darn good stuff as well.

I could rarely stand the weekly shows, even when I was a much bigger fan. I always preferred good ring work. That's why I became a fan. Now I only watch the big shows and even then only the stuff I'm interested in.

Festivus wrote:
I think people romanticize the AE too much these days. I think it's partly just 90s nostalgia, which seems to be stronger than ever these days. I wonder if, by the turn of the decade, this 90s nostalgia will be over or go down significantly. I guess by then people will start missing the 2002-2007 WWE period and eventually... missing John Cena.


Yes, people like the nostalgia. Whenever I go back I think it doesn't hold up very well. Same with ECW. Much of it is horrible. But thats just it. Wrestling is made to work in the here and now. It is very much a temporary thing in many ways. Like what someone wrote above:

I'll give you a prime example of a specific match that just doesn't work anymore: Stone Cold vs. Triple H at No Mercy 1999. I'm sure at the time this was an incredibly fun brawl, but I watched this match again a week or so ago and it's literally every single trope of the Austin-era main event brawl stitched into one 20 minute long stretch. It goes through the motions of opening punching, crowd brawling, liberal use of steel chairs, run ins, and finisher trading, and none of it is really fun anymore.

Worked fantastic at the time. Now? Not so much.


Last edited by InnesI on Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:47 pm 
 

What's funny is, the IWC is never happy. Go watch a youtube video of a 2005 or 2006 promo and you'll see people commenting on "how great WWE was back then", but I recall people bitching so much about WWE in 2006. Hell, I once stumbled upon a big archive of Attitude Era online discussions and people HATED 2000 back then. And nowadays 2000 is considered to be one of the best years in WWE ever.
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metroplex
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:07 pm 
 

The Attitude era is objectively superior than today's era. It wasn't a perfect era, it had its flaws, but it can't be denied how greater than today's crap it is.

I dare anyone mention one thing superior from today's era. Characters, storylines, in-ring work, charisma, mic-work, hotter female wrestlers, ratings, commentators, ring announcers, anything.

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rexxz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:16 pm 
 

List the objective measures you can quantify to compare the Attitude Era to today's era and we'll see how right you are. Remember, objective measures (ie, none of the things you listed).
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:19 pm 
 

Re: ECW not aging well

Understatement of the thread. ECW stuff from the mid-90s has aged better than the stuff from later in their existence, but it still hasn't aged well in terms of rewatchable crazy hardcore brawls as, say, Cactus Jack vs. Triple H. The reason for that is that, in addition to generally being much more fun than the ECW matches, that match has a perfect story behind it. Same with Cactus vs. Randy Orton four years later. Hell, even Mick Foley vs. Edge at Wrestlemania has aged fairly well, and that match is just a string of hardcore match tropes glued together.

Re: Attitude Era is superior in every way

The in-ring work of today's product is so infinitely superior to everything in the Attitude Era that it's not even funny. I think that's a pretty fair, easy observation. A new generation that grew up watching Japanese strong style and WCW cruiserweight matches is the reason for that, plus WWE running with guys like Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Chris Benoit, and Eddie Guerrero as main eventers in the early 2000s.
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