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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:50 am 
 

The strangest thing about AEW is how much groupthink exists surrounding it. Double or Nothing was a pretty bad show, overall, complete with one of the dullest ladder matches I've ever seen in my quarter century of fandom, and the ME was everything I think is wrong with modern wrestling wrapped into one "match" that felt more Dungeon of Doom than anything else has in decades, yet it's being praised all over because it was funny.

People hated this shit when WWE did it with the Wyatts. Now, though, they're eating it up because...why? The jokes are bad, the "wrestling" is bad (Matt Hardy can barely fucking walk and has no business beating anybody at this stage)...oh, but they smiled because they're so desensitized to garbage after the last decade plus of western pro wrestling delivering some of the worst the industry has ever offered.

Fuck that. I'm sticking to my indies. At least David Starr knows how to work a headlock and sell a knee. At least Tom Lawlor can cut a promo and get heat.
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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 8798
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:48 am 
 

In terms of the cinematic matches that have been taking place since wrestling started doing empty arena shows, I thought the Stadium Stampede match was barrels of fun. I also really liked both of the cinematic matches at Wrestlemania. I didn't watch Money in the Bank because it looked like it was gonna be a giant clusterfuck, and all the reviews I've read of that match seem to confirm my suspicions.
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I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 1:36 pm 
 

I hate cinematic matches, though. I didn't even care for the Boiler Room Brawl back in the day. The beauty of pro wrestling, to me, has been how it's done in one take and, at best, based on a rough outline of what's going to happen. The moment it became scripted spot-for-spot is when its allure started to slip, and seeing it now being done more like a mini-movie reveals how bad at acting virtually all of the talent is.

I say "virtually" only because MJF exists. That man is going to be AEW's saving grace, if only because he's the rare talent on the roster who understands psychology. I'll tune in when he's champ.
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darkeningday wrote:
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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1504
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 2:46 pm 
 

For anyone into tape-trading we've seen these cinematic style matches before in IWA-Japan for example. Shopping mall brawl, bath house brawl etc. It wasn't fun then and it isnt fun now.

I get why some do like it but to me it's neither or. Its not good and funa ction as it could be in a movie and its not good or fun wrestling either. Its in a no mans land in between. Now I do think its the right thing to do in the era of no crowds for the comapnies that go for a more crazy presentation.

I'd have preffered for the small things to take a bigger place. Cut the in ring promos and do more sit downs (very effetive in MMA and Japan). Start focusing on a wrestling style that isn't so much based on temporary spots and crowd reaction (beacuase, you know, there aren't any to be had). I think this is a prime time to actually slow things down and put more focus into what is being presented.

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acid_bukkake
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 3:26 pm 
 

I've been saying for years, but the MMA flavor that was introduced by LowKi, Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, etc. during the indies boom should've been the template for the next generation. It kinda was, in a sense, as Roderick Strong and early Davey Richards utilized more dramatic cases of it, but we just went full-on into spot-spot-EPIC DRAMA that it seems so many talents forgot that the art of pro wrestling was in making the audience forget that it was fake. That's what "working" meant.

It's easy to forget, but Dusty Rhodes outdrew everybody but Hulk Hogan for the first half of the 80s because of how "real" he felt. His schtick was never 100% super serious, but it was grounded enough to where the more outrageous stuff wasn't as big a leap as the bulk of modern stuff.

Hell, the most successful PPV TNA/Impact ever put on is still LockDown 2008, mained by a pseudo-MMA match between Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe that built gradually from a very Pancrase-flavored first act to the standard "epic" finale, but it all mattered because that early realism laid the groundwork for gradual leaps in the suspension of disbelief.

And they wonder why ratings and live attendance were dropping even before COVID.
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Earthcubed wrote:
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darkeningday wrote:
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HeathenHordes
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Posts: 82
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:42 am 
 

acid_bukkake wrote:
I've been saying for years, but the MMA flavor that was introduced by LowKi, Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, etc. during the indies boom should've been the template for the next generation.


Agreed. I still watch WWE but it's more just to keep up to date with it as I've been watching for 22 years. I do like AEW and NJPW but I find myself having it on the background more and more.

Going back to your point, I only really get interested these days when certain wrestlers are on the screen. Shaynor Bayzler being the main one. Sonia Deville also. I find the womens division of WWE quite a hard watch but these two work for me.
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HeathenHordes
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Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 12:20 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:12 am 
 

The above being said, am I the only one enjoying The Viking Prophet's? It's so silly it's funny! Akita Tozawa, king of performance centre ninjas!
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Terri23
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2562
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:10 am 
 

I really want to like AEW, but it is so fucking stupid. I can't stand any of The Elite. Kenny Omega seems to think he's a man of rennaisance, but when he speaks he just comes across like such a fucking moron. The Young Bucks seems like they honestly believe they are the worlds best tag team, which must have been a name they gave themselves. They don't sell anything, and they seem to believe that wrestling is about high spots for the sake of it rather than telling a story.
As acid_bukake said, there is such a circle jerk about AEW. It was sold to us as a genuine alternative to WWE, which we've needed for 20 years. The problem with it is that it's in many ways somehow even more ridiculous than WWE. As far as I can work out, instead of having the WWE writers come up with stupid shit, the AEW wrestlers instead are coming up with their own stupid shit. That recent stadium match at Double or Nothing was fucking painful to watch. Chris Jericho has long been one of my favourite wrestlers, but even the shit he's coming up with is cringe inducing.
Something worth mentioning is that AEW has not cracked any other market other than guys who dig certain quarters of wrestling. In other words, the guys already watching Kenny Omega, Chris Jericho and Orange Cassidy. The fans who have walked away from WWE over the past 20 years are still out there, but they're not tuning into AEW.
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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 8798
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:19 pm 
 

So someone in WWE tested positive for Covid after last week's TV tapings, and aside from cancelling/postponing tonight's TV taping to test people, WWE are gonna go along with business as usual. It's since come out that the majority of WWE personnel have not been tested for Covid a single time, and that it was a WWE mandate that no one in the crowd was allowed to wear a mask at Raw last night.

WWE can eat a dick. Shouldn't expect any different since Vince is butt buddies with Trump.
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Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

Blacksoul Seraphim Gothic Doom Metal
Autumn's Ashes Melodic Death/Doom Metal

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Terri23
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2562
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:07 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
So someone in WWE tested positive for Covid after last week's TV tapings, and aside from cancelling/postponing tonight's TV taping to test people, WWE are gonna go along with business as usual. It's since come out that the majority of WWE personnel have not been tested for Covid a single time, and that it was a WWE mandate that no one in the crowd was allowed to wear a mask at Raw last night.

WWE can eat a dick. Shouldn't expect any different since Vince is butt buddies with Trump.


Does the term Over the Edge mean anything to you?
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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Terri23
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2562
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:29 am 
 

Terri23 wrote:
Subrick wrote:
So someone in WWE tested positive for Covid after last week's TV tapings, and aside from cancelling/postponing tonight's TV taping to test people, WWE are gonna go along with business as usual. It's since come out that the majority of WWE personnel have not been tested for Covid a single time, and that it was a WWE mandate that no one in the crowd was allowed to wear a mask at Raw last night.

WWE can eat a dick. Shouldn't expect any different since Vince is butt buddies with Trump.


Does the term Over the Edge mean anything to you?


You've been on this board, but haven't replied, so I'll jog your memory. I was referring to the PPV where Owen Hart died. Vince decided the show must go on. You literally had WWF wrestlers coming out to their ring entrances in tears.

It doesn't fit with the narrative, but the WWE vs Coronavirus thing is misguided. AEW has more or less stayed open, and I don't see any criticism thrown their direction. Moreso, in any particular circumstance, Vince will demand the show continue. If anything would have stopped the show, it would have been the death of one of his own stars during the show.
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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HeathenHordes
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Posts: 82
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:26 pm 
 

Terri23 wrote:
AEW has more or less stayed open, and I don't see any criticism thrown their direction. Moreso, in any particular circumstance, Vince will demand the show continue. If anything would have stopped the show, it would have been the death of one of his own stars during the show.


I think because TK at AEW has been very supportive publically of wrestlers who want to stay away people have taken a kinder view, but as you say in truth AEW and WWE have both just carried on regardless. Vince is just so easy to hate!
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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
Posts: 1615
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:56 pm 
 

Sooooooo...@ExposeWrestling has been sharing accounts of a metric shitton of indie/UK wrestlers being more than inappropriate throughout the past few years. Most have a lot of merit (David Starr's career is practically over because of how he treated an ex, lot of allegations against Marty Scurll and Wolfgang for going after underage girls), including chatter about Jim Cornette and his wife, but some are questionable at best (like how a woman that Matt Riddle had to file a restraining order against for stalking is claiming he raped her while driving).
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Earthcubed wrote:
Rage tweeting and dank memes are not essential public services.

darkeningday wrote:
I haven't saw any of the Seen movies.

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HeathenHordes
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Posts: 82
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:03 pm 
 

acid_bukkake wrote:
Sooooooo...@ExposeWrestling has been sharing accounts of a metric shitton of indie/UK wrestlers being more than inappropriate throughout the past few years. Most have a lot of merit (David Starr's career is practically over because of how he treated an ex, lot of allegations against Marty Scurll and Wolfgang for going after underage girls), including chatter about Jim Cornette and his wife, but some are questionable at best (like how a woman that Matt Riddle had to file a restraining order against for stalking is claiming he raped her while driving).


I saw a brief news piece on Cultaholic. Apparently Jordan Devlin has had accusations against him, and David Starr has had several! It's strange how all these things seem to come out at once. I know there will be a lot of genuine cases but there will be fakes too.
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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 8798
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:51 pm 
 

David Starr was the first one to get accused, actually, and he pretty much admitted to them in an Aziz Ansari "I'm sorry you feel like this, and here's why you should feel sympathy for me during this time" way. That opened the floodgates to like 50 different wrestling personalities getting accused of sexual misconduct, most of them from the British scene.
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Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

Blacksoul Seraphim Gothic Doom Metal
Autumn's Ashes Melodic Death/Doom Metal

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Terri23
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2562
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:41 pm 
 

I've seen this list. There are some really odd names on this list. Is it all people accused of sexual assault?
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 8798
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:49 pm 
 

Sexual assault, sexual misconduct, general harassment and abuse, etc. Already Progress have cut ties with a ton of people that were accused of doing bad shit, AEW put Jimmy Havoc in rehab, Dave Lagana resigned as the co-president of NWA, who are suspending all operations immediately (and this might be the death knell for NWA since he was essentially running the promotion day-to-day since the beginning of the Corgan era), and WWE straight up fired Jack Gallagher.
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Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

Blacksoul Seraphim Gothic Doom Metal
Autumn's Ashes Melodic Death/Doom Metal

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HeathenHordes
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Posts: 82
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:57 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Sexual assault, sexual misconduct, general harassment and abuse, etc. Already Progress have cut ties with a ton of people that were accused of doing bad shit, AEW put Jimmy Havoc in rehab, Dave Lagana resigned as the co-president of NWA, who are suspending all operations immediately (and this might be the death knell for NWA since he was essentially running the promotion day-to-day since the beginning of the Corgan era), and WWE straight up fired Jack Gallagher.


What have Jimmy Havoc and jack Gallagher been accused of?
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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:41 am 
 

Vince Russo is on that list. While he deserves to be listed for crimes against wrestling, the guy is devout religious family man. What's he supposed to have done?

Jim Cornette has come out denouncing the accusations made against his wife.
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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HeathenHordes
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 12:20 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:32 am 
 

Joey Ryan. Who would have thought it? *rolls eyes*
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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
Posts: 1615
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:00 am 
 

Jimmy Havoc is a known alcoholic with a litany of mental health issues. He's on the list because an ex brought up all of the mental and emotional abuse she suffered under him, usually whilst drunk. No mention of physical or sexual abuse on him, and, IIRC, she outright said he never laid a hand on her inappropriately. That's why he's getting rehab.

Gallagher has been accused, and the story corroborated, of intentionally feeding women alcohol and trying to force himself upon them while younger.

Russo...you can't use the "he's religious" argument when, even after becoming a Born Again, he still pulled all his usual tricks backstage and in the writers room. He's an ass through and through.
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Earthcubed wrote:
Rage tweeting and dank memes are not essential public services.

darkeningday wrote:
I haven't saw any of the Seen movies.

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Terri23
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:55 am 
 

I'm not using anything to defend Russo. Everyone knows he's an ass. I'm not a fan of Russo at all, but I can't imagine him putting himself into a situation where he could end up being accused of sexual assault.

Conversely, I generally like Cornette. He gets plenty of criticism, some of it valid. Again though, I do find it hard to believe he would put himself in such a situation. However, I know very little about Stacey, and from what I read, she seems to be the main source of the accusations thrown Cornettes way.

Edit - I've spent the last hour listening to a podcast discussing this, with a large segment dedicated to Cornette, and I'm starting to believe I might be wrong about what I discussed with regards to Cornette.
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1504
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:22 am 
 

Terri23 wrote:
Conversely, I generally like Cornette. He gets plenty of criticism, some of it valid. Again though, I do find it hard to believe he would put himself in such a situation. However, I know very little about Stacey, and from what I read, she seems to be the main source of the accusations thrown Cornettes way.

Edit - I've spent the last hour listening to a podcast discussing this, with a large segment dedicated to Cornette, and I'm starting to believe I might be wrong about what I discussed with regards to Cornette.


Even when I agree with Cornette he often comes off as a nutcase. A man who can't control his feelings and has no sympathy for whoever might think otherwise than him. I often tend to ean his way when it comes to views on wrestling but the way he puts down others is quite revolting (not every day is a wrestling promo). I don't know what he's accused of in this instant but I always saw him as a loose cannon - as someone who couldn't quite control himself.

On the whole thing in general, the wrestling business is filled with questionable behaviour so I'm not surprised about this. However, just like the #metoo-movement it will be hard to actually prove anything and we shouldn't judge people based on accusations alone. We've seen how that backfired in many cases a couple of years ago. It's sad because that means some guilty men won't see the consequencs but at least no one innocent will be judged.

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Terri23
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2562
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:35 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
Terri23 wrote:
Conversely, I generally like Cornette. He gets plenty of criticism, some of it valid. Again though, I do find it hard to believe he would put himself in such a situation. However, I know very little about Stacey, and from what I read, she seems to be the main source of the accusations thrown Cornettes way.

Edit - I've spent the last hour listening to a podcast discussing this, with a large segment dedicated to Cornette, and I'm starting to believe I might be wrong about what I discussed with regards to Cornette.


Even when I agree with Cornette he often comes off as a nutcase. A man who can't control his feelings and has no sympathy for whoever might think otherwise than him. I often tend to ean his way when it comes to views on wrestling but the way he puts down others is quite revolting (not every day is a wrestling promo). I don't know what he's accused of in this instant but I always saw him as a loose cannon - as someone who couldn't quite control himself.

On the whole thing in general, the wrestling business is filled with questionable behaviour so I'm not surprised about this. However, just like the #metoo-movement it will be hard to actually prove anything and we shouldn't judge people based on accusations alone. We've seen how that backfired in many cases a couple of years ago. It's sad because that means some guilty men won't see the consequencs but at least no one innocent will be judged.


He's effectively being accused of using his position within a variety of wrestling organisations to coerce talent to join him and his wife.
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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Terri23
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:49 pm 
 

The Undertaker appears to have officially retired. Colour me sceptical, but I do believe we will see him in the ring again. It'll likely be something like Saudi Arabia, or some other money spinner ppv.
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metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

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