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iAm
Wastelander

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:30 pm 
 

Obvious bait is obvious. :nono:
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awheio
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:37 am 
 

Metantoine wrote:
Quote:
his duel with Obi-Wan is as stiff and non-frilly as can be

This was because of the limitations of the cinema at the time (the lightsabers were very fragile, Alec Guiness was old as fuck etc etc...), not because Vader wasn't a badass. It makes total sense to have him be a total killing machine, General Grievous was one after all and he's even more robotic than Vader. Who cares if it doesn't make sense because he didn't do that in a movie that came out 40 years ago. He was always a badass in the comics, videogames and other Star Wars thingies. This is a very poor argument.

"eh, let's include a small sequence where Vader completely obliterates some shitty rebel soldiers since he's a very powerful sith lord!"
"no no, remember his battle in ANH? He was STIFF!"


I have had a different take on this ever since seeing RO, but I seem to be alone on it, and maybe it doesn't make much sense. I thought that basically the Vader of RO (in universe) had to be stiff and unimpressive because Obi Wan was just that good -- attempting anything frilly was risky, opening the potential for Obi Wan to beat him again. I mean, perhaps he would be especially cautious because he'd lost before. So, when two exceptional fighters meet, we don't get constant flips and shit, because they expose people pretty easily. Instead, we get extremely careful, subdued stuff. A lot of top boxing matches play out like this: people adopt defensive stances, and step in for a jab to feel things out, step back, wait, etc...

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Metantoine
Big Beautiful Frenchman

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:52 am 
 

That's a pretty good view on the scene, awheio but it seems like the plot of Rogue One itself! AKA a whole movie to explain a plot hole hahaha.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:01 am 
 

Have you guys ever seen two 8th dan kendoka fight?

It's "boring" as fuck, haha. Neither is moving much, they typically just stand there, pressuring their opponent with nothing but their presence and their stance, waiting for (not really waiting, more like trying to create) the opening. It's boring for non-kendo aficionados, but really interesting to watch for those who are experienced with it.

Now the ANH duel isn't that cool sadly, but I think in theory something like that could really work as an interesting duel. I'd love to see it in TV/movies some day. But I'm not holding my breath, everyone wants to see flashy nonsense. :(
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:25 am 
 

Hmm, I dunno, isn't like 90% of Dragonball Z just two badasses staring at one another with their hair all blown upwards, relatively motionless, internally assessing one another's power levels and not actually fighting? Lots of people watched that boring crap! I'd be interested in watching similar conflicts done in a less lame way.
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Grave_Wyrm
Metal Sloth

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Location: FML States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:45 am 
 

Ogami Ito doesn't move, either. He just glowers, empty and solemn, a desolate and barren canyon. And then lays ultimate, flawless waste. That level of kendo actually sounds really tense and awesome to me. I'd love to see that.

I hated Yoda flipping around, by the way. God I hate those movies so much. Why he ever had a lightsaber is beyond me. Yoda would never attack. He would be the Morihei Ueshiba of the Force, and he would own.
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awheio
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:35 am 
 

Yeah, the butchering of Yoda's character in the prequels is unfathomable in its magnitude.

But yeah, okay -- that's probably how I'll continue to think about the ANH duel then. It makes it pretty interesting.

Entertainment always does such a preposterously shitty job handling combat, and it's starting to really get to me. I know relatively little about sword-fighting, but it's easy to see that characters in movies never behave in ways actual sword-fighters would. The closest I've seen was probably The Hound vs. Brienne in Game of Thrones, which was pretty terrific. The SW prequels had so much god damned "Okay, let's both swing on this side! Then this side! Try spinning, that's a good trick!"

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kalervon
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:59 pm 
 

About everyone dying at the end of RO: someone said, that took balls (for Disney); someone else said, the fact that we don't care about them dying is a testimony to their dull characters.

I disagree with both. I did, also, not care so much about them dying, but I think the reason why is that they weren't killed by anyone. Ok, the kung fu master died of an anonymous Stromtrooper shoot, that's got to hurt, but then again he was blind so it makes it not so bad. His buddy, whom I think is a Latin dude, not Asian as some people said, dies while in a fit of rage, also heroically.

If any of the heroes (the girl or the guy, don't remember their names) had died from a Stormtrooper shot or were killed by that engineer dressed in white (forgot his name), that would have hurt.

But they die of.. the Death Star. The Death Star is like a volcano, an earthquake, a tsunami (actually, all of these at once). Being disintegrated because your planet explodes is not normal dying. It's almost like being transported to a new dimension.

However, what RO did is make me appreciate TFA even less. In TFA they have the Starkiller. Yet all it is shown to do is kill people sitting on a balcony.

RO takes us on the planets destroyed by the Death Star, so we get an in depth feeling of its sheer terror (the original Star Wars movie's explosion of Alderaan was quite impersonal too, from its vantage point). TFA has a Starkiller and it doesn't even try to let us fathom what it means to wipe away a whole solar system. It's a stupid Balconykiller.
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awheio
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:51 pm 
 

I still contend that the viewer should see things as Empire vs. Rebels in terms of character drama. The team is one person, part of the rebellion, and that person was killed by the Empire.

I think that's important for thematic reasons as well as dramatic reasons. Thematically, we are being shown that in war, entire contingents can be killed -- even though their work lives on, and their sacrifice pays off. The rebellion won by virtue of great sacrifices, great luck, courage, death, freak accident -- and the force. If anyone had lived, it just wouldn't be the same -- or the right -- message. Little people are all wiped away to irrelevance by the war -- but their contributions live on in something larger.

And also, yeah, great points about the intimacy of the planetary destruction. And this is another point, but in TFA jeez I was taken out of things by seeing like 5 planets visibly close to one another in near-perfect alignment. It is hard to see the next planet from one point of view. To have five visible from a single point of view means that each one is extremely close to the other. And then to have them aligned like that... Not only should that be pretty damn rare, but I'd think it would have bizarre gravitational effects and would overall be a pretty unstable orbit. Star Wars of course never took gravity very seriously, but sci-fi and fantasy are fun by modifying within parameters. If all parameters are abandoned, everything that happens is simply random.

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kalervon
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:50 am 
 

Is RO the first production since Walt Disney acquired Lucasfilm that acknowledges the prequels, by casting Jimmy Smits as Bail Oregana? I haven't watched any of the "Rebels" episodes..

I harboured a theory that WD would eventually, after finishing their sequel trilogy and Anthology series, declare the prequels "non-canon" and redo them. I guess it's even more unlikely now.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:44 am 
 

kalervon wrote:
His buddy, whom I think is a Latin dude, not Asian as some people said, dies while in a fit of rage, also heroically.


The actor is Jiang Wen, who is Chinese.

Just as how Disney has kept/borrowed some EU stuff for the new episodes, it wouldn't bother me at all if they kept certain non-garbage parts of the sequels. I doubt they'll completely re-do them, since even though they were awful I think most Star Wars fans would find that going a bit too far. More one-off side movies set during the prequels to try to redeem that part of the timeline would be welcome, though.
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StainedClass95
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:47 am 
 

kalervon wrote:
Ok, the kung fu master died of an anonymous Stromtrooper shoot, that's got to hurt, but then again he was blind so it makes it not so bad.



Why does someone being blind make their death not as bad? That's a bit of odd statement to make and then not explain it whatsoever.

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kalervon
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:04 am 
 

Ok, where do I start.. let's not take any chances:

-it's a movie, filmed with actors who don't actually die during the movie (most of the time, unless it's that guy from The Crow)
-when this movie starts, we don't know any of them. And most of us have seen the movies that are set in a later timeframe than this one and know very well that none of them re-appear
-we also know that by now, Disney controls Lucasfilms, so George Lucas is not likely to release a new version of the OT with added characters from RO. It would also be quite a stretch to make them appear in post TFA movies
-so whether or not they die, we know we won't see them again
-this character is blind, from the start, so each step he makes on this forsaken dangerous planet is extremely risky, it's a wonder he survives any second from the movie and we know his time is limited
-yes, he has some knowledge of the force, and his other "senses" are more alert than those of most people because he grew up without sight, but unless you're in the sequels universe, knowledge of the force doesn't make anyone invincible, Matrix-style, to laser beams and bullets. I mean, Luke Skywalker used to run away from Stormtroopers rather than just stand there doing his business and avoiding bullets with the force alone
-so after he performs the heroic act of plugging the only cable needed in this otherwise wireless transmission system, and succombs to one of a million shots, we feel he accomplished a lot and his time on the screen was not in vain

Similarly, I explained why we didn't care so much when all these other people died. You picked on the blind person. Let me know if you find anything else I said which is equally controversial.
---

Another surprising feature of this Disney-era movie is that it re-uses a character from The Clone Wars animated series. I would have thought, if anything introduced in any animated series ever makes it to the big screen, it will be from Rebels. Rebels is much closer in time to the OT and therefore to RO; Clone Wars happen between sequel #2 and #3. Plus, Rebels was made during the Disney era.
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Thiestru
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:44 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
The actor is Jiang Wen, who is Chinese.


After I read about Donnie Yen, not Jiang Wen, I saw that he was in a biopic called Ip Man. I gave it a watch, and I highly recommend it to everyone. Very cool movie.
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Last edited by Thiestru on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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chaossphere
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:28 pm 
 

Thiestru wrote:
[

After I read about Jiang Wen, I saw that he was in a biopic called Ip Man. I gave it a watch, and I highly recommend it to everyone. Very cool movie.


The Ip Man sequels are also good. Although I still need to see the third one, which has him facing off against Mike Tyson :lol:

I also see Jiang Wen was the lead in Warriors Of Heaven And Earth, which has been sitting in my watchpile for quite a number of years now. Might have to actually give it it a shot haha.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:21 am 
 

Donnie Yen, who was the blind guy with the staff, is Ip Man. Jiang Wen, who was the guy with the big machinegun blaster and who is a different Chinese person from Donnie Yen, who is Ip Man, is not Donnie Yen.
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aloof
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:18 pm 
 

the title for episode VIII was just announced: "The Last Jedi".

http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/23/14357 ... -announced
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chaossphere
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:48 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Donnie Yen, who was the blind guy with the staff, is Ip Man. Jiang Wen, who was the guy with the big machinegun blaster and who is a different Chinese person from Donnie Yen, who is Ip Man, is not Donnie Yen.


Ohmigod it's Jackie Chan!
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Thiestru
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:59 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Donnie Yen, who was the blind guy with the staff, is Ip Man. Jiang Wen, who was the guy with the big machinegun blaster and who is a different Chinese person from Donnie Yen, who is Ip Man, is not Donnie Yen.


*smacks forehead* Yeah, you're right. Thanks for the correction! Time for an edit.
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volutetheswarth
Our Lady of Perpetual Butthurt

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:41 pm 
 

Far too much thread so I'll just give my thoughts.

So I enjoyed the movie, I wasn't expecting really insightful characters (that's never been a Star Wars thing), what I wanted was a fun/playful action sci-fi movie that wasn't idiotic in it's delivery, where the action was coherent and geography was sound, and I got it. It also provided plenty more new/different refreshing things than TFA. However CGI Grand Moff Tarkin was completely distracting and took me out of the movie. Just an incredibly poor decision to include him (if you MUST show him then show from the back or in a dark shadow like the Emperor).

Darth Vader was way more than enough fan service so I don't know why they had to include him - plenty of ways to incorporate him offscreen/plenty of ways to hide him in shadows, other than he is Snoke and Disney/JJ/studioheads made it abundantly clear Gareth Edwards must include him. But that's just a speculative theory, makes some marginal amount of sense to me at least.

It was weird how Disney/whoever removed that "I rebel" bit of dialogue. Like holy shit they tailed out that easily?
Morrigan wrote:
The Asian duo was cool too and had good chemistry.

They were my favourite characters, and Riz Ahmed was great too, I like how fearless and unwavering the blind guy is towards criticism and lampooning of his force belief, it was a great heartfelt message that you should believe/follow and like whatever you like without feeling you have to abide/kowtow by/to others. And he had the funniest line with "are you kidding me? I'M BLIND".

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kalervon
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:28 pm 
 

volutetheswarth wrote:
Darth Vader was way more than enough fan service so I don't know why they had to include him - plenty of ways to incorporate him offscreen/plenty of ways to hide him in shadows
Did you see the Star Wars movie made in 1977 ? Maybe it would help understanding.
voluttheswarth wrote:
he is Snoke
I think you definitely should watch some of the Star Wars movies that came out in the 70s and 80s. You're in for a treat; those are great movies.
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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:57 pm 
 

I've seen them. Not sure if you're trolling so I'll leave it at that.

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StainedClass95
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:29 am 
 

I think what he's getting at is that Darth Vader plays a big role in New Hope, he's one of the first major characters to be introduced, so it makes sense that he'd show up in the film that takes place immediately before.

Personally, I think Vader and Tarkin are pretty cool characters, so as long as it's logical I'm all for having them in a Star Wars film.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:08 am 
 

I think he means Tarkin when he said "include him", FWIW

Not sure where the Snoke nonsense is coming from
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awheio
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:40 am 
 

Well, there are theories that Snoke is, say, inside the reanimated body of Vader, or something similar. And this person's suggestion is that if they want to have Vader be THAT important in the new trilogy, they might build up hype by forcing people to make him central in movies like Rogue One...

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kalervon
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:40 am 
 

volutetheswarth wrote:
I've seen them. Not sure if you're trolling so I'll leave it at that.
You could have left it at "far too much thread".

Morrigan; I thought of that, but that would also mean that the "he" in his "he is Snoke" would refer to Tarkin.

StainedClass95: if that were the case, he wouldn't have said "I don't know why they had to include him"; unless he refers to Tarkin by he (and by the same token that Tarkin is Snoke).

awheio: The novelization of TFA - which is canon - sets Snoke is in a way that he can't be Tarkin or Vader.

I think he has more in common with Hellraiser.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:30 pm 
 

Watched the movie a few days ago. Basically was everything I wished The Force Awakens to be. Of course it isn't on par with the classic trilogy, it's a given, but it quite comfortably beats all four movies since in being the best Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi. I'm not a film student and can't give you theory and technical jargon, but I felt it was simply good. Yeah, the characters weren't amazing and there were flaws, but everything was a number of levels above the prequels and even more so above Episode VII. The dialogue didn't feel forced, the scenes not rushed, the story flowed, it switched between dialogue scenes and action scenes fluently without being choppy, the whole thing was just pleasant to watch. The Force Awakens was just stressful to watch, everything felt rush, actors always felt like they were in a hurry to finish their lines and every scene felt like the director kept shouting "quick, quick, let's get this over with", while Rogue One was the opposite, it felt like a real movie, I enjoyed watching it from start to end, every bit of it.

And someone like bitterman would probably be apt to use his "focus group" analogy here referring to the two Asian characters, like they were both created with the intent of putting everything today's generation thinks is "cool" into the characters, but what can I say, for me it definitely worked. They're easily my favourites of the movie. "Are you kidding me? I am blind!" To a lesser degree the same can be said about the droid character, trying very hard to be "cool", but unlike the four Star Wars movies before, actually succeeding in that, lines trying hard to be funny and actually ending up being exactly that, something the sequels and TFA so awfully failed at. Add to that a story that actually made some fucking sense for a fucking change and the whole thing was just a great movie experience. As I said before, it's not Episode IV-VI, but fuck it's the first thing that actually comes close, that actually is worth watching for more than morbid loyal nerd loyalty reasons, something that's just - who would have expected - a really good movie. Not just pleasantly surprised but pleased beyond mere surprise.
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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:29 pm 
 

kalervon wrote:
volutetheswarth wrote:
I've seen them. Not sure if you're trolling so I'll leave it at that.
You could have left it at "far too much thread".
Ah, so you're just a pathetic pompous wanker. Good to note, kalervon.

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volutetheswarth
Our Lady of Perpetual Butthurt

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:55 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Add to that a story that actually made some fucking sense for a fucking change and the whole thing was just a great movie experience. As I said before, it's not Episode IV-VI, but fuck it's the first thing that actually comes close, that actually is worth watching for more than morbid loyal nerd loyalty reasons, something that's just - who would have expected - a really good movie. Not just pleasantly surprised but pleased beyond mere surprise.
Really polarizing mixed opinions on this movie. It's weird you'd throw in it's worth more than 'nerd loyalty reasons' when A LOT of detractors having been saying it's exactly that, that Tarkin and Vader, Leia, C3P0, angry bar guy and his friend (oh feel the nerdo rage flow through kalveron), tie-fighters, x-wings, stormtroopers, are all the same "member berries" and absolutely nothing more. Which they refer to as dangling keys in front of a baby for 130 minutes.

Sans one or two of these things, they're integral to the very fabric of Rogue One and can't be done differently. What did they honestly expect or is this just old man cynicism that's to be expected with new Star Wars stories? How can there be nothing related to A New Hope despite their obvious linkage? Even the non-canon stuff could still be labelled member berries and a reboot/rehash of one of the previous movies, each character some similarity to one before.

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:17 pm 
 

I can't be the only person who understood that volutetheswarth meant Tarkin played a kind of Snoke-like role as the creepy overlord overseeing everything, and that the studio execs decided they needed a Snoke-like character. I mean, I don't even care, I liked having him in there and thought it made sense story-wise and also couldn't tell it was CGI either, but I think you're all talking past each other about his comment.
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awheio
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:52 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
I can't be the only person who understood that volutetheswarth meant Tarkin played a kind of Snoke-like role as the creepy overlord overseeing everything, and that the studio execs decided they needed a Snoke-like character. I mean, I don't even care, I liked having him in there and thought it made sense story-wise and also couldn't tell it was CGI either, but I think you're all talking past each other about his comment.


Quote:
Darth Vader was way more than enough fan service so I don't know why they had to include him - plenty of ways to incorporate him offscreen/plenty of ways to hide him in shadows, other than he is Snoke and Disney/JJ/studioheads made it abundantly clear Gareth Edwards must include him. But that's just a speculative theory, makes some marginal amount of sense to me at least.


Darth Vader = him, "other than" sets up the scenario in which Vader is Snoke and Disney et al. insisted he be included -- to tie the films together. That is indeed a common speculative theory.

To the person who said that in the novelization Snoke is clearly (conclusively?) not Vader nor in Vader's body... how? I'm just curious, and haven't come across such information before. To me, the biggest problem is that Snoke seems to have to organic hands. Nobody mentions that. But his facial scarring does seem really designed to fuck with us in this regard.

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volutetheswarth
Our Lady of Perpetual Butthurt

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:54 pm 
 

I was just speculating and throwing out a theory, granted unsubstantiated, but it's not like I said Snoke was Jar Jar, Darth Maul or Mace Windu or something equally preposterous, but apparently that's not allowed and subject to trolling by some condescending nerd twat because it's not mentioned in some novelization.

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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3602
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:10 pm 
 

now I'm just confused so I'll go back to my pokemons
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iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

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kalervon
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 732
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:58 am 
 

awheio wrote:
To the person who said that in the novelization Snoke is clearly (conclusively?) not Vader nor in Vader's body... how? I'm just curious, and haven't come across such information before.
I don't read Star Wars novels, but I prefer reading summaries of canon Star Wars novel and movie scripts online to reading fan speculation theories online. There's also just so many minutes of children-oriented animated series (Clone Wars, Rebels) one can endure. There are so many plot holes rendered by the stitching of several movies made during different circumstances that I find this almost necessary in order to enjoy the new movies, whether they be from the new trilogy or anthology series.
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