Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1081
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:45 am 
 

RichardDeBenthall wrote:
I think we would be foolish to suggest that Science has explained everything.

^^This is what I was responding to. No one said science has explained everything, yet this makes it sound like you're writing off science for not explaining everything. I was explaining that science doesn't have to have already explained everything, it just provides guidance on how one might go about investigating claims.

RichardDeBenthall wrote:
I take your point about the difference between skepticism and cynicism. Other than that your points hardly refute my argument? I'm not saying that Occult practice is definitely true or definitely false, merely that it'd be foolish to write off every esoteric practice you come across on the basis that it doesn't chime with modern Scientific opinion etc.

Again, the burden of proof falls on the party making the claim. So no one's writing anything off, I don't think; they are just saying that the people saying "magic is real" are the ones on whom the burden of proof falls, and therefore they are the ones who would have to back up their assertion with evidence if they want other people to take them seriously.

I am not going to lend credence to every wacky belief and superpower people think they have just because they claim they have them. The evidence for having superpowers needs to come first.
_________________
CircleOfDestruction zine #18|Video-Nasties.net | My Art Site

Top
 Profile  
RichardDeBenthall
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:46 am
Posts: 300
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:56 am 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
RichardDeBenthall wrote:
I think we would be foolish to suggest that Science has explained everything.

^^This is what I was responding to. No one said science has explained everything, yet this makes it sound like you're writing off science for not explaining everything. I was explaining that science doesn't have to have already explained everything, it just provides guidance on how one might go about investigating claims.

RichardDeBenthall wrote:
I take your point about the difference between skepticism and cynicism. Other than that your points hardly refute my argument? I'm not saying that Occult practice is definitely true or definitely false, merely that it'd be foolish to write off every esoteric practice you come across on the basis that it doesn't chime with modern Scientific opinion etc.

Again, the burden of proof falls on the party making the claim. So no one's writing anything off, I don't think; they are just saying that the people saying "magic is real" are the ones on whom the burden of proof falls, and therefore they are the ones who would have to back up their assertion with evidence if they want other people to take them seriously.

I am not going to lend credence to every wacky belief and superpower people think they have just because they claim they have them. The evidence for having superpowers needs to come first.


^^^ Totally agree with the above! I've dabbled and I've seen some strange things before but nothing that I don't think someone with a better knowledge of any number of scientific disciplines could explain with logic. As much as I find the occult fascinating I've always disliked those who act like their scattered experiences are any replacement for a scientific study!

Top
 Profile  
Warty_basaloid
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:32 am
Posts: 366
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:49 pm 
 

Of course magic is real, if you think it's not then you probably expect too much from magic.

I've produced plenty of sex magic in my time, for example! As I'm a gentleman I can't provide solid evidence for that online, I'm afraid.

Top
 Profile  
GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
Posts: 855
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:49 pm 
 

RichardDeBenthall wrote:
Quote:
I think a lot of Occult practitioners haven't read enough history to approach practice of the Occult in a relatively unbiased manner. Having said that, I think we would be fools to suggest that Science has explained everything. After all, the Science of today was the Magick of yesterday and ergo the Magick of today is the Science of tomorrow. It isn't mutually exclusive.


...what?

Science-y things today would have been interpreted as "magic" a hundred years ago, but only through incomplete understanding. That does not mean that things interpreted as "magic" today will be accepted as science tomorrow.

I think you pretty well summed up occult thinking right there.
_________________
Metalheads never get old. We just become legendary.

Top
 Profile  
caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
Posts: 6688
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:10 am 
 

Man I was right into Golden Dawn stuff for quite a while. Read a lot of McArthurs, Regardie, a lot of Dion Fortune. The big authors mostly, but I was right into em. Never found Crowley all that worthwhile. I still find the Kabbalah to be a pretty fascinating, deep document that's well worth getting into, and I've probably subconsciously intergrated a whole lot of Fortune's thoughts on the matter into my belief system whether I admit it or not.

That said I gave it up maybe 6 years ago and have been happily christian-ing it up all over again. I've found that a lot more rewarding, I tend to view traditional christian thought- Augustine, Mennon, Luther etc as being both too rational for full on mysticism, but also far too mystical for full on rationalism. This sits with me pretty well as I've never found pure rationalism to be a particularly convincing/rewarding thing, but from experience a lot of the Golden Dawn stuff comes down to fairly traditional religion with a few really woo-ish Harry Potter elements added to it in the hope people find it interesting.

Anyway, I have no problem with those who says it's bullshit- it's pretty hard to argue against, honestly. I tend to simply say that an otherworldly experience may not be a double-blind peer reviewed journal thingo, but it's hard, and possibly rather silly to convince yourself that things you have seen/heard/felt/etc aren't true.
_________________
https://strangercountry.bandcamp.com/al ... the-chebar new album! Power shoegaze? Dream-doom???

Top
 Profile  
Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 1255
Location: Crippling Velocity
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:14 am 
 

caspian wrote:
I tend to simply say that an otherworldly experience may not be a double-blind peer reviewed journal thingo, but it's hard, and possibly rather silly to convince yourself that things you have seen/heard/felt/etc aren't true.

It may help to study the brain and perception, and learn about stuff like confirmation bias, cultural bias, hallucination, wishfull thinking (focusing on truth-claims as something being rewarding rather than true), false memory, apophenia, etc.

Or even to study simmilar claims by people who belive in extraordinary things that go against the extraordinary things that you believe. It's no secret there are tons of people who claim to have first-hand experience of evidence for the god of christianity, but also tons of people claiming to have such evidence for gods of many other religions, the truth of which are often mutually exclusive.

Also it may be important to not say so much about the nature of "an otherworldly experience", including whether it's "a double-blind peer reviewed journal thingo", before there are good reason to believe there are "otherwordly" experiences at all. And it's very important to use clear definitions of such things before going into whether they exist.

Top
 Profile  
caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
Posts: 6688
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:45 am 
 

Oh yeah, absolutely. That's the problem with the brain, in that it's basically the tool by which you perceive reality, but it's also a rather flawed thing at the best of times. Stuff like confirmation bias is such a tricky devil in particular- being aware of it doesn't mean you can control it particularly well!
_________________
https://strangercountry.bandcamp.com/al ... the-chebar new album! Power shoegaze? Dream-doom???

Top
 Profile  
lost_wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:46 pm 
 

I haven't read this book but it looks interesting.

''Demons of the Flesh: The Complete Guide to Left Hand Path Sex Magic (Zeena Schreck, Co-Author)''


http://www.nikolasschreck.eu/index.php? ... &Itemid=53

A review of the book:

''The definitive guide to sexual alchemy ... Demons of the Flesh is a complete and thorough presentation of the history and techniques of radical self-transformation and enhancement through the practice of sacramental sex. The book is divided into three main sections covering the better known Eastern Tantric practices, the hermetic Western methods and a tutorial on the practical application of the methods described. The nature of magic is clearly stated by the authors in the very first chapter, as they introduce the reader to the Vama Marga Tantra of India:

‘It is a keystone of our understanding of magic’s underlying identity wth maya that magic is not a comfortable niche to be settled into forever. Instead it is a transitional vehicle, a means to an end. Magic can be the awakening agent that frees its practitioner from certain illusions, allowing the flash of insight that transcends all philopshical inquiry. Through magic, the mind can learn that there is not one indisputable reality. There is an endless multiplicity of realities...the direct confrontation with Maya that sorcery allows might be said to be magic’s primary objective. It is this confrontation that permits the sorcerer to viscerally understand how deeply his or her shifting subjective overlays influence that which he or she perceives – an understanding that may hasten the transformation of human sentience to divine consciousness...’''

Top
 Profile  
Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 1255
Location: Crippling Velocity
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:23 pm 
 

I have a feeling there would be some difficulty justifying the cans and mays in the quote above...

"Through magic, the mind can learn that there is not one indisputable reality"
"Magic can be the awakening agent that frees its practitioner from certain illusions, allowing the flash of insight that transcends all philopshical inquiry"
"that may hasten the transformation of human sentience to divine consciousness"

Are people here seriously impressed by this sort of stuff?

Top
 Profile  
Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1455
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:27 pm 
 

Dembo wrote:

Are people here seriously impressed by this sort of stuff?


To an extent, but I wouldn't word it that way.

I had a conversation recently with a guy I know who happens to be a Psychiatrist, and moreso (unusually at least where I live) heavily into Lacanian/Jungian Psychoanalysis. We got talking about the unconscious mind and I offered the perspective that insofar as magic "works" it works because it deals directly with the symbolic/irrational and as such speaks the same language as the unconscious. Most of the time the unconscious is pulling in all sorts of different directions and often trying to sabotage the conscious mind/will. If that energy can be harnessed and turned to useful ends the results can be surprising - not in the sense of being able to do supernatural shit, but of reducing the inner conflicts between the various parts of the mind.

Conversely, there are all sorts of ways to use it against people - to exploit the unconscious through the use of symbolism, ritual, drugs, subliminal messaging, layers of language etc. This is one of the reasons I draw a distinction between "the occult" and "religion" - the former is aimed towards empowering the adept, the latter with maintaining a system of control. the tools are very much the same however.
_________________
Mike_Tyson wrote:
"I think the average person thinks I'm a fucking nut and I deserve whatever happens to me."

"My intentions were not to fascinate the world with my personality."

Top
 Profile  
circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1081
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:20 pm 
 

Quote:
Anyway, I have no problem with those who says it's bullshit- it's pretty hard to argue against, honestly. I tend to simply say that an otherworldly experience may not be a double-blind peer reviewed journal thingo, but it's hard, and possibly rather silly to convince yourself that things you have seen/heard/felt/etc aren't true.

I disagree very much with this [bolded] statement, because perception, memory, and one's interpretation of these can be heavily flawed. Once you realize that, it's a lot less disturbing to think something you thought you experienced may not have been objectively real. This is why eyewitness testimony is problematic. People don't necessary KNOW what they saw or heard; they only have a flawed memory of it that their mind has probably edited a bit. The brain is not like a video camera.

I agree that it's probably hard in most cases, though.

For example, hallucinations. You may experience them as real, but I think it's very worthwhile to be aware that they aren't real, and even if we're talking about something smaller than that, personally, I like to know what's [likely] real and what's not just for the sake of knowing. I feel like I owe it to myself to question my perception of things and beliefs, also.
_________________
CircleOfDestruction zine #18|Video-Nasties.net | My Art Site

Top
 Profile  
lost_wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:58 pm 
 

''I feel like I owe it to myself to question my perception of things and beliefs, also.''. it's good to do that but we should do it not only when something is ''strange''. In a sense how do you know the person in front of you is real, and if he is real, is it really a human? How do you know for sure? If you say that you can touch it, I can argue with the fact that some people considered mentally insane can feel the touch of something invisible like a person touching them. Maybe he is crazy but maybe not. If he is, maybe you are too.

Top
 Profile  
circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1081
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:35 pm 
 

lost_wanderer wrote:
''I feel like I owe it to myself to question my perception of things and beliefs, also.''. it's good to do that but we should do it not only when something is ''strange''. In a sense how do you know the person in front of you is real, and if he is real, is it really a human? How do you know for sure? If you say that you can touch it, I can argue with the fact that some people considered mentally insane can feel the touch of something invisible like a person touching them. Maybe he is crazy but maybe not. If he is, maybe you are too.

I don't think it has to be taken to the level of nihilism necessarily. It can be a fun thought experiment, but not very practical in one's everyday life.

On the other hand, if you saw something out of the ordinary, some reasons you might want to question it are (1) because you care about what's real and what isn't, and (2) to try to make sure you're not being fooled.

I mean, I've talked to religious people who say they refuse to question their belief in an afterlife because this belief makes them feel good. I can't even fathom that; I don't want to believe something just because it makes me feel good; I want to get as close to the truth and reality as I can.
_________________
CircleOfDestruction zine #18|Video-Nasties.net | My Art Site

Top
 Profile  
lost_wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:11 pm 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
lost_wanderer wrote:
''I feel like I owe it to myself to question my perception of things and beliefs, also.''. it's good to do that but we should do it not only when something is ''strange''. In a sense how do you know the person in front of you is real, and if he is real, is it really a human? How do you know for sure? If you say that you can touch it, I can argue with the fact that some people considered mentally insane can feel the touch of something invisible like a person touching them. Maybe he is crazy but maybe not. If he is, maybe you are too.

I don't think it has to be taken to the level of nihilism necessarily. It can be a fun thought experiment, but not very practical in one's everyday life.

On the other hand, if you saw something out of the ordinary, some reasons you might want to question it are (1) because you care about what's real and what isn't, and (2) to try to make sure you're not being fooled.

I mean, I've talked to religious people who say they refuse to question their belief in an afterlife because this belief makes them feel good. I can't even fathom that; I don't want to believe something just because it makes me feel good; I want to get as close to the truth and reality as I can.


If you want to be to as close to the truth and reality, you got to question everything in daily life. try some focusing exercises. If you go deep enough, your perceptions should be enhanced. Read about the occult, but also about science be it conventionnal but also non conventionnal or pseudo science ( it's not always totally false and can trigger new ideas when mixed with conventionnal science, can lead to discoveries). Experiment. I you combine all of that and you may be go toward the truth. Sure it's not very practical in everyday life if you do it in high doses.

Top
 Profile  
Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 7804
Location: The Land Down Under (no, not THAT one)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:24 pm 
 

Questioning everything all the time sounds like a highly impractical and energy-draining way of living. Sometimes, you gotta accept that shit just is. You know, like Darkseid.
_________________
Napero wrote:
(...) Bolt Thrower is to the soul what coffee is to the earthly shell.

Top
 Profile  
circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1081
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:46 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
Questioning everything all the time sounds like a highly impractical and energy-draining way of living. Sometimes, you gotta accept that shit just is. You know, like Darkseid.

^This.

Sure, this could all be a hologram, but how does that idea help me go about my daily life? It doesn't. In fact, it may well hinder a person to worry about that too much.

On the other hand, questioning supernatural claims and pseudoscience can help you to avoid being ripped off by charlatans or wasting your time of things that are not supported by evidence or not likely to be true. Because one's time is limited, I think it's best to do the thought experiments in philosophy class, and to spend the other time picking and choosing what things to examine based on how it benefits you or how out of the ordinary it seems.

But again, it depends on what you find value in. Occult literature can be fun to read, but without any hard evidence, I am not going to believe that magic exists.

There is also this mistaken idea that if you give a damn about science or are skeptical at all you can't possibly also have an imagination. You can, you can imagine all sorts of crazy shit. You don't have to believe wacky shit is true to think about it or imagine it.
_________________
CircleOfDestruction zine #18|Video-Nasties.net | My Art Site

Top
 Profile  
Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 1255
Location: Crippling Velocity
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:53 pm 
 

It's common in discussions about things like gods, spirits, ghosts, etc. for someone to point out that alot of things can't be known for sure. However, it's important to bear in mind that even if were to land in the position that most of our judgements are unfounded, at no point does that become a defense for any belief in a extraordinary claim (such as those about the existence of spirits, gods, ghosts, demons, angels, some sort of "higher truth", etc.).

So if we start by accepting alot of ordinary claims, such as a person seemingly in front of me existing as a physical object, and rejecting extraordinary claims, such as the magic ones above, then the magic ones need to be justified. If rejecting both ordinary claims and the magic ones, then the magic ones still need to be justified. So that doesn't help the one making claims about truth in magic.

Top
 Profile  
RichardDeBenthall
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:46 am
Posts: 300
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:57 am 
 

Quote:
...what?

Science-y things today would have been interpreted as "magic" a hundred years ago, but only through incomplete understanding. That does not mean that things interpreted as "magic" today will be accepted as science tomorrow.

I think you pretty well summed up occult thinking right there.


Another typical over-reacting comment. I'm not saying that everything everyone believes within 'the Occult' is definitely real and that Science will one day prove its existence. I'm saying that it would be silly to dismiss everything on the basis that it sounds stupid or odd.

My reference to the Science vs. Magic dichotomy was that I'm pretty sure that a lot of modern scientific theory would have be deemed stupid and downright heretical by people in the 13th Century and is now widely accepted as fact.

My comment was more suggesting that there are still things that we don't understand and maybe the study of the Occult can provide a glimpse of some of these things. Maybe not! Doesn't make the study of it any less inviting to many.

Top
 Profile  
Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 1305
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:34 am 
 

TRIGGERED!

Science can be seen like magic only if you have absolutely no clue of concepts like scienfic method, refutability, empirical evidence and at least a basic knowledge of Kant's good old phenomenon vs noumenon debate.

Science defines clearly its strict conceptual borders and legitimated itself as a effective method of gaining knowledge using and continuosly debating the definitions of those (and many others) basic concepts during the centuries.

What makes magic so intriguing is the total lack of those borders (or the completely arbitrary definition of them) that leads to a complete lack of a solid, replicable method... and any knowledge gained through this method is destined to be not solid and arbitrary as it is.

And IMHO a knowledge that is not solid it's not useful for gaining insight on how the world we live in works.
It may be fun, interesting, a wacky placebo whose effect can be researched and documented .. but not useful in the sense i meant.

Top
 Profile  
Red_Death
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:51 pm
Posts: 621
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:58 am 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
You can't harm anyone, yourself included, by performing weirdo rituals in the dark. You might as well try to use the Force, while you're at it.

Tell that to those intoxicated guys who accidentally stabbed themselves while doing it :-P :lol:

But for real, I do think that certain personalities might get themselves in trouble by dabbling in this sort of thing. Not because of "entities from other planes" or any such thing, but because of the underlying effects of that psycho-drama. So harm would not be immediate, but rather "secondary" or mediated by all sorts of mechanisms.

Personally, I was interested a bit in Thelema at some points, even to the extent of participating in the Gnostic Mass. It was cool experience, and totally unrelated to those stories about run down people on the first page (the biggest anti-stereotype would be a healthily chubby and chirpy plumber in his 40s :lol:). I kind of regret not hanging out with those folks more.
_________________
And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.

Top
 Profile  
circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1081
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:59 pm 
 

Quote:
Science defines clearly its strict conceptual borders and legitimated itself as a effective method of gaining knowledge using and continuosly debating the definitions of those (and many others) basic concepts during the centuries.


sci·ence
/ˈsīəns/
noun
"the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

It's a process by which people observe the world and make hypotheses about the world (which can then be tested, expanded on, or thrown out when people find out new things). The only limitations are that the phenomena be observable in some way (and they don't even need to be directly observable). Science isn't about "debating definitions."

But yes, I suppose it's limited to things that can be observed or things that exert an influence on other things, which is why magic is largely ignored by it.

So if you want to romanticize "magic" because it's not defined as something that has any effect on the real world at all, that's fine, but I hardly see "not having a detectable impact on reality" as a positive thing.
_________________
CircleOfDestruction zine #18|Video-Nasties.net | My Art Site

Top
 Profile  
Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 1305
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:33 pm 
 

Ehm.. Where i said that science is about debating definitions?

In the quoted section was talking about how the scientific method gained its strenght and reliability by clearly defining what can be considered a phenomenon and what not, what are replicability, refutability..and so on.
The meaning of those terms was defined during centuries of discussion

No legitimate empirical evidence (direct or indirect) means that is impossible to do a systematic study on a subject.
And no possibility to do a systematic study means that there is no solid method of gaining useful, objective and interpersonal knowledge about a subject.

Magic completely lacks this objectivity and repeatability and has not a solid method to justify itself other than completely arbitrary esoteric rituals and "magical words" so its not possible to gain useful informations about the world by "using" it, only completely arbitrary ones believed by the "mage".

Top
 Profile  
circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1081
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:07 pm 
 

Morn of Silence wrote:
Ehm.. Where i said that science is about debating definitions?


Right here:

Quote:
continuosly debating the definitions of those


I meant it's not debating the definitions of anything, but whether or not something is repeatable, etc., as you said later.

Morn of Silence wrote:
Magic completely lacks this objectivity and repeatability and has not a solid method to justify itself other than completely arbitrary esoteric rituals and "magical words" so its not possible to gain useful informations about the world by "using" it, only completely arbitrary ones believed by the "mage".

Right. If you can't perform the same magic spell twice and get results, and the same results both times, then I don't see much point in believing that magic works, that's all.

So, as I said before, I don't care if people want to do it and believe in it or now, but I will disagree when people assert that actual harm can come to people from doing magic (due to bad "karma" (word being misused in that sense), demons or other entities, or bad (ill-defined) "energies," because in order to assert that, you would need evidence for it.

(Not arguing that people can't get caught up in their beliefs and it can cause them mental distress, but that's equally true of religions, etc. like Christianity. If you're not Catholic (or other religion believing in evil spirits), you don't tend to get possessed by demons and need an exorcist. People who don't believe in ghosts don't get haunted. But that's more the power of suggestion plus attributing normal phenomena to supernatural phenomena.)
_________________
CircleOfDestruction zine #18|Video-Nasties.net | My Art Site

Top
 Profile  
Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 1305
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:55 pm 
 

Yup, i agree! :)

I just get triggered when i see stuff like "magic can do this and this" "science is the successor of magic""science is limited so we must add some hocus pocus" when their tie is practically non-existent and one of the two should be left in fantasy books and the other explained a little bit more clearly in schools to avoid disasters :lol:

Top
 Profile  
nahtanoj
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:04 pm
Posts: 90
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:16 am 
 

It still amazes me that anyone thinks a metal forum is the place to discuss the esoteric/occult in any kind of productive way. You're more than likely not gonna find what you're looking for here.
_________________
Noctis - Blackened Sonic Ritual
Visuals

Top
 Profile  
aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 1728
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:09 am 
 

never gets old

Spoiler: show
Image
_________________
the devil is very old indeed, we sit with a few stories to tell

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BastardHead, Google [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group