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MorbidEngel
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Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:37 pm
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Location: New Jersey
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:41 pm 
 

What baffles me is how one can do that to someone.

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Tekdeth
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:32 pm
Posts: 206
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:50 pm 
 

MediaMarkt (a consumer electronics store) accidentally sold a bunch of 2000 euro iMac's for only about 2 euro here in the Netherlands due to an error. So there's this dude who bought 3 of them for about 7 euro's and he's refusing to pay the full price or return the iMac's to the store. "Bring on that lawsuit" he said in an interview, lmao.
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droneriot
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:20 am 
 

Literally just one dude? Fuck you people really do live up to your reputation of being way too nice.
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Tekdeth
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Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:32 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:10 am 
 

Well only about 10 units were sold for that price because they fixed the error after half an hour. Some of the people returned them or payed the full price afterwards. It's just that this guy is all over the news because he bought 3 of them and is very vocal about not wanting to return them.
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mjollnir
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 1852
Location: Versailles, PA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:46 am 
 

I was a correctional officer in the State of Maryland for 16 years and never bothered with the unions. I thought that it was weird for government employees to unionize....but it was not compulsory so, whatever. I eventually became management and realized that the unions were there to protect the bully’s and asshole officers who think that badge can cover their ass....then, after the residents get tired of the bullshit and start throwing wash machines over the tier, they want to enact all kinds of new rules to limit the already limited time the inmates have to keep from losing it. The police unions are the same way. I had to deal with a lot of cops in my capacity and because I am white, the things they would say because they thought I was one of them. These people are jaded and bitter because after years of doing this job thinking they are big men and can handle it, it severely fucks with them and it becomes and us vs them mentality. All perps are maggots. They have no rights because we KNOW (not that they were judged by a jury, mind you) they are guilty as fuck! The head of the police union in Minneapolis said that George Floyd was a dangerous drug addict. I don’t care if he’s Alphonse Fucking Capone, there is still this little thing called the Bill of Rights that seems to only have one Amendment if you ask any Trumplican. Let the states and municipalities that want to defund their police and try something new, do it. The old way, obviously doesn’t work.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:13 am 
 

As far as I know there are two amendments, the first and the second:

1. Nobody has the right to criticise you for your bigotry, because voicing criticism of bigotry is censorship and 1984 and you're the real fascists.
2. Everybody who believes in white supremacy must gather as many military grade weapons as possible to intimidate or execute critics.
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Napero
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:54 pm 
 

OK, I'm giving up and asking you people: what's the name of the Nile song with the Led Zeppelin part in the end (Kashmir, IIRC)?
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Earthcubed
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:22 pm 
 

Someone has been busy in Iran. There was another explosion just a few hours ago; six explosions/fires in less then two weeks. You know, totally normal stuff.

I think the one near Parchin was probably a genuine accident; not so much some of the others.
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Jonpo
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:44 pm 
 

I posted awhile back that my dad has been saying some super sketchy things since a revolution has kicked off in the US. I won't rehash what he said previously but last night, over dinner, he told me that he's been listening to "hours" of Jordan Peterson lectures every day. I can't explain how much my stomach fell through the floor. It's still in knots almost a full 24 hours later.

I'm 34 years old and I've just realized that my dad is a giant, fence-sitting centrist coward. We argued pretty contentiously for about an hour and then my lovely fiance created a fake emergency so we could leave. I'm genuinely wrestling with how to figure out when it's time to cut him out of my life completely. He's so concerned with "hearing all sides of the argument" that he is unteachable at the moment.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:51 pm 
 

^ Sucks... these political times are fucking nuts.

I think I've actually moved my parents a bit more left by talking with them about Bernie Sanders' ideas and whatnot before he dropped out. They've always been fairly cool though. Some of my extended family are apparently pretty conservative and I'm glad I don't see them at all - my grandmother who's been dead 20 years was the only one who got us together.
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Luvers
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:55 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
^ Sucks... these political times are fucking nuts.

I think I've actually moved my parents a bit more left by talking with them about Bernie Sanders' ideas and whatnot before he dropped out. They've always been fairly cool though. Some of my extended family are apparently pretty conservative and I'm glad I don't see them at all - my grandmother who's been dead 20 years was the only one who got us together.
It is really insane just how bad times have become and how loved ones are falling out with each other.

Could I ask how you achieved moving your parents a bit more left? ... I do not have parents to move one way or the other, but I was genuinely curious as to what exactly you said to get them to budge.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:04 pm 
 

Can we have like a separate thread for people to publish their foe lists so we get the edgelord announcements about them out of other threads?
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The_Apex_of_Collapse
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Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:29 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:44 pm 
 

This left, right shit is just so ridiculous. I argue with my dad too because he is a big Trump guy, even though he is Canadian, and we get heated. At the same time a long time friend who found her way far left recently chastised me for being part of the 'patriarchy' a few days ago for no reason :scratch: Both sides have become full blown religious movements in the "Follow our doctrine are you are the enemy" mentality and the other side says the exact same thing. Why people lean so far right, or so far left, that it becomes a cult like mentality is beyond me.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:54 pm 
 

I can't say it's a left/right thing for me. I literally don't even know my family members affiliation or who they vote for. I just need to know that they're on the same side as me when it comes to basic human rights. The people (very much including my father) who want to turn everything into a "debate" right now have me so exhausted. I'm not going to debate about why it's wrong for innocent people to be murdered in the streets ON CAMERA, with zero justice afterwards. Why it's wrong for people to be lynched. Why it's wrong that there's zero investigation into said lynchings.

If we can't agree on those very basic things, you're a danger to myself and my little family I'm trying to create.
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:15 pm 
 

That's very fair, I'm definitely exhausted at arguing against things I see as straightforward (masks during COVID-19, racial justice, etc). Specifically on the issue of racial justice, there's a lot of people who hide their bigotry, whether conscious or unconscious bigotry, by saying "I just want to talk about my ideas and how I view the world, why can't we just agree to disagree?" It's no different from loony tunes conspiracy theorists who want to talk about why the Earth is flat or how the moon landings were faked. It's like teaching basic math when you're in calculus three, some things are so obvious that it becomes an exercise in patience more than an exercise in persuasion.

That said, the biggest problem with discussing politics on the internet is that everyone is primed to either pigeon hole somebody into a camp that disagrees or agrees with them in entirety. And, if a person does have bigoted views, they are seen as irredeemable. What's more scary is that because everyone in the western world is on the internet all the time now, these interactions have trickled into our every day interactions, leading to an incredibly toxic dialogue between opposing viewpoints.

I've been in a multitude of situations where I'm around somebody for weeks or even months on end and not a word is uttered about politics. But the minute we do, both our minds begin to attempt to lump that person into either an "ally" or "enemy". There's no agree to disagree, it's either they're a shithead or they're cool, and the past weeks/months of interactions that went positively mean absolutely nothing. It's a very toxic way of viewing the world, because the only way people will change is if they're exposed to positive interactions with people on the opposite side of the political spectrum. Sure- they may not ever change their views. But you're more likely to create allies out of people by refraining from calling them "Right Wing Chuds" or "SJW Beta Males".

Furthermore, these sort of negative interactions completely ignore the complexity of the human condition. Our political belief do not encompass all that we are (at least they shouldn't, they increasingly do reveal various facets of our upbringing, but I digress). Often those beliefs stem from environmental exposure, not some sort of genetic origin where we're predestined to be politically one way or another (thus being irredeemable). In other words, we're complex, multifaceted entities that shouldn't ever be completely pigeon holed. I think Nergal sort of said it best when talking about accusations of him being "hipster" (pretty light accusation as opposed to what people were saying about him being a Nazi, which he promptly rebuked in a way Mgla and other artists still haven't):

Nergal wrote:
Culturally, hipsters make the world evolve. Am I hipster myself? I don’t know because I try to run away from any definitions. People love to put stickers on your forehead, and my on forehead there’s a lot of space so I always get more than one. It’s cool. If it makes your life easier, it’s cool with me, but trust me, if I’m a hipster then fine, I’m a hipster and a billion other things at the same time. I throw the card out and I do it because that’s what the complexity of human nature is all about. We’re very complex beings and you people, you bashers and accusers, you better learn that. The sooner you learn about that the happier and less frustrated you’re going to be, the less violent and aggressive you’re going to be towards other people because it’s all about yourself. There’s hipster in each one of you. This is going to be very controversial for some people, but I bet there’s Adolf Hitler in each one of you as well, maybe a little percent. We are everything.


Sorry if this all sounds like Kumbaya bullshit, but the edgy ad homs and black/white thinking ain't much better ;)
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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:30 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Can we have like a separate thread for people to publish their foe lists so we get the edgelord announcements about them out of other threads?


if it goes far enough, we'll end up with two parallel message boards, with only the mods subject to both sets of angry, angry typing :lol:
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:31 am 
 

Luvers666 wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
^ Sucks... these political times are fucking nuts.

I think I've actually moved my parents a bit more left by talking with them about Bernie Sanders' ideas and whatnot before he dropped out. They've always been fairly cool though. Some of my extended family are apparently pretty conservative and I'm glad I don't see them at all - my grandmother who's been dead 20 years was the only one who got us together.
It is really insane just how bad times have become and how loved ones are falling out with each other.

Could I ask how you achieved moving your parents a bit more left? ... I do not have parents to move one way or the other, but I was genuinely curious as to what exactly you said to get them to budge.


It's just seeing how badly Trump is doing. They weren't conservative diehards or anything. There was just a lot of new info in general people were finally learning about for the past few years.

Jonpo wrote:
I can't say it's a left/right thing for me. I literally don't even know my family members affiliation or who they vote for. I just need to know that they're on the same side as me when it comes to basic human rights. The people (very much including my father) who want to turn everything into a "debate" right now have me so exhausted. I'm not going to debate about why it's wrong for innocent people to be murdered in the streets ON CAMERA, with zero justice afterwards. Why it's wrong for people to be lynched. Why it's wrong that there's zero investigation into said lynchings.

If we can't agree on those very basic things, you're a danger to myself and my little family I'm trying to create.


This is really the best way to go about it. Say what you will about polarization and the hyperpoliticizing of everything where everyone just accuses people of being some extreme strawman, but you just have to let people be who they are. Can't be against gay marriage, abortion, whatever else - I just can't get on board with anyone trying to restrict harmless things like that. And what you said about the cop-killing videos is another one; anyone trying to downplay those, I can't find common ground with on that subject.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:48 am 
 

At least your parents were able to be persuaded away from their less savory beliefs in such a simple manner. My parents, my wife's parents, and almost every other member of our immediate families are diehard conservative Trumper conspiracy psychos. It was so fucking disheartening watching my father get radicalized by his new wife in real time (she's a super fundamentalist Christian to the point that she thought I was a devil worshiper because I once listened to Ghost in the car while she was in it), as he went from someone I could have a reasonable conversation about current events with to someone that thinks wearing a mask is Communism and that Covid was created in a Chinese lab. I cannot forgive her for that. It's actually even worse with my wife's parents. My wife is black, and all of her siblings are black, and their parents are scarily pro-Blue Lives Matter. It stems from her stepfather being a cop in Boston, one that ironically once got bullied by racists out of a job in another police department. We've asked them several times what if it was my wife or one of their kids that was shot and killed by the cops, and they either never answer or dance around the answer.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:22 pm 
 

Yeah I mean I'm not sure they ever had 'unsavory' beliefs - no more than most moderate types. They went for Bush way back in the day I guess, but were for Obama when he came around.

I hear about people's parents being such die-hard Christian weirdos all the time. A lot of my friends have parents like that - something about living in a super white suburb can do it to you I guess. And decades of indoctrination through Fox News and stuff.

As for your wife's family, yeah, there are black conservatives out there. There are all kinds of minorities who aren't too sour on Trump or conservatism at all. Why the whole Biden/Democrat party "you're not black if you're not voting for me" stuff is silly... but eh I won't derail the thread with that stuff.
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Luvers
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:17 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
That's very fair, I'm definitely exhausted at arguing against things I see as straightforward (masks during COVID-19, racial justice, etc).
I agree. Seeing people refusing to wear masks because they think it is a 'Liberal Agenda' is just maddening.
Unorthodox wrote:
Specifically on the issue of racial justice, there's a lot of people who hide their bigotry, whether conscious or unconscious bigotry, by saying "I just want to talk about my ideas and how I view the world, why can't we just agree to disagree?"
Or it could just be others do not have a stick up their ass and realize that statements regarding race or jokes/sense of humor regarding race does not constitute as bigotry. Speaking of straightforward issues, racism is universally summarized as, "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized." - So how would addressing or being deliberately humorous on the subject of race - rather that is in a teaching setting, barbecue gathering or online Tweet - count as bigotry?

If someone were to say, "How many police officers does it take to change a light bulb? None! They would just shoot the room for being black!" does not mean they are a bigot. It is true the jokes setup and payoff deals directly with the subject of race but it is not lost on the person that police brutality exists, and that it disproportionately targets minorities, especially African Americans. The person is not downplaying how awful the scenario has always been, or claiming nothing needs to be done because they think systemic racism is false. Humor is therapeutic and almost always stems from very heavy and depressing topics. Why do you think the most common action done by someone whenever a situation is so tense that you can cut the atmosphere with a dull olive fork is to tell a joke? To find the humor in what is otherwise not a humorous situation.

What is for certain is that the 'racist' joke told above resulted in no African American being slighted in anyway. No one died, was arrested, accosted, denied civil liberties, terminated from their job, evicted from their home, or any other possible negative outcome. I suppose the most one can respond with is that the joke might entice antagonism in someone who was already a bigot but that would be shifting the blame. Just like no one should blame any art for the actions of people who worshiped it, no one should believe jokes or discourses that deal with race is responsible for the actions of an actual bigot.

Another common definition of racism is: the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

So are forensic anthropologists racist when they demonstrate the distinct characteristics between, say, a Caucasoid, Mongoloid or Negroid skull? Or when demonstrating the positive qualities, as a result of distinct abilities, inherent with the density of areal and volumetric mineral density of the tibia bone for people with immediate African ancestry? They are claiming individuals we call 'black' are objectively faster at sprint running as a result of these genetic characteristics. Such as the tibia and radius diaphysis where black men have larger bones with thicker cortices and greater bending strength than the other groups.
Unorthodox wrote:
That said, the biggest problem with discussing politics on the internet is that everyone is primed to either pigeon hole somebody into a camp that disagrees or agrees with them in entirety.
I agree although I believe it is compounded by the 'confidence' one has when sitting behind a monitor. Even to this post of mine someone will inevitably disagree with it and if face to face they would likely just say, Well, I disagree lady, and move on but when hidden behind a monitor they can be Rambo and conclude their dismissal of me with an order to return to the kitchen...
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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:48 pm 
 

Luvers666 wrote:
Or it could just be others do not have a stick up their ass and realize that statements regarding race or jokes/sense of humor regarding race does not constitute as bigotry.


Depends on the joke. I said this on a previous page of this very thread, except everyone got distracted by the low hanging strawman, but it's worth reiterating- some people joke about things they won't fully admit they believe in. On both sides. I see socialists do it about killing landlords, I see Trump supporters doing it about Mexicans. Fuck- I see holocaust deniers doing it about the holocaust. People who are too pussy to confidently assert what they believe in end up masquerading their beliefs behind jokes. And yeah- some jokes are just jokes, no doubt. But a lot aren't.

There's a reason why mainstream news outlets started conflating Pepe the frog with racism. It's not because Pepe the frog is an inherently racist meme, but that meme became the platform to which the alt right pushed their agenda.

Luvers666 wrote:
If someone were to say, "How many police officers does it take to change a light bulb? None! They would just shoot the room for being black!" does not mean they are a bigot.


:lol: I don't think that was the greatest example, because the punchline says more about cops than black people. But I get your point. And yeah- jokes have to hold reference to reality in some way or another in order to be relevant. But it's always a tight rope that's being walked between edgy humor and just being an ass hole.


Luvers666 wrote:
Another common definition of racism is: the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

So are forensic anthropologists racist when they demonstrate the distinct characteristics between, say, a Caucasoid, Mongoloid or Negroid skull? Or when demonstrating the positive qualities, as a result of distinct abilities, inherent with the density of areal and volumetric mineral density of the tibia bone for people with immediate African ancestry? They are claiming individuals we call 'black' are objectively faster at sprint running as a result of these genetic characteristics. Such as the tibia and radius diaphysis where black men have larger bones with thicker cortices and greater bending strength than the other groups.


Yeah, I don't buy for a single second that there's much of a statistical correlation between skin color and other biological features, as that implies you could predict bone density/skull size/etc solely based off of someones skin. Fuck- I know for a fact my own bone density/skull shape/etc is different from various white people, albeit this is pretty anecdotal. Like sure- certain groups of people from various parts of the world might have distinctive characteristics that have developed over the years from being in whatever particular region they're in, and that could also pair with a certain type of skin color. But there's plenty of people from other regions with other biological characteristics with that very same skin color.

Going to college with a lot of Africans and first generation Americans who came from Africa made me, a white-skinned American, realize the complete diversity of biological features only found within africans. Sudanese people don't look like Nigerians and both of those don't look like Somalians (although Sudanese kind of do, depending where you are). They're all black though. When I hear catch phrases like "immediate African ancestry" when discussing biological characteristics, I think about what "immediate European ancestry" looks like. Do Italians and Germans and Norwegians have extremely similar biological characteristics? Aside from all being homo sapiens, which literally implicates 99% of the genome being the same, nah, there's clear differences between them all. Do they have the same skin color? Yeah. So is the skin color correlated to the various biological differences? Nah.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:05 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
On both sides. I see socialists do it about killing landlords, I see Trump supporters doing it about Mexicans.

Do correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't there already some debate about this false equivalence?
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:07 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Unorthodox wrote:
On both sides. I see socialists do it about killing landlords, I see Trump supporters doing it about Mexicans.

Do correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't there already some debate about this false equivalence?


Yeah, and as I said earlier, drawing equivalences between those examples isn't the point I'm making, it's that

Unorthodox wrote:
some people joke about things they won't fully admit they believe in
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:13 pm 
 

I get that, but it bugs me that this "both sides" rhetoric keeps coming up.
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:21 pm 
 

That's fair, but realize I'm not trying to give the "oh well the left is fucked AND the right is fucked up! They're all fucked! Politicans are fucked! They're all corrupt!" argument :lol:.

In this instance, it's not logically consistent to simply say that one side uses jokes to masquerade their beliefs while the other doesn't. Sorry, they both do it. Whether one belief is worse than the other is entirely irrelevant in this context.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:26 pm 
 

Races are made up shit. Ethnicities can be shown in the genome, races are just arbitrary categories based on appearance.

There isn't even a difference in skin colour, all humans have the same skin colour, we just have more or less of it. You can see it by looking for little blue veins on a white person and a darker person, you only see them on a white person, because the white person is the same colour but simply at lower density so more light gets through.
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:51 pm 
 

Generally, yeah- race is a social construct. Obviously the big difference between races is different amounts of melanin in the skin, but that border between "black" and "brown" and "white" is entirely up to interpretation.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:44 pm 
 

Not just generally but entirely, it's completely made up. Blacks are black because of more sunshine. East Asians have higher cheekbones because they live West of a big ocean that dumps more rainfall making their food softer. None of it means anything. Put a bunch of Varg's offspring in Africa and they'll be black in a couple of generations, put a bunch of Varg's other offspring (plenty of it in his little shack) in East Asia and they'll have higher cheekbones in a couple generations, in turn put a bunch of Robert Mugabe's kids in Norway and they'll get light skin in a couple generations, our same species adapts to its surroundings but remains the same species.
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Osore
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:15 pm 
 

I don't know about cheekbones, but yes, human races don't exist because there is greater in-group than inter-group genetic variability when it comes to ''black'', ''white'' and ''yellow'' people. It's not intuitive as for me all black people seem similar at the first glance, so I couldn't see morphological diversity which at its base has significant genetic variability until I saw a picture in a textbook about anthropology that shows different black people from different parts of Africa. People have spent the longest time on African continent, which is why there's a greater in-group genetic diversity. Also, criteria that are used for races in other animals says that there is not enough difference between people of ''3 colours'' to subdivide Homo sapiens to races, and it would be stupid to make an exception and change this criteria because we are animals as well and cultural constructs shouldn't change rules of classification and taxonomy by default.

P.S. I'm not sure a couple of generations would suffice to turn someone from porcelain to charcoal shade. Australians with European descent are still white; how many generations that would be? Maybe Indians or Indonesians could be a suitable example from switching slowly from white/yellow to darker, brown shades.


Last edited by Osore on Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:22 pm 
 

Osore wrote:
I don't know about cheekbones, but yes,

Rainstorms form over oceans and go West (technically they go East but the planet goes East faster than them), so the bigger the oceans rainstorms form from, the more of them go over the land West of them, causing the land they go over to be more humid, causing more wet crops like rice to grow and fewer drier crops like wheat to grow.
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Osore
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:32 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Osore wrote:
I don't know about cheekbones, but yes,

Rainstorms form over oceans and go West (technically they go East but the planet goes East faster than them), so the bigger the oceans rainstorms form from, the more of them go over the land West of them, causing the land they go over to be more humid, causing more wet crops like rice to grow and fewer drier crops like wheat to grow.
So it has to do with softer food? Interesting, I should search for some studies.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:00 pm 
 

Well look at a dog's ears compared to a wolf's ears. Food you eat changes your jaw.

And you don't need studies. Just look at a world map and where the water is and where the water moves.
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Osore
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:17 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Food you eat changes your jaw.
Correct, just like climate shaped our noses.

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Luvers
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:13 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Depends on the joke. I said this on a previous page of this very thread, except everyone got distracted by the low hanging strawman, but it's worth reiterating- some people joke about things they won't fully admit they believe in. On both sides. I see socialists do it about killing landlords, I see Trump supporters doing it about Mexicans. Fuck- I see holocaust deniers doing it about the holocaust. People who are too pussy to confidently assert what they believe in end up masquerading their beliefs behind jokes. And yeah- some jokes are just jokes, no doubt. But a lot aren't.
It is possible that people do what you are claiming, but upon first read it really did suggest that you were implying everyone believes what they joke about. This reads like you are trying to flatly defend a position that is unwarranted. There is no second option on the joke, it depends on how the joke teller is intending it and what implication it carries. You are just one little unknown dot in a sea of people so your influence stretches about as far as your moniker. However if someone has a significant influence on others and their entire brand of comedy rests on bigotry as foundation and payoff, then it walks the very tightrope of if the person is meant to make peoples faces hurt from laughter or to cite an insurrection centered on bigotry.

Even the most cruelest and mean spirited of jokes are just jokes, they are usually an exaggeration of small factoids. A good demonstration would be if someone believes all black fathers are absent dads. There are statistics that prove many black families of the 20th century had absent dads, for various reasons, so someone can hear what is factual information and then say, "Know what the most confusing day in Harlem is? Father's Day!"

This is an exaggeration of the stereotype that black men are not suitable parents or rode models. Of course the joke is racist because its entire punchline is based on the race/skin tone of the person(s) being lampooned. It would be factually incorrect to say no black man has ever abandoned his family, but just having information does not mean one has perspective. There are an array of different reasons - some beyond anyone's control - that provide perspective on the reason(s) for abandonment.

Those same statistics would reveal most black fathers were present and only a tiny portion were absent. All of the people whom I have heard make the joke using this small stereotype also confess to knowing it is not an accurate representation. They do not wish to change the world, they just want to make people laugh. They also want to live in a world where they can say this, tweet this, forward or like this, whatever, without concern if they could be punished in some way.

The only time words should be actionable is if there is an obvious intent to harm an individual, group or portion of the population. Otherwise words should never be actionable, no matter how insensitive they are, because beyond defying the constitutional right to speak, it would be denying evolution. It was an evolutionary change to the throat and mouth palette that gives homo sapiens the ability to speak beyond just grunts and sounds. In the words of Stephen Hawking:

"For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. But then something happened, which unleashed the power of our imagination. We learned to talk and we learned to listen. Speech has allowed the communication of ideas, enabling human beings to work together to build the impossible. Mankind's greatest achievements have come about by talking, and its greatest failures by not talking. It doesn't have to be like this. Our greatest hopes could become reality in the future. With the technology at our disposal, the possibilities are unbounded. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking."
Unorthodox wrote:
Luvers666 wrote:
If someone were to say, "How many police officers does it take to change a light bulb? None! They would just shoot the room for being black!" does not mean they are a bigot.
:lol: I don't think that was the greatest example, because the punchline says more about cops than black people.
I think it hits directly onto the point. You agree that police brutality exists and is disproportionately against black people. It logically follows that to fix the problem of police brutality, black people do not need to change a single aspect of who they are so as to avoid it, the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the police... I must say, blaming the victim is so much worse than telling a silly joke, even if it is obviously racist.
Unorthodox wrote:
Yeah, I don't buy for a single second that there's much of a statistical correlation between skin color and other biological features, as that implies you could predict bone density/skull size/etc solely based off of someones skin. Fuck- I know for a fact my own bone density/skull shape/etc is different from various white people, albeit this is pretty anecdotal.
Yes, you can tell most of these aspects based on just the skull. To an untrained eye a human skull is a human skull, however there are slight variations to each of the three types of craniums. Your skull could not possibly be different enough to warrant a separate classification and still be human. It is just not possible. I know in science it is forbidden from saying that but just like I can safely conclude that there are no Leprechauns, you have the same parameters in your skull as every single Caucasoid before you and do not possess a Mongoloid or Negroid skull.
Unorthodox wrote:
Like sure- certain groups of people from various parts of the world might have distinctive characteristics that have developed over the years from being in whatever particular region they're in, and that could also pair with a certain type of skin color. But there's plenty of people from other regions with other biological characteristics with that very same skin color.
You do realize that an anthropologist can view just the pelvic bone and tell if it is male or female, right? Just the pelvic bone can also reveal the persons height, weight, potential child bearing and even the age all within very high levels of probability. The reason the skeleton says so much about the body it belongs to is because the outside will only ever be what it is because of that skeletal structure. Since all available evidence says it is a prerequisite of life to travel abroad, it is easy to answer how people of similar skin tones could be so widely diverse.
Unorthodox wrote:
When I hear catch phrases like "immediate African ancestry" when discussing biological characteristics, I think about what "immediate European ancestry" looks like.
It is not a catchphrase. Immediate Ancestry is used when describing someones strongest genetic marker. My father was Dutch and mother was Puerto Rican so regardless of what each family side had many generations before, my Immediate Ancestry would be Dutch and Puerto Rican.

If we want to get technical here every single human being is African because that is where the oldest homo-sapiens have been traced. You personally contain extremely little African ancestry because you are from an entirely separate batch of humans, as was every single one of your ancestors. Your father, grandfather, great grandfather, great great grandfather, great great great grandfather, great great great great grandfather, etc... were like of European ancestry, which is why you possess biological features found entirely or mostly in Caucasians.
Unorthodox wrote:
Do Italians and Germans and Norwegians have extremely similar biological characteristics? Aside from all being homo sapiens, which literally implicates 99% of the genome being the same, nah, there's clear differences between them all. Do they have the same skin color? Yeah. So is the skin color correlated to the various biological differences? Nah.
Of course they do, all three would be of European descent and would all be listed as a Caucasoid. Despite the differences caused by external factors, most of what takes place on the exterior of an animal is determined during embryological development. More so than anything else, you are whatever your skeleton is.

- Also stating that each would be a homo-sapiens I cannot tell if you are being serious or just screwing with me. Every homo-sapien is a multiple eukaryote cellular organism - which have a nucleus(Domain) - with an internal digestive tract to ingest and digest other living organisms(Kingdom), a chordate(Phylum) that is warm blooded, with hair follicles, mammary glands(Class), hind leg dominance, opposable thumbs, forward facing binocular eyes and fully enclosed eye sockets(Order) that is part of Hominoidea(Family). Unless you find a human being that fails to fit that very specific description of specificity, there is no real reason to point out that they are all homo sapiens.
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Luvers
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:41 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Races are made up shit. Ethnicities can be shown in the genome, races are just arbitrary categories based on appearance.

There isn't even a difference in skin colour, all humans have the same skin colour, we just have more or less of it. You can see it by looking for little blue veins on a white person and a darker person, you only see them on a white person, because the white person is the same colour but simply at lower density so more light gets through.
An individual's skin pigmentation is the result of their biological parents' genetic makeup, and exposure to sun. It evolved to regulate the amount of ultraviolet radiation penetrating the skin, controlling its biochemical effects. Skin color is affected mostly by the substance of pigment melanin. Melanin is the main determinant for darker-skin while light skin is determined mainly by the bluish-white connective tissue under the dermis and hemoglobin circulating in the veins of those dermis.
droneriot wrote:
Not just generally but entirely, it's completely made up. Blacks are black because of more sunshine. East Asians have higher cheekbones because they live West of a big ocean that dumps more rainfall making their food softer. None of it means anything. Put a bunch of Varg's offspring in Africa and they'll be black in a couple of generations, put a bunch of Varg's other offspring (plenty of it in his little shack) in East Asia and they'll have higher cheekbones in a couple generations, in turn put a bunch of Robert Mugabe's kids in Norway and they'll get light skin in a couple generations, our same species adapts to its surroundings but remains the same species.
I am pretty sure every field of science just facepalmed at your level of certainty here. It would be significantly longer for the descendants of Varg to even begin darkening, let alone becoming the opposite color. There is also a great deal amount that goes into why Asian's have elevated Zygomatic bones, which is less about how much wind they receive and more about their course through evolutionary history. I admit you did mention that when you brought up the way the weather affects their harvesting.

I am not sure your 'scientific' research is valid if the scientific undertaking of the human skull included the word cheekbone. What is known colloquially as a cheekbone would never be included in a scientific journal. The scientific name for it is the Zygomatic bone and while it predominately makes up this feature, there is also a slight fusion of the Zygomatic with the Temporal Arch which formulates the outside socket for which a binocular eye is enclosed. When these two bones fuse, it creates a stress point that on a Mongoloid skull is smaller by 2.1 millimeters to a Caucasoid and 3.1 to a Negroid. Mongoloids have more adipose tissue but smaller range of fusion, which makes their eyelids longer and with slightly less depth.

I am sorry for the long posts but the subject of biology is simply fascinating.
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kalervon
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:45 am 
 

droneriot wrote:

P.S. I'm not sure a couple of generations would suffice to turn someone from porcelain to charcoal shade. Australians with European descent are still white; how many generations that would be? Maybe Indians or Indonesians could be a suitable example from switching slowly from white/yellow to darker, brown shades.

It would never ever happen. We have houses now, hats, sunscreen, better clothes, offices, etc. We also have hospitals, vaccines, salaries, supermarkets, etc. The selection processes that resulted in the traits we know today with relatively isolated groups are now irrelevant.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:46 am 
 

Osore wrote:
P.S. I'm not sure a couple of generations would suffice to turn someone from porcelain to charcoal shade. Australians with European descent are still white; how many generations that would be? Maybe Indians or Indonesians could be a suitable example from switching slowly from white/yellow to darker, brown shades.

At least, unlike someone else, you have the sense to not read "a couple" as a fix number. Every field of science would facepalm at trying to pick and choose what you want to strawman into someone's post when the person has deliberately left out countable numbers. Suffice to say it takes a while. Another non-quantifiable term. A long while.

Luvers666 wrote:
It would be significantly longer for the descendants of Varg to even begin darkening, let alone becoming the opposite color.

Nobody turns the opposite colour. Everybody stays the same colour that we all are. Your melanin isn't lighter than an African's, an African's isn't darker. Fluffy white clouds and dark grey clouds are also made of the same stuff of the same colour. Water also isn't any less translucent a hundred meters under the surface just because you can't see what's there from the surface. Try not to get all worked up about my "scientific research" when it's basic middle school stuff that everyone should remember if they bothered to keep school stuff in mind beyond the next quiz/test/exam.
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Osore
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:12 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
At least, unlike someone else, you have the sense to not read "a couple" as a fix number. Every field of science would facepalm at trying to pick and choose what you want to strawman into someone's post when the person has deliberately left out countable numbers. Suffice to say it takes a while. Another non-quantifiable term. A long while.

I read it as "a few" which in my native language is "nekoliko" and that means more than one but probably ~5.

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Osore
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:24 am 
 

Luvers666 wrote:
I am not sure your 'scientific' research is valid if the scientific undertaking of the human skull included the word cheekbone. What is known colloquially as a cheekbone would never be included in a scientific journal. The scientific name for it is the Zygomatic bone and while it predominately makes up this feature, there is also a slight fusion of the Zygomatic with the Temporal Arch which formulates the outside socket for which a binocular eye is enclosed. When these two bones fuse, it creates a stress point that on a Mongoloid skull is smaller by 2.1 millimeters to a Caucasoid and 3.1 to a Negroid. Mongoloids have more adipose tissue but smaller range of fusion, which makes their eyelids longer and with slightly less depth.
Thanks for reminding me of that bone name, I was too lazy to open a source that I had to use for memorising bones of a sheep's skull (all in Latin). Even if I did, I wouldn't be able to know which one corresponds to "cheekbones" in people, that's not my field.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:34 am 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
That's fair, but realize I'm not trying to give the "oh well the left is fucked AND the right is fucked up! They're all fucked! Politicans are fucked! They're all corrupt!" argument :lol:.

In this instance, it's not logically consistent to simply say that one side uses jokes to masquerade their beliefs while the other doesn't. Sorry, they both do it. Whether one belief is worse than the other is entirely irrelevant in this context.


I mean I don't know about killing them, but any landlord that evicts people during this crisis is unmitigated human shit for sure, hope people can at least agree that's a fucking dick move.
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