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gasmask_colostomy
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 5:38 am
Posts: 1020
Location: Behind the wall of fire v.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:41 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Not just generally but entirely, it's completely made up. Blacks are black because of more sunshine. East Asians have higher cheekbones because they live West of a big ocean that dumps more rainfall making their food softer. None of it means anything. Put a bunch of Varg's offspring in Africa and they'll be black in a couple of generations, put a bunch of Varg's other offspring (plenty of it in his little shack) in East Asia and they'll have higher cheekbones in a couple generations, in turn put a bunch of Robert Mugabe's kids in Norway and they'll get light skin in a couple generations, our same species adapts to its surroundings but remains the same species.

Now I’m waiting for a TV show where Varg raises Robert Mugabe’s children and vice versa, all the while racing to see who can change their adoptees’ skin colour first.
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kalervon
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 800
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:07 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Every field of science would facepalm at trying to pick and choose what you want to strawman into someone's post when the person has deliberately left out countable numbers. Suffice to say it takes a while. Another non-quantifiable term. A long while.


People have been polite. You still don't seem to get how what you said shows a total lack of knowledge of the processes involved in basic evolution theory as it has been known since Darwin.

Your kid doesn't get born with darker skin because of the high amount of time you spend in the sun before you 'make' him.

Obviously, if you have a kid with someone that has darker skin than you, though, that kid will have darker skin than you. But that's not the point you were attempting to make.
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Osore
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
Posts: 362
Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:39 am 
 

Yes, acquired traits are not heritable. Changes in somatic cells don't just "jump" to germinative cell line. It takes time, and might never happen. Things get more complicated with epigenetics involved and soma>soma inheritance, but that's not the case for skin colour.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:34 am 
 

kalervon wrote:
People have been polite. You still don't seem to get how what you said shows a total lack of knowledge of the processes involved in basic evolution theory as it has been known since Darwin.

Your kid doesn't get born with darker skin because of the high amount of time you spend in the sun before you 'make' him.

Obviously, if you have a kid with someone that has darker skin than you, though, that kid will have darker skin than you. But that's not the point you were attempting to make.

What you are saying has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. If your reading comprehension is that bad do not ever participate in a forum discussion.

I mean look at how incredibly ridiculous your post is. You are coming here claiming that I said white people have black babies, which is the absolute stupidest thing anyone could possibly say and you are the one who said it.

And yeah, don't be "polite" for my sake, if you want to make an ass of yourself you should not hold back.
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Tekdeth
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:32 pm
Posts: 206
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:58 pm 
 

I'm currently binge-watching Bus Invaders episodes on YouTube. Most of these are really entertaining and they barely get any views. There's an episode for pretty much all of my favourite bands, so I have a lot to watch. Archspire's episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntYUZcGnDJU) is great. I'm currently watching Allegaeon's episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAYl3uejsZc) and it's pretty hilarious. A metal-scented air freshener? play-doh flavoured twizzlers? lol.
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kalervon
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 800
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:15 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
And yeah, don't be "polite" for my sake, if you want to make an ass of yourself you should not hold back.

i'm not being polite, those who pointed out how wrong you are were.

In trying to make your case you wrote stuff like "Food you eat changes your jaw". Every single thing you wrote points to a lamarckian understanding of evolution. Go and delete it if you want. That's my last intervention on this topic.
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Osore
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:55 am
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Location: Serbia
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:31 pm 
 

Quote:
Changes in the technology of food preparation over the last few thousand years (especially cooking, softening, and grinding) are hypothesized to have contributed to smaller facial size in humans because of less growth in response to strains generated by chewing softer, more processed food.
Lieberman DE, Krovitz GE, Yates FW, Devlin M, Claire MS. Effects of food processing on masticatory strain and craniofacial growth in a retrognathic face. Journal of human evolution. 2004 Jun 1;46(6):655-77.

"Food you eat changes your jaw" is true, once again, those changes obviously became heritable in animals with jaws, which is why wolves and deer have different teeth and jaw structures.
It is not true in a strict Lamarckian scenario of passing your environmentally changed jaw structure to your children.

However, there are a lot interesting things in the vast field of molecular and phenotypic evolution, which is a course I had at university. I've forgotten a lot, but I keep it at hand just in case, although I deal with physiology and cell biology.

Quote:
Genetic assimilation is a process by which a phenotype originally produced in response to an environmental condition later becomes genetically encoded via artificial selection or natural selection. Despite superficial appearances, this does not require the (Lamarckian) inheritance of acquired characters, although epigenetic inheritance could potentially influence the result.


https://evolutionnews.org/2014/03/ghost_of_lamarc/
Look up at eco-evo-devo concepts and soma>germ inheritance, it's fascinating.

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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 1893
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:48 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Unorthodox wrote:
That's fair, but realize I'm not trying to give the "oh well the left is fucked AND the right is fucked up! They're all fucked! Politicans are fucked! They're all corrupt!" argument :lol:.

In this instance, it's not logically consistent to simply say that one side uses jokes to masquerade their beliefs while the other doesn't. Sorry, they both do it. Whether one belief is worse than the other is entirely irrelevant in this context.


I mean I don't know about killing them, but any landlord that evicts people during this crisis is unmitigated human shit for sure, hope people can at least agree that's a fucking dick move.


It's complicated. I don't think they're being senseless pieces of shit who have little to no compassion for their tenants, but I do think the pain of their burdens could come crashing down on their tenants. Landlords have a mortgage, property taxes, insurance, and maintenance to pay. They don't want to foreclose on their properties, and the money has to come from somewhere.

Imagine you paid your down payment (principle) and got your loan to buy an investment property. You still have the loan (mortgage) to pay off (with everything else), and the profit you've collected in rent still isn't equal to the principle you put down (in other words, you haven't made any money, you're going to eventually, but it's going to take some time). Then the crisis comes, and a whole bunch of your tenants can't pay the rent. You can either

A) Pay off the mortgage/insurance/taxes/maintenance with outside funds during the crisis (unlikely)
B) Foreclose on your property and be a lot less wealthy than you were going into the thing (likely)
C) Evict your tenants in order to find new ones that can help you pay your expenses (likely)

The biggest problem with this all is that if enough landlords stop paying their mortgage, the banks that issue these mortgages could be in a pinch very similar if not worse than the 2008 financial collapse, which could cascade into a world of hurt 10x worse than the country is currently in. The slow climb towards the eviction crisis is simply another sign of the complete ineptitude in our government. There should be a long-term mortgage freeze, because if there was landlords wouldn't feel the pressure to collect rent. Doesn't mean the other expenses would disappear, but the biggest one would, which could alleviate some of the pressure on both the landlords and the tenants.

This crisis exacerbates the problems we already had in this country. Housing crisis, wealth inequality, etc. It all is so glaringly obvious that even former libertarians like Mark Cuban are changing their tune about their ideological views on the market.


Luvers666 wrote:
Yes, you can tell most of these aspects based on just the skull. To an untrained eye a human skull is a human skull, however there are slight variations to each of the three types of craniums. Your skull could not possibly be different enough to warrant a separate classification and still be human. It is just not possible. I know in science it is forbidden from saying that but just like I can safely conclude that there are no Leprechauns, you have the same parameters in your skull as every single Caucasoid before you and do not possess a Mongoloid or Negroid skull.


You wrote a lot, but this basically is the crux of your argument. And ya know, after looking through some pubmed, I'll have to take back a degree of what I previously said- bone density/skull size/etc could predict ethnicity. But that said, I still think it's really hard to predict race (similar but different from ethnicity in that with race we're simply talking about skin color and ethnicity where talking about the origin of a particular person or group of people).

Furthermore, we're becoming such a heterogeneous, international species that simply looking at bone structures to predict ethnic background is going to become more and more difficult, to the point that doing such studies will be pretty worthless. Not only that, but race will be increasingly more complicated to predict.

For example, you say your father was Dutch and mom was Puerto Rican. I'd imagine there's a chance that you're not white then, that many people would categorize you as "brown". But what if your pelvic bone is shaped like someone with the immediate ancestry tracing back to Europe? Wouldn't that be a bad predictor on your race then?

(edited for mispelling of the word "tenant", god dammit I'm awful at spelling :lol:)
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Last edited by Unorthodox on Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:30 pm 
 

I think that thread about Facebook and neo-Nazis got nuked into non-existence, which is the first time in ten years on this site I can recall such a thing happening. Any attempts to get back to that thread through my browser history result in a message saying "You are not authorized to view this".
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:37 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
This crisis exacerbates the problems we already had in this country. Housing crisis, wealth inequality, etc. It all is so glaringly obvious that even former libertarians like Mark Cuban are changing their tune about their ideological views on the market.


That's about the main issue - we already had all these problems. The government could've easily fixed it through trimming budgets off the military or whatever else and taxing the rich way more. They could freeze rents. All of it is arbitrary and we're just brainwashed to think it has to be this way. The money is there and when it isn't, it's all just imaginary stuff we agree to live by; it doesn't have inherent meaning on its own.

I stand by what I said though. Fuck any landlord that evicts anybody, especially now.
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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:25 pm 
 

Well, to be fair, I definitely vibe with that sentiment ;). Especially when tenants are literally just caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This video I found absolutely shocking, a perfect example of how obvious the wreckage is in our economy. Larry Summers is the neolibs of the neolibs, and some of the shit he is saying would've been seen, by him, as "socialist garbage" a year ago. These guys are catching onto what social democrats have been screaming about for years.
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matras
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:52 pm 
 

But... but ... but ... the president says the US economy is the best it's ever been!!???

Just kidding

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8283
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:37 am 
 

Subrick wrote:
I think that thread about Facebook and neo-Nazis got nuked into non-existence, which is the first time in ten years on this site I can recall such a thing happening. Any attempts to get back to that thread through my browser history result in a message saying "You are not authorized to view this".

Yeah, we actually decided to bring it back after all. The reason it was gone was because we had concerns about the original poster's motivations. The discussion was fine, though, so it's back now.
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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:54 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Subrick wrote:
I think that thread about Facebook and neo-Nazis got nuked into non-existence, which is the first time in ten years on this site I can recall such a thing happening. Any attempts to get back to that thread through my browser history result in a message saying "You are not authorized to view this".

Yeah, we actually decided to bring it back after all. The reason it was gone was because we had concerns about the original poster's motivations. The discussion was fine, though, so it's back now.


Bringing it back has provided me with my day's highlight - a bizarre rant about how someone's screenname (priestofiron) is obviously fascist. Pointing out a couple of quite well known bands likely referenced therein is also fascism.

I love watching politics happen to other people :lol:
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last_eulogy
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:58 am 
 

Does anyone here listen to Sirius? I've been listening to Marky Ramones Punk Rock Blitzkrieg a lot lately. It's on 712 and he plays a ton of old punk. Discovered a ton of new punk bands from this station.

I was going to make an entire Sirius thread, but I wasn't sure if the mods would frown on it and if anyone would respond.
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Tekdeth
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Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:32 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:58 pm 
 

I've been listening to music at 2x speed on YouTube for the last half an hour, and now I'm listening to Archspire at regular speed and it sounds like it's in slow motion. It's a very odd experience.
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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:33 pm 
 

My old best friend from high school confirmed he has covid. He announced it in a really self pitying woe-is-me facebook status because he was exposed on the 5th, got tested on the 7th, and then "played the odds" because everybody else he knew came back negative. So while he was waiting he decided to go to a wedding and a tourist attraction. He's all sad because he's been "trying so hard" by working out and finding religion and everything, but I've known the guy for 16 years, I can tell you that he's selfish. He works out so he can win a trophy, he finds god so he can feel less guilty about treating people poorly in the past. I think he truly believes in his heart that he's trying to put other people first but his myopic worldview prevents him from ever actually doing so, and every time consequences come around to bite him he does this performative self flagellation about how terrible he is and can't ever do the right thing exactly like how an abusive partner would.

Maybe it's unfair for me to be mad at the guy for getting sick but how fucking hard is it to just be safe?
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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:57 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
My old best friend from high school confirmed he has covid. He announced it in a really self pitying woe-is-me facebook status because he was exposed on the 5th, got tested on the 7th, and then "played the odds" because everybody else he knew came back negative. So while he was waiting he decided to go to a wedding and a tourist attraction. He's all sad because he's been "trying so hard" by working out and finding religion and everything, but I've known the guy for 16 years, I can tell you that he's selfish. He works out so he can win a trophy, he finds god so he can feel less guilty about treating people poorly in the past. I think he truly believes in his heart that he's trying to put other people first but his myopic worldview prevents him from ever actually doing so, and every time consequences come around to bite him he does this performative self flagellation about how terrible he is and can't ever do the right thing exactly like how an abusive partner would.

Maybe it's unfair for me to be mad at the guy for getting sick but how fucking hard is it to just be safe?

Woah. Well I hope your old friend gets better though.
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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:17 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Maybe it's unfair for me to be mad at the guy for getting sick but how fucking hard is it to just be safe?


Well, on top of that, how hard is to just wait a couple days to get the results back before doing anything? Sounds pretty immature.
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Earthcubed
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:47 pm 
 

In the interest of science and illumination, let us re-imagine BH's (ex-?)friend's scenario with a different disease:

Quote:
My old best friend from high school confirmed he has AIDS. He announced it in a really self pitying woe-is-me facebook status because he had sex with an HIV-positive woman on the 5th, got tested on the 7th, and then "played the odds" because everybody else he knew came back negative. So while he was waiting he decided to go to an orgy and


Okay, so they're not exactly cognate scenarios, but I wonder how many antimaskers and anti-social-distancers might be persuaded if we spoke of COVID in these terms. What do you think, 1%? Twice that?
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Five_Nails
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Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:34 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:35 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
My old best friend from high school confirmed he has covid. He announced it in a really self pitying woe-is-me facebook status because he was exposed on the 5th, got tested on the 7th, and then "played the odds" because everybody else he knew came back negative. So while he was waiting he decided to go to a wedding and a tourist attraction. He's all sad because he's been "trying so hard" by working out and finding religion and everything, but I've known the guy for 16 years, I can tell you that he's selfish. He works out so he can win a trophy, he finds god so he can feel less guilty about treating people poorly in the past. I think he truly believes in his heart that he's trying to put other people first but his myopic worldview prevents him from ever actually doing so, and every time consequences come around to bite him he does this performative self flagellation about how terrible he is and can't ever do the right thing exactly like how an abusive partner would.

Maybe it's unfair for me to be mad at the guy for getting sick but how fucking hard is it to just be safe?


It's not unfair at all. That guy knew exactly what he was getting into and then decided to risk others as well.

I saw some messed up news looking up a former one of the old bunch in my hometown. This guy had been an integral part of my old three-person friend group for years and the next thing we knew things started going missing while two of us started making more friends that have actually lasted longer now than he ever did with us. We had a tight knit until college came up, things got weird before then though.

It wasn't spontaneous, it was across a long set of time but he was good at it and we couldn't really pin thefts on him just yet. He got greedy eventually. That was the first sign of something off. My first memory of something missing was when I lent him a copy of Advanced Wars on the Gameboy Advance SP. He said he lent it to someone else and then kept forgetting about it. He hocked the thing to a group he was more loyal to despite how much scummier that group was, and that group was all in Civil Air Patrol and pretending to be honorable godly boy scouts while I was just starting to embrace being a heathen. Mind you, he was friends with a kid who stole big boxes of Magic cards from Walmart and then graduated to working for a vacation package scam company. Scum all around in that other set.

This kid was home schooled and while my actual best friend ended up in an actual school within a year or so of being home schooled, this other kid was very much under his parents' thumb and always looking for a way to stick it to them. The next thing I know, my absolute best friend's brother (who is the same age as me) is about to beat the kid's face in for stealing his ipod. The kid was conniving, he knew there was an issue with the family he stole from with the missing ipod so he decided to go over to their house after having dental surgery and "find" this ipod under a toilet. My friend's brother didn't believe him but also didn't work that douchebag over simply because this asshole was recovering from surgery. It would have done that fucker a favor.

This wasn't the first time or the last. He also stole my uncle's ipod while we had a party. He even had the audacity to post on Facebook asking how to reformat an ipod because he "just got a new one". This was back around 2008, everyone was on Facebook then. I brought this guy to an extended family member's house, a family member who doesn't trust me at all now and who I honestly look up to, and stupidly trusted the wrong one in my group to represent the circle I had built. Meanwhile, all of us (parents, friends, family) suspected another new person in the group for the crime. We were entirely mistaken.

The kid stole seven PS2 games from me a few years before any of this (back when Linkin Park's 'Meteora' was spinning in my boombox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLHpvjrFpe0). He took only the discs, and I naively blamed it on my downs syndrome cousin who had come for a week long visit after blaming another person who I sided with later on against this conniving kid. Still, those were enough to brush off (I don't forget but I can get over it) while also counting that this cunt was finally away from the group when all of us had the pieces lined up. . . eventually. This guy made sure to spread his scumbaggery out until all of us eventually started talking together about it and finding a nexus. Even friends who I had never expected encountered the kid ended up talking with me about him. That's when I knew it was getting obvious he wanted to get one up on anyone he could find.

Don't get me wrong, we had fun as friends with dumb teenage stuff, had some unforgettable memories. One of the most epic parties before college happened in his parents house. We took pictures of the house, moved all the furniture around, had a ton of people over and tore shit up for a night before putting it all back while totally wrecked. My best friend accidentally poured a bucket of my puke over his head after spending half a night buried in titties. Still, these memories just get sourer with time considering what I know now. My drunken stupid was putting cigarettes, black and milds, and a cigar out on my arms (the scars are still there over a decade later). Vodka made me He-Man (the next day I was bitch-boy and passed out at work). What did the kid in mention do? He decided to dump his girlfriend at the time on the porch of his house after the party was over when we had it all cleaned up before he left for work. I shit you not.

This kid had always talked about becoming a doctor. He couldn't cut it at any reach college and ended up at a state safety school but always saw Dr. Cox from Scrubs as his idol, even wore a white coat for fun when he wasn't pretending to be Solid Snake in airsoft matches where my and my brother's single-shot pistols went up against his fully automatic battery-powered AUG.

Again I shit you not, this stuff actually happened as weird as it is.

He also had a story about a girlfriend who he saw die of cancer that he used to pull at peoples' heartstrings. I guarantee that was made up while he wrote songs about her on his acoustic guitar before we were even sixteen. He had the grades, sure, but he was just too dedicated to being the fucked-up homeschool kid chewing at his repressions rather than striving for something more than getting away with anything he could to satisfy a covered urge.

We got a good sized group of friends together and had breakfast in a little hole in the wall a few years after things had died down, a last chance to bury a hatchet in a way as all of us were getting our lives together and couldn't get crazy as a bunch as much. He stiffed us five bucks when we all threw in at the end with a quick-change move and my brother calculated the tab. I thought that was a good endpoint to knowing that this guy was a terrible person who would never change, but I never expected it to get as bad as it did.

A few years later I saw this kid working at the same place I was. Here he was, a new hire wearing a white coat behind a pharmacy counter playing doctor for money while I was jockeying a register on the other side of the store selling the rest of the store's stuff and being nothing but menial. He was already written off by this time, he just couldn't get it through his head. He decided to tell me, after bumming a cig from me when we both clocked out, that he was dating a freshman at the college I used to attend. A college a state away and even farther from where he was living at the time. This guy was at least 25 at this time and a few months later I heard from my mother that he married this college freshman. It was all over his Facebook and the girl was friending all of his Facebook friends talking about how happy she was. I'm so glad I deleted mine. I didn't even believe that shit was real until my best friend went to their house where the kid tried to make amends. My best friend rebuffed the advance with prejudice, justly so.

That was back in 2015.

I looked up his name online out of curiosity back in November or December of 2018. He moved to another town near the state's capitol with that girl and got nailed by the feds for sharing child porn online. This kid used to be a friend, became less trust-able over the years, but ended up fucking up big time. As of January this year, he's serving six years in federal prison after pleading guilty.

There's a review I wrote for Necrophagist where I described a kid in a black American Eagle shirt getting punched out. That was him, he got blasted in the face the second Dying Fetus started up after getting (what he said was) a gin and tonic while underage. We were both 18 at the time. I should have made him stand there dazed and humbled through Carcass but I left with him because he had his fun ruined while trying to mop up his nose while I headbanged through Suffocation's set as well. That night was mine, it was my 18th birthday present, he never cared about anyone, fuck him!

One more tidbit of his bullshit, he pretended he was the guy who said "what the fuck" in a Carnifex song from 2007
Spoiler: show
because he thought that lie would be endearing. He said that a member of the band went to the same college as him.

As it turns out all the band's members are a decade older than us, also from thousands of miles away, plus Carnifex sucks.

Kid really wanted to be a changeling, really he was just a scumbag who thought being a bit smart made him special enough to burn every bridge he walked on so he could manipulate it back into his preferred shape. Even society doesn't want him anymore, and good fucking riddance.
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gasmask_colostomy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:36 am 
 

I always like how any Five_Nails rant has a few songs specially featured, as if it were a talk-through of a band's career on a radio show. Nice way to get Linkin Park, Carnifex, and The Doors on the same page.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:34 am 
 

Oh boy I haven't gotten to do this in a while!

Five_Nails wrote:
I saw some messed up news looking up a former one of the old bunch in my hometown .... I lent him a copy of Advanced Wars on the Gameboy Advance SP .... that group was all in Civil Air Patrol and pretending to be honorable godly boy scouts while I was just starting to embrace being a heathen .... This was back around 2008, everyone was on Facebook then .... link to a Linkin Park Song) .... I naively blamed it on my downs syndrome cousin .... My best friend accidentally poured a bucket of my puke over his head after spending half a night buried in titties .... always saw Dr. Cox from Scrubs as his idol .... I was jockeying a register on the other side of the store selling the rest of the store's stuff and being nothing but menial .... got nailed by the feds for sharing child porn online ... he got blasted in the face .... he pretended he was the guy who said "what the fuck" in a Carnifex song from 2007 .... plus Carnifex sucks.

....




F_N posts are like Simpsons episodes. You never know where you're going to end up once you start!
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:52 pm 
 

^I may need to revise my story from a few years ago, because after reading that it appears Five_Nails may have dethroned you as "our Homer."
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Methuen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:35 pm 
 

Looks like Britain won't be getting 5G kit for some time - the government just u-turned and booted out Huawei.

The same firm made the kit I use in my house for internet connectivity - I like to think that somewhere there's a Chinese KGB guy being forced to read Delain album review drafts :lol:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-huawei/uk-to-purge-huawei-from-5g-by-end-of-2027-siding-with-trump-over-china-idUKKCN24E30X
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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:39 pm 
 

My understanding was that 5G wasn't yet ready for mass installation because the signal range was too short and too easily interrupted. Did that change or something?
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Methuen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:48 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
My understanding was that 5G wasn't yet ready for mass installation because the signal range was too short and too easily interrupted. Did that change or something?


They'd been laying in their hardware basics - and had contracts & so on sorted. They've also built up a decent presence in older kit, which will need to be ripped out. Fun times ahead !
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Luvers
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:04 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
You wrote a lot, but this basically is the crux of your argument. And ya know, after looking through some pubmed, I'll have to take back a degree of what I previously said- bone density/skull size/etc could predict ethnicity. But that said, I still think it's really hard to predict race (similar but different from ethnicity in that with race we're simply talking about skin color and ethnicity where talking about the origin of a particular person or group of people).
You think race only has to do with skin color? Then perhaps there is a separate explanation for how someone can have a Negroid skeleton, from very dark-skinned Negroid parents, even have Negroid hair follicles but be very light-skinned. Despite every single scientific undertaking proving rather conclusively that skin tone is determined during embryonic development, you want to put it as a social construct?

If you have a child that is of Chinese descent, from parents whom are both Chinese, then even if they were born in America, their ethnicity would change. Every single Asian person who has ever lived is a Mongoloid. Asian is just an arbitrary distinction given because we humans called the land Asia. Why do you think the skull of an Asian person is still different than a Caucasoid or Negroid even if they were born in areas where the majority of the natives Caucasoid?

Because practically every single aspect of your outer area is determined by what is constructed underneath. When it comes to the mixing of those parameters, the defining features are ALWAYS determined by the parents who shares the same gender. If a male Negroid and female Mongoloid produced offspring then the child will inherit the Mongoloid skeleton if the offspring is a girl and Negroid if a boy.
Unorthodox wrote:
Furthermore, we're becoming such a heterogeneous, international species that simply looking at bone structures to predict ethnic background is going to become more and more difficult, to the point that doing such studies will be pretty worthless. Not only that, but race will be increasingly more complicated to predict.
Tell that to an Anthropologist. I would also disagree somewhat on the heterogeneous claim. Homo sapiens have been around for roughly 200,000 years since the oldest known skeleton of one is in Ethiopia and roughly 196,000 years old. So in those 200,000 years they have evolved to have just three distinct skeletons, which again dictates more than anything else how the person will look on the outside, THREE. A great example of a heterogeneous species would be Homo Erectus. Why? Their skeletons and especially their skulls were so incredibly diverse that they had to be so incredibly diverse on the outside. Changes in the skeleton and reproductive systems are extremely rare, so closely related organisms will usually only differ in superficially. Distantly related organisms will require you look deeper to find similarities.

Different type of animals for sure but look at the expansive family of snakes called Colubridae. They are, today, widely dispersed on every continent except for Antarctica, but there have been fossils discovered of them on every continent as well. This is an animal to transverse the entire planet, and if they had obtained the same evolutionary advantages as mammals have, it could have possibly governed the earth like we do. Some Colubridae snake fossils are older than anything in the Homo family, so they literally were here first. There are 249 genera in the Colubridae family but the skeleton of every one is virtually identical but even today, each 249 look so incredibly diverse.

Unorthodox wrote:
For example, you say your father was Dutch and mom was Puerto Rican. I'd imagine there's a chance that you're not white then, that many people would categorize you as "brown". But what if your pelvic bone is shaped like someone with the immediate ancestry tracing back to Europe? Wouldn't that be a bad predictor on your race then?
White as in not black sure but brown would not be accurate either. Mocha would be a more fitting description, and reveals more of the Spanish ancestry. Because, as explained above, the offspring generally takes after the parent who shares the same gender.

As far as the pelvic bone question, no. Maybe I am not explaining this right. I might be a darker shade than others but I am still a Caucasoid, therefore my bones will still be indicative of every Caucasoid who has ever lived. There is a difference between anatomically modern humans and homo-sapien sapiens like we are. When it comes to our specific species, you can only be one of those three skeletons. If you were any other you would not be the same species, barely into the genus Homo, and would barely fit into the family of Hominoidia.

I would conclude that with all of this talk of skeleton it has perhaps gotten lost as to why I brought it up in the first place. You or I, probably everyone else here, would not be able to tell the differences in the cranium bones, only a specialist can do that. My real reason for mentioning all of this stuff is two fold:

1) To point out just how much a tightrope it is to discuss this without being 'racist'. I mean there is empirical evidence that Negroids possess distinct characteristics, which contribute to having distinct abilities and lead to distinct qualities, which could be an indication that they are superior to other races based on that. It is not a mystery to anyone that Negroids have distinctly shaped shin bones that cause them to be faster at sprint running. Ever wonder why the Flanker receiver - who is utilized for strategic long range plays - in football is predominantly black?

2) It is quite liberating to know such information, can provide a mic drop for the subject. No intelligent person challenges the validity of forensic evidence and it provides an accurate explanation for why humans are so vastly different. To be sure, most bigots will not cease their bigoted ways just because of said evidence, but it provides a foolproof rebuttal that puts the onus on bigotry to justify itself. There is no greater tool against bigotry than indisputable evidence to the contrary.

How many outwardly racist people do you think would be able to refute all of the points we have made in this thread?
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:29 pm 
 

Luvers wrote:
Unorthodox wrote:
You wrote a lot, but this basically is the crux of your argument. And ya know, after looking through some pubmed, I'll have to take back a degree of what I previously said- bone density/skull size/etc could predict ethnicity. But that said, I still think it's really hard to predict race (similar but different from ethnicity in that with race we're simply talking about skin color and ethnicity where talking about the origin of a particular person or group of people).


You think race only has to do with skin color? Then perhaps there is a separate explanation for how someone can have a Negroid skeleton, from very dark-skinned Negroid parents, even have Negroid hair follicles but be very light-skinned. Despite every single scientific undertaking proving rather conclusively that skin tone is determined during embryonic development, you want to put it as a social construct?

Ok we're clearly talking past each other. Colloquially speaking, race is about skin color, and in terms of how these things play out in the world, how these words are used colloquially is more important than how they're used scientifically.

Also, the point isn't whether the amount of melanin in their skin is genetic, the point is that the line between being labeled "brown" and "white" is entirely arbitrary, and so therefore race is a social construct. There's no specific measurement of melanin that correlates to being called a specific race, it's up to society to determine what race someone is. If you put some mulatto out in the middle of Ghana, they'd probably call that person white- fuck, you don't have to put them out that far, just put them in a predominately black part of America and they're often labeled as white.


Luvers wrote:
If you have a child that is of Chinese descent, from parents whom are both Chinese, then even if they were born in America, their ethnicity would change. Every single Asian person who has ever lived is a Mongoloid. Asian is just an arbitrary distinction given because we humans called the land Asia. Why do you think the skull of an Asian person is still different than a Caucasoid or Negroid even if they were born in areas where the majority of the natives Caucasoid?

Because practically every single aspect of your outer area is determined by what is constructed underneath.

A "Mongoloid " evolved into the person they were because of the location they were in for thousands of years. So yes, those terms do correlate to their ethnicity, because if you went back for thousands of years, "Mongoloids" predominately centered around a specific location, which had specific cultures and whatnot. Now they're american because they moved, and their daughter is boffing a white guy in his moms basement, producing a half-asian half-white offspring. You think that kid's race is going to be able to be predicted based on his pelvic bone with as much confidence as the previous generations? What if it's a white guys pelvic bone but people consider him asian?

Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. This guy is getting shout outs on YouTube for being a black content creator- but is he black? I don't know- to some people he is. He does have a black parent and Asian parent. But to others, he's asian.

Luvers wrote:
When it comes to the mixing of those parameters, the defining features are ALWAYS determined by the parents who shares the same gender. If a male Negroid and female Mongoloid produced offspring then the child will inherit the Mongoloid skeleton if the offspring is a girl and Negroid if a boy.

I'd love to see the source of this information, because as far as I know predicting a phenotype is a billion times more complex than that. This is like the common myth of "you inherit the hairline of your moms side of the family". Speaking anecdotally, every single one of the men on my moms side were bald by ~20 years old. I'm 27 and still have a head of hair, and basically have the hairline of the grandfather on my dads side.

My guess would be that these sort of produced phenotypes are based on probability, and are not in any way pre-determined.

Luvers wrote:
Unorthodox wrote:
Furthermore, we're becoming such a heterogeneous, international species that simply looking at bone structures to predict ethnic background is going to become more and more difficult, to the point that doing such studies will be pretty worthless. Not only that, but race will be increasingly more complicated to predict.


Tell that to an Anthropologist. I would also disagree somewhat on the heterogeneous claim. Homo sapiens have been around for roughly 200,000 years since the oldest known skeleton of one is in Ethiopia and roughly 196,000 years old. So in those 200,000 years they have evolved to have just three distinct skeletons, which again dictates more than anything else how the person will look on the outside, THREE. A great example of a heterogeneous species would be Homo Erectus. Why? Their skeletons and especially their skulls were so incredibly diverse that they had to be so incredibly diverse on the outside. Changes in the skeleton and reproductive systems are extremely rare, so closely related organisms will usually only differ in superficially. Distantly related organisms will require you look deeper to find similarities.

Anthropologists aren't studying modern humans, they're studying humans that used walking and camels as their main modes of transportation :lol:. Human beings born today (and for the last hundred or some years) are more heterogeneous because of how much we travel, bottom line. Fuck- I'm as white as can be, but somewhere buried in the 19th century one of my great great great great grandfathers boffed a native american and gave birth to my great great great grandmother. That shit wouldn't have happen 500 years ago, much less 1,000 or 100,000 years ago. The amount of rapid change, and the implications it has on a genetic level to our species, is profound. So yeah- we're pretty heterogeneous compared to where we were before the airplane, car, and railroad. The phenotypic ratios between those three various humans is scattered into a wide amount of variation. It's not as simple as it once was.


Luvers wrote:
Unorthodox wrote:
For example, you say your father was Dutch and mom was Puerto Rican. I'd imagine there's a chance that you're not white then, that many people would categorize you as "brown". But what if your pelvic bone is shaped like someone with the immediate ancestry tracing back to Europe? Wouldn't that be a bad predictor on your race then?
White as in not black sure but brown would not be accurate either. Mocha would be a more fitting description, and reveals more of the Spanish ancestry. Because, as explained above, the offspring generally takes after the parent who shares the same gender.

As far as the pelvic bone question, no. Maybe I am not explaining this right. I might be a darker shade than others but I am still a Caucasoid, therefore my bones will still be indicative of every Caucasoid who has ever lived. There is a difference between anatomically modern humans and homo-sapien sapiens like we are. When it comes to our specific species, you can only be one of those three skeletons. If you were any other you would not be the same species, barely into the genus Homo, and would barely fit into the family of Hominoidia.

Ok- sure. If you consider yourself Caucasoid because of your skeleton structure that's probably accurate ;). But, in terms of the colloquial understanding of race, you're likely going to be called "brown", and that designation is entirely created by people's subconscious efforts to categorize people (in other words, it's a social construct).

edit: there was a timestamp on the vid I put in the hyperlink, so I took it off.
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Last edited by Unorthodox on Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kalervon
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:24 am 
 

Luvers wrote:
When it comes to the mixing of those parameters, the defining features are ALWAYS determined by the parents who shares the same gender. If a male Negroid and female Mongoloid produced offspring then the child will inherit the Mongoloid skeleton if the offspring is a girl and Negroid if a boy.

My first impression was that these terms sounded a bit dated. A 10 second research revealed that these 3 traditional 'types' were introduced in the 1780s by members of the Göttingen School of History. I'm not an expert on the subject, but I feel like this is a physics discussion involving phlogiston, caloric and the aether.

Back to this skeleton thing, I'm a male Caucasoid and my daughter's mother is a female Mongoloid (to keep up with the terms introduced), yet, my daughter's skeleton appears quite Caucasoid; though perhaps I should take her to this professor in Germany who discovered a new kind of rays that can photograph bones, for a full picture.
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:45 am 
 

It is considered outdated, nevertheless, I think the overarching premise that Luvers brings up in which people from certain parts of the globe had specific characteristics that were distinct from others isn't too much of a reach. Especially since people migrated a lot slower back in the day.
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Osore
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:42 am 
 

Also, making conclusions about philogenetic relations based only on anatomy and morphology can be misleading. "Distantly related organisms" can be very similar in appearance as a result of convergent evolution, we all know many examples. Like 3 colours of human skin are actually a gradient of shades, there are no 3 types of skeletons.

Baldness is sex-influenced trait, but that doesn't mean the genes from maternal side don't count. It only means that phenotype depends on sex and that you are going to loose much more hair earlier in life if you are male in comparison to a female with the same genotype. This is because baldness is caused when DHT binds to its receptors, and the more receptors you have below your scalp, the more hair you are going to loose. Females have less DHT, which is a "male" sex hormone.

When it comes to sports, I was thought that generally black people are good runners, white are good swimmers and yellow are good lifters, but this is not a rule. I'm a skinny white guy and I'm bad at every one of those things.
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last_eulogy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:19 pm 
 

It's kind of like an app that came out a few years ago. It was able to scan a face and identify the person's sexuality. It could also identify the person's IQ and criminal disposition. It was an actually developed using scientific method by a professor at Stanford and had a low rate of being incorrect. Not politically correct though, so it was quickly chastised.
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Osore
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:47 pm 
 

^ Phrenology is a pseudoscience.

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last_eulogy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:53 pm 
 

Osore wrote:
^ Phrenology is a pseudoscience.
^Phrenology is a different topic. The study of bumps on the head is a completely different topic. This was AI technology developed by Michal Kosinski of Stanford University and has nothing to do with bumps on the head. If you are going to attempt to correct me, please at least do a quick Google search. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/12/artificial-intelligence-face-recognition-michal-kosinski
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Osore
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:11 pm 
 

Sorry, I'm not buying it, unless the app finds your facebook and extracts information from there. In this case, I'm safe as I don't have my photos on the internet.

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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:36 pm 
 

Osore wrote:
Like 3 colours of human skin are actually a gradient of shades, there are no 3 types of skeletons.

With that said though, one of the things I found interesting while doing a bit of snooping around the internet was this experiment which looked at bone density and strength in three distinct ethnic groups. It shows that there is a difference between the various ethnic groups, which is why I took back what I said earlier about these various features providing no evidence for ethnicity. I don't know, maybe the experiment was trash- it definitely does happen. But a lot of the data did have incredibly low SD.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:38 pm 
 

Of course you'd say that, you have the brainpan of a stagecoach tilter!

Image

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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:44 pm 
 

:lol: I was waiting for someone to bring that up, didn't expect it that soon though.
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Osore
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:46 pm 
 

There are differences among different ethnic groups of black people as well: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090536X12000640 (''The data from the Zulu and Ndebele femora suggest that they constitute a separate ethnic grouping.''). I wanted to stress that there are no distinct 3 phenotypes with zero variation in between. I'm sure ''mixed races'' have mixed features.
Having said that in-group genetic variation among black people is higher than out-group genetic variation between them as a whole versus white or yellow people, respectively, I expect for that to translate to bone morphology in the same way. On the other hand, when they take only a sample from South African black people (like in the article I've shared), or from Afro-Caribbean people (as in the article you have provided), and compare them to people of different skin colour, differences are going to be significant (and SD low).

Quote:
Image

Image
Siddiqi N. Comparison of osteometric femoral bone dimensions among the South Africans of different ethnic groups and South African whites. Egyptian Journal of Forensic Sciences. 2013 Mar 1;3(1):8-14.
As an example from the above mentioned article, here can be seen that white people (SAED) differ significantly from black people (represented in red and green), but black people also significantly differ among themselves (red vs green).

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