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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 4674
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:58 pm 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
It sounds ridicolous to me now but at the times i was truly questioning if i would go to hell thanks to music like that, and even at that time i considered myself a pretty rational person... This should be a testament on how strong conditioning and upbringing can be :lol:


Just remembered that I can probably one-up you there in terms of lameness: I felt that way after hearing Cradle of Filth's Nymphetamine (the full version, playing on Milwaukee FM radio of all places) on the radio when I was 14. Back then I just thought it was the most surreal, intense thing ever - obviously I know that whole album is pretty hokey these days, but coming straight from nu-metal and hard rock I had never heard anything that mixed keyboards and melodic passages with "screaming music" and it completely blew my mind. I would sit in my room listening to it and keep turning the radio down out of nervousness but then cautiously turn it back up and listen.

These days I enjoy most of CoF's work other than that awkward Damnation>Thornography stretch. That said, Nymphetamine Overdose still has a nostalgic place for me since it was the first time I heard anything heavier than System of a Down and whatnot.
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Acidgobblin wrote:
In the end- in life- aren't we all sort of wearing corpse-paint in front of a crowd of strangers? Or is that the most pathetic metal-themed analogy ever uttered? I cannot tell, but I feel a bit ashamed now.

NEW Valcove album: https://valcove.bandcamp.com/album/forge

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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1346
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:36 pm 
 

I tried to watch the YouTube 2019 Rewind thing, didn't recognize a single thing in it, but the comment section is... what the hell? This is the most out-of-touch and old I've ever felt. What the hell are kids up to these days?
Things like this

No one:
Absolutely no one:
Joe Rogan: did you hear about that monkey tearing an arm off a guy?

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Xenophon
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:07 am
Posts: 1093
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:01 am 
 

raumr wrote:
I tried to watch the YouTube 2019 Rewind thing, didn't recognize a single thing in it, but the comment section is... what the hell? This is the most out-of-touch and old I've ever felt. What the hell are kids up to these days?
Things like this

No one:
Absolutely no one:
Joe Rogan: did you hear about that monkey tearing an arm off a guy?

That "No one: " way of phrasing that comment is a pretty dumb meme from earlier this year or so.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9330
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:31 am 
 

The race to the top continues:

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ne ... 3540461027


Also, thank you, Samoa:

Samoa has arrested an anti-vaccination campaigner as the country continues to battle a deadly measles outbreak.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50682881

Amazing that people still don't get that your freedom ends where the freedom of others begins when their "freedom of speech" kills people by the dozens.
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aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 2198
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:53 pm 
 

some ppl really have no shame. or functioning braincells.
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PvtNinjer
Veteran

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:45 am
Posts: 3992
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:56 pm 
 

Smoking_Gnu wrote:
Just remembered that I can probably one-up you there in terms of lameness: I felt that way after hearing Cradle of Filth's Nymphetamine (the full version, playing on Milwaukee FM radio of all places) on the radio when I was 14. Back then I just thought it was the most surreal, intense thing ever - obviously I know that whole album is pretty hokey these days, but coming straight from nu-metal and hard rock I had never heard anything that mixed keyboards and melodic passages with "screaming music" and it completely blew my mind. I would sit in my room listening to it and keep turning the radio down out of nervousness but then cautiously turn it back up and listen.

These days I enjoy most of CoF's work other than that awkward Damnation>Thornography stretch. That said, Nymphetamine Overdose still has a nostalgic place for me since it was the first time I heard anything heavier than System of a Down and whatnot.


Thats how i felt about when I first got into BM. I remember getting super baked the first time I heard the emperor demo Wrath of the Tyrant. The way the vocals echoed and general chaotic noisiness was just spooky to me. Same thing with Beherit's Drawing Down the Moon. I remember when I lived alone I was (surprise surprise) getting super baked, put this album and it was definitely giving me some horrible horrible vibes.

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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 4674
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:48 pm 
 

I never listened to much "creepy" black metal back when I smoked regularly, more ambient stuff that I could space out to like Lunar Aurora and Enslaved. Usually saved my "intense trip" playlist for weird synth music, haha.

Also, 666 pages on the MetDisc forum right now. :headbang:
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Acidgobblin wrote:
In the end- in life- aren't we all sort of wearing corpse-paint in front of a crowd of strangers? Or is that the most pathetic metal-themed analogy ever uttered? I cannot tell, but I feel a bit ashamed now.

NEW Valcove album: https://valcove.bandcamp.com/album/forge

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Mellifleur
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Posts: 209
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:43 pm 
 

Listen to some Gloomy Grim while high if you want to be fully spooked. :evil:
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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 5735
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:45 pm 
 

We're still on 'splained class? jesus.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9330
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:07 am 
 

Welcome to the post-The Last Jedi world. This video is based on a post in a Facebook group with "nerd" in the title where you'd expect people to have some decent education, but unfortunately they're Trump supporters who deny reality in every possible way.

Youtube: show
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8002
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:08 am 
 

I fail to see the correlation between that and The Last Jedi, though.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9330
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:15 am 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
I fail to see the correlation between that and The Last Jedi, though.

That movie along with Ghostbusters 2016 became a rallying point for Ben Shapiro types getting into the "scene" for geeky things. I never saw that amount of trash on Star Trek or sci fi forums back in the day.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 27053
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:12 am 
 

It's a shame that those idiots ruin everything. TLJ is great. The Ghostbusters remake wasn't good but also it was just your average lame movie; not like some huge travesty.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4925
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:11 am 
 

Yeah, Ghostbusters was annoying. It wasn't memorable or remarkable in any way, neither as being particularly good nor bad. Just completely forgettable. At least I still remember TLJ. If Rian Johnson had kept his filthy hands off the script it might have been great.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
Posts: 6510
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:12 am 
 

I am forever baffled by the loathing The Last Jedi has aroused. Were people really expecting 60-year-old Luke to act like his teenage self? Did people really think Finn's rickety little ship would even scratch the paint on that doom cannon? Do people really think that mildly-uninteresting 11-minute casino detour was worse than ANYTHING from the prequels?!

Fucking people are fucking stupid. Goddamn!
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:21 am 
 

Some of us watch Star Wars movies to watch lightsabers touch other lightstabers.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 27053
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:24 am 
 

It was just another action blockbuster. A well done one at that. But some people just get really into the whole mythos and all these random little questions of it because of the decades of fandom and whatnot.
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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 7597
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:55 am 
 

dropping in to remind people that Voivod is the pinnacle of Canadian art. Revisited War and Pain and it's still flawless.
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 2863
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:56 am 
 

PhilosophicalFrog wrote:
dropping in to remind people that Voivod is the pinnacle of Canadian art. Revisited War and Pain and it's still flawless.


I don't know, I've heard of William Shatner.
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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 5735
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:46 pm 
 

Last Jedi was an even bigger pile of steaming shit than TFA, and that was a feat unto itself. As a genuine fan of the franchise and EU for the fandom I can not fathom how people are still defending this trilogy. Its the OT Lite, they just went and aped everything they'd done before but made it flashy, as if flashy equals good. There was zero originality, zero character development, trash writing, and every fucking nod to the past they could feasibly cramp into 150ish minutes. And don't even get me started on the hacksaw they took to cannon. Just no.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9330
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:54 pm 
 

I like how the opening crawl basically describes the ending, just without Luke and Snoke.
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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 5735
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:01 pm 
 

I don't even remember it. I bought the movie for the explicit purpose of it being like 5 something hours long with all the bonus content and I liked to leave something playing for my dog when I went out, but he's deaf now so it doesn't matter.
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Man is truly a wretched thing, and the forest is committed to expunging him from existence.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9330
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:03 pm 
 

I think an Audible subscription works far better for that.
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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 4674
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:14 pm 
 

Erosion of Humanity wrote:
Last Jedi was an even bigger pile of steaming shit than TFA, and that was a feat unto itself. As a genuine fan of the franchise and EU for the fandom I can not fathom how people are still defending this trilogy. Its the OT Lite, they just went and aped everything they'd done before but made it flashy, as if flashy equals good. There was zero originality, zero character development, trash writing, and every fucking nod to the past they could feasibly cramp into 150ish minutes. And don't even get me started on the hacksaw they took to cannon. Just no.


Yeah, I'm not even a huge SW fan, but I remember walking out of TLJ thinking "wait, did anything actually happen?" The throne room fight was cool and the final scenes with Luke were cool, but it really knocked down the guarded optimism I had after TFA. I've had to keep reminding myself that the last one is coming out this month.

That said, I understand why they had to ignore most of the EU. It had gotten so labyrinthine that there was no way they could acknowledge it will still making it accessible to new fans. I just wish they didn't end up playing it quite so safe.
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Acidgobblin wrote:
In the end- in life- aren't we all sort of wearing corpse-paint in front of a crowd of strangers? Or is that the most pathetic metal-themed analogy ever uttered? I cannot tell, but I feel a bit ashamed now.

NEW Valcove album: https://valcove.bandcamp.com/album/forge

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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 5735
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:17 pm 
 

My point is the universe is so expansive they could have easily had a trilogy that didn't involve the Skywalker saga or aping the OT. Which is why Rogue One worked so we for me.
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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3932
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:27 pm 
 

Rogue One has been the most boring one for me. That movie was going to succeed or fail depending on the quality of the characters in it - because the storyline certainly wasn't going to carry the movie, and all of them were forgettable.

I know TLJ is often meme'd on for "crapping on the OT" and for subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations but I didn't leave the theater feeling that way. Luke's character shift felt completely believable to me for example. I dunno, to me it was a fun Star Wars movie with some suprising twists and turns. And Disney could have used it to completely divert away from the OT in the third movie. But with a name like The Rise of Skywalker that isn't going to happen lol.

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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3769
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:21 am 
 

Just going to re-post what I said about TLJ:

Quote:
How is Abrams going to wrap up the trilogy with this movie as the middle portion? It seems like it was explicitly designed to reject everything that the last one stood for, and for the most part succeeded in doing so---fatally. Irreversibly. The new director makes the most nagging mystery from the last movie irrelevant and ends two character arcs that Abrams clearly intended to be in the third film.

I mean, I didn't hate the film. But from a chronological and thematic standpoint I don't see how it can coexist in the same canon chronology as episode 7. More accurately, I don’t see how the person who crafted episode 7’s vision can finish it now that said vision has been pretty thoroughly nuked. This would have been better served as a concluding film rather than a middle portion, or---with different characters---as part of a different SW film series.



I still don't see how the third film can address my point here. Regardless of the new film's merits by itself, I don't see how Abrams can reconcile the severe plot and tonal differences between its two predecessors. I feel like they should have just given Rian his own trilogy or stand-alone to play with.
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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
Posts: 5735
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:02 am 
 

Why put effort into it though? You've got to hand it to Disney here, they've got this on lock, they have proven twice now that they can put out steaming piles of shit, slap the Star Wars name on it, and rake in the big dollars. They have no reason to even attempt at making it good. Especially when you have morons using terms like "toxic fans" because people are only allowed to like things now, or something.
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 2863
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:56 am 
 

Erosion of Humanity wrote:
Last Jedi was an even bigger pile of steaming shit than TFA, and that was a feat unto itself. As a genuine fan of the franchise and EU for the fandom I can not fathom how people are still defending this trilogy. Its the OT Lite, they just went and aped everything they'd done before but made it flashy, as if flashy equals good. There was zero originality, zero character development, trash writing, and every fucking nod to the past they could feasibly cramp into 150ish minutes. And don't even get me started on the hacksaw they took to cannon. Just no.



I will be fair to one point I really enjoyed with the new trilogy: Kylo Ren's rage feels very real, very believable, and works for a frustrated, angry, bitter character. The one thing done better here is Ren growing into an ultimate baddie over Anakin's warbling "I'm sad about sand and want to save Padme, so now I'm a child slayer" bullshit.

But this entire new trilogy has felt largely useless. I have no complaints about TLJ's so-called "SJW stuff," but the film itself felt disjointed and lacked an epic feel to it. But that's an overall complaint I have for the new trilogy and any others: Each new story cheapens the original trilogy (4-6). The Death Star wasn't an incredible super weapon to be feared. Each one was just the next in line for a universe that just builds planetary super weapons as a matter of habit. The Solo movie (which I admit, I did not see) reportedly upended the important character arc for Han Solo in the original trilogy. From Rogue to Hero. Now it's just meh. Did we need a movie to see someone gather the plans for the Death Star? Nah.

At this point, the massive, epic struggle and epic story of the original trilogy is little more than a shrug and a footnote in a cinematic universe that just has this shit as normal. While generally awful, I will at least credit Lucas with attempting to grow and expand the universe in the prequel trilogy. It's just too bad he fucking didn't do it.
Youtube: show


Your point about erasing substance for flash, however--that is literally how JJ Abrams works. I've been saying this for years after seeing the hackjob he did with Star Trek. Sure, he grew up on Lucas, Spielberg, Landis, Scorsese, etc., but he has no idea how to make films as strong or as important as anything of their peak eras. He watched Indiana Jones, Star Wars, and the like and had no idea what made those films special. He saw flashy special effects and action and that's what he went with. That's his filmmaking style. (Just as sad that Spielberg and Lucas seemed to forget when Crystal Skulls was cobbled together.)

Rian Johnson at least seemed to attempt to give us strong characters and to do something more original, but ultimately it fell flat. I swear it felt like that tiny Resistance fleet was crawling away for a full hour and a half of film runtime. Killing Snoke in a single stroke? Good, that character fucking sucked to begin with. Abrams, on the other hand, was content to just rehash the original 6 movies in one pretty, action-heavy, but ultimately messy and unimpressive story. Except that Abrams' carried his ego into the film, which I refer to from a Family Guy joke. Abrams is just "Bigger Jaws" in his filmmaking. Throw out logical plotting or originality. He's just going to do something from before and dial it up. Biggerer Death Starrer. George Lucas blew up one planet and gave us an emotional impact for it? Abrams is Bigger Jawsing it. Blow up a whole bunch of planets with no emotional connection. Give the bad guys obvious Nazi colors. It's so fucking trite.

This is how Abrams makes movies:
Youtube: show
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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:30 am 
 

I liked Rogue One because it was a notable tonal difference from the other movies - a gritty (without feeling Grimdark(TM)) war movie showing what the warm bodies were up to while the Jedi and their lucky companions were off having fancy space battles. IMO it showed that you can still work within established stories while allowing the movie's tonal and thematic changes to provide something refreshing and interesting. I think I'm actually with EoH in that it's ended up my favorite of all the new-SW films.
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In the end- in life- aren't we all sort of wearing corpse-paint in front of a crowd of strangers? Or is that the most pathetic metal-themed analogy ever uttered? I cannot tell, but I feel a bit ashamed now.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 27053
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:32 am 
 

There's an argument to be made for the new movies playing it safe and being somewhat unnecessary, sure. They're corporate products first, like the Marvel movies. There are more interesting films out there all the time.

I just think it's dumb to care about canon. If the movie's good I'll be into it. I don't need every single thing to slavishly adhere to "canon."
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Trashy_Rambo
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:04 pm
Posts: 1486
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:04 am 
 

Gotta love being a low wage worker in America. "We only pay you 11.75 an hour, but are somehow surprised that you can't easily obtain a doctor's note! Also the fact that we're chronically understaffed is somehow your problem when you're too sick to work!"
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GuntherTheUndying
Crimson King, Eater of Worlds

Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:36 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:09 pm 
 

Favorite part of the Last Jedi: When Rose Tico crashes into Finn's junker bike-thing to stop him from kamikazing himself into the giant drill, and he asks her why she'd do that, to which she responses, "Because love will save us!" as their friends are literally being incinerated behind them.

Not even going to bother seeing Rise of Skywalker. The magic of Star Wars has long since dried up and the franchise is a joke begging to be put out of its misery. There is no story left to tell, nothing of value to see.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:50 pm 
 

I really liked all of the new Star Wars movies and they definitely still are exciting and fun for me, can't wait to see the new one! :headbang:
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Festivus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:26 pm
Posts: 1402
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:18 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
I tried to watch the YouTube 2019 Rewind thing, didn't recognize a single thing in it, but the comment section is... what the hell? This is the most out-of-touch and old I've ever felt. What the hell are kids up to these days?
Things like this

No one:
Absolutely no one:
Joe Rogan: did you hear about that monkey tearing an arm off a guy?

I miss the 2006-2008 youtube days where the biggest things happening there were the AVGN vs. Irate Gamer fanboy wars and the "leave Britney alone!" guy. Also, the place was a gold mine for complete anime and cartoon series and older wrestling videos as well. And whenever someone would show up their face in a video, they'd just get straight to the point. To think that until 2011 or so a lot of companies still didn't have their own youtube channels. Back then, there wasn't much else to watch on youtube besides what I mentioned above except for old games speedruns and video game OSTs.

I don't see the appeal of most youtube channels. It's a bunch of teenagers and young adults talking about their uninteresting lives and making money off it. I don't hate the player for playing the game, so props for people who are able to exploit youtube's algorithm and find the right clickbaity thumbnail to get hundred thousands of views on their videos. A standard 9 to 5 job can be quite boring, after all. And we live in an era where economic stability isn't something you can take for granted anymore. But I don't understand why so many people want to watch that kind of content. I don't see the appeal at all. Same for the super popular youtubers such as pewdiepie and Logan Paul. Then again, I'm not part of their target audience, so maybe that's why I don't understand.

The only youtuber I like is James Rolfe, aka the Angry Video Game Nerd. Been watching him since 2006. He's like the guy who started the "gaming youtube personality" trend. Sadly he's not as big anymore. Cinemassacre hit 3M subscribers sometime ago... and that's not that much in 2019 for a youtube channel. Back in 2006-2007 James had one of the most popular channels on youtube, and getting 1 million views in a video was something impressive. He used to be a big fish in a small pond, but now he's just another youtuber. Oh well, retrogaming is more of a niche within gaming, anyway.
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Resident_Hazard
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:33 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
There's an argument to be made for the new movies playing it safe and being somewhat unnecessary, sure. They're corporate products first, like the Marvel movies. There are more interesting films out there all the time.

I just think it's dumb to care about canon. If the movie's good I'll be into it. I don't need every single thing to slavishly adhere to "canon."


I care about canon, but can be forgiving if a series makes missteps along the way as writing evolves, most commonly in a TV series. But I also think it's difficult to not care about canon in this day and age, because everyone is building obnoxious cinematic universes. For Marvel movies, we're quite literally dependent on canon going forward. Picking any of several Marvel movies out of order is going to be filled with plotholes or questions that can only be answered by some other film. Rogue One was so half-assed, that if you want character development, you have to read tie-in books.

For instance, I still haven't seen Winter Soldier. Suddenly in whatever movie followed, Buckie showed up and his context makes no sense without seeing that other film. They are making these movies so dependent on canon that many cannot stand alone. The movies, particularly Marvel films, are sometimes cluttered with filler shots to tease or link to films that, at the time, weren't even made. And worse, we end up with garbage like the Amazing Spider-Man 2 and Fant4stick which completely failed on their own because the whole point was building groundwork for canon of movies that never got made.

The heavy cross-canon storytelling even led to the most disappointing part of Spider-Man: Homecoming, in which Spider-Man was no longer a self-made hero. He's largely an understudy of Tony Stark. Yes, they still made up for it in a sense by having him learn to believe in himself and all that, but the character growth was unnatural compared to Raimi's original Spider-Man film.

I'd love to be able to take a movie as is. Too many studios, and Disney's monopoly in particular, will not allow that (yes acknowledging that Fox was responsible for Amazing Spider-Man 2 and Fant4stic).

Ultimately, I think we're all too forgiving of the failures of some of these films because of hardcore, over-whelmingly blind fanboyism. It's the way Star Trek fans accepted Abrams' cinematic abortions because unless we accepted that, we didn't have any new Trek at the time. I'd rather the franchise just stayed dead instead of seeing the garbage it's turning into.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:48 pm 
 

Yeah I agree with you on the Marvel stuff, it's why it's such a weird thing they've built - you have to invest so much time in these that you're totally lost if you miss one or two. It makes for a very different filmgoing experience. I remember reading somewhere that films are becoming more like TV and TV more like film - blending everything together and creating a very different experience taking in media. It's certainly different.

However I just don't care if some new adaptation does things differently. If the new Star Wars doesn't acknowledge the books, or if Spider-Man's origin changes to him becoming an understudy of Stark, that isn't inherently a negative to me. It only depends on the quality therein.
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Erosion of Humanity
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:12 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:43 pm 
 

GuntherTheUndying wrote:
Favorite part of the Last Jedi: When Rose Tico crashes into Finn's junker bike-thing to stop him from kamikazing himself into the giant drill, and he asks her why she'd do that, to which she responses, "Because love will save us!" as their friends are literally being incinerated behind them.

Not even going to bother seeing Rise of Skywalker. The magic of Star Wars has long since dried up and the franchise is a joke begging to be put out of its misery. There is no story left to tell, nothing of value to see.


This is one of the events that sticks out strongest in my mind when I think of all the idiotic bullshit that movie employs. I'm just gonna stop commenting because I don't feel like jumping that far down the rabbit hole.
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Resident_Hazard
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:50 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Yeah I agree with you on the Marvel stuff, it's why it's such a weird thing they've built - you have to invest so much time in these that you're totally lost if you miss one or two. It makes for a very different filmgoing experience. I remember reading somewhere that films are becoming more like TV and TV more like film - blending everything together and creating a very different experience taking in media. It's certainly different.

However I just don't care if some new adaptation does things differently. If the new Star Wars doesn't acknowledge the books, or if Spider-Man's origin changes to him becoming an understudy of Stark, that isn't inherently a negative to me. It only depends on the quality therein.


You're talking about that wider canon of "all the books and comics and such as well," then. In that regard, I generally agree. I think having Peter Parker as an understudy of Stark diminishes the stand-alone strength of the character, while Raimi's version (which itself altered canon with how he shot webs) felt like a much more natural hero story arc. I never cared about any Star Wars book, and now they're being written to be plot hole filler, which is basically an admission that the films are lackluster or pointless. I did, however, enjoy the Shadows of the Empire story from the N64 game.

Personally, I enjoy universe building, so if the specific media is in the same format and then falters badly, that's when I become more of a stickler for canon. The Stargate (TV) universe was built over 15-17 years through SG-1, Atlantis, and Universe, and tended to maintain a strong in-universe, in-media canon which added to the fun.

Star Trek once had a fairly static universe from TOS through Enterprise, where Enterprise itself ended up being well used as hole filler for various technology changes in set design and effects. Klingons looked different in the original series than they did in the movies and every other series. DS9 made a one-off joke about it, but Enterprise filled in those holes with actually decent stories, strengthening the universe. The Abrams movies exist on their own, so they don't matter. But the new Discovery series attempts to squeeze into the same universe as the existing Trek canon and instead of fitting in, it creates a plethora of new damages that fuck up the entire thing. That kind of thing bugs me and I think Star Trek would have been better served simply going another generation forward.

I'll note that nothing has a more fractured canon, arguably, than Transformers (of which I am a big fan), which has numerous different universes, series, and timelines. Many of which overlap, and indeed, at one time, they attempted to incorporate some characters who not only acknowledged the mulitverse, but existed uniformly among them. This appears to be a narrative idea Hasbro has since scrapped because it was a nightmare to keep in order. In Transformers fandom, typically, we have to take canon with a grain of salt.

Not to mention that DC comics created Crisis on Infinite Earths to coordinate the countless restarts and reinterpretations of their iconic characters. I didn't personally experience this, but was informed by DC comics fans what a fucking nightmare that was. This is apparently becoming part of one of the DC comics shows or movies (or both), which I only learned about yesterday.
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Mellifleur
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:31 pm 
 

Star Trek fans have the advantage over Star Wars fans because while SW fans have to deal with the fact that in the official canon there are now more bad than good movies, ST fans are protected by the backlog of hundreds of good episodes over multiple series so no matter how bad STD or Picard series end up being the good will continue to outnumber the bad for a good long while. You Transformers guys are just doomed though, that shit makes the history of the real world seem straightforward by comparison. :P
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