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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:25 pm 
 

Note that that title is the most sarcastic thing I could possibly think of.

So for those not paying attention, the United Kingdom is currently in the middle of the most absurd nonsense imaginable in the form the Brexit negotiations. The major things that have happened in the last month include Parliament voting down the agreed upon terms of exit between Theresa May's government and the European Union in the single largest defeat for a government in UK history. This was followed up by a vote of no confidence the next day, which, despite the defeat of the Brexit agreement being led by Tory MPs, resulted in a majority in favor of May (but only a slight majority of 19), because the Conservatives did not want to risk the possibility of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn becoming Prime Minister. The big thing that's holding up any potential deal now is the proposed Irish backstop, which would basically mean that there can be no hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Just today, May's government lost another big vote in Parliament that would've given her extra time to negotiate further with the EU as it relates to that backstop. The vote doesn't actually mean anything concrete, but it again weakens the May government's negotiating power with the EU in general. The backstop question is kind of a convoluted trade situation mixed with trying to make sure Ireland doesn't descend back into civil war, so I'll just quote Vox on this:

Quote:
May’s government lost this vote on Thursday because the hardcore Brexiteers — those who really want to abandon the EU and all of its rules — in her party abstained from voting.

They’re angry with May because, they argued, her motion potentially rules out a no-deal Brexit and weakens the UK’s negotiating power when it comes to the Irish backstop.

The Irish backstop is an insurance policy to prevent border checks between Northern Ireland (which is part of the UK) and the Republic of Ireland (which is an independent country that’s also an EU member state) if the UK and EU can’t agree on the terms of a future trade relationship after Brexit.

That’s because an open border is a key part of the 1998 peace agreement that ended decades of conflict in the region. There are serious concerns that if customs checks and other barriers go up on the border as a result of the UK leaving the EU — and thus no longer being part of the EU customs union and single market that allows for free movement of goods and people — that tensions could reignite.

The backstop, then, basically says that if EU and UK struggle to agree to the terms of their future relationship after Brexit, the UK will simply stay in close alignment with EU customs regulations. That way, both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland would be operating under the same rules and regulations for trade and thus there wouldn’t be a need for customs checks at the border.

The hardcore Brexiteers hate this, though, and see it as trapping the UK in a relationship with the EU indefinitely, and so they don’t want any sort of binding backstop in any Brexit deal.


So at this point, the likely scenario is that March 29 will come and there will be no deal in place, leading to a hard exit for the UK from the EU and causing all sorts of economic chaos in that country. As someone who is not from the UK but has been paying attention almost every step of the way, it's pretty safe for me to say that Theresa May is the single most ineffectual, useless PM in history. Her own party has no real confidence in her, and only voted for her in the no confidence vote so as to keep Labour out, because Labour would most likely just cancel the whole damn Brexit thing anyway and stay in the EU.

Either way, everyone else in an EU country is just laughing right now at how stupid this all is.
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ambientsorrow
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:25 am
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:40 pm 
 

I think the last Brexit thread got locked pretty early for whatever reason. Dunno why since there is a US political thread.

But anyway, UK is fucked to put it bluntly. An absolute shitshow. But eh, "BREXIT MEANS BREXIT." "WILL OF THE PEOPLE."

I can barely sit through an article on without getting miserable over the whole thing. It's pretty evident that the only people that want Brexit to go through are the politicians, media corporations and the old fossils that couldn't care less about the younger generation. For the most part I know of quite a few that initially voted leave and now hate the idea of it with a lot of the nonsence since the vote a few years back.

Completely unprepared for it and they won't at least consider extending a50. There should be another vote or the whole thing called off.

Have a read at this: https://medium.com/@carole_cadwalladr/a ... a569f6516a

Beggars belief how unproffesional and ignorant some people in power are.

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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:02 am 
 

Brexit became a thing for much of the same reason Trump as president became a thing; Old white people pushing the narrative that nebulously evil brown people that aren't from here and shouldn't be here are gonna come steal your jobs, rape your women, and blow things up. Racism and xenophobia pays massive dividends for right wing political ideologies. At least the UK public is at a point where almost literally just about everybody is fucking sick of Brexit and wants it to go away and not happen now that they know just how screwed they will be when it does go through (and it's already had some pretty crappy effects on the British economy since the referendum anyway). A large portion of the American population still thinks Trump is doing a good job, which is absolutely fucking mindboggling to anyone with a eyes.
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PaganiusI
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:23 am 
 

And after the Brexit, the UK states declare their independence and rejoin the EU on their own killing the last bits of the British Empire's leftovers.
Scotland's preparing a referendum from what I heard and I really hope they get that through before Brexit happens.
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severzhavnost
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Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:09 pm 
 

Not buying all this doom n gloom about Brexit. They’ll be fine! Pulling out of the EU, with or without Theresa May’s godawful regulation-without-representation proposal, will not transform Britain into the Hermit Kingdom.

Here’s a list of all the countries and regional blocs that benefit from either an Association Agreement, Free Trade Agreement, or Economic Partnership Agreement with the EU, despite obviously not being members:

Spoiler: show
Customs Union
• Andorra
• San Marino
• Turkey

Association/Stabilisation/FTA/EPA (Economic Partnership Agreement)
• Albania
• Algeria
• Southern Africa Development Community (8 countries)
• Chile
• Egypt
• Georgia
• Iceland
• Israel
• Japan
• Jordan
• Kosovo
• Lebanon
• Liechtenstein
• Moldova
• Montenegro
• Morocco
• North Macedonia
• Norway
• Palestine
• Serbia
• South Korea
• Switzerland
• Tunisia

Global Agreement
• Mexico


And all those with agreements currently pending negotiation:

Spoiler: show
Association/FTA/EPA (Economic Partnership Agreement)
• CARIFORUM (14 countries)
• Cameroon
• Canada
• Colombia
• Cote d’Ivoire
• Costa Rica
• Eastern & Southern Africa (6 countries)
• Ecuador
• El Salvador
• Ghana
• Guatemala
• Honduras
• Nicaragua
• Pacific States (4 countries)
• Panama
• Peru
• Ukraine


Y’all really think Great Britain won’t be able to negotiate a deal as good as those achieved by such economic and political luminaries as Zimbabwe, Cameroon and North Macedonia? Come on now!
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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:02 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Not buying all this doom n gloom about Brexit. They’ll be fine! Pulling out of the EU, with or without Theresa May’s godawful regulation-without-representation proposal, will not transform Britain into the Hermit Kingdom.

Here’s a list of all the countries and regional blocs that benefit from either an Association Agreement, Free Trade Agreement, or Economic Partnership Agreement with the EU, despite obviously not being members:

Y’all really think Great Britain won’t be able to negotiate a deal as good as those achieved by such economic and political luminaries as Zimbabwe, Cameroon and North Macedonia? Come on now!


This!

But then again I'm pro-Brexit. However the campaigning during the elections were atrocious and how its been handled since has been a mess. But will they be fine? Of course they will. I always said they will feel some economic consequences in the immediate aftermath but I also believe the ability to rule their own country will be positive in the end.

I know a lot of the campaigning had to do with immigration but I actually think the main point of contention is the way the EU has become more and more like a United States of Europe. Less and less power are given to the individual countries to rule themselves and of course its the always impopular notion that people don't like to help other people who doesn't make an effort to help themselves (read: the economic crisis of Greece for example).

Can I see the benefit of the EU in some ways? Sure I can. But as an overall project I think it is the wrong direction to take. I don't know about media elsewhere but in Sweden every political party in the Swedish riksdag is anti-Swexit except the left wing party that claims to be for a swexit in the long haul (but they don't really do anything towards that goal). So naturally all we read about is how stupid the British must be for voting for Brexit.

In the end it will be fine, and while I really have no big opinion on Trump, I do think Brexit will lead to them thriving once the initial separation pains have been deal with. Generally the countries outside of the EU are doing fine. In some cases better than comparable countries within the EU.

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PaganiusI
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:49 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:10 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Y’all really think Great Britain won’t be able to negotiate a deal as good as those achieved by such economic and political luminaries as Zimbabwe, Cameroon and North Macedonia? Come on now!

They can't even agree on their negotiation strategy, let alone a deal!
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47245992

I'm sure they will someday get a proper deal once the waves of the actual Brexit smooth out and they start going back to routine work, but for now it doesn't look like they'll have a deal ready before they reach the deadline..
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:55 pm 
 

Paganius, you are right. It’s very unlikely there will be any agreement in place by the end of March. But again, the anti-Brexit crowd are painting that short term upheaval as the end of the world, which it won’t be. They’ll muddle through and be better for it down the road.
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Cobweb
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:20 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:38 pm 
 

I don’t get it, is eu all undemocratic rat ear or something and might vote for a non rat ear in Uk, I don’t know why you ear pin, your opinion is an ear

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Cobweb
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Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:20 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:43 pm 
 

Vox? wish I had all the money they spent on ostioplasty top down! I’d buy a ranch, and a forge


Last edited by Morrigan on Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Member banned (permanent) for a long history of incoherent trolling.

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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:43 am 
 

John Oliver has finally returned. And Brexit III is the immediate story.

Youtube: show
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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:16 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
John Oliver has finally returned. And Brexit III is the immediate story.

Youtube: show

Came to post this. Man, what a shitshow.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:10 pm 
 

I'm still amazed they would accept such a colossal decision and massive change to be determined on essentially 2% of the vote. In any other real scenario, 2% is the fucking margin of error. Brexit passed on a margin of error.

That alone should have been cause to delay and set up a new vote. If baffles me that the people running that shitshow could be so fucking stupid.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:22 pm 
 

Not to mention it was clear from the start that the vote would essentially be England fucking over the rest of the UK.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:33 pm 
 

Following the razor-thin results of secession referenda in Quebec in 1980 and ‘95, Canada has set a bar of a constitutional supermajority for any future votes on that issue. However, since Britain did not think of putting limit on the Brexit vote, complaining about it now is an attack on the democratic process - unless there is reason to believe the results were improperly counted.
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:52 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Following the razor-thin results of secession referenda in Quebec in 1980 and ‘95, Canada has set a bar of a constitutional supermajority for any future votes on that issue. However, since Britain did not think of putting limit on the Brexit vote, complaining about it now is an attack on the democratic process - unless there is reason to believe the results were improperly counted.


Per my understanding, misleading advertising, propaganda, and outright lies clouded the issue badly. The John Oliver clip I linked above showed rampant ignorance among the voting public on exactly what the hell Brexit even meant, let alone an understanding of the consequences. With all of that in mind, I don't think it would be an attack on the democratic process, but an understanding of system flaws that need re-evaluation.

Even without the reports of outside interference, propaganda, misleading information, public ignorance, and general confusion, that 2% margin of error should have given them serious pause.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:55 am 
 

Shifty politicians preying on the ignorance of the public... how is that different from any other election? If we made results contingent on the voters being properly informed, the system would grind to a halt. Sorry if that sounds too cynical, but it’s just the nature of the beast.
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:11 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Shifty politicians preying on the ignorance of the public... how is that different from any other election? If we made results contingent on the voters being properly informed, the system would grind to a halt. Sorry if that sounds too cynical, but it’s just the nature of the beast.


That isn't necessarily cynical, so long as it purports to equate to different things. A politician lying is par for the course. Outside meddling and deliberate propaganda seem to worsen normal issues.

But as I said, even without all of this, a majority percentage that handily falls into margin of error territory is not something anyone should take so confidently. No scientific study would be taken seriously if the results could be skewed by margin of error. That's just an example, there's no need for a petty argument about how "politics isn't science." This is just to point out how fucking stupid officials in the UK are for thinking this was a good decision based on a 51.9% percentage.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:46 pm 
 

Surely there wasn’t any foreign influence in favour of Britain staying in the EU... oh wait:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44331013 It would appear that our old friend George Soros was at it again!
But about the margin of victory, well, a simple nationwide majority was the rules they went with. So they’re stuck with it now. Announcing a second, “real” vote now, adding a more serious threshold like Canada has for Quebec like I mention above, would be roundly derided as moving the goalposts.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:12 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
It would appear that our old friend George Soros was at it again!

Trump in the White House, UK out of the EU, Austria and Poland ally with Orban, the guy must really, really suck at the conspiracies he's accused of.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:26 pm 
 

Hey, he wins some, he loses some :p I wasn’t even looking for Soros’ name to pop up in that article, but there he is for anyone who cares to read it.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:47 pm 
 

In hindsight I think it should have been a double-referendum. 1st referendum = Brexit - Yes or no? 2nd referendum = if yes, hard Brexit or soft Brexit? The second might have spared a lot of embarassment for everyone involved.

Of course before the first referendum, the Ireland problem should have been properly discussed, because that's a big issue. Hard border means the Northern Ireland troubles might resume. Soft border means Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc can continue to evade UK taxes from Ireland.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:17 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Surely there wasn’t any foreign influence in favour of Britain staying in the EU... oh wait:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44331013 It would appear that our old friend George Soros was at it again!

Robert Mercer says hi.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:06 pm 
 

droneriot: I’d argue that a soft Irish border is more likely than a Hard Brexit, to cause strife in Northern Ireland. It could make the Unionists feel like they’ve been betrayed by London. They could see it as a sly way of allowing more Dublin influence in the North. Not that I really think that’ll happen either; but if I had to choose which form of Brexit is more worrisome for the Ulster issue, I’d worry more about the ambiguity of a half-ass Brexit

darkeningday: a pissing contest over which side was more supported by foreign pressure, is not constructive. There is no reasonable way to completely insulate public opinion from outside manipulation.
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drterror666
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:51 am 
 

Once Brexit happens, how people will deal with it depends on how much money you earn. The rich will sail through the turbulence with no problems, but the people on lower wages will suffer, even if it is in the short term, however long that will be. The fact is that our currency is dropping against the Euro, prices are going up and, once triggered, the pound is going to crash like never before. On a personal note, I'm really beginning to feel the pinch.

But, don't worry, I'm sure we'll all be fine in the end...

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InnesI
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:44 pm 
 

drterror666 wrote:
Once Brexit happens, how people will deal with it depends on how much money you earn. The rich will sail through the turbulence with no problems, but the people on lower wages will suffer, even if it is in the short term, however long that will be. The fact is that our currency is dropping against the Euro, prices are going up and, once triggered, the pound is going to crash like never before. On a personal note, I'm really beginning to feel the pinch.

But, don't worry, I'm sure we'll all be fine in the end...


In all fairness I think we need to think long term and indeed ride out the turbulence. I believe this will lead to you being stronger in the long run where there is more control closed to the people of your countries. And I do think the horror scenarios being painted, like the pound crashing to a never before seen low, are scare tactics (much in the same way much of the campaigns before the vote were based in fear).

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:05 pm 
 

Financial markets don't ride out turbulences. They're the center of it.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:13 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
I believe this will lead to you being stronger in the long run where there is more control closed to the people of your countries.

On what are you basing this?
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:27 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Financial markets don't ride out turbulences. They're the center of it.


Well, I think you know what I meant.

darkeningday wrote:
InnesI wrote:
I believe this will lead to you being stronger in the long run where there is more control closed to the people of your countries.

On what are you basing this?


Since we haven't had examples of countries leaving the union we can't but go on feel and of examples of countries who are not members. If we look at Norway and Switzerland they are in very good positions within Europe based on their ability to rule their own country to a much larger extent at the same time as they are on good foot with the EU and can reap some of the benefits it provides (without being dragged down by the rest of the bureaucracy and power hungry creation of a United States of Europe).

It is quite clear that breaking free from the EU will mean that the country will be more closely controlled by the inhabitants in said country. Getting rid of centralized European politics - having Brussels decide on things they probably have no business in deciding.

I also think it is a good thing to not be connected to every other country the day when it all falls apart, like in the financial crisis some 10 years ago or so. I think that had the risk of being very dangerous to all of Europe when the banks generally were saved (except on Iceland!) despite them, as I understand it, being the perpetrators (and all that followed with, for example, Greece).

And the UK doesn't need anyone else. It has the powers to stand on its own legs. I can understand that some smaller countries with bad economies can benefit from the EU but the UK ain't one of them. They will be fine standing outside, being strong on their own. I don't really see much indications as to why they wouldn't be able to stand strong.

But I'm far from an expert of course and only time will tell how things develop.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:34 am 
 

Norway and Switzerland also have free movement agreements with the EU which was the thing Leave voters specifically campaigned against and would riot against if they were made.

About the rest of your post, funny enough, one of my friends voted Leave but would love a United States of Europe - a functioning central government instead of that "neither here nor there" mishmash that turned into the bureaucratic behemoth it is now because nobody really has any clue who is in charge of what. The EU has nothing to do with any United States of Europe idea, they are completely different concepts and saying one leads to the other is simply nonsense. For a United States of Europe to exist, the EU would need to disband entirely and completely with all its institutions abolished and something new created from zero.
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drterror666
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:39 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
drterror666 wrote:
Once Brexit happens, how people will deal with it depends on how much money you earn. The rich will sail through the turbulence with no problems, but the people on lower wages will suffer, even if it is in the short term, however long that will be. The fact is that our currency is dropping against the Euro, prices are going up and, once triggered, the pound is going to crash like never before. On a personal note, I'm really beginning to feel the pinch.

But, don't worry, I'm sure we'll all be fine in the end...


In all fairness I think we need to think long term and indeed ride out the turbulence. I believe this will lead to you being stronger in the long run where there is more control closed to the people of your countries. And I do think the horror scenarios being painted, like the pound crashing to a never before seen low, are scare tactics (much in the same way much of the campaigns before the vote were based in fear).


This sounds like pro-Brexit optimism. Riding out the turbulence will be easier if you have an abundance of money, as I said, but I represent the British people down here on the ground, who don't make that sort of money, who have been watching the prices going up and up; I'm not exactly looking forward to where this is going. Also, the pound crashing when Brexit happens is not a scare tactic, as it's going to happen. OK, I don't know how low it will go, but low it will go all the same.

This has been covered many times already, but how this campaign has been handled has been a complete travesty right from the beginning and I agree that fear tactics were used, especially by the right wing, to push people in the 'right' direction. I could go on about this, but it's a bit too late now, as Brexit will happen in one form or another.

Oh, and if I hear May say she's only carrying out the will of the British people again, I think I'll pop!!!

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InnesI
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:03 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Norway and Switzerland also have free movement agreements with the EU which was the thing Leave voters specifically campaigned against and would riot against if they were made.

About the rest of your post, funny enough, one of my friends voted Leave but would love a United States of Europe - a functioning central government instead of that "neither here nor there" mishmash that turned into the bureaucratic behemoth it is now because nobody really has any clue who is in charge of what. The EU has nothing to do with any United States of Europe idea, they are completely different concepts and saying one leads to the other is simply nonsense. For a United States of Europe to exist, the EU would need to disband entirely and completely with all its institutions abolished and something new created from zero.


We'll see what happens with the free movement if there will be agreements in place or not. I think the most important thing is that you are once again able to decide for yourselves about your own borders. That alone is a win. But of course I see the other side of it as well. I used to be an immigrant in England and of course this might have effected me. Many of my friends, still in London, are worried. I don't think they have to be but I definitely understand their worry.

About EU as a United States of Europe (of course a term that is heavily generalizing) I think it is moving in the direction of a more strong centralized power. It has been moving in that direction for a good while now. More decision making happens in Brussels and they want even more to be relocated there slowly taking away the idea of sovereign nations. The latest big move is the whole debate on internet traffic, copyright and how free the internet should be.

The EU changes its shape and I don't believe it would have to disband at all. It can just shift its shape and its focus like its been doing throughout its existence. The ECSC is nowhere near what the EU is today and still it is part of the same movement.

drterror666 wrote:
This sounds like pro-Brexit optimism. Riding out the turbulence will be easier if you have an abundance of money, as I said, but I represent the British people down here on the ground, who don't make that sort of money, who have been watching the prices going up and up; I'm not exactly looking forward to where this is going. Also, the pound crashing when Brexit happens is not a scare tactic, as it's going to happen. OK, I don't know how low it will go, but low it will go all the same.

This has been covered many times already, but how this campaign has been handled has been a complete travesty right from the beginning and I agree that fear tactics were used, especially by the right wing, to push people in the 'right' direction. I could go on about this, but it's a bit too late now, as Brexit will happen in one form or another.

Oh, and if I hear May say she's only carrying out the will of the British people again, I think I'll pop!!!


Well, that's what all politicians tend to say isn't it? ;-)

And yes, it is pro-brexit optimism. What I meant about scare tactic is just what was written before, that the pound will absolutely crash, that there will be loads of unemployment and that the UK will suddenly decide to throw out anyone not British by birth. Those are scare tactics much like, as you say, the right wing used scare tactics in the way they won the election.

It can be interesting to debate these things but we're honestly so close to Brexit that we might just as well wait and see how it actually affects the countries in Britain.

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drterror666
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Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:15 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
droneriot wrote:
Norway and Switzerland also have free movement agreements with the EU which was the thing Leave voters specifically campaigned against and would riot against if they were made.

About the rest of your post, funny enough, one of my friends voted Leave but would love a United States of Europe - a functioning central government instead of that "neither here nor there" mishmash that turned into the bureaucratic behemoth it is now because nobody really has any clue who is in charge of what. The EU has nothing to do with any United States of Europe idea, they are completely different concepts and saying one leads to the other is simply nonsense. For a United States of Europe to exist, the EU would need to disband entirely and completely with all its institutions abolished and something new created from zero.


We'll see what happens with the free movement if there will be agreements in place or not. I think the most important thing is that you are once again able to decide for yourselves about your own borders. That alone is a win. But of course I see the other side of it as well. I used to be an immigrant in England and of course this might have effected me. Many of my friends, still in London, are worried. I don't think they have to be but I definitely understand their worry.

About EU as a United States of Europe (of course a term that is heavily generalizing) I think it is moving in the direction of a more strong centralized power. It has been moving in that direction for a good while now. More decision making happens in Brussels and they want even more to be relocated there slowly taking away the idea of sovereign nations. The latest big move is the whole debate on internet traffic, copyright and how free the internet should be.

The EU changes its shape and I don't believe it would have to disband at all. It can just shift its shape and its focus like its been doing throughout its existence. The ECSC is nowhere near what the EU is today and still it is part of the same movement.

drterror666 wrote:
This sounds like pro-Brexit optimism. Riding out the turbulence will be easier if you have an abundance of money, as I said, but I represent the British people down here on the ground, who don't make that sort of money, who have been watching the prices going up and up; I'm not exactly looking forward to where this is going. Also, the pound crashing when Brexit happens is not a scare tactic, as it's going to happen. OK, I don't know how low it will go, but low it will go all the same.

This has been covered many times already, but how this campaign has been handled has been a complete travesty right from the beginning and I agree that fear tactics were used, especially by the right wing, to push people in the 'right' direction. I could go on about this, but it's a bit too late now, as Brexit will happen in one form or another.

Oh, and if I hear May say she's only carrying out the will of the British people again, I think I'll pop!!!


Well, that's what all politicians tend to say isn't it? ;-)

And yes, it is pro-brexit optimism. What I meant about scare tactic is just what was written before, that the pound will absolutely crash, that there will be loads of unemployment and that the UK will suddenly decide to throw out anyone not British by birth. Those are scare tactics much like, as you say, the right wing used scare tactics in the way they won the election.

It can be interesting to debate these things but we're honestly so close to Brexit that we might just as well wait and see how it actually affects the countries in Britain.


Well, we'll have to agree to disagree :)

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Malbordus
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:46 am
Posts: 54
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:38 pm 
 

I'm still not convinced that anything is actually going to happen. The only parliamentary majority is to state things they don't want rather than be in favour of any deal. In March there will be a vote on May's deal (again) which will be defeated (again), then there will be a vote on taking No Deal off the table, which will pass. At that point, extending the deadline is the only political move left for the government assuming the EU plays ball. But what then? There remains no parliamentary majority for any kind of Brexit, just for some nebulous "fulfill the wishes of the people" Brexit. So... throw it back for another referendum because the career politicians can't do their jobs basically, or have a general election again.

Or maybe it will happen - Irish reunification is probably the outcome for this, then the border can be in the sea. Meanwhile Scotland, having just voted to remain part of the Union will also seek to leave since it very much didn't vote for this. The Brexiteers can hardly argue they are stronger outside of one Union while arguing that others should remain in their one.

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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1339
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:21 am 
 

Malbordus wrote:
I'm still not convinced that anything is actually going to happen. The only parliamentary majority is to state things they don't want rather than be in favour of any deal. In March there will be a vote on May's deal (again) which will be defeated (again), then there will be a vote on taking No Deal off the table, which will pass. At that point, extending the deadline is the only political move left for the government assuming the EU plays ball. But what then? There remains no parliamentary majority for any kind of Brexit, just for some nebulous "fulfill the wishes of the people" Brexit. So... throw it back for another referendum because the career politicians can't do their jobs basically, or have a general election again.

Or maybe it will happen - Irish reunification is probably the outcome for this, then the border can be in the sea. Meanwhile Scotland, having just voted to remain part of the Union will also seek to leave since it very much didn't vote for this. The Brexiteers can hardly argue they are stronger outside of one Union while arguing that others should remain in their one.


My first thought when I heard who won the vote was that they would find some way out of it. It just had that kind of a feel to it. Especially with the pressure from the media and the very vocal disappointed voters in the large cities. With time I've become less sure of it but it wouldn't be the first time politicians didn't heed the call of an election.

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acid_bukkake
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:48 am 
 

Malbordus wrote:
Meanwhile Scotland, having just voted to remain part of the Union will also seek to leave since it very much didn't vote for this. The Brexiteers can hardly argue they are stronger outside of one Union while arguing that others should remain in their one.

The few friends I have in Scotland are vocal about wanting to leave the UK and have been since before Brexit. Considering the last "leave" vote was thisclose and they've decided to stay in the EU, it's going to be very interesting for them to say the least.
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quickbeam
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:09 am
Posts: 134
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:31 am 
 

It's not really discussed outwith Scottish political nerds, but I think there might be some interesting legal shenanigans when it comes to crunch time. It is an age-old dispute about which bodies legally represent the two separate kingdoms which formed the UK - Scots law and English law have always been kept separate, and the countries are still recognised as different internationally, to a certain extent (and that's before you add Wales and Northern Ireland - the UK is certainly an odd case).

International politics is, of course, all about who recognises what, so we have really no idea how things will play out. However, it has been obvious to keen observers in the last couple of years that, while the Westminster government has been trashing their relationships in blundering and infuriating ways, the Scottish government has been playing extremely friendly with other countries. And they have publicly stated that Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against its will.

It would be funny as fuck if Scotland stopped Brexit on a technicality - the English would want their own independence referendum!

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acid_bukkake
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:35 pm 
 

That would certainly be two birds and one stone, and I don't doubt that Scottish independence leaders are well aware of that possibility.
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Subrick
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:21 pm 
 

And the newest deal from May has been voted the fuck DOWN.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... fe8e38b546

Quote:
Three years after Britain voted to leave the European Union, lawmakers have failed to agree on how to do it.

Parliament overwhelmingly rejected Prime Minister Theresa May’s revised Brexit deal on Tuesday in a vote of 391 to 242 — a loss of 149 ballots. The defeat for May and her government was total.

Last-minute negotiations with the E.U. were not enough to secure the support of hardliners in the prime minister’s own Conservative Party.

With her vision for Brexit defeated for a second time, Parliament will now vote Wednesday on whether to leave the E.U. on schedule, on March 29, without a deal — a scenario that could create economic chaos for Britain and, to lesser degree, Europe.

If lawmakers want to keep trying for a managed withdrawal, as is most likely, they will vote Thursday on whether to request a delay from E.U. leaders, who suggested they would grant an extension, but have warned that their patience is not infinite.
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droneriot
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Posts: 8978
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:51 pm 
 

If EU zombie muppets vote yes on the new copyright law that's basically about abolishing the economy and living like Zimbabwe or Venezuela then Brexit wins.
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