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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:57 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Why would this be the cause of the riot vs everything else so far :thinking emoji:


Maybe because for 24 months he's been to Trump what James Schlesinger was to Nixon for about half a month?

I love these sort of snide comments about Mattis. He's the primary reason "everything else so far" managed not to include open war in Korea (which quite plausibly could have gone nuclear, by the way) and the only reason it didn't include assassinating foreign heads of state, but you know, Theranos was bad and stuff. Diplomats and elected officials throughout the world literally prayed for his health because they knew the kinds of things he was preventing but you know, the transgender ban was bad and stuff. Like, Mattis actually talked Trump out of invading Venezuela but sure, sending troops to the border makes him unforgivably bad or something (never mind that he made sure most of those troops were unarmed).

Are you of all people a kind of natsec accelerationist who thinks Mattis was a sustaining enabler and it will all be fine once it gets bad enough for people (Congress? voters?) to stop Trump? Even if that was true, the stakes in foreign policy are quite a bit higher than anything Trump could plausibly try domestically.

Any and all of the awfulness that happened under Mattis in the past two years, whether by his will or because he was overruled? That was the calm before the storm.[/quote]


While we can be fair and note that Mattis evidently kept Trump from going nuclear both figuratively and literally a number of times, he'll still be around through the end of February. After which time, Democrats will control not only the House, but hundreds of other offices nationwide, which greatly curbs Trump's ability to do much of anything (by which I mean that there are more people all over who can put up local stops, interruptions, and headaches to anything he wants to do). This man is so inept at politics, he couldn't even get an all-Republican federal government to agree on all his bullshit. Now, his support structure is slashed, and gaining two or three offices in the Senate is heavily offset by the 30+ that went to Democrats in the House.

The only things Trump is actually good at is funneling money into his coffers through legally questionable channels and conning people out of money. When it comes to politics and how government works, he's completely impotent. Yeah, losing Mattis might be bad. He'll be replaced by a House that will be piling on the pressure.
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:34 am 
 

I fail to see how resigning because Trump pulled out of Syria and Afghanistan could be anything but a sign that Mattis himself is a warhawk...

That said, the House won't be able to do shit, and I have every confidence that Mattis's replacement will be many magnitudes worse.

Still, though. You really think things will get even worse for the next two years? I just don't see Trump being smart enough to start a war.
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GTog
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Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:48 pm 
 

The incoming Democratic House will do nothing. They have no reason and no desire to give Trump any kind of victory, or anything that looks like he might kind of try to take credit for it. They will spend the next two years building a paper trail to establish their new "progressive agenda", aka "impractical things that seem to impress millennials". Nothing of any substance has any hope of passing the Senate, much less getting signed by the President. But they'll do it anyway, just so they can go into 2020 plausibly claiming that it's only the dastardly Republicans that stand in the way of progress.
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:10 pm 
 

If the only thing you get out of Mattis' resignation is that he's a warmonger angry we not bombing Syria anymore then I'm not really sure there's much to talk about. Have fun hoping that John Bolton will be the dam in the river now. The only reasons Congress isn't in a full-blown panic right now are that they're in the middle of shutdown crisis and Mattis on paper is here until February.

I wasn't exaggerating about him being Trump's Schlesinger, either. Believe it or not, the position of Secretary of Defense is not in the nuclear chain of command on paper. Mattis is one of only two secretaries to insert themselves into that chain of command. Once he's gone it will go back to the usual order.


darkeningday wrote:
Still, though. You really think things will get even worse for the next two years? I just don't see Trump being smart enough to start a war.


Nixon once drunk-dialed a tactical ("limited") nuclear strike on North Korea. You need to be smart to plan a war; you don't need to be smart to start a war. Being impulsive works fine in that regard.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:02 am 
 

The resignation was primarily born out of Mattis's disdain for Trump's callous (putting it mildly) procedure and impetuousness though, right?

I'd already come to the conclusion that "Mad Dog" Mattis was maybe possibly probably a bit of a hawk. The Woodward book made it sound like blunting Trump's desire to push the red button was a group effort, like it was something most of the White House was in agreement on, unless Mattis was some sort of BTS puppet master (which I guess wouldn't be all that shocking given this admin). If Mattis was the sole stopgap between peace and an apocalypse, a man driven almost exclusively by his allegiance to his country and his god, why in the everloving fuck would he resign over procedural frustrations?

Please don't think that just because many people on the left aren't flipping their shit right now, that means they hope for an illegal war "to own the cons." Anyone who'd even wish for that deserves to be kicked out of the country. Accelerationists can FOAD.
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:44 am 
 

Mattis wasn't the only stopgap but he was the last one left. It's pretty much nothing but sycophants and desperate mediocrities now.

And this Syria decision goes way beyond procedural issues. Blowing up a 70-odd nation coalition because of one conversation with a tyrant (to whom your APNSA has plead guilty to secretly working for) is not just a process issue. Damning what is arguably your closest ally in the region, closer even than Israel, to a probable massacre for no strategically discernible reason is not just a process issue. Particularly not when you're essentially inviting longstanding adversaries of the US to take what's left.

Just read the resignation letter again, closely. It's about the most diplomatic way of publicly stating the wheels are off and nobody can restrain, guide, or teach the child in the driver's seat.


As a side note, everyone's focusing on Syria but Mattis was a major reassurance to a host of leaders in east Asia. Not just obvious allies but even adversaries and frenemies like China. He was someone they could talk with to figure out what the hell was actually going on.

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nestee8
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:05 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:35 pm 
 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... spartandhp

As much as I'd like this guy out of office, if he does get impeached and Pence takes over, he will make our troops stay in the Middle East.

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GTog
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:38 am 
 

^ I don't think that works as an anti-impeachment argument anymore. "Or else we'll get Pence", I mean. Yes he's a fanatic and a weirdo, but his kind of crazy I feel is manageable.
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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:09 am 
 

Not to mention Pence is up to his neck in the corruption, and if he manages to escape, he'll be too petrified to lift a finger for fear of being in the spotlight.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:28 am 
 

A year or so with Pence would be unpleasant but the odds of him winning a national election on his own merits seems very unlikely. The man has the charisma of a wet blanket.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:12 am 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
A year or so with Pence would be unpleasant but the odds of him winning a national election on his own merits seems very unlikely. The man has the charisma of a wet blanket.



That's really not fair to wet blankets, which can still serve a purpose. But I'd have to agree, as much as I'd loathe Pence as an actual president, I don't think he'd get much accomplished. He's more restrained than Trump, so he'd be too desperate to try to get elected, even though he's woefully unlikable and awkward. On top of which, he's as embroiled in the corruption as Trump, so for him to somehow get out of this clean is almost unthinkable. Even if he does somehow manage to escape an indictment or something, he'll saunter in as a lame duck president and he'll have that stink hovering over him when he tries to run on his own.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:58 am 
 

Just saw something on a German news site about what Manafort is accused of lying about, and apparently it was something like giving Trump election campaign information to an associate of the Russian secret service, and something about making a more Moscow-friendly policy on the Ukraine conflict. Since it's in German I can't give you a link and it's not on BBC, which is what I read for international news, but that German news site I read used to be the German branch of CNN so it's probably there.

I don't think anyone has any illusions about media liking to put their spin on it, but it still sounds like bona fide treason material thinking about it.
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hakarl
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:02 am 
 

I also saw it on Yle (Finland's national public media). I didn't see anything on The Guardian, which I read regularly, but NY Times has it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/us/p ... imnik.html
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Cobweb
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:37 pm 
 

Trump, a international hero for the world! Favourite leader since Steven Harper

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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:18 pm 
 

Today was, I'm pretty sure, a first: in the middle of a government shutdown, the government shut down again. We're in an appropriations-related shutdown (the one you all know about), and then on top of that OPM shut down the government due to weather. Shutdown².

What a hell of a way to start the year. :lol:

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MARSDUDE
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:53 pm 
 

Cobweb wrote:
Trump, a international hero for the world! Favourite leader since Steven Harper


Is that a joke, or have you ventured into unironic hilarity?
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:53 pm 
 

Yeah, I'm still on the OPM mailing list. So many businesses in DC are tied up so closely with the feds that if the government shuts down for inclement weather, most of those business also close for the day. Those businesses were the bulk of our clients in my old job, so if they were closed there wasn't a whole lot of productive work we could do, either, so we just followed the OPM guidelines like most people in DC. So yeah, I'm sitting there at work in 45 degree weather when I get the email that if I still lived back in the DC area I'd be having the day off. Bastards!

I honestly have no idea how this shutdown is going to play out. My best guess is the national emergency route followed by a legal battle to stop that from happening.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:55 am 
 

Trump finally has his "big, huge" milestone in his so-called presidency. He now has given us the longest government shutdown in American history. While he's doing this, his approval and support among his base is finally slipping.

He's being sued now by multiple government workers for missed pay with a twist on the 13th Amendment, which makes slavery illegal.

Finally, the shutdown itself is just plain bad for every facet of America, and a losing proposition for Trump. A funtabulous "doomsday scenario" is outlined here.

Included in the Doomsday Scenario are:

If the worst were to happen, experts say the devastating impact would be widespread:

38 million low-income Americans lose food stamps (as a note, a large number of these people are supposedly Trump supporters)
6 million face an uncertain timetable for collecting tax refunds
2 million without rental assistance and facing possible eviction
800,000 paycheck-less federal employees plunged into dire financial straits
Shuttered parks and museums while overstressed airports cause tourism to tank
Federal court system slows to a crawl
Disaster relief money doesn't get to storm-ravaged areas
Lapsed FDA and EPA inspections lead to dangerous outbreaks
Private companies looking to go public are stuck in limbo
Stock market plummets


That Trump threatens to keep this going for "months or years" would effectively mean the United States has a non-functioning, practically 3rd world country. It's amazing that after two years, this fucking moron still finds ways to be an even bigger pile of shit.
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GTog
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:26 pm 
 

The main barrier here is Mitch McConnell. A bill to reopen the government has passed the House, and will also pass the Senate, but Mitch won't bring it to a vote. His claim is that the President won't sign it anyway, so why bother. But we already know that's a bullshit line to take, because he even stalls bills that the President will sign, like the criminal reform bill a month ago. He won't bring anything to the Senate floor that he personally doesn't like, that's all.
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RakdosWarlord
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:28 am 
 

I don't get why the vice wouldn't get impeached with the president. Obviously if the president is doing bad things enough to warrant impeachment, shouldn't that reflect poorly on the vice enough to get him out of the office too?

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EzraBlumenfeld
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:27 am 
 

Kinda depends on the situation. If it's obvious that the vice is in on the same stuff, they'd get taken out too. I believe though I'm not 100% positive, that it happened to Spiro Agnew. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:23 pm 
 

Agnew was different. He received kickbacks from contracts he awarded to associates while governor of Maryland, and those payments continued while he was Vice President. He was indicted, pleaded no contest, and resigned. He actually knew nothing about the inner workings of the Watergate break in because Nixon did not like him and kept him out of all the discussions regarding that particular scandal.
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nestee8
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:39 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
Trump finally has his "big, huge" milestone in his so-called presidency. He now has given us the longest government shutdown in American history. While he's doing this, his approval and support among his base is finally slipping.

He's being sued now by multiple government workers for missed pay with a twist on the 13th Amendment, which makes slavery illegal.

Finally, the shutdown itself is just plain bad for every facet of America, and a losing proposition for Trump. A funtabulous "doomsday scenario" is outlined here.

Included in the Doomsday Scenario are:

If the worst were to happen, experts say the devastating impact would be widespread:

38 million low-income Americans lose food stamps (as a note, a large number of these people are supposedly Trump supporters)
6 million face an uncertain timetable for collecting tax refunds
2 million without rental assistance and facing possible eviction
800,000 paycheck-less federal employees plunged into dire financial straits
Shuttered parks and museums while overstressed airports cause tourism to tank
Federal court system slows to a crawl
Disaster relief money doesn't get to storm-ravaged areas
Lapsed FDA and EPA inspections lead to dangerous outbreaks
Private companies looking to go public are stuck in limbo
Stock market plummets


That Trump threatens to keep this going for "months or years" would effectively mean the United States has a non-functioning, practically 3rd world country. It's amazing that after two years, this fucking moron still finds ways to be an even bigger pile of shit.


A wall that isn't guaranteed to stop illegal immigration isn't worth any of this.

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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:44 pm 
 

nestee8 wrote:
Resident_Hazard wrote:
Trump finally has his "big, huge" milestone in his so-called presidency. He now has given us the longest government shutdown in American history. While he's doing this, his approval and support among his base is finally slipping.

He's being sued now by multiple government workers for missed pay with a twist on the 13th Amendment, which makes slavery illegal.

Finally, the shutdown itself is just plain bad for every facet of America, and a losing proposition for Trump. A funtabulous "doomsday scenario" is outlined here.

Included in the Doomsday Scenario are:

If the worst were to happen, experts say the devastating impact would be widespread:

38 million low-income Americans lose food stamps (as a note, a large number of these people are supposedly Trump supporters)
6 million face an uncertain timetable for collecting tax refunds
2 million without rental assistance and facing possible eviction
800,000 paycheck-less federal employees plunged into dire financial straits
Shuttered parks and museums while overstressed airports cause tourism to tank
Federal court system slows to a crawl
Disaster relief money doesn't get to storm-ravaged areas
Lapsed FDA and EPA inspections lead to dangerous outbreaks
Private companies looking to go public are stuck in limbo
Stock market plummets


That Trump threatens to keep this going for "months or years" would effectively mean the United States has a non-functioning, practically 3rd world country. It's amazing that after two years, this fucking moron still finds ways to be an even bigger pile of shit.


A wall that isn't guaranteed to stop illegal immigration isn't worth any of this.


Agreed 100%, nestee! All this disruption and for what - a costly public works project/personal vanity project that ignores the existence of boats.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:44 pm 
 

And airplanes, since the vast majority of illegal immigrants in the U.S. are visa overstays.

The wall is ugly as fuck, sends a horrid message to the rest of the world from a country whose image for so long re: immigrants coming to live there was the Statue of goddamn Liberty, and will do who knows what ecologically (nothing good). More than just a waste of money.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:11 am 
 

Seeing how illegal immigration is mostly due to overstaying visas, it would seem more logical to just introduce steps that would monitor visa users more closely. Conservatives would still get to sate their xenophobia boner and it goes right along with the surveillance police state idea that both parties love so much so it'd seem like a win-win. But no, Trump's gotta fixate on "the wall" because it's what his base wants or something.

I'm pretty sure Trump thinks that if he manages to build the wall, his daddy will rise from the grave to tell him that he really was proud of him all this time.
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dmerritt
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:53 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:

Agreed 100%, nestee! All this disruption and for what - a costly public works project/personal vanity project that ignores the existence of boats.


I don't want to get too involved in this conversation, but don't let's pretend any part of the opposition to the wall has to do with fiscal responsibility. Under 6 billion is less than the government spends in a day.

Moreover, anyone who supports the wall would just say, 'Fine. Let them build boats, then.' This idea that a certain policy being ineffective 100% of the time is an argument against the policy just makes no sense. One wouldn't say that about making it illegal to shit in the streets.

If Trump wants to build a wall and is getting opposition for half a day's worth of government spending, does that mean the Democrats would sign off on money for drones on the border, or some sort of Visa oversight program, or something to do with boats or planes, or expanding the Rio Grande, or whatever? If he had proposed any of those instead of a wall, the government would still be shut down right now.

Again, I'm not saying Trump is right and you guys are wrong. All I'm saying is let's get rid of all the 'filler' in this debate.

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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:08 pm 
 

Bettino, it certainly is laughable that the Democrats take up the mantle of fiscal responsibility on the wall issue. And I wasn’t trying to reduce it to an economic argument either. My point was, a solution that does nothing to address the myriad other ways people slip into the USA illegally, is a dumb thing for either side to be so rigidly unyielding about.
But I must disagree with your statement that
Quote:
does that mean the Democrats would sign off on money for drones on the border, or some sort of Visa oversight program, or something to do with boats or planes, or expanding the Rio Grande, or whatever? If he had proposed any of those instead of a wall, the government would still be shut down right now.
Only the extremists among the Democrats have ever shot down all discussion of every possible form of border security. At least some of those suggestions you made then dismissed, would likely be palatable.
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:47 pm 
 

I was a correctional officer in maximum security for 16 years; walls are designed to keep people in. They are not designed to keep people out. No matter what your feelings are about immigration any thinking person should be concerned that this guy is so adamant about walling us up!
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:08 pm 
 

On the one hand, I do dislike the tendency for liberals to pivot away from correcting a concrete (heh) issue, security along the southern border, to focus on a somewhat more nebulous one, cracking down on visa overstays. It borders on whataboutism, and is more than a little redolent of exactly what liberals accuse conservatives of when cons say "we don't need to fix the gun problem in this country, we need to fix the mental health problem!" While visa overstays aren't as laughably generalized as all mental health ever the reason they're so prevalent is because they're notoriously difficult to pin down.


But on the other hand, there's more than a few completely rational reasons to vehemently oppose the wall:

- $5.7 billion is not even close to the cost of the wall, it's just a down payment.
- even if that was the full cost (it's not even close), the cost of upkeep on a yearly basis is prohibitively expensive, and all of it is on the taxpayer's dime
- speaking of which, the abomination of a tax bill Trump forced through Congress a year ago put in massive cuts to tax revenue over the same period of time The Wall would be built (not to even mention the upkeep); to put a twist on one of Trump's most embarrassing statements to date, "Republicans are gonna raid Medicare to pay for The Wall."
- as has been pointed out many times, a wall isn't going to have any significant effect on illegal Mexican immigration; most cross into the US via ports of entry
- the southern US border is already one of the most secure and viciously militarized in the entire world; The Wall is 100% security theater, let no one convince you otherwise
- the rest of the world will see The Wall for what it really is: a symbol of American bullishness, pigheadedness and racism

Opposing The Wall is good praxis.
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:18 pm 
 

Neither side want to truly fix the border/immigration issue. There wouldn’t be any more rhetoric to throw around. They thrive on divide and conquer politics.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:20 am 
 

mjollnir wrote:
Neither side want to truly fix the border/immigration issue. There wouldn’t be any more rhetoric to throw around. They thrive on divide and conquer politics.

Only one side puts kids in cages though
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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:17 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
mjollnir wrote:
Neither side want to truly fix the border/immigration issue. There wouldn’t be any more rhetoric to throw around. They thrive on divide and conquer politics.

Only one side puts kids in cages though

Bull. Shit.

This whole “putting kids in cages” or “separating families at the border” has always been happening, even during the Obama administration.

mjollnir is dead on here. Republicans generally claim that illegal immigration is a “crisis,” while Democrats generally claim that there isn’t a problem at all. They’re both extreme opposites of a spectrum and they’re both wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle: Illegal immigration is a problem, but it is no where near a crisis.

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Luvers
Writes generic (and possibly meandering) posts

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:29 am 
 

DBettino wrote:
Again, I'm not saying Trump is right and you guys are wrong. All I'm saying is let's get rid of all the 'filler' in this debate.
Yet, that is all your post amounts to.
DBettino wrote:
I don't want to get too involved in this conversation, but don't let's pretend any part of the opposition to the wall has to do with fiscal responsibility.
Of course that is the reason for opposition. It is wrong to speak for others but all who support the walls construction have their words laced with hatred and bigotry. The fiscal responsibility is a definitive problem with it though.
DBettino wrote:
Under 6 billion is less than the government spends in a day.
I do not believe you understand how construction works. We are talking about what would be 4063.594+ km in length, at least 9.144 m in height and be no less than 10 in. in width.
There are also places along the walls potential path where any kind of geological understanding proves no type of wall is even possible. You should try to go down to the southern US, particuraly in the swamp regions, bring along a licesened inspector, and tell them you wish to pour a massive concrete foundation, for a (later) structure that stands over 9 meters high. I am positive that inspector will smile, say there is no worry about the different soils, shifting land scopes, possible breaches, and sign off no problem.

Oh wait, no they wouldn't, because they are not fucking retarded.
DBettino wrote:
Moreover, anyone who supports the wall would just say, 'Fine. Let them build boats, then.'
If a wall is built, maybe Mexico will just build.... stairs? Or maybe use a rope? Or maybe come in legally like they do now?
DBettino wrote:
This idea that a certain policy being ineffective 100% of the time is an argument against the policy just makes no sense.
What? A proposition being ineffective just half the time is a reason to be skeptical, so all of the time? What you just wrote is, literally, one of the most illogical statements I have ever read, so.... Conglaturations?
DBettino wrote:
One wouldn't say that about making it illegal to shit in the streets.
Not only is that a completely different issue (making you using it here really, REALLY, dumb) but that is already illegal.

If nothing else, remember this one part, it may serve you well. To a reasonable and rational mind, it is NATURAL to be skeptical, so one should never expect any new idea to be immediately embraced by a rational mind. When discussing an established fact, it requires more than a criticism of that established fact, it requires an hypothesis to replace the already established fact.

No one here is discussing an established fact or way of life though, we are currently discussing the non-rational and unreasonable nonsense conjured up by the few brain cells found in the oversized skull of the piece of shit currently sitting in the oval office and the collective intelligence of 3 by all of his overzealous followers.
DBettino wrote:
If Trump wants to build a wall and is getting opposition for half a day's worth of government spending, does that mean the Democrats would sign off on money for drones on the border, or some sort of Visa oversight program, or something to do with boats or planes, or expanding the Rio Grande, or whatever? If he had proposed any of those instead of a wall, the government would still be shut down right now...
And your mechanism for putting forth such a declaration? Your statistical analysis? Furthermore, it is much more reasonable to put forth those hypothesis' than the construction of a wall that is, literally, IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE ROUTE THE WALL WOULD TAKE.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:14 am 
 

If you have all the quotes there, how can you respond only to things that aren't in them at all?
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CoconutBackwards
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:57 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
mjollnir wrote:
Neither side want to truly fix the border/immigration issue. There wouldn’t be any more rhetoric to throw around. They thrive on divide and conquer politics.

Only one side puts kids in cages though

Bull. Shit.

This whole “putting kids in cages” or “separating families at the border” has always been happening, even during the Obama administration.

mjollnir is dead on here. Republicans generally claim that illegal immigration is a “crisis,” while Democrats generally claim that there isn’t a problem at all. They’re both extreme opposites of a spectrum and they’re both wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle: Illegal immigration is a problem, but it is no where near a crisis.


The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Acting like either of these parties, or I should say your favorite team is good while the other is bad is laughable.
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:21 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
mjollnir wrote:
Neither side want to truly fix the border/immigration issue. There wouldn’t be any more rhetoric to throw around. They thrive on divide and conquer politics.

Only one side puts kids in cages though

You are correct on that one. The repubs showed how low they can really go with that bullshit.
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:29 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Bull. Shit.

This whole “putting kids in cages” or “separating families at the border” has always been happening, even during the Obama administration.

mjollnir is dead on here. Republicans generally claim that illegal immigration is a “crisis,” while Democrats generally claim that there isn’t a problem at all. They’re both extreme opposites of a spectrum and they’re both wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle: Illegal immigration is a problem, but it is no where near a crisis.

That never happened under Obama. People with kids and families were treated differently under Obama. Illegal immigration is only a symptom of a larger problem. The war on drugs. Crony capitalism. Politics. The fact that the immigration policies are prohibitive to the tired and poor huddled masses yearning to be free that we are supposed to welcome. And since those folks seem to be brown we can add institutional racism to the mix.
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Diamhea wrote:
TrooperEd wrote:
Edit: fuck it this whole thing is bait anyway.


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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:45 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Bull. Shit.

This whole “putting kids in cages” or “separating families at the border” has always been happening, even during the Obama administration.

mjollnir is dead on here. Republicans generally claim that illegal immigration is a “crisis,” while Democrats generally claim that there isn’t a problem at all. They’re both extreme opposites of a spectrum and they’re both wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle: Illegal immigration is a problem, but it is no where near a crisis.

Funny you should say that because even mjollnir disagrees with you.

No one said Obama treated immigrants perfectly but the Trump/Steven Miller administration has gone way, way further than the previous administration has, this is undeniable and well-documented, fuck outta here with those false equivalences.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:09 pm 
 

mjollnir wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Bull. Shit.

This whole “putting kids in cages” or “separating families at the border” has always been happening, even during the Obama administration.

mjollnir is dead on here. Republicans generally claim that illegal immigration is a “crisis,” while Democrats generally claim that there isn’t a problem at all. They’re both extreme opposites of a spectrum and they’re both wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle: Illegal immigration is a problem, but it is no where near a crisis.

That never happened under Obama.

Unfortunately it did. When an adult illegal immigrant is prosecuted for a crime and they are with a child, it was always policy to separate them when the adult was taken to a correctional facility. The only difference with the Trump administration is that they hold a zero tolerance policy for illegal immigrants. If you come into the United States illegally, you are prosecuted immediately; this means a higher rate of arrests and family separation. You could argue that that increase is bad but that doesn't change the fact that it was always happening, just at a lower rate.
mjollnir wrote:
People with kids and families were treated differently under Obama.

What exactly do you mean by "differently"? They are some who would argue that Obama deported more immigrants than any other President (before Trump of course). Now, they're some slight details that may make that claim false, but it didn't change the fact that Obama was pretty strict when it came to enforcing immigration policy.
mjollnir wrote:
The fact that the immigration policies are prohibitive to the tired and poor huddled masses yearning to be free that we are supposed to welcome.

Why is America "supposed to welcome" all immigrants? Why are countries like Canada or the Scandanavian countries allowed to have strict immigration policy (I would argue far stricter than America) but Americans are called "racist" when they want the same thing? I get America is a "nation of immigrants," but godddamn we can't take them all in!
mjollnir wrote:
And since those folks seem to be brown we can add institutional racism to the mix.

Why are you assuming it's because of racism? The majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanic, the majority of Hispanics are "brown," so therefore the majority of individuals who are deported will be "brown" people. Now I'm not saying that racism doesn't play some role, but to say it's the reason? I don't know about that...



Morrigan wrote:
No one said Obama treated immigrants perfectly but the Trump/Steven Miller administration has gone way, way further than the previous administration has, this is undeniable and well-documented, fuck outta here with those false equivalences.

Let's go back to what you said earlier:
Morrigan wrote:
Only one side puts kids in cages though

You're claiming only one side (presumably Republicans) "puts kids in cages." All I'm pointing out is that both sides have done this, they have always been doing this. If you had said that one side does it more than the other then fine I guess I can see that, but that's not what you said. You effectively painted the Democrats as the "benevolent, caring" party while the Republicans are the "evil, malicious" party when it comes to illegal immigrants. Fuck outta here with that shit.
Morrigan wrote:
Funny you should say that because even mjollnir disagrees with you.

Yea, i totally misread what he said. You're right on that.

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