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severzhavnost
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Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
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Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:24 pm 
 

What confuses me about the Russian hooker question is this: on one hand, the Russians jiggered with the election supposedly to help Trump win. However, the Russians have all along kept a disgusting videotape which could destroy Trump in the court of public opinion? :scratch:
So to me that leaves two possibilities. 1) both these things will turn out to be nothingburgers. This looks increasingly unlikely. I suppose there's a 1b), where one or the other is disproven too. But that still leaves at least one thing that marks Trump as unfit for office - whether that be legally unfit (being a foreign agent) or morally unfit (being a pervert).
2) Helping Trump per se was not the Russians' real goal. They were really after getting the Republican Party back in power, for which Trump has served his purpose and is now disposable. Whether Mike Pence is an active part of the plot, or he's been intentionally kept in the dark so he'll be innocent and eligible to swap in after Trump's gone, remains unknown. Of course, if this is true and is discovered, the long-term beneficiairy will be the Democrats; which raises an option 2b) the Dems were behind it all...
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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Location: In the Arena
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:45 pm 
 

Why does that not make sense? For Russia, the dream scenario would be having the ability to successfully blackmail the US president. So they help Trump get elected, and can then manipulate him into lifting sanctions or pulling out of NATO or whatever by threatening to reveal the hooker pee-pee dossier (pissier?) they have on him. He has made moves toward doing both of those things already.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9806
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:36 pm 
 

This is way too funny not to share:

Youtube: show


Savage, brutal, rekt, ethered, or whatever it is that kids say these days. :D
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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OzzyApu
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:11 am
Posts: 10383
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:53 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
This is way too funny not to share:

Youtube: show


Savage, brutal, rekt, ethered, or whatever it is that kids say these days. :D

I don't know that man's policies but that was great. He was like a one of those old school typical latin american movie villains. :lol:

A lot of my work day was spent going in and out of the testimony. I didn't get to see a lot of it but at one point I was at the TV in my building's lobby when John McCain was asking... something.
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Kerrick
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:02 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:10 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
That is very clearly a biased source. And Christians aren't on the chopping block or discriminated against at all in this country. Two Senators plus the ACLU objecting to a nominated post by the president doesn't mean anyone is getting persecuted.

A lot of Christians in this country also love to crow on about religious freedom this and that, and yet they usually mean it only for them and nobody else - i.e. when it comes to other freedoms like gay marriage, abortion, etc, they want to lord their opinions over everyone else's and make things illegal because they do not agree with their faith. The only freedom that matters is that they get to oppress everyone else. I hope you are not one of those kinds of people.


I didn't suggest it wasn't an unbiased article; quite the opposite actually. And for sure, there's hypocrisy constantly flying from both sides. This is just (IMO) an example of it coming from the left. We all have the right to not vote for someone because we disagree with their religious ideals, but to claim that someone is unfit for public service because of their religious beliefs about what happens after we die and therefore for all practical purposes irrelevant to the conversation at hand... that's taking it to another level. And in this specific case, that is what Bernie is claiming: that one's permission to serve in government hinges on what they think happens to other people's souls when they die.

As for gay marriage and abortion... haha I don't know if we want to hijack this thread for that. I'll say this though, gay marriage is a bit more complex so I'll just skip that entirely and maybe chime in on a separate thread if it exists/is started. But abortion is pretty black and white for me - regardless of any religious ideals. Most everyone agrees that murder is wrong. A pregnant woman either has a lump of lifeless cells in her body or a human baby. Since those cells are human cells with human DNA and such, I'd say it's pretty clearly human. I don't know how anyone can draw the line between human and not once the egg if fertilized. If some sicko runs up and punches a pregnant woman, killing the sack-of-cells/baby in her womb, it's considered murder. The tricky part is that this kid lives inside another human and both are affected by whatever choice is made. So who gets precedent? I think human life > human convenience. So yes, I'm against abortion just the same as I'm against murdering someone who can walk and talk on their own. And that's how I see abortion as: murder.

I'd also like to challenge you to consider a slightly different perspective than Christians and imposing rules over others. Ideally, everyone votes for what they think is best for everyone. Do you think it's possible that Christians might think it best for all of humanity to not have certain freedoms, just as most nations have decided stealing, murder, and other more generally-accepted illegal activities aren't good for the whole of the respective nations? Maybe there's a huge ego issue there, thinking they've got it figured out and nobody else does, but isn't that how most everyone operates: doing the best with the understanding you have?

darkeningday wrote:
Dude, this is not about religious freedom; it's about religious supremacy. Saying that any and everyone who doesn't believe exactly the way you do is "condemned" is fucked. I think the problem stems from divergent definitions of the word "condemned," but the very fact Vought couldn't even understand how that could sound shitty means he's so entrenched in Christian dogma he really shouldn't have a position of power.

Also, did you even read the article? The issue is very clearly not "because he's Christian." Good grief. Yikes indeed.


(Yes, I read the article before I posted it.) I think this is absolutely about religious freedom, but I agree with you about how crucial the understanding of the word "condemned" is. Vought is specifically talking about God eternally condemning those who have rejected Him to hell - after they die here on Earth. That is a very basic and central part of the Christian belief but also shouldn't have any affect on how in office Vought treats "unbelievers". Regardless of how it sounds, it's what Christians believe and he's standing by that. And at least from the article, it doesn't sound like Sanders allowed him to explain himself.

darkeningday wrote:
Saying that any and everyone who doesn't believe exactly the way you do is "condemned" is fucked.


Do you not see how you are doing the same exact thing you're preaching against? Saying everyone is "fucked" if they believe something you don't is just as ludicrous as you claim Vought is being. There's this bizarre double-standard that's recently so rampant in which if anyone has strong convictions that aren't in line with this universalist/moral-relativism ideal, they're "bigots." It's ok for people to believe others are wrong - especially in spiritual/religious issues. Let people disagree. How is you imposing your high-horse all-paths-lead-to-Rome beliefs differ at all from Christians claiming Jesus is the only way or Hindus claiming we'll all be reincarnated or atheists claiming we'll all cease to exist? If you disagree about religious beliefs, let's talk about it. Or not, that's fine too. But there's no need to "condemn" people for having different beliefs than you do in the way you're doing it.

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:35 pm 
 

1) If someone's religious beliefs are used as an excuse to discriminate against others, then their beliefs are clearly a problem.

2) There's nothing complex about gay marriage. There's not a single logical reason as for why gay people shouldn't be able to marry.

3) If I hold a little Petri dish with a fertilized human egg in one hand, and a newborn baby in another, and tell you that I'm going to drop them to the floor within the next five seconds, which one would you rush to catch? Surely, to you, splattering the microscopic fertilized egg is just as horrendous as splattering the baby.
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droneriot wrote:
The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.


Last edited by Xlxlx on Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9806
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:07 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
1) If someone's religious beliefs are used as an excuse to discriminate against others, then their beliefs are clearly a problem.

2) There's nothing complex about gay marriage. There's not a single logical reason as for why gay people shouldn't be able to marry.

3) If I hold a little Petri dish with with a fertilized human egg in one hand, and a newborn baby in another, and tell you that I'm going to drop them to the floor within the next five seconds, which one would you rush to catch? Surely, to you, splattering the microscopic fertilized egg is just as horrendous as splattering the baby.

Nailed it.

Regarding abortion, I'll add two things:

1) If you sincerely believe abortion is murder, then you should make no exceptions for rape and incest (only for saving the mother's life, if that). But of course that'd be incredibly callous and only the staunchest anti-choice nutcases would go that far.

2) I hope all anti-choice people are in favour of organ donations. I mean by law your organs cannot be extracted from your dead body (let alone living) and donated without your explicit permission, but some people think women should be forced to go through a body-wrecking, life-changing pregnancy no matter what they want. Funny how dead people have more agencies than women in their eyes.

I know this is a US politics thread but holy shit am I glad to live in Canada, where the debate on abortion is so thoroughly closed that even our Conservative former PM has explicitly stated he didn't want to re-open it. Anti-choice people can fuck off forever.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:09 pm 
 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... vable-wage

And Republicans wonder why no one takes them seriously.
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severzhavnost
Veteran

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
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Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:11 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Why does that not make sense? For Russia, the dream scenario would be having the ability to successfully blackmail the US president. So they help Trump get elected, and can then manipulate him into lifting sanctions or pulling out of NATO or whatever by threatening to reveal the hooker pee-pee dossier (pissier?) they have on him. He has made moves toward doing both of those things already.


Well... blackmail works on people who are desperately clinging to their position. For Donald Trump, who is not a career politician, losing the White House would not be the end of the world. Once he feels that it's really, really impossible for him to govern his way - whether due to internal politics or by being beholden to Russian (or anyone else's) interests - he can bug out and retire comfortably. Any blackmail by the Russians just wouldn't be able to squeeze too much out of him before he'd pack up and leave imo.
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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1060
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:27 pm 
 

Quote:
If some sicko runs up and punches a pregnant woman, killing the sack-of-cells/baby in her womb, it's considered murder.

That's because it's done without the woman's consent, obviously. Her body, her choice (not the person killing her). And I don't think people are arguing the cells aren't "human," just that the woman should have a choice to carry it to term or not.

Quote:
2) There's nothing complex about gay marriage. There's not a single logical reason as for why gay people shouldn't be able to marry.

This. Marriage is a legal situation granting certain rights, etc. You can have a religious wedding ceremony or not, but there is no good reason for the gov't to care what genitals the people in a marriage have.
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hey
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:41 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:04 pm 
 

Kerrick wrote:
Since those cells are human cells with human DNA and such, I'd say it's pretty clearly human. I don't know how anyone can draw the line between human and not once the egg if fertilized.

After fertilization, the egg still needs to be implanted, which is certainly not legal to prevent.

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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:19 pm 
 

Don't really wanna contribute to the derailment but I just wanna throw in that I think the abortion debate gets misconstrued from both angles a bit. The right likes to frame it as "People trying to enact murder to get around natural consequences of living" and the left likes to frame it as "People trying to dictate what women can and can't do", and while I'm 100% pro choice, I do recognize that neither of those strawmen are exactly what the other side is going for. It's really more about when exactly does life begin, and one side says "at fertilization" and the other says "some time later". So while I don't agree with Kerrick at all, I do understand that he and a huge majority of Christians aren't against abortion out of sheer meanness.
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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:28 pm 
 

George Carlin proved over 20 years ago that fetuses are NOT human beings:

Youtube: show
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:31 pm 
 

I so wish Carlin was alive to see this shit. His commentary on the situation would be fucking priceless.
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droneriot wrote:
The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:36 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Don't really wanna contribute to the derailment but I just wanna throw in that I think the abortion debate gets misconstrued from both angles a bit. The right likes to frame it as "People trying to enact murder to get around natural consequences of living" and the left likes to frame it as "People trying to dictate what women can and can't do", and while I'm 100% pro choice, I do recognize that neither of those strawmen are exactly what the other side is going for. It's really more about when exactly does life begin, and one side says "at fertilization" and the other says "some time later". So while I don't agree with Kerrick at all, I do understand that he and a huge majority of Christians aren't against abortion out of sheer meanness.

Nah. Most pro-lifers are in favour of exceptions for rape and incest, which is incompatible with being staunchly for life, and Xlxlx's point about the petri dish makes it obvious that they know a fetus isn't the same as a baby. Moreover, Christian pro-lifers are always against contraception too. They just want to control women's sexuality.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:39 pm 
 

It all basically comes down to "we'll allow abortions only when it's convenient for us and allows people we like to save face", which is fucking vile and hypocritical. I bet you my liver that a conservative dad would be all for having his pregnant teenage daughter abort discreetly just so that "the family" won't look bad to the neighbours. I've seen this stuff with my own two eyes, man.
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droneriot wrote:
The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

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Subrick
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:52 pm 
 

Don't forget that an anti-abortion, "pro-life" hawker is more likely to support capital punishment at the same time, so all they really are is a hypocrite.
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Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:27 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
BastardHead wrote:
Don't really wanna contribute to the derailment but I just wanna throw in that I think the abortion debate gets misconstrued from both angles a bit. The right likes to frame it as "People trying to enact murder to get around natural consequences of living" and the left likes to frame it as "People trying to dictate what women can and can't do", and while I'm 100% pro choice, I do recognize that neither of those strawmen are exactly what the other side is going for. It's really more about when exactly does life begin, and one side says "at fertilization" and the other says "some time later". So while I don't agree with Kerrick at all, I do understand that he and a huge majority of Christians aren't against abortion out of sheer meanness.

Nah. Most pro-lifers are in favour of exceptions for rape and incest, which is incompatible with being staunchly for life, and Xlxlx's point about the petri dish makes it obvious that they know a fetus isn't the same as a baby. Moreover, Christian pro-lifers are always against contraception too. They just want to control women's sexuality.


I'd say the exceptions for rape and incest are more because they recognized that those instances aren't the woman's fault, whereas just having consensual sex and getting pregnant is seen as being careless and seeking an abortion for it is the "easy way out" to avoid the consequences of being irresponsible. They're against contraception because that's just antiquated religious doctrine and (in according with their argument against gay marriage) sex is supposed to be for procreation, not recreation.

I'll just drop it here since I don't actually agree with any of these viewpoints but that's how I've always seen it. I don't think pregnancy should be a punishment and I think that saying sex is only for procreation is like saying water is only for toilets, but I just don't personally think that most people against abortion are simply looking to "keep women in their place". Some are, sure. A lot of them are, probably, but I think it's easier to paint them as monsters when really a lot of them genuinely do see it as murder and nobody thinks willful murder should be okay.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:35 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
I'd say the exceptions for rape and incest are more because they recognized that those instances aren't the woman's fault, whereas just having consensual sex and getting pregnant is seen as being careless and seeking an abortion for it is the "easy way out" to avoid the consequences of being irresponsible

Yes. In other words:

Quote:
They just want to control women's sexuality.


:P
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:42 pm 
 

Oi Kerrick, how would you feel about an extremely conservative Muslim person who asserts that women should not be allowed in public unaccompanied by a man, that they should be made to cover all exposed skin so as not to be seen by men outside of their family, that they ought not be able to drive, work, vote, or generally function as people in the way that we've come to accept in the contemporary western world? What if said person held these personal beliefs, and based governmental policy decisions on them? I assume you'd be ok with that?
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:06 am 
 

Kerrick wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Saying that any and everyone who doesn't believe exactly the way you do is "condemned" is fucked.

Do you not see how you are doing the same exact thing you're preaching against? Saying everyone is "fucked" if they believe something you don't is just as ludicrous as you claim Vought is being.

I never said anything of the sort. This has only ever been about Russell Vought and the woman he sought to get fired. If you can't see how a high-up appointee to the US govt. with such incredibly narrow beliefs that he thought he was morally justified in supporting getting a professor fired simply for offering solidarity with Muslims is bad, I don't know if I can help you. Separation of church and state has been a cornerstone of American democracy since its inception, whether Christians want to acknowledge it or not. The fact he had no compunction saying that Muslims have "a deficient theology" and "stand condemned" only further solidifies how tone-deaf he really is. Someone who allows his personal religious beliefs to underscore his actions has no place in our government. Obviously, this is far from the case already, sadly, but that doesn't mean we should open the floodgates.

See what batman wrote above^

Quote:
There's this bizarre double-standard that's recently so rampant in which if anyone has strong convictions that aren't in line with this universalist/moral-relativism ideal, they're "bigots." It's ok for people to believe others are wrong - especially in spiritual/religious issues. Let people disagree. How is you imposing your high-horse all-paths-lead-to-Rome beliefs differ at all from Christians claiming Jesus is the only way or Hindus claiming we'll all be reincarnated or atheists claiming we'll all cease to exist? If you disagree about religious beliefs, let's talk about it. Or not, that's fine too. But there's no need to "condemn" people for having different beliefs than you do in the way you're doing it.

This isn't what myself or Bernie Sanders or anyone in this politics thread is talking about. No one is trying to trample Christian's rights; you can still gather and worship whatever and wherever you like. What we have a problem with is religious influence on policy. Because religion only dilutes real, quantifiable issues; it never refines them.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:05 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
I'd say the exceptions for rape and incest are more because they recognized that those instances aren't the woman's fault, whereas just having consensual sex and getting pregnant is seen as being careless and seeking an abortion for it is the "easy way out" to avoid the consequences of being irresponsible. They're against contraception because that's just antiquated religious doctrine and (in according with their argument against gay marriage) sex is supposed to be for procreation, not recreation.

I'll just drop it here since I don't actually agree with any of these viewpoints but that's how I've always seen it. I don't think pregnancy should be a punishment and I think that saying sex is only for procreation is like saying water is only for toilets, but I just don't personally think that most people against abortion are simply looking to "keep women in their place". Some are, sure. A lot of them are, probably, but I think it's easier to paint them as monsters when really a lot of them genuinely do see it as murder and nobody thinks willful murder should be okay.


Yeah, the American Taliban (Evangelical/Religious Right) is so much more "understanding" than that regular old Taliban. The regular Taliban wanted to control women 100%, and the American Taliban only wants to do it to like, 95%.

Break it down to science and logic, and there's no reason abortions should be illegal. The American Taliban even only added this as deliberate political maneuvering around the 70's and 80's in an effort to "politicize" the silent religious folks in this country. It's bullshit and frankly counter to everything else the Religious Right actually believes. The Bible certainly doesn't give a shit about abortions or "killing babies" as the Right likes to spin it.

Break it down to human rights and statistics, and there's no reason abortion should be illegal.

Youtube: show


Unfortunately, this video was made before the Religious Right regained a shitload of power over the last election plunging this country dangerously close to becoming a theocracy.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:52 am 
 

Kerrick wrote:
I didn't suggest it wasn't an unbiased article; quite the opposite actually. And for sure, there's hypocrisy constantly flying from both sides. This is just (IMO) an example of it coming from the left. We all have the right to not vote for someone because we disagree with their religious ideals, but to claim that someone is unfit for public service because of their religious beliefs about what happens after we die and therefore for all practical purposes irrelevant to the conversation at hand... that's taking it to another level. And in this specific case, that is what Bernie is claiming: that one's permission to serve in government hinges on what they think happens to other people's souls when they die.

As for gay marriage and abortion... haha I don't know if we want to hijack this thread for that. I'll say this though, gay marriage is a bit more complex so I'll just skip that entirely and maybe chime in on a separate thread if it exists/is started. But abortion is pretty black and white for me - regardless of any religious ideals. Most everyone agrees that murder is wrong. A pregnant woman either has a lump of lifeless cells in her body or a human baby. Since those cells are human cells with human DNA and such, I'd say it's pretty clearly human. I don't know how anyone can draw the line between human and not once the egg if fertilized. If some sicko runs up and punches a pregnant woman, killing the sack-of-cells/baby in her womb, it's considered murder. The tricky part is that this kid lives inside another human and both are affected by whatever choice is made. So who gets precedent? I think human life > human convenience. So yes, I'm against abortion just the same as I'm against murdering someone who can walk and talk on their own. And that's how I see abortion as: murder.

I'd also like to challenge you to consider a slightly different perspective than Christians and imposing rules over others. Ideally, everyone votes for what they think is best for everyone. Do you think it's possible that Christians might think it best for all of humanity to not have certain freedoms, just as most nations have decided stealing, murder, and other more generally-accepted illegal activities aren't good for the whole of the respective nations? Maybe there's a huge ego issue there, thinking they've got it figured out and nobody else does, but isn't that how most everyone operates: doing the best with the understanding you have?


Well, I disagree 100% on the gay marriage and abortion - let people do what they want. That's it for me. Everyone else has already covered the abortion thing while I have been gone.

And I'm sure they do think it's best for others, and not everyone voting this way is necessarily some awful judgmental person. But I think the act of voting that way is pretty awful in itself anyway and I do not think they should be forcing their ideals on everyone else. They can keep that in church and the secular, mainstream world shouldn't lean towards any religion, nor should it discriminate against any of them so long as nobody is being hurt.

Seems to me Bernie is just saying that this guy's statements indicate he wouldn't treat others fairly like Muslims, etc. That is it to me. I dunno either way but that's what he is saying.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ht/529614/

Here's a good piece about this whole thing - I can see why people are bothered by Sanders' statements and the article points out thusly:

Quote:
It’s one thing to take issue with bigotry. It’s another to try to exclude people from office based on their theological convictions. Sanders used the term “Islamophobia” to suggest that Vought fears Muslims for who they are. But in his writing, Vought was contesting something different: He disagrees with what Muslims believe, and does not think their faith is satisfactory for salvation. Right or wrong, this is a conviction held by millions of Americans—and many Muslims might say the same thing about Christianity.


But this is closer to what I've been thinking here:

Quote:
Trump “is trying to divide this country up,” Sanders said. From their perspective, this is what the exchange was really about: the sense that bigotry and discrimination have become nastier and more commonplace in recent months, which poses a direct threat to the democratic institutions they’re tasked with defending.


Personally I'm all for the most extreme vetting processes for the people Trump wants to put in power. It isn't that you can't be Christian - do whatever you want. But fears of someone in a U.S. government position being slanted in any one direction for or against a group of people is a bad thing. That's where the opposition here comes from, however aggressive Sanders came off.
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~Guest 226319
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:56 am 
 

Sanders is upsetting people with his aggressive rhetoric? Call the tone police already! I was hoping that, if nothing else, the Trump era would bring an end to empty civility. Let's just all say what we really think.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:04 am 
 

Trump fans only like aggressive no bullshit rhetoric when it is denigrating or insulting to minorities.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:50 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Trump fans only like aggressive no bullshit rhetoric when it is denigrating or insulting to minorities.

Yep. Rest of the time they whine about being called "deplorable" and say "your hateful, arrogant, elitist leftist tone is why Trump won". :lol:
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:40 pm 
 

I dunno, I do agree that the Left should hold itself to a higher standard. After all, it's fundamentally about community, whereas the Right is "every man for himself". The goal ought not to be verbally beating up the rural poor that Trump exploited, but rather to bring them around to our side.

However, I wouldn't say that any of Bernie Sanders's rhetoric even comes close to Trump's in terms of aggression.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:47 pm 
 

I think the goal should be to welcome the rural poor to our side and verbally beat up the lily-white gated-community upper middle class and rich racists who actually make up the most vocal and worst Trump supporters.

Bernie is a super blunt guy, but he isn't saying anything close about Christians to what Trump has said about Mexicans and Muslims.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:51 pm 
 

He didn't unjustifiably call anyone rapists and criminals, so yeah, it's not that they're not on the same level. They aren't even on the same fucking planet.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:42 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
I dunno, I do agree that the Left should hold itself to a higher standard. After all, it's fundamentally about community, whereas the Right is "every man for himself". The goal ought not to be verbally beating up the rural poor that Trump exploited, but rather to bring them around to our side.

However, I wouldn't say that any of Bernie Sanders's rhetoric even comes close to Trump's in terms of aggression.


Hmmm... MIT study finds no significant difference between liberals' and conservatives' willingness to donate to charity: http://articles.latimes.com/2014/mar/31 ... s-20140331 I'll use myself as an example. I'm on the right-wing in the charity vs government social assistance debate, and if you look at my tax returns, you'll see a zero on the charitable donation line. But that's just because I never claim the deduction. I think you'll find that's pretty common among righties, especially those who hold some Christian beliefs.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:15 pm 
 

Kerrick, your God is the greatest abortionist in your universe. I don't know what the official percentage of fertilized eggs dying before birth is, but the guy sure has tons of blood on his hands.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:20 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
I dunno, I do agree that the Left should hold itself to a higher standard. After all, it's fundamentally about community, whereas the Right is "every man for himself". The goal ought not to be verbally beating up the rural poor that Trump exploited, but rather to bring them around to our side.

However, I wouldn't say that any of Bernie Sanders's rhetoric even comes close to Trump's in terms of aggression.


Hmmm... MIT study finds no significant difference between liberals' and conservatives' willingness to donate to charity: http://articles.latimes.com/2014/mar/31 ... s-20140331 I'll use myself as an example. I'm on the right-wing in the charity vs government social assistance debate, and if you look at my tax returns, you'll see a zero on the charitable donation line. But that's just because I never claim the deduction. I think you'll find that's pretty common among righties, especially those who hold some Christian beliefs.

I was talking political/economic community, not personal donations to charity. I'm glad people donate to charities, but it's not the same as a social safety net or a union.
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alexo666
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:34 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
I dunno, I do agree that the Left should hold itself to a higher standard. After all, it's fundamentally about community, whereas the Right is "every man for himself". The goal ought not to be verbally beating up the rural poor that Trump exploited, but rather to bring them around to our side.

However, I wouldn't say that any of Bernie Sanders's rhetoric even comes close to Trump's in terms of aggression.


Honestly the "Left" should have done the opposite.
The reason Trump won and these conservative/alt right createns get to do willy fuck all, is because there hasn't been enough repercussions from their actions, and they know they can get away with it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:33 pm 
 

Surprised there hasn't been an update to the latest fucking wacky events.

First off, Trump is now totally under investigation for obstruction of justice.

Republican Steve Scalise, Majority Whip of the House of Representatives was among four people shot early today.

Which prompted the cancellation of a House hearing on gun control today. Republican, no doubt, stuck trying to figure out how to spin that guns are super awesome after one of their own gets shot.

Rand Paul, darling of the worst of Libertarians who don't realize he's a line-towing Republican, seems especially shocked by the whole ordeal.

And of course, the only truly evil Hobbit, Jeff Sessions scurried into and out of his testimony hearing blathering on in a manner befitting a person with no working brain or memory, contradicted himself, and wasted everyone's time.

Trump finally held his first Cabinet Meeting, which has been described across the board as creepy, a sign of American collapse, and downright Soviet and surreal.

And finally, on a fucking hilarious note, the 9th Circuit Court ruled that Trump's tweets are to be taken as an official dialog, furthered by Sean Spicer's similar statement from an earlier point.

Fuck.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:01 pm 
 

The shooter in Virginia is also a hardcore liberal, which has been prompting righties on Facebook and Twitter to go fucking apeshit pointing out such a thing when normally they're either dead silent or shouting down other people whenever it's a right winger committing a mass shooting. Obviously a mass shooting is awful no matter what political affiliations the shooter has, but social media conservatives are positively giddy that this one was done by a "leftist", while blissfully ignorant of their own raging hypocrisies on the matter when the issue is flipped the other way around.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:18 pm 
 

Was his firearm purchased legally?
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:34 pm 
 

That's not been determined yet, but they do know that the rifle used was not an illegal rifle.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politic ... 81599.html
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:45 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Was his firearm purchased legally?


^Unknown if the gun he used was purchased normally, but he had at least two guns legally to his name (a shotgun and a hunting rifle) which showed up in previous police complaints, plus a FOID card (Illinois resident, mandatory for all gun owners there along with a background check) and a concealed carry permit. The guns recovered at the scene were a "9mm pistol" (so probably a semi-auto) and an SKS, a semi-auto rifle popular in both the US and Canada. So yeah, he probably bought all of them legally after passing an Illinois background check. Illinois FOID cards require renewal, so he probably has passed several background checks.
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:50 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
Surprised there hasn't been an update to the latest fucking wacky events.

First off, Trump is now totally under investigation for obstruction of justice.


I thought Comey himself more or less confirmed this in his hearing, so I'm unsure why this is a big news deal. When he was asked whether or not the FBI investigation uncovered destruction of evidence by Trump & Co, he said he couldn't answer that without revealing classified information. I thought that was about as straightforward a way as possible for him to say Trump and/or associates were obstructing justice (namely by destroying documents, which unless I'm misunderstanding would be covered under the same laws about obstruction).
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On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely


Last edited by Earthcubed on Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:51 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
The shooter in Virginia is also a hardcore liberal, which has been prompting righties on Facebook and Twitter to go fucking apeshit pointing out such a thing when normally they're either dead silent or shouting down other people whenever it's a right winger committing a mass shooting. Obviously a mass shooting is awful no matter what political affiliations the shooter has, but social media conservatives are positively giddy that this one was done by a "leftist", while blissfully ignorant of their own raging hypocrisies on the matter when the issue is flipped the other way around.


I'm curious if this will, like so many other mass shooting and school shooting incidents, inspire copycats. Trump hatred is astronomical, there is fear and a real feeling that people are powerless. This is the kind of shit that breeds the idea of "I'll just grab a gun, do it myself, and get my 15 minutes in the spotlight. That one guy did, and now I can, too."
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