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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 11409
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:18 am 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Half of the people needa drop out, fast. It's giving no air time to candidates that actually have a chance.


Yes. Absolutely. For me a secondary concern is that I don't like Biden on a lot of issues, but the real concern is that I don't think he can beat Trump. He won't excite younger voters at all so they'll stay home and Trump will get a second term. To beat him, voter turnout has to be very high, which means the Democratic nominee absolutely must be someone who can inspire younger people to get out and vote and push those numbers up. They need to clear those stages of that dead weight and let candidates with realistic chances speak longer, have real debates with one another, and hopefully build support for someone who can beat Trump and start making big changes.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:22 am 
 

Do you guys think beating Trump is more important than anything else for 2020? Because I definitely do not. If we have an Obama 2.0 (like I'd almost put money Harris, Buttigieg or Booker would be), you honestly don't think something worse than Trump could arise? Tom Cotton or Steve King 2024?
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9205
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:13 am 
 

Harris already backed off on her support of abolishing private insurance in favor of Medicare for All, claiming she misheard the question. Which, yeah in fairness it was worded kinda awkwardly but this is also the second time she's done this exact thing on this exact issue, no?

Never trust a cop.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:37 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Never trust a cop.

Hahaha, that reminds me of this gem:

Spoiler: show
Image

On the subject of Buttigieg, I feel he already ruined his chances even before the debate with his disasterous handling of his own PD. No self-respecting person of color would ever vote for him, especially in this post-Brown/Sterling/Castile/andabillionothers era. Nor should they.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:35 am 
 

I was very surprised to see so many candidates support the idea of abolishing private insurance. What a weird thing to promise, that you're going to take something away from people. Their thinking must be that since most private insurance is terrible, people will be glad to see it go.

Also a couple of candidates made a big deal over allowing the government to negotiate prescription drug prices directly, which is currently forbidden. For many years, the CBO has written that this wouldn't make any difference. Basically, the reason is that it's not like nobody negotiates drug prices. The prescription drug providers do. So to see any reduction in cost, you'd have to assume that the government would be better negotiators than them. The CBO does not see this as realistic.

The CBO estimates that the only real way to reduce costs is by tinkering with the prescription drug rebate scheme under Medicare part D. But that's complicated and doesn't get you an applause line at a crowded debate, so nobody mentioned it.
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BastardHead
Worse than the PMRC

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9205
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:14 pm 
 

GTog wrote:
I was very surprised to see so many candidates support the idea of abolishing private insurance. What a weird thing to promise, that you're going to take something away from people. Their thinking must be that since most private insurance is terrible, people will be glad to see it go.


The idea is obviously that private insurance is a predatory racket and everybody instead gets the same universal healthcare that doesn't suck and doesn't cost a fuckload of money so at that point it's no longer needed. This is like seeing the invention of the calculator and then getting pissed that nobody will buy an abacus anymore.
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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 1325
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:12 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Do you guys think beating Trump is more important than anything else for 2020? Because I definitely do not. If we have an Obama 2.0 (like I'd almost put money Harris, Buttigieg or Booker would be), you honestly don't think something worse than Trump could arise? Tom Cotton or Steve King 2024?


I personally find Trump's win entirely circumstantial. A corporatist democrat was seen as the anointed savior by the establishment, which pissed off everyone and discouraged them to vote, and that had nothing to do with Obama. Republicans ideologically were worn out like a cheap 10 dollar whore which resulted in the nomination of someone who is ideologically not republican (although he did cut rich people's taxes and continue to be buddies with the fossil fuel industry, like all republicans before him). The novelty of trump, mixed with the tone deafness of the left, created the results we're now dealing with. Nevermind the fact that the left won the popular vote and lost the electoral college (again).

That being said, I'm still on board to elect the most progressive (which is still pretty fucking centrist by global standards) candidate, and that's what I'm looking for during the primaries.
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burnroasted
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:00 am
Posts: 287
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:58 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
korgull wrote:
Robert Reich wrote:
Wall Street says even a small transaction tax on financial transactions would drive trading overseas since financial trades can easily be done elsewhere.

Baloney. The U.K. has had a tax on stock trades for decades, yet remains one of the world’s financial powerhouses. Incidentally, that tax raises about 3 billion pounds yearly. That’s the equivalent of 30 billion in an economy the size of the United States, which is a big help for Britain’s budget. At least 28 other countries also have such a tax and the European Union is well on the way to implementing one.

Wall Street also claims that the tax would burden small investors such as as retirees, business owners and average savers.

Wrong again. The tax wouldn’t be a burden if it reduces the volume and frequency of trading, which is the whole point. In fact, the tax is highly progressive. The Tax Policy Center estimates that 75% of it would be paid by the richest 5th of taxpayers and 40% by the top 1%.

https://robertreich.org/post/148746866860

Fuck'in GOT 'EM.

No, he didn't. THe U.s market has outperformed the U.Ks market by 100% in the last 20 years. Why would we want a market like them?

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:14 pm 
 

There are many, many more reasons the US has outperformed the UK market, and they're mostly unrelated to the lack of an additional microscopic tax.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
Posts: 1050
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:48 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
The idea is obviously that private insurance is a predatory racket and everybody instead gets the same universal healthcare that doesn't suck and doesn't cost a fuckload of money so at that point it's no longer needed. This is like seeing the invention of the calculator and then getting pissed that nobody will buy an abacus anymore.


Noooo.... it was candidates promising that they'll invent a calculator any day now, and it'll be great, trust us. It'll be so great that we're going to go ahead and abolish abacuses too. Then of course you'll have to use the calculator... but don't worry because golly it'll just be so super. Vote for me.

It was stupid.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8799
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:26 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
The idea is obviously that private insurance is a predatory racket and everybody instead gets the same universal healthcare that doesn't suck and doesn't cost a fuckload of money so at that point it's no longer needed. This is like seeing the invention of the calculator and then getting pissed that nobody will buy an abacus anymore.

Well in Germany we have public and private health insurance, public health insurance gets you everything you need, private gets you some extras (mostly shorter waiting times for specialists), but the privately insured pay an insane amount of money for their insurance, and more than is needed for their treatment, so that money is mostly used by doctors and hospitals to increase their income. Works mostly fine.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9762
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:45 pm 
 

AOC reporting on those insane concentration camps* where not only children are in cages and sleep on concrete floors, but people are routinely abused Abu Ghraib/Guantanamo-style, where cruelty is the intention and not an accident, and even she and other congresspeople have received intimidation:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1145762201619357696
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1145764653835964419
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1145802564098777090
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1145801283191955464
https://twitter.com/RepJudyChu/status/1 ... 1080743939
https://twitter.com/RepDean/status/1145778546998202368
https://twitter.com/RepJoeKennedy/statu ... 1169644544
https://twitter.com/RepJoeKennedy/statu ... 1090191363

That's not even talking about the issues of overcrowding and sexual abuse and all the rest of course. This is fucking evil, y'all. And no, not spoiler-tagging the pics, because people ought to just plain see them.

* before anyone tone-polices this choice of words and shrieks that "this isn't the same as Auschwitz don't call them that", remember that not all concentration camps were extermination/death camps and also this so fuck off in advance
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:29 pm 
 

And to those who say "dis isn't a racial issue," I remind you of the following: we have 660,000 thousand illegal immigrants from Europe, most of whom are white and not in detention centers. Why's that?
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 8207
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:39 pm 
 

But remember: Some people still sincerely believe that there is no difference between the two parties, and that they’re totally the same.

I don’t even need to tell you that none of this vile shit would have happened under Hillary Clinton. It should be so obvious from the last 2.5 years, and especially from the last month or so as more info about the concentration camps comes out.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 11409
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:38 pm 
 

Jesus fuckin' christ.

CBP and ICE need to be completely gutted and reworked, and these people brought to justice. There is absolutely no way conditions like that are happening so systematically unless the people in charge are specifically selecting employees who show their racism and cruelty cards in a very obvious way. There have gotta be tons of sick fucks who'd love to sign up for shit like that.
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 7905
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:40 am 
 

This is rotten. Reading that made me gag.

Fuck everyone who still defends the Trump administration. Fuck them all. I hope they all burn in fucking hell forever.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8799
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:41 am 
 

Reading the news today at least you can say migrants trying to go to the United States aren't a target for air strikes yet. It's like the world is trying to one-up itself with how messed up it's getting.
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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 4693
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:13 am 
 

Bonus points for the people who think this treatment is perfectly justified because they're not only "illegal" but can also "turn around and go home at any time" if they don't want to be treated like that. Seriously, you have to go out of your way to be this sadistic and it comes far too naturally for far too many people...
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severzhavnost
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2495
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:31 pm 
 

Good chance the whole story is BS. Border Patrol agents on scene report AOC flipping out upon arrival, yelling and screaming at people, then refusing to even accompany her fellow Congresspeople on the tour of the facility, and intentionally misrepresenting some of the experiences of migrants housed there.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... -witnesses
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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3902
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:36 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Good chance the whole story is BS. Border Patrol agents on scene report AOC flipping out upon arrival, yelling and screaming at people, then refusing to even accompany her fellow Congresspeople on the tour of the facility, and intentionally misrepresenting some of the experiences of migrants housed there.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... -witnesses


You mean this?:
Spoiler: show
“So this is what happened with the migrant and drinking water from toilet: she wanted water, didn’t know how to use the faucet in the cell, and drank from the toilet. She never told AOC that we made her drink from the toilet. AOC, of course, changed it … This was when she [the migrant] was apprehended and brought into the facility,” according to the agent."


I'm supposed to believe she didn't ask for help after not being able to use the faucet and just drank out of the fucking toilet? You don't even have to believe that the officers actively made her drink toilet water to see that we're talking about gross negligence on the part of the officers here.


Last edited by henkkjelle on Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:36 pm 
 

Fyi, Washington Examiner and New York Post are basically Breitbart with slightly less racist comment sections. You'd want a more reputable source than those if you want to convince people.

Secondly, that AOC was allegedly "flipping out, yelling and screaming"--even if it was true, it drastically weakens your argument because it's entirely unrelated to whether or not her story was fabricated. Just makes you look sexist.

The only thing I find believable is that migrants may not have actually been explicitly told to drink toilet water, and instead did so of their own volition because they weren't shown how to operate the faucet. I worked in a refugee resettlement organization for a while, and you'd be shocked at the running-water illiteracy of a lot of these people, although it's absolutely on the prison guards to show them how to fucking use it.

Other than that, dismissing the whole story as "BS" with nary a shred of evidence is pretty, er, spicy.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 649
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:52 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Fyi, Washington Examiner and New York Post are basically Breitbart with slightly less racist comment sections. You'd want a more reputable source than those if you want to convince people.

"How to Win Every Arguement 101," Rule #1: When in doubt, simply state that the source of your opponent is biased and therefore invalid, thus winning the argument automatically (even though most sources are biased in some way, you still seem like a winner to the ignorant observers ).

darkeningday wrote:
Secondly, that AOC was allegedly "flipping out, yelling and screaming"--even if it was true, it drastically weakens your argument because it's entirely unrelated to whether or not her story was fabricated. Just makes you look sexist.

"How to Win Every Arguement 101," Rule #2: When in doubt, simply accuse your opponent of being sexist and/or racist and therefore putting into question the character and morality of said opponent, thus winning the argument automatically (it doesn't matter if said claim lacks any evidence or even makes any sense, all that matters is that your opponent looks like an asshole to the ignorant observers).

darkeningday wrote:
Other than that, dismissing the whole story as "BS" with nary a shred of evidence is pretty, er, spicy.

"How to Win Every Arguement 101," Rule #3: When in doubt, simply claim that your opponent has no evidence for their claim, thus winning the argument automatically (it doesn't matter if there's no evidence for your own claims, all that matters is that you beat your opponent to the punch and thus seem like a winner to the ignorant observers.).

severzhavnost wrote:
Good chance the whole story is BS. Border Patrol agents on scene report AOC flipping out upon arrival, yelling and screaming at people, then refusing to even accompany her fellow Congresspeople on the tour of the facility, and intentionally misrepresenting some of the experiences of migrants housed there.


https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... -witnesses

Be careful. This thread follows strictly to a single narrative (that narrative being that this country has been hijacked by an evil dictatorship empire, and the only one who can save us all is the holy AOC); and if you stray from this narrative even just a little bit, you risk being accused of being a supporter of said evil dictatorship empire.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8799
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:18 pm 
 

Rule #4: It's argument.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:49 pm 
 

How to Really Trigger the Libs 101: Rule #34
Intentionally misrepresent every single actual argument until there's nothing left but straw, then set it alight with a kitschy, dismissive aphorism.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 1325
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:00 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Be careful. This thread follows strictly to a single narrative (that narrative being that this country has been hijacked by an evil dictatorship empire, and the only one who can save us all is the holy AOC); and if you stray from this narrative even just a little bit, you risk being accused of being a supporter of said evil dictatorship empire.


I see an issue like this as very similar to an accusation of sexual harassment- why don't we all withhold judgment until more evidence of what's going on gets released to the public?

Btw, as an adamant lefty (very left), I don't think this country has been hijacked by an evil dictatorship, in fact, I think this president has proven just how stable our form of government is and how hard it would be to create a dictatorship in this country.

Also George Takai was in an interment camp. Those were also very fucked, no doubt about it, but to equate them to concentration camps undermines just how terrible concentration camps were. There wasn't piles of dead japanese people being sent into a furnace or being put on death marches. There was piles of dead jews being sent into a furnace. Big difference.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8799
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:12 pm 
 

Quote:
Internment is the imprisonment of people, commonly in large groups, without charges[1] or intent to file charges,[2] and thus no trial. The term is especially used for the confinement "of enemy citizens in wartime or of terrorism suspects".[3] Thus, while it can simply mean imprisonment, it tends to refer to preventive confinement, rather than confinement after having been convicted of some crime. Use of these terms is subject to debate and political sensitivities.[4]

Interned persons may be held in prisons or in facilities known as internment camps, also known as concentration camps. This involves internment generally, as distinct from the subset, extermination camps, popularly referred to as death camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 7905
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:14 pm 
 

I think this is as good a time as any to point out the fact that concentration camp =/= death camp. When you think of corpses going into ovens, you're thinking the latter.

Not that any of that necessarily makes the US border situation any less appaling.
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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 1325
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:15 pm 
 

Ok lol I'll stand corrected on that. Either way, the colloquial use of the words "concentration camps" implies something different.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4797
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:19 pm 
 

Didn't someone explain this earlier? No one's calling Trump's concentration camps "death camps." We're calling them concentration camps because that's literally, literally what they are. There've been a hell of a lot of concentration camps before and after WW2 you know.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 649
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:20 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
How to Really Trigger the Libs 101: Rule #34
Intentionally misrepresent every single actual argument until there's nothing left but straw, then set it alight with a kitschy, dismissive aphorism.

:lol:
Nice try DD, but everything I've stated is literally what you did to severzhavnost's post. I mean, I really don't know how you could even deny it since your statements are literally right there for everyone to see.

Unorthodox wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Be careful. This thread follows strictly to a single narrative (that narrative being that this country has been hijacked by an evil dictatorship empire, and the only one who can save us all is the holy AOC); and if you stray from this narrative even just a little bit, you risk being accused of being a supporter of said evil dictatorship empire.


I see an issue like this as very similar to an accusation of sexual harassment- why don't we all withhold judgment until more evidence of what's going on gets released to the public?

Well, yea, that's how the justice system works. Innocent till proven guilty. We can't just assume that the accuser is telling the truth, especially if it's a serious accusation; there must be evidence. And I would argue such a mentality should be applied to everyday life. AOC may, in fact, be telling truth on these atrocities, but she could also be grandstanding and over-exaggerating her claims in order to build a narrative, and to make herself seem like the "whistle-blower that revealed evil and saved us all." After all, she is a politician. In other words, there needs to be serious evidence to her serious claims; and tweeting nothing but empty accusations and claims is not enough. And the fact that many members on this forum are immediately jumping onto this narrative because of the simple fact that "AOC said so," shows that it may actually be worth making shit up for the supporters will immediately eat up anything she says (which I find eerily similar to Trump supporters).

Unorthodox wrote:
Btw, as an adamant lefty (very left), I don't think this country has been hijacked by an evil dictatorship, in fact, I think think this president has proven just how stable our form of government is and how hard it would be to create a dictatorship in this country.

I would agree, and if you're being truthful then you're one of the sensible ones. But members like darkeningday seem to believe that we're literally 1 step away from Armageddon.


Last edited by SuperVeji4 on Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:21 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Ok lol I'll stand corrected on that. Either way, the colloquial use of the words "concentration camps" implies something different.

Yes, though that stems from the history of Nazi Germany when at the end of WW2, concentration camps such as Dachau or Bergen-Belsen became de facto "death camps" simply by no longer giving any food or medical treatment to prisoners. They weren't designed to be death camps but very few people left them alive anyway.
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korgull
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:53 am
Posts: 886
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:33 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Also George Takai was in an interment camp.


Since we are already sorting out the definition of concentration vs. death camp, I think it makes sense to point out that the correct term for the above quote should be "internment camp." An "interment" camp would be a place where corpses are put into graves.

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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
Posts: 6443
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:37 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
How to Really Trigger the Libs 101: Rule #34
Intentionally misrepresent every single actual argument until there's nothing left but straw, then set it alight with a kitschy, dismissive aphorism.

:lol:
Nice try DD, but everything I've stated is literally what you did to severzhavnost's post. I mean, I really don't know how you could even deny it since your statements are literally right there for everyone to see.

Unorthodox wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Be careful. This thread follows strictly to a single narrative (that narrative being that this country has been hijacked by an evil dictatorship empire, and the only one who can save us all is the holy AOC); and if you stray from this narrative even just a little bit, you risk being accused of being a supporter of said evil dictatorship empire.


I see an issue like this as very similar to an accusation of sexual harassment- why don't we all withhold judgment until more evidence of what's going on gets released to the public?

Well, yea, that's how the justice system works. Innocent till proven guilty. We can't just assume that the accuser is telling the truth, especially if it's a serious accusation; there must be evidence. And I would argue such a mentality should be applied to everyday life. AOC may, in fact, be telling truth on these atrocities, but she could also be grandstanding and over-exaggerating her claims in order to build a narrative, and to make herself seem like the "whistle-blower that revealed evil and saved us all." After all, she is a politician. In other words, there needs to be serious evidence to her serious claims; and tweeting nothing but empty accusations and claims is not enough. And the fact that many members on this forum are immediately jumping onto this narrative because of the simple fact that "AOC said so," shows that it may actually be worth making shit up for the supporters will immediately eat up anything she says (which I find eerily similar to Trump supporters).

Unorthodox wrote:
Btw, as an adamant lefty (very left), I don't think this country has been hijacked by an evil dictatorship, in fact, I think think this president has proven just how stable our form of government is and how hard it would be to create a dictatorship in this country.

I would agree, and if you're being truthful then you're one of the sensible ones. But members like darkeningday seem to believe that we're literally 1 step away from Armageddon.

Worthless fascist apologist fucks like you should be smashed in the face with a brick for every person who's died in those "harmless summer camps." I believe the death toll is 13-14 now.
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SuperVeji4
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Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:48 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
Worthless fascist apologist fucks like you should be smashed in the face with a brick for every person who's died in those "harmless summer camps." I believe the death toll is 13-14 now.

......and I'm the fascist apologist?

Did I ever say that the conditions of the internment camps are acceptable? Do you actually have any legitimate counterarguments to my posts, or are worthless tough-keyboard-warrior-responses all you have?

Also:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Be careful. This thread follows strictly to a single narrative (that narrative being that this country has been hijacked by an evil dictatorship empire, and the only one who can save us all is the holy AOC); and if you stray from this narrative even just a little bit, you risk being accused of being a supporter of said evil dictatorship empire.

Thank you for proving my point.

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korgull
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:53 am
Posts: 886
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:56 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Fyi, Washington Examiner and New York Post are basically Breitbart with slightly less racist comment sections. You'd want a more reputable source than those if you want to convince people.

"How to Win Every Arguement 101," Rule #1: When in doubt, simply state that the source of your opponent is biased and therefore invalid, thus winning the argument automatically (even though most sources are biased in some way, you still seem like a winner to the ignorant observers ).


Many right-leaning sources such as The Washington Examiner are not just extremely (laughably) biased, but regularly disseminate completely unsubstantiated rubbish meant to arouse their mentally deficient, propaganda-fed target audience. And that is why they have no credibility and should, by default, be considered invalid.

https://www.vox.com/2019/1/18/18188476/ ... eet-border

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8799
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:02 pm 
 

I don't know if using Vox to prove another newspaper has no credibility will be beneficial to this (or any) discussion.
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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:09 pm 
 

korgull wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Fyi, Washington Examiner and New York Post are basically Breitbart with slightly less racist comment sections. You'd want a more reputable source than those if you want to convince people.

"How to Win Every Arguement 101," Rule #1: When in doubt, simply state that the source of your opponent is biased and therefore invalid, thus winning the argument automatically (even though most sources are biased in some way, you still seem like a winner to the ignorant observers ).


Many right-leaning sources such as The Washington Examiner are not just extremely (laughably) biased, but regularly disseminate completely unsubstantiated rubbish meant to arouse their mentally deficient, propaganda-fed target audience. And that is why they have no credibility and should, by default, be considered invalid.

https://www.vox.com/2019/1/18/18188476/ ... eet-border

Fair enough. But the problem still remains, AOC is claiming one thing and the other side claims she's lying. All we have is hearsay. What I want to happen now is some kind of investigation into these camps, and to truly get to the bottom of what's going on there. But until then, I'll reserve my judgment. And I don't care if people like Zelkiiro consider me a "fascist apologist" for doing so, that's just not how I roll.

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henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3902
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:18 pm 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
All we have is hearsay. What I want to happen now is some kind of investigation into these camps, and to truly get to the bottom of what's going on there. But until then, I'll reserve my judgment.


So you're just reserving judgment in the face of countless reports of the abysmal living conditions at those camps?

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 7905
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:20 pm 
 

I believe AOC on the basis that this administration has given me absolutely no reason to doubt those claims, time and time again. I'll believe those people are receiving humane treatment when I actually see it, not before.
henkkjelle wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
All we have is hearsay. What I want to happen now is some kind of investigation into these camps, and to truly get to the bottom of what's going on there. But until then, I'll reserve my judgment.


So you're just reserving judgment in the face of countless reports of the abysmal living conditions at those camps?

Also this. This isn't the first time we hear about this, not by a longshot, and it won't be the last either.
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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:22 pm 
 

I have no idea who SuperVeji4 is so I'm not making this a personal accusation, but it seems most of the time when people reserve judgement it's only when something doesn't fit their world view, and it usually ends up something like this:

"Migrant accused of rape" - people start googling where they can volunteer for the firing squad
"Donald Trump accused of rape" - it's innocent until proven guilty, guys, you shouldn't pre-judge
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