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Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:50 pm 
 

Mellifleur wrote:
Warren's recent history of weird stunts and dubious claims

But not Sanders' long history of playing fast and loose with the facts? He doesn't usually just outright lie like the president does, sure, but he absolutely has distorted and twisted the facts for his political purposes in the past. Like I said, I ain't taking a side here because a. there's just too much ambiguity around the whole situation to know anything for sure and b. it doesn't change my views of the candidates, but I find Warren's record a whole lot less prone to dishonesty than Sanders'.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5234
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:59 pm 
 

Wait, when has Sanders ever lied or at least twisted the truth about his personal history ala Warren?
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Mellifleur
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Posts: 469
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:05 pm 
 

Well there was that time he said that a dozen uncle scrooges with giant money pools own every corporation on the planet, but the truth is that it is 13 uncle scrooges, so that's 3 out of 4 Pinocchios on the scientific big fat liar scale, only one Pinocchio less than climate change is a Chinese hoax! :lol:
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5234
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:36 pm 
 

He's said some contentious things in the past, sure, such as white people not knowing what it's like to be poor. But about his personal history? Well, it's on Ezadara to illuminate it.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5670
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:54 pm 
 

Yeah, not really sure what these "distorted facts" are, or how he's remotely dishonest. Besides that point, I'd be much more willing to trust someone on their track record than on alleged comments by unnamed "sources" (or, in other words, staffers trying to cut the opposition down as they're so apt to do) or by unfounded, ambiguous accusations that reek of any last ditch effort to throw a good person under the bus for self gain.

Sanders has a solid track record. The frank truth of it is that some self-avowed Democrats are afraid of him because his ideas are not centrist enough for them and/or that he doesn't fit some purity test, the media will do everything in their power to take him down because he threatens their corrupt business practices, and the party itself doesn't want to come to terms that the same old traditional way of doing things just is not attractive anymore. It's nice to think under Trump how nice it would be for things to go back to normal, but people don't just want normal, they want something better than that. The Democratic Party really needs to wake up to that fact, as I think so do a number of its (often older) lifelong supporters.
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RugglesTx
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:22 pm
Posts: 64
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:23 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
insanewayne253 wrote:
Let's not start writing a eulogy for 2020. The first thing that needs to happen before progressives have a good chance at winning the middle part of the country (they'll kill it in the coastal states) is to defuse this idea that Socialism is bad. Suburban voters are still a bit too moderate and have turned away from Trump in 2018. I think it's going to take more election cycles before Socialism stops being such a scary word for people. I talked to this (foolish) person earlier this week; he makes 150k a year, he's dead scared of a Sanders or Warren nomination and thinks "they're coming after me and my earnings." At the moment I personally don't think the grassroots are enough to push someone over the finish line. Non-voters are simply that, non or infrequent voters. There's that old saying "Democrats want to fall in love, Republicans fall in line."

Maybe it would help if people stopped referring to social democracy as socialism. It's a lot less scary if you actually call things by their name instead of copying and pasting far-right smear terms for it. All the stuff that Bernie and the others propose is basic stuff that the most centrist of center left people in Europe support and 80% of it is something even most conservatives in Europe support, there's no radical revolutionary post-capitalist stuff in any of it, it's all very basic stuff, very basic democratic stuff that where I'm from is just common sense. It's nowhere near Cuba or Venezuela or the likes, and it's actually tame even compared to the (not socialist) Nordic countries, it's more like the basic stuff in Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, etc.

You're not exactly Fidel Castro if you stand up and form a union because you get paid shit for hard work while your bosses take baths in coins like Uncle Scrooge, you're just doing what's right and the least you can do.


My issue with that is that ideal is that we are not in Europe, we are in the United States which is a different critter altogether. Socialism is a poor choice to many people in this country including myself. If you assume we are do not support it because we just do not understand it you would be incorrect. We understand it well enough, we just do not want it for a number of reasons.

The greatest example of European style socialism the E.U. is a also a great of example of why many do not want it here. Jan 31st will be a day of celebration for so many (me me me!) as that bloated monstrosity takes a huge hit :)

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5670
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:30 pm 
 

...

The EU is a capitalist organization. Socialists and social democrats aren't the biggest fans of it; its traditional supporters have been conservatives and economic liberals.
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RugglesTx
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:22 pm
Posts: 64
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:46 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
...

The EU is a capitalist organization. Socialists and social democrats aren't the biggest fans of it; its traditional supporters have been conservatives and economic liberals.


I look at who supports the E.U. and simply can not agree with you on that.

Regardless of that the repression of larger government oversight and control is being rejected in a number of key places. America in 2016 and by the English in 2016, and even louder in 2020 when 2016 was not "clear" enough for the remain proponents to understand it the first time....it's not a ideology gaining ground, it's losing it.....and for good reason as it continues to try and over step the bounds of government in the opinion of many.

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Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:00 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Wait, when has Sanders ever lied or at least twisted the truth about his personal history ala Warren?

I didn't mean about his personal history-- far's I know he doesn't even talk about it very much. But he's definitely done it when referring to his campaign, or to other candidates, or to make policy points. Shoot, he did it just a few days ago when he quoted Biden out of context to imply Biden had praised Paul Ryan for trying to cut Social Security in the middle of a speech calling for Social Security to be protected. Which he didn't even need to do, he could have just referred to Biden's past comments about putting a moratorium on Social Security increases, but his campaign went out of its way to be disingenuous in its criticisms of another candidate.

If you're going to take Warren to task for what Mellifleur called 'dubious claims' about her personal history (and as far as that goes, all I know is the whole Native American kerfuffle) then I don't see how you can ignore the Sanders' campaign's habit of being less than strict with the facts as well.

Derigin wrote:
Sanders has a solid track record. The frank truth of it is that some self-avowed Democrats are afraid of him because his ideas are not centrist enough for them and/or that he doesn't fit some purity test

Or... some of us just don't think he'd be a good president. Plenty of Democrats who aren't even that ideologically divorced from Sanders feel he wouldn't be an effective president for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with him being 'too radical' or anything like that. Nothing to do with his ideas and more to do with how effective he would be in actually turning those ideas into policy.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5234
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:07 am 
 

Ezadara wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Wait, when has Sanders ever lied or at least twisted the truth about his personal history ala Warren?

I didn't mean about his personal history-- far's I know he doesn't even talk about it very much. But he's definitely done it when referring to his campaign, or to other candidates, or to make policy points. Shoot, he did it just a few days ago when he quoted Biden out of context to imply Biden had praised Paul Ryan for trying to cut Social Security in the middle of a speech calling for Social Security to be protected. Which he didn't even need to do, he could have just referred to Biden's past comments about putting a moratorium on Social Security increases, but his campaign went out of its way to be disingenuous in its criticisms of another candidate.

I'm talking about claims Sanders has made that are analogous to Warren's false or misleading claims, such as calling her dad a janitor, saying her kids went to public school and of course the Native American (and don't forget Pow Wow Chow and its possible plagiarism ) nonsense.

Regarding the claim of Sanders being disingenuous about Biden, I'd encourage you to consult the google before making a highly misleading claim yourself.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:53 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
I'm talking about claims Sanders has made that are analogous to Warren's false or misleading claims, such as calling her dad a janitor, saying her kids went to public school and of course the Native American (and don't forget Pow Wow Chow and its possible plagiarism ) nonsense.

Regarding the claim of Sanders being disingenuous about Biden, I'd encourage you to consult the google before making a highly misleading claim yourself.

I didn't make a misleading claim, though. Everything I said was accurate. The fact that Biden falsely accused the Sanders campaign of doctoring the video doesn't change the fact that Sanders in the first place falsely accused Biden of praising Paul Ryan for trying to cut social programs and took his words out of context to give that impression. It's absolutely disingenuous and dishonest politics.

As for the stuff about Warren, hadn't heard anything about that, so I took your suggestion and consulted the ol' Google. The whole thing about her kids going to public school... I mean, I guess both her kids had gone to public schools at some point and then her son went to private schools afterward, so yeah, her claim was a little misleading, in that it was phrased as a denial to somebody who'd asked if her kids went to private schools. But I wouldn't put it in the same stratosphere as straight up lying about what one of your opponents said.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5234
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:37 am 
 

Sanders never misquoted him though. David Sirota made a claim in a newsletter right after Sanders attacked Biden for being an austerity warrior that Biden had lauded Paul Ryan's cuts in 2018; Biden may have been mocking Paul Ryan at one point in that speech, but what he immediately followed-up his "joke" with was as follows:

biden wrote:
Now, I don’t know a whole lot of people in the top one-tenth of 1 percent or the top 1 percent who are relying on Social Security when they retire. I don’t know a lot of them,” Biden said, alluding to the need to means-test Social Security. “So we need a pro-growth, progressive tax code that treats workers as job creators, as well, not just investors; that gets rid of unproductive loopholes like stepped-up basis; and it raises enough revenue to make sure that the Social Security and Medicare can stay, it still needs adjustments, but can stay; and pay for the things we all acknowledge will grow the country.”

To which Ryan Grim of the Intercept adds: "When the program is popular, “adjustment” is a Washington euphemism for cuts. But you can count on Trump to use the more common term."

But the main issue is that this wasn't from Sanders and it wasn't an unnamed source leaking it to the media, it was a newsletter that came from his campaign with a name attached that wasn't Bernie.

For the record, I have never accused Warren of a bald faced lie in her exchange on stage with Sanders, and the bernie bro snake emoji clicktivists on twitter need to calm their man boobs. As I have always stated, I think this stemmed from a misunderstanding, but I do think Warren and her campaign handled this all atrociously.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Mellifleur
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Posts: 469
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:07 am 
 

Since Ezadara keeps misrepresenting my post, I'd like to point out that my post about times Warren has mislead people included things she's done and said relating to her policies and politics, not just things related to her personal life. Personally, it is more her lack of consistency on what kinds of policies she would pursue as president that concerns me more than whether or not she uses a few dirty tricks to win the race.

As for drawing equivalents between this lie and that lie... We don't really need 100% factual accuracy in absolutely every statement a politician makes, what we need is for them to get the policies in place we need. Republicans understand this very well, which is why every totally sensisble argument you can make in the entire world that Trump is a huge liar and is unqualified to be President is just hogwash to them because he delivers what they want (what they really want like racist immigration systems and biased judges, not what they say they want like freedom and economic opportunity or whatever). If Sanders quotes stats that aren't quite right in a speech about income inequality where the point he is making is totally right, that's not a big deal to me. If he got on stage and said Biden is a shapeshifting reptilian, that'd be hilarious, but I'd still support him as long as he sticks to his guns about getting some medicare for all around here.

With Warren on the other hand, the kinds of untruths and equivocations she's put out there really call into question her determination to deliver the kinds of policies we really need. She is very doggedly insistent in interviews that she is a capitalist first and foremost, and that's something she says that I believe! Medicare for all is not a capitalistic policy solution. The stuff about her claiming to be native american and trying to prove it with a DNA test says to me she really doesn't understand what it means to be native american and doesn't understand what kind of policies would actually be beneficial for native americans. Consumer advocacy is like supply side economics, though, it's approaching the problem backwards. Warren sees a fundamentally good system prioritizing profits that needs some tweaking and a little more regulation so companies will provide better products for the consumer-citizen. The other way of approaching it is seeing a system that must change in order to prioritize human needs first. It's a difference that may seem small but results in big differences in policy prescription. It's the difference between hopelessly browsing a healthcare marketplace with a bunch of healthcare plans you can't afford, and just going to the doctor worry free.

Warren obviously wants to win this nomination and is willing to do some sleazy things to get it, and honestly that shows a bit more verve on her part than I thought she even had! But as we have seen this strategy has already failed since more people believed she and CNN were lying so we're probably going to see some kind of rapprochement. I really hope she doesn't start veering right as revenge for some berniebros online talking shit over this though...
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5234
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:01 am 
 

Mellifleur wrote:
Warren obviously wants to win this nomination and is willing to do some sleazy things to get it, and honestly that shows a bit more verve on her part than I thought she even had!

While the leak itself appears to have been spurred as petty revenge for Sanders staffers saying objectively true statements about Warren's constituents, reliable sources informed me this was the main reason she doubled down on it. She wants to prove that she's a fighter, it's just sad she did it against the only candidate in the race that's superior to her.

There's a few Canadians around here who don't seem to grasp the fact that Bernie's the only candidate who has even a remote chance to bring about a healthcare system more in line with Canada's. Having a female president is simply not as important to me as keeping my mother-in-law from killing herself due mounting medical debt. If that makes me "fake woke" then so be it I guess.
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10268
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:06 am 
 

RugglesTx wrote:
I look at who supports the E.U. and simply can not agree with you on that.

It's not an opinion to agree or disagree with. A European free trade zone is a hardcore capitalist concept pushed through by hardcore capitalist leaders, that's an objective fact. Besides, who do you look at? The undying love the EU got from Iannis Varoufakis for the past decade? The near-monthly far left demonstrations against the EU? I mean when dishonest conspiracy theorist Trumpists rave against violent far left protests, maybe they should also check what those protests are protesting again, but then the dishonesty kicks in again and everything is conveniently bent to fit a narrative that has nothing to do with reality whatsoever.
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PvtNinjer
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:45 am
Posts: 4000
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:31 am 
 

Ezadara wrote:
Folks have been a whole lot more than skeptical of Warren. Pretty much the instant this stuff came up people (I say people, I mean Sanders fans) started assailing her with accusations of lying, calling her a snake, comparing her to Hillary Clinton ('cause what the heck, let's dredge up 2016 again while we're at it), all alongside the usual 'corporate shill' and 'mainstream media' rhetoric. You have people in this very thread point blank saying there is absolutely no chance of any veracity to what Warren said. Hardly anybody brought up even the possibility that, hey, maybe it was a misunderstanding.


Fair enough, although any candidate has it's share of online lunatics. That being said, this is all just a total sideshow, and personally I think the people going off about people shitposting on twitter wrt the snake and all of that are being super dramatic. I mean, I don't blame people for thinking she's lying, she has given every indication that she would capitulate to corporate america and the mainstream media has absolutely ratfucked Sanders this entire primary. I don't think any of this calls into question anyone's progressive bona fides (who cares anyway) or makes someone a misogynist or whatever.

I think people who's values most align with Bernie's camp are sick of the cynical and tiring employment of accusations of sexism, racism, anti-semetism, etc for the purpose of the defense of the neoliberal status quo. These types of smears aren't working any more.

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Mellifleur
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:38 am 
 

I think the real test of that is going to be the accusations of anti-semitism which are going to come sooner or later. Bernie has publicly stated that he thinks palestinians have human rights, so I don't think his being jewish is going to protect him from being called anti-semetic (or at the least he'll be accused of being permissive of anti-semitism). It completely worked against Corbyn and it's the same PR firms that run these hits in the UK as in the US.
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Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:42 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Sanders never misquoted him though. David Sirota made a claim in a newsletter right after Sanders attacked Biden for being an austerity warrior that Biden had lauded Paul Ryan's cuts in 2018; Biden may have been mocking Paul Ryan at one point in that speech, but what he immediately followed-up his "joke" with was as follows:

To which Ryan Grim of the Intercept adds: "When the program is popular, “adjustment” is a Washington euphemism for cuts. But you can count on Trump to use the more common term."

But the main issue is that this wasn't from Sanders and it wasn't an unnamed source leaking it to the media, it was a newsletter that came from his campaign with a name attached that wasn't Bernie.

The newsletter is from the Sanders campaign. If something comes out of a candidate's campaign, then I assume the candidate stands by it unless they immediately come out and disavow it. Sanders hasn't done that-- instead, his campaign's just doubled down on its attacks against Biden. And come on, he was obviously joking, there's no debating that. Read his words, listen to the tone of his voice, there's no way to construe what he was saying as genuine praise for Paul Ryan.

As for the 'adjustments' bit, thing is, the newsletter didn't say 'Biden says Social Security might need adjustments', it said 'Biden lauded Paul Ryan for proposing cuts to Social Security'. Which was a lie, plain and simple. I mean, it was a savvy move, since now the conversation is framed around 'Biden wants to cut Social Security' and the Sanders campaign can start hammering him on his past references to freezing Social Security increases. But it was also, undoubtedly, dishonest politics.

darkeningday wrote:
For the record, I have never accused Warren of a bald faced lie in her exchange on stage with Sanders, and the bernie bro snake emoji clicktivists on twitter need to calm their man boobs. As I have always stated, I think this stemmed from a misunderstanding, but I do think Warren and her campaign handled this all atrociously.

I agree with you there at least. This hasn't exactly been a sterling example of campaign excellence from any side.

Mellifleur wrote:
Since Ezadara keeps misrepresenting my post I'd like to point out that my post about times Warren has mislead people included things she's done and said relating to her policies and politics, not just things related to her personal life.

Your post just referred to 'weird stunts and dubious claims', didn't say nothin' about policies and politics, and I was mostly replying to darkeningday who did explicitly refer to misleading quotes about personal history. Sounds like more of a misunderstanding than a deliberate effort to misrepresent your words. We may disagree here but I am trying to have this discussion in good faith.

Quote:
As for drawing equivalents between this lie and that lie... We don't really need 100% factual accuracy in absolutely every statement a politician makes, what we need is for them to get the policies in place we need. Republicans understand this very well, which is why every totally sensisble argument you can make in the entire world that Trump is a huge liar and is unqualified to be President is just hogwash to them because he delivers what they want (what they really want like racist immigration systems and biased judges, not what they say they want like freedom and economic opportunity or whatever).

No, we don't need 100% factual accuracy-- that's pretty much impossible, even the most seasoned politician misspeaks and misremembers things. But that ain't the same as lying about what another candidate said in a bid to win votes. And if a candidate is a huge liar and unqualified to be president, well, Republicans can vote for them if they want, but I won't, no matter how closely their views approximate mine (not least of all because if you're unqualified to be president then you're probably not going to be able to get the policies I want accomplished anyway).

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Mellifleur
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Posts: 469
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:47 pm 
 

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I don't think you are trying to misrepresent anybody!

I do sometimes make seemingly favorable comparisons to republicans. It is not meant to imply I approve of their platform or the goals they are trying to accomplish, just that I believe they understand how the electoral system and how power works in this country very very well and are good at gaming it. They are a minority party who are widely hated and are internally controlled by an even smaller and more hated contingent of psycho idiots, yet they still command most of the political power in this country. They obviously do a lot of things right. Compared to their diehard determination to take and keep power, it seems like democrats often intentionally set themselves up for failure or that they *like* being the opposition party because it takes the pressure off or something. None of the big, bold changes that need to occur are going to occur if the democratic leadership continue to behave like they like losing.

I have theories why this is, mostly revolving around the fact that most of the elite democrats are in the same economic and social class that the republican party works to serve, so republican policies don't actually negatively effect them that much. If there are no consequences to losing, why get so worked up about it? On the other hand, even seemingly intelligent republicans to a man share the same apocalyptic view of the culture war, believing that every day is their desperate last stand for their very existence before they are assimilated into the soy boy collective (or demonic hellhordes descend from UFOs, republicans are weird). They are nothing if not motivated. If you see the situation as being so dire, the fact that Trump is living wad of cholesterol doesn't matter as long as he's staving off armageddon by putting mexican babies in torture chambers.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:06 pm 
 

Yeah, the whole situation with Warren has been really strange. I generally liked her previously but I feel like, between this "leak," and the other gaffes she's had, I feel like she's not who she portrays herself as. The timing of the leak to CNN and the way CNN covered it felt very slimy to me. It certainly seems like the establishment dems are doing their best to stop Bernie from getting the nomination.

And Biden getting the nomination is a guarantee of another 4 years of Trump.

RugglesTx wrote:
Sanders is Socialist enough for me....

Trump is a much better choice than anybody currently on the left IMO, so unless a dark horse comes into the fray somehow Trump will win.

The one with the best chance vs Trump is Biden by a mile....the others will lose epically vs Trump I think.


You're pretty incorrect here, on all of this. First, by all metrics we have to project the election, it seems Sanders is the best equipped to beat Trump - which makes sense, since both have strong working class bases. In a majority of the swing states that gave Trump the '16 election, Bernie is polling ahead of Trump. On top of that, all of the major national polls show Sanders ahead of Trump by the widest margin of any other candidate. Biden and Pete actually poll the worst against Trump - probably due to lack of general excitement in their campaigns.

Also, "socialist enough for me" isn't a good argument. First, "Democratic Socialism" is not socialism. Second, most of the fear from conservatives about socialism is based on the propaganda they spread about it rather than the facts. Trump peddles lies, fear and propaganda and his supporters just believe whatever he tells them.

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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3887
Location: Ubique
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:46 pm 
 

Mellifleur wrote:
She is very doggedly insistent in interviews that she is a capitalist first and foremost, and that's something she says that I believe! Medicare for all is not a capitalistic policy solution.


Medicare for all, when properly paid for (i.e., with higher individual tax rates rather than business rates), is basically the single most pro-business policy being campaigned on right now. All the money corporations have to spend on company insurance to remain competitive gets to stay in their coffers to do what they please with it. There is no rush among capitalists in other countries to get rid of single-payer systems because it's simply good for business when the government pays for healthcare. I mean, I guess if you want you can technically differentiate between "capitalistic" and "pro-business" but that's not exactly the point you're making.


The reality is that universal healthcare was started by a right-wing Prussian reactionary trying to prevent the spread of actual socialism in his country. That is its origin. Doesn't matter how many adjectives you put in front of the word, it is not socialism.
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Last edited by Earthcubed on Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mellifleur
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:56 pm 
 

Yes, medicare for all would have the periphery benefit of allowing companies to not have to bother with the bureaucratic work associated with the insurance industry. That is the argument Biden makes for keeping job-based health insurance: Why let them off the hook? The reason to let them off the hook is that single payer systems provide better healthcare for the masses. I consider that the more important concern. Not to mention, job-based insurance gives peoples' employers more leverage over them, since they can coerce people into dealing with bad jobs or abusive conditions because they depend on the healthcare. Thus, separating one's access to healthcare from one's employment increases peoples' freedom. As a side project, we could always raise corporate tax rates too, it's not like having single payer automatically makes it impossible to do different things with one tax rate or another. Not really sure what point you are trying to make, here.

In response to edit: I care more about the fact that it would be beneficial to folks than whether it was invented by this guy or that guy, whether it "belongs" to this or that ideology. Sorry Earthcubed, you're barking up the wrong tree on this one.
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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:14 pm 
 

I'm just tired of Dems calling explicitly Nordic capitalist policies "democratic socialist" or "anticapitalist" or whatever. It's dumb both in a literal "this is not what socialism is" dictionary sense and in terms of campaign strategy. They could take all the fire out of the inevitable "far left Dems are scary socialists" narrative, but no, they're leaning into it. It's dumb.
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Mellifleur
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:17 pm 
 

Nothing can take the fire out of "far left dems are scary socialists" republican talking points, because those talking points aren't based on facts or logic, it's just bile. They *should* lean into the socialist idea because it's ultimately the superior ideal. Medicare for all certainly doesn't constitute a socialist revolution, but it's a good idea that, when implemented, lends credence to the notion of success and prosperity through collective action. Does that help or hinder the chances of some hypothetical future revolution? Who could say? In the meantime, it's a good policy for those of us living under the health insurance marketplace job-bound insurance healthcare regime.
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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:42 pm 
 

If you think socialism is a better ideal than contemporary Denmark, Sweden, or Finland, then there's no point discussing this further, so I'll see myself out. Hopefully there aren't enough of you to give us 4 more years of Trump followed by 18 years of Ivanka and Trump Jr.
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iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

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Mellifleur
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:54 pm 
 

I keep hearing moderate dems and bernie/warren haters of all stripes saying that going for m4a or a left wing candidate will result in 1000 year reich of trumps, but I don't see the logic of this claim. In 2016 the moderate strategy of diving for the center completely backfired, so I don't see why doing the exact same thing in even more extreme circumstance is expected to have a different outcome. The same things that depressed voter turn out then would be at play in a Biden v Trump scenario and Trump has way more resources and has been campaigning for an extra four years at this point. I really think people overestimate how much non-voters and non-political people are going to turn out merely to vote for "not trump" and underestimate how much they need to believe there will be some positive benefit to voting (not just the avoidance of a negative outcome in Trump's re-election). To summarize, I hope there aren't enough people like you out there to convince the voters we need to get out that they should just surrender all hope of something different, because that will just make them stay home and guarantee 4 more years of Trump (I'm not ready to claim that it would necessarily lead to a Trump constitutional amendment making him president for life like you seem to think :P ).
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:36 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
If you think socialism is a better ideal than contemporary Denmark, Sweden, or Finland, then there's no point discussing this further, so I'll see myself out. Hopefully there aren't enough of you to give us 4 more years of Trump followed by 18 years of Ivanka and Trump Jr.

Bruh.
https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/20 ... eal-thing/
https://medium.com/@erlendkulanderkvitr ... 18145e5f4p
https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/20 ... me-wealth/
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Subrick
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:13 pm 
 

Earthcubed living up to his custom title in spades.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:48 am 
 

It really just doesn't compute. Sanders calls himself a Democratic Socialist. He uses the Nordic model as his blueprint for America.

For a metric fuckton of reasons, America will never be Venezuela or Bolivia or Cuba, so if that's what you've decided socialism is then you have nothing to worry about. Although honestly, I don't think it's too disingenuous to say another Trump term could probably set the US on the road to destitution, exorbitant nepotism and astounding amounts of corruption, all hallmarks of the things we accuse those countries of having. You listening, RugglesTx?
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ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:11 pm 
 

PvtNinjer wrote:
For me, it's more the obviously cynical deployment of this kind of divisive identity issue at a very "convenient" time that has people viewing it with a cynical eye. Why leak this now? Not to mention the uncharacteristic nature of what's being alleged. Thinking Liz Warren is a liar has nothing to do with "being woke". What makes "fake woke" anyway? If being skeptical of Warren calls into questions someone's ethics and values it seems like a pretty useless standard to hold people, no? Using the rhetoric around sexual assault and me too in this fashion (not saying that you are specifically, but it's a popular argument right now) is really distasteful to me too.

I do agree it's likely that Bernie may have said something that could have been either misunderstood, giving the benefit of the doubt, or straight up twisted and deliberately misconstrued. Seeing as those types of smears are a popular play pro capitalist liberals employ against more left wing candidates (see the Corbyn debacle) AND the convenient timing of the leak, I'm inclined to believe the later.

It's fine to be skeptical. It's fine to think it was no doubt a misunderstanding. But saying that it's impossible that Sanders could have said something like this, when said thing isn't even that unlikely or even really that problematic and is more an attack on the electorate than on Warren herself (though Warren would be understandably miffed regardless)? Now that's some horseshit I can't get behind. It's putting some dude on a pedestal like he can do no wrong and never ever put his foot in his mouth when we all know he's done so (as did any politicians).
(The "fake woke" part is just me throwing shade at dd, 'cause Satan knows he earned it :P)

Ezadara wrote:
Folks have been a whole lot more than skeptical of Warren. Pretty much the instant this stuff came up people (I say people, I mean Sanders fans) started assailing her with accusations of lying, calling her a snake, comparing her to Hillary Clinton ('cause what the heck, let's dredge up 2016 again while we're at it), all alongside the usual 'corporate shill' and 'mainstream media' rhetoric. You have people in this very thread point blank saying there is absolutely no chance of any veracity to what Warren said. Hardly anybody brought up even the possibility that, hey, maybe it was a misunderstanding.

This.
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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3887
Location: Ubique
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:54 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
It really just doesn't compute. Sanders calls himself a Democratic Socialist. He uses the Nordic model as his blueprint for America.

For a metric fuckton of reasons, America will never be Venezuela or Bolivia or Cuba, so if that's what you've decided socialism is then you have nothing to worry about.


He is a social democrat, regardless of whatever he calls himself. Socialism means "state ownership of production as a preceding step towards communism," not "nice things I like about northern Europe phrased differently because I think capitalism is a dirty word." Words have meanings.


Socialists called people like Sanders "social fascists" in the 1920's and 1930's, FYI.
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iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9748
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:07 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
The reality is that universal healthcare was started by a right-wing Prussian reactionary trying to prevent the spread of actual socialism in his country. That is its origin. Doesn't matter how many adjectives you put in front of the word, it is not socialism.


Earthcubed wrote:
Socialists called people like Sanders "social fascists" in the 1920's and 1930's, FYI.


I get that some of the heavy hitters in this thread are more centrist than I am and whatever, that's fine, I trust all of the non-Trump fans here to do the right thing come the general election, but what the fuck is this horseshit? Of all the galaxy brain takes I didn't think I'd see in this thread, it'd be a liberal pulling a double co-opt smear by taking the tankie argument of "universal healthcare is bad because it placates the proles into not wanting revolution because it prevents life from getting shitty enough to spark it" and twisting it as a secretly reactionary plot that Sanders is employing as a "social fascist".

Just... holy shit I'm staring at my computer like the album cover for Paul McCartney II right now.
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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:13 pm 
 

How is the mere act of stating historical facts a smear or a "take?"
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iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:19 pm 
 

Yeah in Germany you learn those two things in high school history.
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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:20 pm 
 

It's also a historical fact that the KKK was founded by democrats but you know damn well that that is only ever brought up in bad faith gotchas.
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droneriot
incelgender

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:25 pm 
 

Actually in every country in the world right now that does not have a first past the post two-party system you can clearly see that social democracy and socialism 1) are not the same and 2) are not best buddies by default. The German social democratic party categorically ruled out coalition governments with the socialist party for decades and still does so on a federal level and you can see the same across much of Europe. That's a "bad faith gotcha"? Well it's how it is. Reality is a bad faith gotcha, I guess.
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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:29 pm 
 

I know there's a difference, it's a long running joke in lefty circles that "Bernie killed Rosa Luxemburg". The bad faith gotcha is a vocal non-fan of Sanders trying to tie words like "fascist" and "reactionary" to Sanders and his policies and if y'all're gonna act that fucking dense about it then I don't know what to tell you.
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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3887
Location: Ubique
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:31 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
It's also a historical fact that the KKK was founded by democrats but you know damn well that that is only ever brought up in bad faith gotchas.


Sorry but I don't have the patience to respond to this with anything other than a gif, so take a look in the mirror before arguing bad-faith and have a nice fucking day.

Image
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iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

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Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:24 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
I know there's a difference, it's a long running joke in lefty circles that "Bernie killed Rosa Luxemburg". The bad faith gotcha is a vocal non-fan of Sanders trying to tie words like "fascist" and "reactionary" to Sanders and his policies and if y'all're gonna act that fucking dense about it then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't think Earthcubed was referring to Sanders as fascist. They were pointing out that historically socialists have never considered people like Sanders to be 'one of them' as further evidence that the 'Sanders is a socialist/Medicare For All is socialism' argument is dumb. That's how I read it, anyway.

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Mellifleur
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:57 pm 
 

Social fascist was a term used by the communist party of the soviet union, and other communist parties who were members of the comintern and thus took orders from the comintern, to describe social democratic and non-comintern left wing parties in the period right before WWII. The idea was that because they didn't follow the party line coming from the Soviet Union led by Stalin, that their policies would necessarily result in fascists taking power. They stopped using this term after the pact between Stalin and Hitler became known and these parties had to make an abrupt about face on calling for opposition to Hitler's Germany. The equivalent today would be Tankies calling social democrats cryptofa. It was bs then and it's bs now. It's just a slur that Earthcubed is bringing up to stir shit assuming people don't know the history of things. Expect more behavior like this from other enlightened centrists.

Who ever said Sanders was a revolutionary communist anyway, besides fox news pundits and my dad? This whole line of argument is completely barking in the dark.
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