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Burnyoursins
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
Posts: 1085
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:15 pm 
 

Nowhere in socialist doctrine is there the words "Preceding communism". They are different. You may not like them, and they definitely have certain similarities but communism and socialism are not the same fucking thing. Ignoring all that, Sanders would be considered just left of center in just about every other Western country that isn't the USA. He is not a socialist, he doesn't even fucking come close.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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insanewayne253
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:04 am
Posts: 118
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:34 pm 
 

Socialism, Social Fascism, Social Democrat, Moderate. At this point who cares. Unite and defeat or keep doing this circular firing squad and you're going to hand Trump another 4 years. Stop wanting to fall in love with a specific candidate. For shit's sake no matter who the Democrats nominate, the Republicans are going to use their apparatus to paint them as some radical "socialist cultural Marxist who will try and change America for the better." Any candidate in this primary has fairly good ideas, it's just how are they going to get implemented is the bigger question.

I sure as hell don't want 4 years of revenge and "owning the libs" (whatever the fuck that means, pretty shallow reason to vote for Trump anyway; especially when he stood for nothing and was saying a lot of shit the Republican base were thinking, i.e. racist, xenophobic, great replacement conspiracy bullshit) Not to mention the Supreme Court is kind of important this round. Is this the same thing happening with other authoritarian right wing shitlords around the world (Erdogan, Duente, Orban, Bolsanario, Johnson, el Sisi, MBS, Modi and their sort of cult of personality)

oh yeah and fuck Brexit. Have fun with your recession.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:57 pm 
 

Wouldn't be a circular firing squad if someone finally stepped forward to take down first past the post. And yeah I've read that Trudeau promised just that in Canada and it turned out to be not that easy, it should still be a goal. It's a godawful system especially considering how much the Republican party has been shown prone to hijacking from extremist nutjobs time and again.
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Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 648
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:12 pm 
 

I have to say that I disagree that "any candidate in this primary has fairly good ideas". Frankly, I don't think that Mayor Pete has any ideas. Biden is just going to "government" how any middle of the road dem would. So, if your point is that you'd take any of those candidates over Trump, I get that. But if we're discussing what policies we like, then of course we are going to identify with specific candidates more.

I also think it's a bad idea to tell people not to care which candidate gets the nom. The way we beat Trump is high voter turnout and, to get that turnout, there has to be organic excitement in the candidate. People were excited to vote for Obama. People were excited to vote for Trump. Your every day voter was not excited to vote for Hillary. In fact, your every day voters didn't even have a favorable view of her.

Right now, Bernie has the highest margin of "favorability" amongst all candidates. Biden is a distant second. This is why I worry that the dems open bias against Bernie will lead to us repeating 2016 all over again. A very low energy Biden campaign bumbling and stumbling against an emboldened Trump base that will beat him. And the centrist dems will play the "how could this have possibly happened" card all over again while failing to recognize that they are the problem. You'd think that after seeing Bernie in 2016 and then the 2018 progressive rush, they'd get out of their own way but it doesn't appear they're ready to do that just yet.

All that said, I am glad to see Bernie and Warren out and about together today. This whole leak still makes me skeptical of Warren but we do need the progressives standing together if we're going to have a shot at winning in November.

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insanewayne253
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:04 am
Posts: 118
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:14 pm 
 

Bernie has high favorability in coastal states. He’ll kill there, however the suburban vote as well as the black and Hispanic vote are crucial (black vote leans toward Biden, Hispanics are leaning Bernie or Warren). Remember Hillary WON the popular vote by almost 3 million and there is that possibility that the Dem nominee could win the popular vote by 5 million and Trump could STILL win re-election via the EC. That’s what i’m afraid of. Also the main reason Hilary lost in WI, MI, and PA was because everyone thought they had those states in the bag. Hell, a lot of places stopped polling just weeks before the election. I think whoever is the nominee, we’re not going to be taking anything for granted this round.

What needs to happen then is ranked choice voting, but I don’t see that happening nationwide. There’s going to be too much pushback on it from small rural states. Right now the best that can be done is simply play the cards you’re dealt. Don’t hate the player hate the game som

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Bingewolf
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:02 pm 
 

Actually, a poll came out just a few days ago that showed Bernie and Biden statistically tied in terms of black voters. Here: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/z3bnvw/exclusive-poll-just-as-many-african-americans-say-theyd-consider-voting-for-bernie-sanders-as-joe-biden

Also, in terms of the blue collar swing states (MI, WI, PA), Bernie is polling higher than Trump. In fact, I was just listening to a NPR podcast that was focused on those very states and Bernie is polling ahead of Trump, where Biden is behind.

I know that it's a popular centrist talking point that we need a centrist candidate who can win votes outside of major cities - but that would be willfully ignoring Bernie's entire career, which has been dedicated to helping working families and underserved communities. Frankly, it's those candidates like Biden and Hillary that just expect to have support from those communities rather than working on their behalf to earn their support.

To your point, Hillary and her campaign just thought they had it in the bag and didn't do the work to win and that's unlikely to happen in 2020 from any candidate... However, you still need a candidate that people are excited to vote for.

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Trashy_Rambo
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:41 pm 
 

Joe Biden delivering the eulogy for Strom Thurmond, defending being friendly with segregationists, and then marching on MLK day. American politics, ladies and gentlemen.
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:36 am 
 

People seem to so easily forget presidents have almost never lost reelection, especially during a relatively strong economy. The only two "recent" reelection losses were Carter, who spent most of his presidency fighting his own party, and Bush Sr., who dicked around with the monumentally unpopular Gulf War. Something major is going to need to happen to dislodge the Trump Train; barring another economic crash or the start of a literal war with Iran (both possible but not likely to transpire in just 10 months), Biden will be the Dukakis, Dole, Kerry and Romney of 2020. I guaran-fucken-tee it. Every single person pressing for Biden is indistinguishable from the people begging us for Kerry over Dean to take down Bush. How'd that work out for ya?

Sure, Bernie's a bit of a wildcard; it's not yet known if all the people he's bringing in to the political process will be big enough to counter the red scare propaganda. But give me a possible loss over a 100% beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt loss.

Biden scabs are the real accelerationists, fam.
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Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 154
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:41 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Bush Sr., who dicked around with the monumentally unpopular Gulf War.

Not to nitpick, but the Gulf War was the opposite of monumentally unpopular. I mean, it made Bush the most popular president in the history of approval ratings. The public and the administration both viewed it as a kind of cleansing of the failings of Vietnam and throughout the course of the war public support for both Bush and the war remained high. Bush lost because the Reagan tax cuts caused an economic recession and his handling of it infuriated the Republican right and gave Clinton fodder to hold him responsible for the country's slow recovery.

This is a mostly irrelevant tangent and your broader point (it's really damn hard to beat an incumbent during a perceived strong economy) is still totally true, the presidential history nerd in me just had to jump in.

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insanewayne253
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:04 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:20 am 
 

Ross Perot also ate into some of HW Bush’s vote totals in some states. Bill Clinton won some states that normally go red such as GA and MT. Republicans were kinda pissed that Bush 41 got robbed of a second term. But it was the final nail in the coffin for Reaganomics. Of course Newt Gingrich felt empowered and put together The Contract for America and eschewed in the politics of personal destruction.

The economy isn’t THAT good. Stocks go up wages don’t. Manufacturing here in the US is in recession and still in shambles, the China trade deal was just a hollow agreement without any real enforcement (more like Trump got his ass handed to him by Xi and he capitulated just to say “I got a deal done.). And the effect of Brexit on the world economy is still an unknown unknown. Plus Trump’s approval rating are still shitty. People seem to want to turn the page but they’re taking a wait and see what the Democrats have to offer.

I’ve read polls where Biden has a good lead over Trump in MI and PA but tied in WI. I need to look at the polling of Sanders v Trump in those states. You also need to try and put more states in play like AZ, NC, and possibly GA as they’re trending purple. Some are even saying TX could be in play but for now I think that’s fools gold for the Democrats for the time being. we’ll see. I personally take anything Vice says with a small grain of salt.

One caveat I did see is that Bloomberg said he’ll put 1 billion of his money into getting Democrats elected no matter who the nominee is even if it’s Sanders or Warren. The road to November is going to get bloody as hell.

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Burnyoursins
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
Posts: 1085
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:19 am 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
Ross Perot also ate into some of HW Bush’s vote totals in some states. Bill Clinton won some states that normally go red such as GA and MT. Republicans were kinda pissed that Bush 41 got robbed of a second term. But it was the final nail in the coffin for Reaganomics. Of course Newt Gingrich felt empowered and put together The Contract for America and eschewed in the politics of personal destruction.

The economy isn’t THAT good. Stocks go up wages don’t. Manufacturing here in the US is in recession and still in shambles, the China trade deal was just a hollow agreement without any real enforcement (more like Trump got his ass handed to him by Xi and he capitulated just to say “I got a deal done.). And the effect of Brexit on the world economy is still an unknown unknown. Plus Trump’s approval rating are still shitty. People seem to want to turn the page but they’re taking a wait and see what the Democrats have to offer.

I’ve read polls where Biden has a good lead over Trump in MI and PA but tied in WI. I need to look at the polling of Sanders v Trump in those states. You also need to try and put more states in play like AZ, NC, and possibly GA as they’re trending purple. Some are even saying TX could be in play but for now I think that’s fools gold for the Democrats for the time being. we’ll see. I personally take anything Vice says with a small grain of salt.

One caveat I did see is that Bloomberg said he’ll put 1 billion of his money into getting Democrats elected no matter who the nominee is even if it’s Sanders or Warren. The road to November is going to get bloody as hell.


See, that's exactly it. I trade for a living. The American economy is strong on paper only. Stocks keep going through the roof, but the only ones who are seeing any tangible results from that are people who wouldn't suffer if the US plunged into the depths of another recession anyway. Wages have been stagnate for 20 years, inflation is going up. Unemployment is low, but a large majority of those jobs are low-paying jobs that employ people who need two or three of those jobs just to even THINK about surviving. The China trade deal won't do shit, because like you said, Trump got his ass handed to him because he is not, in fact, a strong negotiator. He's a loud-mouth dickhead who snagged a trade deal that doesn't improve ANYTHING and in fact might make things worse. He's been reaping the benefits of previous Obama administration policies for 3 years now. The only thing he has succeeded in doing is bankrupting retail investors so that billionaires can swoop in and buy stocks at their bottoms. Regular working stiffs haven't seen even the slightest improvement to their conditions, no matter what all these poor Trump supporters will tell you. His ratings are in the toilet. In fact, I think they may be the lowest ever. The conditions are perfect for an incumbent presidential loss in the general election, provided the DNC makes the right call and puts the right person(s) on the ticket. And Biden ain't it, I guarantee it. He has name recognition, but the man doesn't excite anyone. And like has been stated a hundred times in this thread, you need the non-voting bloc to actually get out and vote this time around, because you can bet your ass the fervent Trump supporters will en masse.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:42 am 
 

Yeah the strong economy argument is actually super weak because material conditions haven't improved one iota for the regular joe (and have in fact worsened for many). A lot of conservatives who aren't in a cushy enough position to actually benefit from a surging stock market don't seem to care all that much though because simply being told "the economy is good" seems to be enough for them even as they enter the tenth year of a pay freeze or whatever. Or if they hear "actually things are worse" they can and will easily rationalize it as it being okay because the ones being hurt are the ones that deserve it anyway. The cruelty is the point, as they say. You all know the tweet that goes around: "The stock market is a funny thing because when it's up, nothing changes, and when it's down you lose your job."

I work in the auto industry on the manufacturing side and believe me business has plummeted in the few years I've been here. I'd wager a vast majority of my coworkers are, if not Trump supporters, at least conservative leaning, and if not that then mostly apolitical (which as we know favors reactionaries). The one political opinion that basically everybody there except me and like three other people hold is that they're fiercely anti-union. Whether they're uninformed, misinformed, or just mean spirited doesn't really matter, the end result is that many of these people favor policies that only hurt them. It was the same at my last job too, which blew me away when you consider the exact circumstances there. When Trump won the election, the owners (who were the children of the company's founder and thus have been millionaires their whole lives and were all handed VP positions the day they turned 20) actively celebrated and even threw a work party to celebrate because "the country is finally getting back on track." Then they went on to have their most profitable year ever and simultaneously decided to halt our yearly cost of living raises (they didn't even do merit raises, everybody got a flat 2% increase every year). It absolutely blew me away that a vast majority of our coworkers could see our millionaire bosses acting like Scrooge McDuck diving into his money vault while simultaneously deciding to give us even less scraps than usual and offering no explanation about it, and still go home every day thinking "Yes, these guys are on our side and things have never been better."
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:07 am 
 

Yeah I think I can understand American political opinions reasonably well, but that anti-union shit has dumbfounded me for two decades and I don't think I will ever in any way understand it.
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Burnyoursins
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
Posts: 1085
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:25 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Yeah the strong economy argument is actually super weak because material conditions haven't improved one iota for the regular joe (and have in fact worsened for many). A lot of conservatives who aren't in a cushy enough position to actually benefit from a surging stock market don't seem to care all that much though because simply being told "the economy is good" seems to be enough for them even as they enter the tenth year of a pay freeze or whatever. Or if they hear "actually things are worse" they can and will easily rationalize it as it being okay because the ones being hurt are the ones that deserve it anyway. The cruelty is the point, as they say. You all know the tweet that goes around: "The stock market is a funny thing because when it's up, nothing changes, and when it's down you lose your job."

I work in the auto industry on the manufacturing side and believe me business has plummeted in the few years I've been here. I'd wager a vast majority of my coworkers are, if not Trump supporters, at least conservative leaning, and if not that then mostly apolitical (which as we know favors reactionaries). The one political opinion that basically everybody there except me and like three other people hold is that they're fiercely anti-union. Whether they're uninformed, misinformed, or just mean spirited doesn't really matter, the end result is that many of these people favor policies that only hurt them. It was the same at my last job too, which blew me away when you consider the exact circumstances there. When Trump won the election, the owners (who were the children of the company's founder and thus have been millionaires their whole lives and were all handed VP positions the day they turned 20) actively celebrated and even threw a work party to celebrate because "the country is finally getting back on track." Then they went on to have their most profitable year ever and simultaneously decided to halt our yearly cost of living raises (they didn't even do merit raises, everybody got a flat 2% increase every year). It absolutely blew me away that a vast majority of our coworkers could see our millionaire bosses acting like Scrooge McDuck diving into his money vault while simultaneously deciding to give us even less scraps than usual and offering no explanation about it, and still go home every day thinking "Yes, these guys are on our side and things have never been better."


I worked in sheet metal for many years before taking a wide veer into finance, I absolutely agree with you. I worked with a union for most of my apprenticeship, until I had been out of work awhile and had to take a non-union gig. The way these people actively work against themselves is fucking stunning. Some guy shows up on site and says, "If you're interested in making a better wage and having more reliable benefits, come join up with the union", and these dudes fly off the fucking handle shouting all sorts of obscenities at the man about how the union is horse shit and the union is killing their wages. Like, man, you're the one killing your wages. These company owners don't give one fuck about you. The second they lose $10k in quarter, they will cut your job loose so fast your head will spin. All the union is trying to do is level the playing field, and workers at non-union companies actively voting AGAINST unions is just making any sort of leverage a union has less effective. Who gives a shit if the union goes on strike if you can hire thousands of people who don't give a shit whether they're getting a decent wage or not, so long as they're working? And the absolutely BAFFLING lack of understanding when it comes to basic economics is just fucking staggering. These sorts of folks all think they know how it works, despite clearly being fucking clueless. The Trump-Forever crowd are especially guilty of this. No, your economy is NOT very strong, and even the numbers suggesting it is aren't a direct cause of Trump's policies, they're the after-burn of Obama policies.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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Bingewolf
Metalhead

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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:46 am 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
personally take anything Vice says with a small grain of salt.


That’s just a media bias. If you look at the poll, you will see that it was conducted by Ipsos, which is considered one of the top national polls period.

The Vice name is on it because they wanted a poll focused on non-white voters ahead of their Black & Brown Town Hall with all the candidates yesterday.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:55 am 
 

Corporations and the various Republican governments we've had for several decades now have spent a LOT of money and man hours convincing the public that unions are a bad thing. They have convinced people that unions are bad for your wages, that unions will limit your access to health insurance, that union heads are to blame when a company lays people off, etc. If Republicans had their way unencumbered by resistance, they'd take labor standards back to the 1900s and 1910s, when 10 year olds were made to work in hazardous environments and bosses could lock their workers in a high rise building to keep them from leaving before closing time, all while paying them pretty much no money.
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Burnyoursins
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:45 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Corporations and the various Republican governments we've had for several decades now have spent a LOT of money and man hours convincing the public that unions are a bad thing. They have convinced people that unions are bad for your wages, that unions will limit your access to health insurance, that union heads are to blame when a company lays people off, etc. If Republicans had their way unencumbered by resistance, they'd take labor standards back to the 1900s and 1910s, when 10 year olds were made to work in hazardous environments and bosses could lock their workers in a high rise building to keep them from leaving before closing time, all while paying them pretty much no money.


You can never trust people who are so driven by profits to look out for you. It is not, in fact, in their best interests to do so, despite what everyone who supports conservative policies will tell you. Looking out for you is a blow to their bottom line, and if they could get away with paying you $0.50 for your labour per hour, they'd do it in a heart beat. I look at these earnings reports for a living. I know exactly why these companies scale back expansion and cut jobs. Because come next quarter, that will have shaved off a load on their profit margins and they can get big-money investors to buy their stock. They can give themselves nice big bonuses. They can raise their own salaries. It's all a monumental joke. It wasn't until I actually became involved in trading full-time that I really realized what kind of smoke and mirrors game it all is. If the only reason a company is driven to raise wages or donate money is to generate positive public relations, how can you trust that when the chips are down, they'll give even one iota of a fuck what happens to you?
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:08 pm 
 

Hillary attacked Bernie again, that should give him at least a 20% boost in polls.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:58 pm 
 

I dunno, I don't want to go all tinfoil hat and all, but by this point I think a woman that smart should know that everything she says is probably going to make people think the exact opposite is true? I see her recent statements as an endorsement of Tulsi Gabbard and Bernie Sanders because I figure she's smart enough to know that everybody who votes blue says "whatever Hillary says, best to do the opposite."

-edit- Unexpected post deletion by Mellifleur made this a double post, not my doing.
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Mellifleur
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:02 pm 
 

Oh, I'll just go ahead and post it, but the double post by droneriot stands. :D

I think at this point she's come out against Bernie more times than she's come out against Trump. I know ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM is a meme, but it is telling where centrist priorities lie when you look at where their real bile is directed.
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Musick
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:03 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Hillary attacked Bernie again, that should give him at least a 20% boost in polls.


Now a second video of yet another paid staffer, Martin Weissgerber, calling for sending fellow Americans to gulags and murdering them will forever keep Sanders out of presidential contention. Bernie has yet to fire Kyle Jurek which tells me that Sanders is at least sympathetic to the extremists in his campaign.

A substantial minority of right-leaning individuals have long suspected Bernie of being a commie. Bernie is either unable or unwilling to condemn the far left rhetoric espoused by his own staff. He is done.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:07 pm 
 

You can't be serious after the David Duke endorsement and the Charlotteville terror attack "good people" stuff, if that was a valid argument then impeachment would have been done and approved by Senate years ago and you'd already have had your presidential at the midterms. Obviously nobody in America gives a rat's ass about "lack of distance from extremists" and you know that.
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Musick
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:09 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Obviously nobody in America gives a rat's ass about "lack of distance from extremists" and you know that.


You sir, are insane if you believe that.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:10 pm 
 

After the president of the United States endorses a terrorist attack? Seriously?
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Musick
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:15 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
After the president of the United States endorses a terrorist attack? Seriously?


Youre talking about Soleimani? If so I have nothing else to say to you as we will never understand each other.
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Mellifleur
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:16 pm 
 

In fairness, in the US being close to right wing extremists is not considered as taboo as being close to left wing extremists. Consider how many republicans in state/national office have been busted cavorting with straight up Nazis (or just being a straight up Nazi themselves) and haven't had the good decency to slink off in shame. But perhaps times are changing and I can finally open up about my time in the weather underground! :)
Musick wrote:
droneriot wrote:
After the president of the United States endorses a terrorist attack? Seriously?


Youre talking about Soleimani? If so I have nothing else to say to you as we will never understand each other.

Did you read the post before responding? He specifically mentioned the Charlottesville attack. Are literally two sentences too much to read to not look completely silly, man? :P
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:20 pm 
 

Musick wrote:
Youre talking about Soleimani? If so I have nothing else to say to you as we will never understand each other.

I am still talking about Charlotteville and the president of the United States endorsing a terrorist attack against American citizens. Something no real conservative should support, but somehow they get suckered in by the "owning the libs" rhetoric instead of actually looking after their own best interests and protecting their families and homes like conservatives used to do. People nowadays pretend to be conservatives, but when their friends and families are threatened they no longer want to defend themselves, they cheer for it. Conservatives in the United States seemingly ceased to exist and only self-destructive psychopaths remain.
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Musick
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:43 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:58 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
I am still talking about Charlotteville and the president of the United States endorsing a terrorist attack against American citizens..


For any honest person to conclude that the president somehow praised neo-nazis reveals a blatant and blinding level of bias.

Donald Trump wrote:
“Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”


At the same press conference, Trump became even more explicit:
Donald Trump wrote:
“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:04 pm 
 

Yes they should be, how about doing it.

There's literally been a terrorist attack on American soil against American citizens and the response is "yeah I guess maybe those kinds of people should be condemned but I can't be arsed to actually do it." like what the fucking fuck, what real conservative would stand for that? That could have been your daughter or sister or wife or mother who died and your president is squirming around it? Nah you're not a conservative, you're just anti-American.

If a Republican POTUS can't take a real stance against terrorist attacks on American soil against American citizens, how sad is that.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:17 pm 
 

Musick wrote:
droneriot wrote:
Hillary attacked Bernie again, that should give him at least a 20% boost in polls.


Now a second video of yet another paid staffer, Martin Weissgerber, calling for sending fellow Americans to gulags and murdering them will forever keep Sanders out of presidential contention. Bernie has yet to fire Kyle Jurek which tells me that Sanders is at least sympathetic to the extremists in his campaign.


Nothing wrong with gulag if you send the right people.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:30 pm 
 

I reported your post because my paternal grandfather was in a gulag and honestly nothing will ever justify that kind of shit. If you honestly believe that kind of stuff is ever justified, the slave labour, the starvation, the torture, the constant fear of random killings, there's something seriously wrong with you. No human being, not a single one, not even pedophiles or child murderers or any of the worst of the worst ever deserves something like that.

There's something I read years ago saying that people think the bible quote "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" is understood as a paraphrase for revenge but is actually rooted in a Babylonian criminal code that says no punishment may ever exceed the crime, literally saying that if you poke someone's eye out, the worst punishment you can get is lose an eye, and if you knock someone's teeth out, the worst punishment you can get is losing your teeth. Nazi concentration camps and Soviet gulags can never meet that code because their punishment will always be far worse than the crimes they punish for, and the Babylonians got it right that that's just morally wrong on so many levels.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:36 pm 
 

You don't think the "fine people" who put on the Charlottesville travesty couldn't have benefited from a little time busting rocks on short rations and thinking about what they've done? I know I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:42 pm 
 

Yeah they were "fine people" like you who believe human life has no value.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:55 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Yeah they were "fine people" like you who believe human life has no value.


Where do you get that I have, "no respect for human life," because I advocate putting terrorists in jail?
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:00 pm 
 

You don't have to advocate for that in this case. The terrorist that was responsible for the attack is currently serving life in prison without a chance of parole.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:03 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
droneriot wrote:
Yeah they were "fine people" like you who believe human life has no value.


Where do you get that I have, "no respect for human life," because I advocate putting terrorists in jail?

Gulags were not jails, they were concentration camps.

The fuck kind of person would say concentration camps are just jails. Despicable.
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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:06 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
You don't have to advocate for that in this case. The terrorist that was responsible for the attack is currently serving life in prison without a chance of parole.


The rest of the nazis are free as birds, though, and they're all just as responsible as the dick in the Dodge.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:08 pm 
 

Well, yeah. I think not putting people in prison for the ideas they hold is a good thing.

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:09 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
droneriot wrote:
Yeah they were "fine people" like you who believe human life has no value.


Where do you get that I have, "no respect for human life," because I advocate putting terrorists in jail?

Gulags were not jails, they were concentration camps.


All jails are "concentration camps." They're places where people deemed a problem by society are concentrated in camps. Your complaint is with the freighted history of a word, but that's just semantics.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:10 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Well, yeah. I think not putting people in prison for the ideas they hold is a good thing.


People who actively participate in actions designed to terrorize the vulnerable don't just "hold ideas."
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