Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9466
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:15 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
All jails are "concentration camps." They're places where people deemed a problem by society are concentrated in camps. Your complaint is with the freighted history of a word, but that's just semantics.

Random murder, forced labour, torture and forced starvation are just semantics, okay. You have no business interacting with normal people, get lost. I think this is half a step away from even Morrigan agreeing with me as people here know will cause an interdimensional rift that summons the dark lord Cthulhu to reign over Earth, your posts are fucked up as hell.
_________________
Alpha Drone - Cobra Tattoo - Black metal song of the year
Lobotomizer - The world's worst motion comic

Top
 Profile  
Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:20 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
All jails are "concentration camps." They're places where people deemed a problem by society are concentrated in camps. Your complaint is with the freighted history of a word, but that's just semantics.

If you think Soviet gulags and American jails are even remotely comparable, you obviously have zero clue what either of those words means.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:25 pm 
 

Are any of y'all actually familiar with the history of what has gone on in American prisons, indeed what still goes on in American prisons. The notion that there is some vast gulf between our "jails" and the "concentration camps" and "gulags" of other nations is rooted in an ignorance of how our carceral society has functioned and continues to function.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:28 pm 
 

Some of y'all have the luxury of treating fascism as, "ideas," that some people, "hold." Those of us targeted for extermination under fascist rule don't have that privilege. We have to take it as the deadly, existential threat that it is.

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9466
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:37 pm 
 

Yeah and you're praising concentration camps so we know exactly what the existential fascist threat is.
_________________
Alpha Drone - Cobra Tattoo - Black metal song of the year
Lobotomizer - The world's worst motion comic

Top
 Profile  
henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3962
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:46 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
henkkjelle wrote:
Well, yeah. I think not putting people in prison for the ideas they hold is a good thing.


People who actively participate in actions designed to terrorize the vulnerable don't just "hold ideas."


What do you propose? You want to have the FBI hunt down every person that was at the rally and put them in a camp?

Top
 Profile  
Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:49 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Some of y'all have the luxury of treating fascism as, "ideas," that some people, "hold." Those of us targeted for extermination under fascist rule don't have that privilege. We have to take it as the deadly, existential threat that it is.

You're right. It's not that you have no clue just how horrific the Soviet gulag system was, or how insulting it is to claim it and the American prison system are equally terrible, it's that the rest of us who do are privileged. Can't argue with that ironclad logic.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:52 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
henkkjelle wrote:
Well, yeah. I think not putting people in prison for the ideas they hold is a good thing.


People who actively participate in actions designed to terrorize the vulnerable don't just "hold ideas."


What do you propose? You want to have the FBI hunt down every person that was at the rally and put them in a camp?


Jail would suffice, but yes, at the very least, the organizers of the rally should also be serving life sentences.

Top
 Profile  
henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3962
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:55 pm 
 

Well at least you're honest about being an authoritarian.

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9466
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:57 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
You're right. It's not that you have no clue just how horrific the Soviet gulag system was, or how insulting it is to claim it and the American prison system are equally terrible, it's that the rest of us who do are privileged. Can't argue with that ironclad logic.

Get up to work 4am, work till 10pm. Food is optional. Clothes are the same you'd wear at your home, except at -30C, working will keep you warm. Killings and torture are up to the moods of the overseers' moods. Just do your stuff, be quiet, survive, that's the general idea of it. Definitely any guy deserves that after he lost his leg to a bullet and lost his home in a fire bombing where his wife and children were present because he was drafted and therefore had a swastika somewhere on his uniform.
_________________
Alpha Drone - Cobra Tattoo - Black metal song of the year
Lobotomizer - The world's worst motion comic

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:01 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
You're right. It's not that you have no clue just how horrific the Soviet gulag system was, or how insulting it is to claim it and the American prison system are equally terrible


Again, are you actually familiar with the history of the American prison system? With its documented history of decades of horrific medical experimentation on inmates? How about the long history of the system of renting out convicts as slave labor (a practice which continues, by the way)? What about the unmarked mass graves on the sites of many Southern prisons (ie Angola Farm in Louisiana)? Have you considered the ways that prisons have been and are being used to pursue the cultural destruction of Black folks as a people (which, incidentally, is genocide)?

You're trying to draw hard moral lines where none really exist. Your claim is essentially that I have to be empathetic toward my oppressor, or I am somehow just as bad. This is a bankrupt argument. My oppressors want me and everyone like me dead because of who we are. I simply want them suppressed as a force in the political and social life of the nation and community in which I must live. That is self-defense and nothing more.


Last edited by Sedition and Pockets on Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:04 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Well at least you're honest about being an authoritarian.


All forms of state organization are fundamentally authoritarian. The state is nothing more or less than a force for the organization of violence. States exist solely for the suppression of one class by another. The real question is whose interests the state advances, and whose they suppress. Everything else is just window dressing.

Top
 Profile  
Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:18 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Your claim is essentially that I have to be empathetic toward my oppressor, or I am somehow just as bad.

That is obviously not what I'm claiming, but it seems like you're pretty determined to draw a moral equivalency between the United States and countries like the Soviet Union, so I don't think there's much sense in me trying to be any clearer.

Top
 Profile  
darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4991
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:22 pm 
 

People reeeaaaaallllly don't wanna go down the "whose prison system is worse" route because the relative opulence of the US compared to the USSR and incarceral conditions therein do not show up in the US's favor.
_________________
ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:30 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Your claim is essentially that I have to be empathetic toward my oppressor, or I am somehow just as bad.

That is obviously not what I'm claiming, but it seems like you're pretty determined to draw a moral equivalency between the United States and countries like the Soviet Union, so I don't think there's much sense in me trying to be any clearer.


So, you think that the United States, built on the twin foundations of chattel slavery and the most complete genocide in human history, is clearly morally superior to the Soviet Union? Do the bodies only count if they've been buried in the last 100 years? I guess the millions that have died in our post-WWII interventions around the world, the millions more that have died at the hands of dictators we supported and propped up, the roughly 10 million people who starve to death every year to pad the bottom lines of American corporations, they don't count either?

Top
 Profile  
Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:33 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
So, you think that the United States, built on the twin foundations of chattel slavery and the most complete genocide in human history, is clearly morally superior to the Soviet Union?

Yes, it is, clearly and unquestionably.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:38 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
So, you think that the United States, built on the twin foundations of chattel slavery and the most complete genocide in human history, is clearly morally superior to the Soviet Union?

Yes, it is, clearly and unquestionably.


On what basis, because it clearly ain't on the basis of body counts?

Top
 Profile  
henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3962
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:52 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
henkkjelle wrote:
Well at least you're honest about being an authoritarian.


All forms of state organization are fundamentally authoritarian. The state is nothing more or less than a force for the organization of violence. States exist solely for the suppression of one class by another. The real question is whose interests the state advances, and whose they suppress. Everything else is just window dressing.


All forms of state organization are fundamentally held together by the threat of force, sure. If I don't pay my taxes and ignore all calls from the goverment for long enough, I might end up in prison. And if I refuse to show up on the correct date armed men might show up at my house to take me there. Not the same thing as authoritarianism though.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:05 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
All forms of state organization are fundamentally held together by the threat of force, sure. If I don't pay my taxes and ignore all calls from the goverment for long enough, I might end up in prison. And if I refuse to show up on the correct date armed men might show up at my house to take me there. Not the same thing as authoritarianism though.


States exist to exercise authority. Their acts are inherently coercive, and are backed by the threat of violence even when not accompanied directly by violence. And they exercise their authority for the exclusive benefit of a single class. That's why if you don't pay your rent or vacate the premises, your landlord can call the cops and have you legally kidnapped, but if your landlord won't keep up the maintenance, you can't call the cops and have him arrested. Democracies hide their violence behind a veneer of consent; it doesn't make their nature any less violent.

Top
 Profile  
henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3962
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:07 pm 
 

Yes a functioning society needs some rules that are able to be enforced somehow.

And hey! Having maintenance standards for landlords can be one of them! At least it's one over here.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:14 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Yes a functioning society needs some rules that are able to be enforced somehow.


Human societies existed for 250000 years without laws or organized bodies of violence. The systemic organization of force to impose order is an artifact of class society and private wealth accumulation.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:32 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
And hey! Having maintenance standards for landlords can be one of them! At least it's one over here.


We have those laws, too. They're just not enforced with state violence, and have to be pursued through the civil courts, because our system privileges the rights of property over the rights of ordinary people.

Top
 Profile  
Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3789
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:37 pm 
 

Nothing is an easier block/ignore/"add foe" than someone who ignores (or is ignorant of) the entirety of human history to further his points in an argument that is at once a grotesque parody of moral relativism, a thinly-veiled call to violence against millions of his fellow citizens, and what can best be described as the mating call of a tankie. Thank you for saying the quiet parts out loud, makes it easier for the rest of us to ignore you.
_________________
iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:43 pm 
 

I've called for a literal handful of violent, dangerous activists to be jailed, and pointed out that the perceived differences between the American prison system and the "gulag" are more in the nature of semantics and propaganda than actual, concrete reality. If you choose that as a, "thinly veiled call for violence against millions," I don't know what to say.

But I would appreciate if you wouldn't misgender me.

Top
 Profile  
darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4991
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:32 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Nothing is an easier block/ignore/"add foe" than someone who ignores (or is ignorant of) the entirety of human history to further his points in an argument that is at once a grotesque parody of moral relativism, a thinly-veiled call to violence against millions of his fellow citizens, and what can best be described as the mating call of a tankie. Thank you for saying the quiet parts out loud, makes it easier for the rest of us to ignore you.

They were talking about electoralism probably not being a good method so I don't see why you're surprised. I personally prefer worker councils but that's neither here nor there.

But the "communism killed 500 million billion people" is a Z grade talking point birthed straight out of The John Birch Society, and if Stalin killed millions cuz communism, what does that say about Democratic capitalism? C'mon man. You're smarter than this.
_________________
ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

Top
 Profile  
Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 604
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:54 pm 
 

The American criminal justice system has long been broken and the US, too, has a history of violence towards its own people. I know this thread is deeply fearful of USSR/communism for some reason, but take a second to think about what our government has done. Japanese internment. Privatized prisons. Homan Square in Chicago (the "black site"). The list goes on and on.

I kind-of thought Sedition was joking with the first gulag comment but then saw everyone else melted down over it and a debate ensued. Even if you were offended by the initial comment, you have to come to terms with the US doing horrible shit to its people too. I especially look at the people to the right on this, because they are often the ones who think the US can do no wrong and fear mongering about these topics.

It's kind of like the earlier comment about unions. Right-leaning types demonize unions. They demonize socialist ideas, like universal health care. They demonize anything that doesn't make sense for their profits or power. They also act as if they are protecting the American people from potential harm as a way to carry out their own agendas, such as killing a government official, overthrowing governments and putting Japanese Americans in internment camps.

So yes, the gulags were bad but if you're offended about gulags, you should also be offended by separating families at the border or what goes on in the criminal justice system.

Top
 Profile  
Ezadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:07 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
On what basis, because it clearly ain't on the basis of body counts?

I have a feeling our values are so radically different and irreconcilable that no explanation I give will make any kind of sense to you, so let's both just spare ourselves the time.

Top
 Profile  
BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9448
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:13 am 
 

I know Red Scare propaganda is deeply, deeply rooted in a lot of anti-communist rhetoric today, and I know that the American justice system is an absolute fucking joke. But let's not counter a statement like "gulags were bad" by just shifting the conversation to how bad America is instead. That's not even really what the thread is about anyway, in fairness.

I'm deep on the left side, but you'll find me in the green square, not the red one. I've got some beef with tankies and the total inability look inwards and say "hey maybe not everything Stalin did was good" is one of them.
_________________
Lair of the Bastard: LATEST REVIEW: Sutrah - Aletheia
The Outer RIM - Uatism: The dogs bark in street slang
ENCYCLOPAEDIA ALBUM OF THE YEAR 2019 RESULTS HERE!

Top
 Profile  
darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4991
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:19 am 
 

As always, Chapo is here for us:



tl;dr: don't be weird

Ezadara wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
On what basis, because it clearly ain't on the basis of body counts?

I have a feeling our values are so radically different and irreconcilable that no explanation I give will make any kind of sense to you, so let's both just spare ourselves the time.

Were your great grandparents Kulaks or something?
_________________
ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:03 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
I know Red Scare propaganda is deeply, deeply rooted in a lot of anti-communist rhetoric today, and I know that the American justice system is an absolute fucking joke. But let's not counter a statement like "gulags were bad" by just shifting the conversation to how bad America is instead. That's not even really what the thread is about anyway, in fairness.


The conversation wasn't about whether gulags are bad. It started from some chucklemonkey claiming an obvious joke from a campaign staffer disqualifies Bernie Sanders as a Presidential candidate, and it lit up because I made a jab that was, in retrospect, a little too sharp and definitely insensitive given the freighted history of the word gulag. That was my mistake, and as much as this shit activates my fear and anger, I will nonetheless endeavor not to needlessly give offense in the future.

Quote:
I'm deep on the left side, but you'll find me in the green square, not the red one. I've got some beef with tankies and the total inability look inwards and say "hey maybe not everything Stalin did was good" is one of them.


I don't think it really matters whether everything Stalin did was good or bad or in between. He's been dead for 70 years; what he did is neither here nor there nor relevant. Defending Stalin isn't really about Stalin; it's about undermining 100 years of anti-socialist propaganda and fear-mongering.

Top
 Profile  
Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 604
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:15 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
I know Red Scare propaganda is deeply, deeply rooted in a lot of anti-communist rhetoric today, and I know that the American justice system is an absolute fucking joke. But let's not counter a statement like "gulags were bad" by just shifting the conversation to how bad America is instead. That's not even really what the thread is about anyway, in fairness.

I'm deep on the left side, but you'll find me in the green square, not the red one. I've got some beef with tankies and the total inability look inwards and say "hey maybe not everything Stalin did was good" is one of them.


I agree with you re: the thread - however, there was a complete meltdown for about a half-page there that warranted the response. Both sides had points that the other one was just completely ignoring. Gulags ARE bad. However, so is the American criminal justice system.

Very fine people, both sides. :lol:

No, but seriously, if people are going to attack the left over something Stalin did 100 years ago, it's fair to mention what the US was doing at the same time - OR what the Trump administration is doing right now (separating children from their parents). The red scare shit just gets old after seeing it over and over again. Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

I also have to say, back on topic, that this impeachment hearing has been absolutely painful. The dems are not going to get republicans to cross party lines on this and it's dreadful to think that we're just getting started with this news cycle. While I think we are mostly agreed that the White House did, in fact, break the law - I think that the continual forcing of amendment votes they know that they can't win is a pretty weak move by dems.

Can't help but think about how being in this hearing affects Sanders/Warren/Klobuchar campaigns while Biden is taking advantage of being on the trail...

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9466
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:13 am 
 

That Stalin is dead has nothing to do with people - you know who - calling for the same thing TODAY. Same people who are half a step away from holocaust denial. If you wanna tell me that camps at the US border are equivalent to Soviet concentration camps maybe you can provide some evidence for random executions and forced labour? Nothing will ever justify or excuse it, and people who try should really question their place in society.
_________________
Alpha Drone - Cobra Tattoo - Black metal song of the year
Lobotomizer - The world's worst motion comic

Top
 Profile  
henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3962
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:45 am 
 

North Korean prison camps are a modern equivalent to the soviet gulags. The camps at the US border - while completely morally bankrupt, are largely not comparable when you look at the severity of what's going on. This smoothening over of the USSR that pops up once in a while "because West bad as well" is very fucking weird to me.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:13 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
That Stalin is dead has nothing to do with people - you know who - calling for the same thing TODAY. Same people who are half a step away from holocaust denial. If you wanna tell me that camps at the US border are equivalent to Soviet concentration camps maybe you can provide some evidence for random executions and forced labour? Nothing will ever justify or excuse it, and people who try should really question their place in society.


Have you ever heard of the "chain gang?" Angola Farm? Convict rental? Have you read about the ways in which the US prison system was used to effectively re-enslave hundreds of thousands of Black men in the years and decades after the Civil War? Do you understand that this genocide by incarceration continues today? Did you know that of the adult black men in the United States today, about half (roughly 5 million) are either currently incarcerated or otherwise caught up in our "justice" system. How about the Indian Schools, are you familiar with those? What about America's long history of utilizing prison labor in for-profit enterprises, a system which remains in place right now? What do you call the hundreds of police slayings of unarmed Black and Brown folks that occur every year in the United States, what are those (because they sure look like "random executions" from here)?

No one is disputing that bad shit went down in the Soviet work-camp system 90 years ago. All I'm doing is pointing out that the crimes of Stalin are of a piece with the crimes of the United States government and its constituent state governments, rather than being unique to Stalin's Soviet Union.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:28 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
North Korean prison camps are a modern equivalent to the soviet gulags.


Do you have any evidence of that not laundered through US intelligence sources? The factual record of Western reporting on the DPRK is pretty fucking miserable. Remember when Kim Jong Un supposedly fed his girlfriend to dogs, only he didn't? Remember when dozens of high officials were allegedly purged and executed when Kim was supposedly consolidating his rule after the death of Kim Jong Il, only to pop back up in other capacities (and very much alive)? There are subjects on which the US and Western news media have a proven track record of unreliability, and the reporting done on the enemies of the US government is chief among those subjects. I'm not so young that I don't remember the New York Times—the Paper of Record, the Grey Lady herself—conspiring with the Bush II regime to cook the books on Iraq ahead of the 2003 invasion (which has subsequently led to the deaths of more Iraqis by far than Saddam was alleged to have offed in 25 years of rule). Western for-profit news reports simply aren't reliable on these subjects, because they invariably rely for their sourcing on anonymous US intelligence officials. It's a perfect circle of propaganda that leaves no way out for the truth.

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 9466
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:37 am 
 

Considering North Korea is pretty much the one thing the USA, Europe, Russia, China, Japan, India, Pakistan etc agree on, it's a pretty lost cause to call propaganda on that one. Everything else, be it Iran or Venezuela or Syria or whatever you have different nations with different opinions in the world and you'll hear a very different story from Russia than from the USA, but not North Korea.
_________________
Alpha Drone - Cobra Tattoo - Black metal song of the year
Lobotomizer - The world's worst motion comic

Top
 Profile  
darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4991
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:52 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
North Korean prison camps are a modern equivalent to the soviet gulags. The camps at the US border - while completely morally bankrupt, are largely not comparable when you look at the severity of what's going on. This smoothening over of the USSR that pops up once in a while "because West bad as well" is very fucking weird to me.

In a vacuum, sure. Compare their wealth and resources to the US's and rerun the math.
_________________
ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

Top
 Profile  
Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8117
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:59 am 
 

You can knock off the "concentration camps aren't always bad, because there are also bad prisons" pretense. It also doesn't need to be discussed who deserves, or doesn't deserve, to go to a gulag or a concentration camp, because whenever humanity acts as a judge of that, innocent people suffer and die. I'm not in the mood for any more warnings about this kind of horseshit.
_________________
"A glimpse of light is all that it takes to illuminate the darkness."

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:01 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Considering North Korea is pretty much the one thing the USA, Europe, Russia, China, Japan, India, Pakistan etc agree on, it's a pretty lost cause to call propaganda on that one.


That's weird, because I primarily read English-language PRC sources for info (largely because Chinese reporters actually, you know, go to North Korea to do their reporting), and these paint a very different picture vs. what comes out of the imperialist media. It's like you haven't actually read any non-Western reporting on the DPRK, but yet you feel confident that you know what it says. Why is that?

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 243
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:08 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
You can knock off the "concentration camps aren't always bad, because there are also bad prisons" pretense. It also doesn't need to be discussed who deserves, or doesn't deserve, to go to a gulag or a concentration camp, because whenever humanity acts as a judge of that, innocent people suffer and die. I'm not in the mood for any more warnings about this kind of horseshit.


No one has said that "concentration camps aren't bad." All I've done is point out that the US is not innocent of equivalent crimes. If you choose to understand that as anything but what's on the tin, I can't help you with that, as it is a failure of your reading comprehension, not my argument.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1 ... 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147 ... 152  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group