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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 1917
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:53 am 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
Spoiler: show
Quote:
We already know the congressional GOP always caves in to Trump and will support him unconditionally in the end. The apparent pushback against Trump on his tweet about postponing the election is only happening because some of them (like Lindsay Graham) are in tight races and need to pretend they are not rubber stamps for Trump to win the general election.

Here's how matters will likely unfold:

1. Trump continues to undermine confidence in the election over the next several weeks
2. He continues sending federal troops to multiple Democratic-led cities
3. Election Day comes, Graham/McConnell/Ernst/etc. are declared victors that evening
4. The presidential result is not determined that day, it is unclear how long before a winner is called
5. Trump uses that time to get the now-safe congressional GOPers and the lame ducks to pass a resolution in the Senate declaring the election invalid. The same resolution fails in the House along party lines.
6. Trump then proclaims he will not accept the result of the election if he loses, and the congressional GOP all back him and accuse the Democrats of attempting a coup. Trump then declares martial law and already has many occupying forces in place.
7. American democracy dies by year-end.
8. Trump orders an American version of the Night of the Long Knives


I would say that your friend's painted scenario is unlikely, but I'm at the point now where I look out at the sky every night waiting for a giant meteor to appear. I never predicted coronavirus to be as bad as it has been, and never thought such a dumbass would appeal to a large enough group of Americans to be rightfully elected, but here we are. Anything can happen.

matras wrote:
I may sound alarmist here, but I'm convinced people will die in the streets this election.


Yeah, this I think will happen no mater the outcome.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:01 am 
 

Meanwhile, Joe fucking Biden crawled out from his COVID bunker for the first time in a month to demand that protesters be arrested. It's all fascism. It always has been.
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Curious_dead
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:15 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Meanwhile, Joe fucking Biden crawled out from his COVID bunker for the first time in a month to demand that protesters be arrested. It's all fascism. It always has been.


I mean, his comments might not be what you want to hear but they are much more nuanced than that.

...

The whole "delay the election" thing happened at a weirdly coincidental time... he said it just as the US hit 150K deaths from COVID and registered the worst economic downturn in history by a wide margin. It's just deflection. He knows he can't do it. Or maybe he doesn't but it doesn't matter. In any case, if no president is elected by the time of inauguration, House speaker becomes president. So unless the GOP wants president Pelosi or are planning an actual coup d'État, there is no meat here. What's more worrying is the attempt to delegitimize the election. He's setting the stage for a really belligerent opposition, probably just out of spite.

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:56 am 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Meanwhile, Joe fucking Biden crawled out from his COVID bunker for the first time in a month to demand that protesters be arrested. It's all fascism. It always has been.


I mean, his comments might not be what you want to hear but they are much more nuanced than that.


His comments give the appearance of nuance while lacking its substance. He invents an imaginary distinction between "protesters" (millions of whom have flooded the streets of this country for the last two months) and "violent protesters" (who do not exist). It is "nuance" without meaning, and stripped of the bullshit, it is a demand to mobilize state repression to silence dissent.
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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:05 pm 
 

I think Biden's comments are less sinister but equally harmful. A lot of online lefties are worried that he just declared being an anarchist illegal in itself and opening the door for political dissent to be criminalized, but honestly I don't think he knows or cares what people who read Kropotkin or Bakunin are. It's an appeal to scared boomers who equate "anarchism" with "chaos" and that's really it. It's less "This political philosophy is now officially thoughtcrime" and more "These kids need to shut the fuck up already".

There are a million reasons why this is bad but I genuinely don't think this soup-brained old man is making the play that more informed people worry that he is.
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Prigione Eterna
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
Posts: 29
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:41 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Curious_dead wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Meanwhile, Joe fucking Biden crawled out from his COVID bunker for the first time in a month to demand that protesters be arrested. It's all fascism. It always has been.


I mean, his comments might not be what you want to hear but they are much more nuanced than that.


His comments give the appearance of nuance while lacking its substance. He invents an imaginary distinction between "protesters" (millions of whom have flooded the streets of this country for the last two months) and "violent protesters" (who do not exist). It is "nuance" without meaning, and stripped of the bullshit, it is a demand to mobilize state repression to silence dissent.


I'm watching all this unfold from Europe, in the middle of yet another heat wave, which has become a yearly occurrence even near the Alps, where I live.
I hear where you are coming from, but I urge you and people like you to consider that if the Republicans win again there may not be fascism or no fascism at all, because we risk the destruction of "the prospects for organized human life" (quoting Noam Chomsky).
Please, be kind to those who can only watch from afar and go out and vote for Biden; whatever you think of him, he's not consciously trying to destroy the world, Trump and the Republicans are.
There will be things to fix afterwards, but at least we will have some chances.
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MutantClannfear
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:44 pm 
 

Yeah, let's unplug from the internet for a moment and remember that 99% of people are not hyper-politicizing reality like we terminally online internet nerds are. Not everything is meant to be some sort of abstruse dogwhistle that attacks leftism on some fundamental level. Very few people care about these sorts of things as much as we do.

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henkkjelle
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:11 pm 
 

Biden's stance is a typical mainstream stance on protests and Sedition made it sound a lot worse by removing the word "violent". Meanwhile people are being taken away by federal agents in unmarked cars. Great priorities there Sedition.

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Prigione Eterna
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Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:38 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Biden's stance is a typical mainstream stance on protests and Sedition made it sound a lot worse by removing the word "violent". Meanwhile people are being taken away by federal agents in unmarked cars. Great priorities there Sedition.


There should be even greater priorities.
Federal agents cracking down on protests is a grave, but recent development.
What's not recent and potentially terminal for humans is the relentless effort by the Trump administration to undermine the entire world's ability, not only the US', to respond to the climate crisis, the health crisis, the threat of a nuclear war and the global shift towards authoritarian rule.
Obama or Biden weren't and aren't saints, but at least they didn't try and won't try to make things worse.

I guess my point is that the coming US elections won't only be crucial for Americans, but for everybody.
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acid_bukkake
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:08 pm 
 

Prigione Eterna wrote:
there should be even greater priorities.
Federal agents cracking down on protests is a grave, but recent development.

Uhhh...no. No it is not. It happened during the labor strikes in the late 19th/early 20th century, it happened during Women's Suffrage, it happened during the Civil Rights movement, it happened at Vietnam protests, it happened in Seattle in 1999, Standing Rock...

It may be a recent development in these protests, but not as a whole. It's practically a guarantee. Biden supporting it just means he's alienating even more of what should be the Dem base.
Quote:
I guess my point is that the coming US elections won't only be crucial for Americans, but for everybody.

They all are and have been since we developed atomic bombs.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:38 pm 
 

Well in this case it's important because Trump's 2016 success lead to successes for a bunch of authoritarian whackjob clones around the world, and his failure would help put those back from whatever holes they crawled out of. At least I imagine Trump crashing and burning will be seen as a great sign in all countries with similar idiots in some position of power.

Not that it's a universally great prospect, because while Trump will likely fail in not recognising an election defeat I'm not sure a Bolsonaro election defeat in Brazil wouldn't lead exactly to that kind of disaster. Still Trump crashing and burning and leading to a ripple effect for authoritarian whackjobs around the world is something where positives far outweigh potential negatives.
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Prigione Eterna
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:20 pm 
 

acid_bukkake wrote:
Uhhh...no. No it is not. It happened during the labor strikes in the late 19th/early 20th century, it happened during Women's Suffrage, it happened during the Civil Rights movement, it happened at Vietnam protests, it happened in Seattle in 1999, Standing Rock...

It may be a recent development in these protests, but not as a whole. It's practically a guarantee. Biden supporting it just means he's alienating even more of what should be the Dem base.


I meant a recent development during this administration, of course it always happens.

That's beside my point, anyway.
Even if you don't like Biden, he's less dangerous and more rational than Trump, on any ground you can think of.
Plenty of examples.
Take the Paris Agreement: not much, but it was something to build on. Nothing remotely like it would happen with another Trump presidency; he and his party are completely beholden to the fossil fuel industries.
Healthcare, same thing: I don't want to go much into internal politics because I'm not from the US, but Obama at least did something to expand the coverage and, more importantly, he didn't cut funds for the WHO, the CDC, the EPA or basically all the important institutions that could have done something about this and future pandemics and environmental issues, which are very connected to health for various reasons.

Quote:
They all are and have been since we developed atomic bombs.


Except the threat has never been so close.
There isn't much time to deal with the climate crisis: by now anyone who wants to know about it, knows about it. Universal agreement among scientists.
Also, it's this administration that's tearing up all non-proliferation treaties. Not Obama, not Biden.

If the Republicans win again, it will be much harder to deal with all those problems.

droneriot wrote:
Well in this case it's important because Trump's 2016 success lead to successes for a bunch of authoritarian whackjob clones around the world, and his failure would help put those back from whatever holes they crawled out of. At least I imagine Trump crashing and burning will be seen as a great sign in all countries with similar idiots in some position of power.

Not that it's a universally great prospect, because while Trump will likely fail in not recognising an election defeat I'm not sure a Bolsonaro election defeat in Brazil wouldn't lead exactly to that kind of disaster. Still Trump crashing and burning and leading to a ripple effect for authoritarian whackjobs around the world is something where positives far outweigh potential negatives.


Yes, that's another reason; I didn't mention it because I think using such a logic takes a political sensibility I'm not sure the average voter possesses. I don't think many people go to vote taking into account the global scenario.
But I too am convinced it would deal a serious blow to the far-right international.
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Curious_dead
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:32 pm 
 

acid_bukkake wrote:
Prigione Eterna wrote:
there should be even greater priorities.
Federal agents cracking down on protests is a grave, but recent development.

Uhhh...no. No it is not. It happened during the labor strikes in the late 19th/early 20th century, it happened during Women's Suffrage, it happened during the Civil Rights movement, it happened at Vietnam protests, it happened in Seattle in 1999, Standing Rock...

It may be a recent development in these protests, but not as a whole. It's practically a guarantee. Biden supporting it just means he's alienating even more of what should be the Dem base.
Quote:
I guess my point is that the coming US elections won't only be crucial for Americans, but for everybody.

They all are and have been since we developed atomic bombs.


I never feared a US president before, nukes or not. I wasn't under the impression that Obama, Clinton or even any of the Bushes, nor any of the presumptive presidential candidate would use it on a whim. I never feared that they would lead the US into fascism. I don't trust Trump with nukes, I don't trust him regarding fascism.

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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:00 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
I think Biden's comments are less sinister but equally harmful. A lot of online lefties are worried that he just declared being an anarchist illegal in itself and opening the door for political dissent to be criminalized, but honestly I don't think he knows or cares what people who read Kropotkin or Bakunin are. It's an appeal to scared boomers who equate "anarchism" with "chaos" and that's really it. It's less "This political philosophy is now officially thoughtcrime" and more "These kids need to shut the fuck up already".

There are a million reasons why this is bad but I genuinely don't think this soup-brained old man is making the play that more informed people worry that he is.


Please note that I haven't said one word about anarchists, Kropotkin, Bakunin, Proudhon, or A. Cab, President of Antifa. I don't think this is something targeted at anarchists or even leftists as such; I seriously doubt Joey Dementia even knows the difference between an anarchist, a communist, and a Bernieite Dem. I am responding only to the context and content of Biden's comments.

The context is that, having had essentially no engagement at all with the protest movement that has sprung up in the wake of the latest series of racist police murders, having, indeed, made no public statements whatsoever for nearly a month, he pops up from whatever rock his staff has had him stashed under just to urge that protesters be arrested. This at a time when his ostensible political foe has been using outsourced goons as a private Gestapo to snatch activists from the streets.

The content is a deliberate misrepresentation of the nature of the protests, suggesting they have a violent element (when they manifestly do not) that needs to be repressed by police (when unaccountable police repression is the very reason the protests are happening in the first place). This is a lie. It is a lie designed to instill fear in the general public, and a lie intended to justify state suppression of dissent. The lie is of a fascist character, and it is intended to encourage and provide political cover for a fascist response. It is the response of a fascist.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:40 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Meanwhile, Joe fucking Biden crawled out from his COVID bunker for the first time in a month to demand that protesters be arrested. It's all fascism. It always has been.

The Biden campaign settled on wooing upper-middle-class white suburbanites months ago, so this statement isn't a revelation, it's a clarification.

The demographics of South Carolina--and how that was ultimately spun by the DNC and the media--shows you all you need to know about whose bread Biden is buttering.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:45 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Meanwhile, Joe fucking Biden crawled out from his COVID bunker for the first time in a month to demand that protesters be arrested. It's all fascism. It always has been.

The Biden campaign settled on wooing upper-middle-class white suburbanites months ago, so this statement isn't a revelation, it's a clarification.

The demographics of South Carolina--and how that was ultimately spun by the DNC and the media--shows you all you need to know about whose bread Biden is buttering.


For sure there's no revelation in the discovery that both bourgeois political parties are totally cool with fascism, it's just good to remind people of that fact from time to time. Useful that Joe would just come out and say it, though.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:23 am 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
I never feared a US president before, nukes or not. I wasn't under the impression that Obama, Clinton or even any of the Bushes, nor any of the presumptive presidential candidate would use it on a whim. I never feared that they would lead the US into fascism. I don't trust Trump with nukes, I don't trust him regarding fascism.


Bill Clinton ordered the destruction of a pharmaceutical plant to distract attention from a sex scandal. His DoJ burned children alive with tanks. Obama used robots to execute American citizens (some of whom were minor children) without trial. Dubya's administration lied the country into a war that has gone on for two decades and killed literally millions of people. HW literally ran the CIA as his previous job. If you trusted any of these motherfuckers, I don't know what to say.
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Prigione Eterna
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Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:33 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Meanwhile, Joe fucking Biden crawled out from his COVID bunker for the first time in a month to demand that protesters be arrested. It's all fascism. It always has been.

The Biden campaign settled on wooing upper-middle-class white suburbanites months ago, so this statement isn't a revelation, it's a clarification.

The demographics of South Carolina--and how that was ultimately spun by the DNC and the media--shows you all you need to know about whose bread Biden is buttering.


For sure there's no revelation in the discovery that both bourgeois political parties are totally cool with fascism, it's just good to remind people of that fact from time to time. Useful that Joe would just come out and say it, though.


It's also good, especially with an election coming up, to remind people that while one of the "bourgeois political parties" is committed to the destruction of life on Earth, unapologetically, the other one is not, no matter how bad you think it is.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am 
 

Prigione Eterna wrote:
It's also good, especially with an election coming up, to remind people that while one of the "bourgeois political parties" is committed to the destruction of life on Earth, unapologetically, the other one is not, no matter how bad you think it is.


Both parties are utterly dedicated to the preservation of the capitalist system of production. The result is the same; whether the path is "open" or not is immaterial.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:07 pm 
 

Even if you believe both parties will help lead us to destruction all the same, one is going to do it a bit slower and actually has plans to make things a bit better. But I know ideology is more important than results..

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Prigione Eterna
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:25 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Prigione Eterna wrote:
It's also good, especially with an election coming up, to remind people that while one of the "bourgeois political parties" is committed to the destruction of life on Earth, unapologetically, the other one is not, no matter how bad you think it is.


Both parties are utterly dedicated to the preservation of the capitalist system of production. The result is the same; whether the path is "open" or not is immaterial.


Do you think helping Trump getting re-elected would make dismantling capitalism easier?
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Avocat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:10 pm 
 

Joe Biden is shit, but getting him elected at least buys the country more time for more progressive people to age into politics. Younger people are increasingly getting more progressive. With Biden we can slow down the bad developments while a second Trump term could very well cause irreparable damage.

If this were any other election I'd say go ahead and don't vote, but Trump is so drastically bad that not voting for Biden is just a vote for Trump.

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Curious_dead
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:08 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Curious_dead wrote:
I never feared a US president before, nukes or not. I wasn't under the impression that Obama, Clinton or even any of the Bushes, nor any of the presumptive presidential candidate would use it on a whim. I never feared that they would lead the US into fascism. I don't trust Trump with nukes, I don't trust him regarding fascism.


Bill Clinton ordered the destruction of a pharmaceutical plant to distract attention from a sex scandal. His DoJ burned children alive with tanks. Obama used robots to execute American citizens (some of whom were minor children) without trial. Dubya's administration lied the country into a war that has gone on for two decades and killed literally millions of people. HW literally ran the CIA as his previous job. If you trusted any of these motherfuckers, I don't know what to say.


If you don't see the difference between any of these policies (that, for worse, have been going on for decades) and/or people and the thin-skinned, impulsive, demented fascist who's actively undermining democracy, enabling corruption, has no knowledge of geopolitics and who is surrounded by yes-men and chickenhawks, who alienated allies and cozied up with fascists while at the same time picking useless fights with various belligerent nations for shit, I don't know what to fucking tell you. Like, aren't you even capable of seeing that just because each of these men have done terrible things that they are not necessarily on the same level? Jesus Christ, no I never felt threatened by any of these men, even at their most horrible, but whenever Trump dips his orange toe in the international geopolitics pool, I'm never sure just how big is the gaffe he's inevitably going to make.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:40 pm 
 

Funny how human lives math comes easy when it's China vs USA but when it's Democrats vs Republicans it's "all killing is bad!!" Good to have such a clear, well-defined moral code.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:46 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Even if you believe both parties will help lead us to destruction all the same, one is going to do it a bit slower and actually has plans to make things a bit better. But I know ideology is more important than results..


The Democrats have taken precisely zero meaningful steps to stem climate change when they've held power. Lip service ain't buying us any time.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:50 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Curious_dead wrote:
I never feared a US president before, nukes or not. I wasn't under the impression that Obama, Clinton or even any of the Bushes, nor any of the presumptive presidential candidate would use it on a whim. I never feared that they would lead the US into fascism. I don't trust Trump with nukes, I don't trust him regarding fascism.


Bill Clinton ordered the destruction of a pharmaceutical plant to distract attention from a sex scandal. His DoJ burned children alive with tanks. Obama used robots to execute American citizens (some of whom were minor children) without trial. Dubya's administration lied the country into a war that has gone on for two decades and killed literally millions of people. HW literally ran the CIA as his previous job. If you trusted any of these motherfuckers, I don't know what to say.


If you don't see the difference between any of these policies (that, for worse, have been going on for decades) and/or people and the thin-skinned, impulsive, demented fascist who's actively undermining democracy, enabling corruption, has no knowledge of geopolitics and who is surrounded by yes-men and chickenhawks, who alienated allies and cozied up with fascists while at the same time picking useless fights with various belligerent nations for shit, I don't know what to fucking tell you. Like, aren't you even capable of seeing that just because each of these men have done terrible things that they are not necessarily on the same level? Jesus Christ, no I never felt threatened by any of these men, even at their most horrible, but whenever Trump dips his orange toe in the international geopolitics pool, I'm never sure just how big is the gaffe he's inevitably going to make.


The policies of the Trump administration and the policies of its recent predecessors are remarkably similar. You're responding to the rhetorical packaging of those policies more than the policies themselves. Trump isn't doing anything drastically different; he just talks about it more crassly.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:55 pm 
 

Avocat wrote:
Joe Biden is shit, but getting him elected at least buys the country more time for more progressive people to age into politics. Younger people are increasingly getting more progressive. With Biden we can slow down the bad developments while a second Trump term could very well cause irreparable damage.

If this were any other election I'd say go ahead and don't vote, but Trump is so drastically bad that not voting for Biden is just a vote for Trump.


A vote for Biden is also a vote for Trump, or, at least, a vote for essentially identical policies. A Biden Presidency won't reduce harm, it will just invisibilize harm.
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Prigione Eterna
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:56 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
A vote for Biden is also a vote for Trump, or, at least, a vote for essentially identical policies. A Biden Presidency won't reduce harm, it will just invisibilize harm.


That's not true.
The Republicans are getting rid of all non-proliferation treaties and environmental laws, got out of the Paris Agreement. They are against all forms of publicly subsidized healthcare. They cut funds to the WHO and the CDC, disbanded scientific programs that could have prevented this and future pandemics, increased subsidies to fossil fuels industries. They've dropped more bombs than any other administration, bullied countries into paying more for having American troops stationed in them, increased sanctions against other countries. They support the far-right all over the world. Instead of talking with the protesters and negotiating even mild reforms, they've cracked down on them and tried to provoke a military confrontation. They've promoted anti-scientific theories and Trump has even given accolades to Rush Limbaugh and the likes.
I could go on.
These are things that are easily verifiable. The last Democratic administration wasn't centuries ago and Biden was part of it. It doesn't take a lot of effort to remember. All of their policies went in the opposite direction to those I've mentioned above. Maybe not enough to satisfy everybody's desires, but they did.

Also, can we put ourselves in the shoes of someone in Africa or Yemen that used to rely on WHO for humanitarian aid? Would you say to them that restoring it will only "invisibilize" their suffering?

I'm not saying that the solution is merely pushing a button instead of another, but that's a first step. A path is made by laying one stone at a time.
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Last edited by Prigione Eterna on Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Avocat
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:25 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:58 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Avocat wrote:
Joe Biden is shit, but getting him elected at least buys the country more time for more progressive people to age into politics. Younger people are increasingly getting more progressive. With Biden we can slow down the bad developments while a second Trump term could very well cause irreparable damage.

If this were any other election I'd say go ahead and don't vote, but Trump is so drastically bad that not voting for Biden is just a vote for Trump.


A vote for Biden is also a vote for Trump, or, at least, a vote for essentially identical policies. A Biden Presidency won't reduce harm, it will just invisibilize harm.


If you think Biden and Trump are equally harmful I don't know what to tell you. Harm reduction is a viable option at this point.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:18 pm 
 

Man I hope you never get into a discussion with Acrobat, that's gonna confuse the fuck out of me.
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:37 pm 
 

Have we forgotten so quickly about the Joe Biden/Tara Reade sexual assault thing?
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Eradicatedseraphim
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Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 5:42 am
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:41 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Man I hope you never get into a discussion with Acrobat, that's gonna confuse the fuck out of me.


He's supported the Iraq war, supported bailing out criminals like the Lehman brothers and Goldman Sachs, deported thousands in Obama's administration, supported the 94 crime bill that incarcerated thousands of POC. To act like he's anything less than a massive setback to progressive policies and or act as if he'll magically support them when he didn't under Obama's reign is incredibly naive. There is no harm reduction if he's elected he's marginally better on issues like climate change but sets back the Left even more. Even worse he may further push radicalized people to elect someone like Trump to another potential election in the late 2020's
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:43 pm 
 

Damn and I always thought Acrobat was a nice guy.
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Curious_dead
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:49 pm 
 

Holy fucking shit. Have people been aware Trump was president for four years? He's directly led to the deaths of 150K Americans (and counting), caging children, the Republicanization of judges on all levels, the weakening of institutions, the weakening of democracies, the worst GDP loss in history by a wide margin, high unemployment, and the destruction of natural resources, the weakening of just about every environmental protection possible. At this point, a chimp not doing anything for four years would be a massive setback.

If you guys really think Biden is only marginally better...

Well, let's say I've argued with smarter MAGAts.

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droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:53 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Holy fucking shit. Have people been aware Trump was president for four years? He's directly led to the deaths of 150K Americans (and counting), caging children, the Republicanization of judges on all levels, the weakening of institutions, the weakening of democracies, the worst GDP loss in history by a wide margin, high unemployment, and the destruction of natural resources, the weakening of just about every environmental protection possible. At this point, a chimp not doing anything for four years would be a massive setback.

Not to mention the "Middle East Peace Plan" will turn out to be the Wannsee Conference/Final Solution 2.0 when put into motion. Denies an entire people the right to exist.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:21 am 
 

Uh, don't count on Biden balking at even the most insane plan when it comes to anything to do with Israel. There's a reason Barack "maybe Palestinians are actually human beings" Obama picked Biden when he was worried about the Isreal lobby abandoning him.

All that said, if you're on the left and there's even a possibility you're in a swing district, vote for Biden. Bernie got blown out not because people preferred Biden, but because they were terrified of Trump. Trump gets reelected, you can expect Mitt Romney running as the Democratic nominee in 2024.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:43 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Damn and I always thought Acrobat was a nice guy.

:lol: I'm gonna have to have a word with him.
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Liquid_Braino
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Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:25 am
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:16 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Have we forgotten so quickly about the Joe Biden/Tara Reade sexual assault thing?

I'm sure a lot of republican strategists aren't making it a focal point since it will result in inevitable comparisons to their candidate and draw attention to his own laundry list of similar offenses.

While it may cause some progressive democratic voters to stay home, it can backfire and cause numerous evangelists to stay home as well with all this deviant salacious behavior being flung everywhere. The idea that all evangelists will get out and vote republican no matter how deviant the guy is doesn't completely hold when considering that Moore lost in Alabama despite his democratic opponent being a "baby killer".

If Biden wins, then next year republicans will dog him on Tara as they attempt to revert themselves back into being the moral crusaders of 'family values' party.

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Prigione Eterna
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:43 pm
Posts: 29
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:38 am 
 

Eradicatedseraphim wrote:
He's supported the Iraq war, supported bailing out criminals like the Lehman brothers and Goldman Sachs, deported thousands in Obama's administration, supported the 94 crime bill that incarcerated thousands of POC. To act like he's anything less than a massive setback to progressive policies and or act as if he'll magically support them when he didn't under Obama's reign is incredibly naive. There is no harm reduction if he's elected he's marginally better on issues like climate change but sets back the Left even more.


Marginally better on climate change? The Republicans deny it. That's as bad as it gets about climate policy.
I'd say that with science saying there is little more than a decade or two to fix it, not denying the problem would be quite an improvement.

Eradicatedseraphim wrote:
Even worse he may further push radicalized people to elect someone like Trump to another potential election in the late 2020's


I think this is a masterpiece of political strategy: we should keep Trump in power now because otherwise someone like Trump can come around later down the road.
Let's make him emperor for life, so people in the end will really understand that a true progressive president is better.

darkeningday wrote:
All that said, if you're on the left and there's even a possibility you're in a swing district, vote for Biden. Bernie got blown out not because people preferred Biden, but because they were terrified of Trump. Trump gets reelected, you can expect Mitt Romney running as the Democratic nominee in 2024.


That's always been the case in history.
If I may relate my own experience about it; in Italy, the lack of support by the far left to a center-left government in the 90s and early 2000s was crucial to keep Berlusconi in power for years.
I'm not saying Berlusconi was as bad as Trump, but his policies were very destructive and especially his relentless attack to progressive values and culture. After years of this, the cultural hegemony of the right has become undisputed and the far left has almost disappeared from the spectrum.

Also, maybe it's farfetched, but I think this time even the popular vote will count.
The Republicans are already trying to delegitimize the results: losing the popular vote by as big a margin as possible would make their attempt harder.
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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 954
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:04 am 
 

Even I, as a hardcore green anarchist, can see that there's degrees of "bad", and there's not even a shadow of an honest debate about which one of the two butter-brained sexual predators would be preferable. Realizing Biden is bad is not a reason to prefer the orange fleshbag.
You have to be wary of accelerationists among lefties as well.

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