People have such a persecution complex about these things. Like if you don't compromise and go make friends with the Trump people then you have to be some crazy "radical" who sees everyone else as subhuman. Not everything that isn't down-the-middle moderation is some attack on anybody else.

Yes, because Joe Bide and Barack Obama were some beacon of hope at the Mexican border? There's an expectation for legal immigrants to assimilate into the country they are coming to. I'm pretty sure you don't move from Uganda to the United States in hopes to make the US more like Uganda. I cannot just move to Ireland on a whim. If I overstay a visa, or come over illegally I would be dealt with.



I see how you got that nickname. Maybe we've both spent too much time on here. I don't find much commonality with my 17 year old self, so posting on the same forum might be reaching for nostalgia.

You can feel the #Unity resonating through all of us.

Edit: Sticking to the notion that all Trump supporters are X, Y and Z is going to hurt the Democratic party going forward. You'll see in 2022.

Assimilation is an organic process that isn't forced. I don't know how many first or second generation Americans you personally know, but you can tell that, by the second generation, the family is pretty assimilated. That doesn't happen because we shove "merica!" down people's throat. It happens because they go to American schools and make american friends and build their self actualization in america.

As for Obama and Biden on immigration they weren't great, but holy shit they were a million times better. I don't know what to say- when you're the president, your words mean something. It's not just about what you do. It's also about how you characterize certain situations or talk about people.

But just on a policy-focused point, I implore you to check out this video.

I thought VICE was created by a Proud Boy and we can't support or trust them? We all know there's high turnover in the Trump administration.



There's a reason the founding principles of this country are part of the Naturalization Test. For someone to properly assimilate into a country there has to be a general understanding of what is expected from the government and from its citizens.

Yes, I know a lot of second generation immigrants in my age group. You cannot lump them all together. Immigrants all come here for varying reasons, so there's no real monolith to speak of. I can't compare an eastern block immigrant to an Indian immigrant. Their motivations are completely different.

I support all forms of legal immigration and travel, and love that we live in the most diverse country in the world.

I'll add some anecdotal examples, to illustrate the different perspectives I've interacted with on a personal level.

One of my ex's father was a first generation Indian immigrant. His only goal was to build his dental practice, sell it and move back. He did not allow anything "American" in the home, and you were not allowed to speak English.

Another ex was second generation Pakistani. She was yanked from university after he found out she was "dating an American." I got a few emails from her after but those stopped too.

My Puerto Rican ex was all about USA, USA, USA!

I have a good friend who's a second generation Polish immigrant and she feels like she owes America the life she lives. I know quite a few Italian immigrants and they generally share the same view.

Interesting anecdotes, but I'm a bit unsure on what the broader implication is regarding them .

Lol Gavin McInnes didn't create Vice News Shane Smith did, but yeah interesting how that all worked out. The focus of the video isn't the high turnover in his administration, it's the immigration policy that his administration enacted that has had disastrous consequences on both a legal and human level. Watch-the-video.

Naturalization tests are dumb and ineffective in 'naturalizing' anyone. If you want evidence, ask ten random fourth+ generation Americans from jackoff county in rando state some questions on a naturalization test and I guarantee you they'd fail. Fuck, when I worked at a pizza joint back in '11 only two people there knew that Joe Biden was VP. In fact, knowing civics almost seems contradictory to the American experience these days, seeing how many people can't even name the three branches of government

Real naturalization is about having a view of the world and yourself that's similar to the country you were raised in and people you were surrounded by. Even that can be overgeneralizing because, depending on where you are, that experience varies.

The broader implication is we should stop othering, but then I just sound like a both sides wanker.

Ironically, the list of people I know personally who support Trump is more diverse than my contacts who support Biden. The Hispanics and Indians I know love Trump. I even know a few gay guys all about Trump.

I agree about the county folk. I still remember AP Government. God bless my public schools.

You're right, I honestly do need a check against the wall like you gave me.

What do you think of it all now?

I'm really not trying to be a douche, I'd like to see your viewpoint.

What the president says matters because of who is listening. Obama, by all metric, wasn't my flavor of politics either as I'm probably two steps to the left of Karl Marx. But Obama (and now, Joe Biden) at least spoke like a leader and a human being who had some sense of compassion and empathy for other people and didn't overtly stoke the fires of division and violence with his rhetoric.

Trump's words, who he emboldens with what he's saying, that shit's important. Trump couldn't even be bothered to denounce the Proud Boys with no room for misinterpretation. This is a group by the way, that has now removed their POC "chairman" and have gone full white supremacist which, come on, we all knew that's what they were in the first place but they were trying to brand themselves differently to lure in impressionable, disillusioned young men. These are the kind of people that Donald Trump gave carte blanche to.

I don't have any problems treating a white supremacist as sub-human filth because, well, they are. They're the lowest form of life. Unity and division can gargle my beansack as long as we have a legitimate white supremacist danger in this country and our conservative party continues to do very little to denounce them. They do more to court them than they do to denounce them, and they've been doing that with dog whistles for as long as I can remember. At least since Gingrich was Speaker, but the whistles have gotten louder and louder over the years. Trump was a bullhorn.

You don't deal with these types with unity and division. It's not possible. When it comes to fascists or fashy-flirty types, you've got to hold your ground and push back. In some cases, you simply have to do it to 'em and kick some ass. Fascism is rarely, if ever, defeated at the ballot box.

We have to stop telling people to try and build a bridge and find commonality with their oppressors and those that would seek to harm them. My grandfather whipped Nazi ass back in WW2 and he is likely rolling over in his grave right now at people trying to reach across the aisle to these people. As more and more of the people who witnessed WW2 and the horrors that fascism truly wrought pass away, we're going to have fewer and fewer people to sound the alarm that have credibility. And then, then we're in some serious trouble. We got super lucky this time because Trump couldn't manage a gas station, much less the presidency. Next time, though? Next time I'm afraid for.

You're looking it into something I haven't said. In every single society there's a group of people that don't care about politics by any means, and there are others that care, but don't trust in the political system so they "boycott" it by not participating into it.

What I described is a well documented process that has happened hundreds of times in the rest of the world and it's not immediate, it's a very gradual process of dissatisfaction. I think US, for their first time in its history it's starting to question its bureaucracy and the legitimacy of its institutions (Police, the entire political system, economics, etc) and its starting to see the rot in its own country. Societies are complex, because individuals are both generic and unique in their behavior. You have people that will stop participating into elections and others that will get into it to change what's currently wrong. Now, at some point, people will protest and ask for things they haven't before, because either they didn't see it, because the political clime shows some chances to make changes and people will try to seize the opportunity OR something happened that made people realize their real scarcity/shortfall in their current life conditions that will make them question what they have and what they should, measuring their contributions to the country v/s what you get in return.

Remember what happened last year before and after the Joker's movie screening? That's a sign of change and its replicating everywhere.



That's absolutely false, unless the government acts only to underwhelm the population's life standards. Do you think US has the resources to provide better healthcare, education, wages, employment creation and so many other things? I believe US can, but they choose not to do it because they think everything is fine enough.

For example, for such a military cultured country as US, why veterans don't have a better life standard and are treated basically like trash? It's totally against the entire propaganda US delivers in education, politics and even entertainment. It's one of the most anti patriotic things to ever be done, to abandon their "heroes" in such almost in-humanitarian ways, but the government does it and it doesn't give a shit about it. So, soldiers are only heroes and propel the country while they are active, once they stop putting their lives on the line, they are discarded like crap. Shameful.

I also find funny the anti immigration stance that seems to be so present in America, when every single US citizen is an immigrant descendant. Since US massacred its native population, all what was left was the "invaders" group. Even Trump is, right? How many politicians are just 2nd or 3rd generation of a longstanding tradition of immigration in the US? Too much hypocrisy?

People is starting to question these things and eventually will ask for action.

But this isn't Ireland. This argument kinda goes out the window once you acknowledge that we (European settlers) came to this continent and forced the people already living here to assimilate into European culture, rather than the other way around. I don't feel like I have any right to demand that anyone else living here should conform to my own language or culture.

Please don't mention that. Obama just like his predecessor, GWB, is a war criminal. He threw in flames Syria, Libya and Yemen. Countless of human lives lost because of the hypocrite criminal. He was a wolf in sheep clothes. If you'd take DEEDS into account, Bush & Obama had 5 NEW wars between them, Trump has ZERO.

Trump massively ramped up the drone war in the ME committing more drone atrocities in four years than both Bush and both Obama terms COMBINED, did 2 Benghazis in his FIRST FUCKING YEAR (Tonga Tonga and Yakla raid, look them up), assassinated the top Iranian general for no fucking reason, sold millions upon millions of dollars in arms to our "friends" in Saudi Arabia to help them fuel their genocide in Yemen and, most importantly, ended the transparency the Obama administration put in place on operations in foreign nations so people like you can pretend he's a dove.

It's sheer dumb luck Trump didn't start nuclear Armageddon.

Bruh. You were banned in August for something completely unrelated to the election. Stop grandstanding about it, and move on.

No matter how much this "Bastardhead" guy hates everything you say, I genuinely enjoy reading your posts on here and agree with almost everything you have to say.

Watching people get mad in the same way as people on the other side is so blindly obvious, yet not a lot of people seem to be able to take a look at themselves in here.

Banned because I shared a pro-police sentiment, which is tied to politics in 2020. Not exactly unrelated. Plus, the "explanation" even said "until the election." Whoever banned me, tied it to politics.

You can't be openly Conservative here, but you can openly support Chinese atrocities on Muslims etc? Weird.

Encouraging signs from the new guy's COVID planning - all of this is common sense stuff that has been done the world over, it's very telling on the nature of Donald's fuck up with COVID that this is seen as revolutionary for the US

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/14/joe-biden-coronavirus-covid-advisers-trump

Please go on then about how you think the police should be allowed to operate as death squads.

Please go out and try to grab an officers gun or punch one. I'll wait for you to report back about what happens.

I've been in handcuffs multiple times, had 10+ guns pointed at me and I've been pulled over a dozen plus times. I always show respect and follow orders. It's not rocket science.

That's a non-sequitur. Focus on the issue I explained if you're capable of doing so. Explain how it's okay for police to go up to a black person and straight up shoot them just because they thought they were causing a disturbance.

What are you going on about? Which one of these cases has a police just walk up and murder someone? I always watch the footage from these events. None of them have happened that way. If you can show me an instance of a police officer just casually shooting someone, I'll comment on that instance. I won't acknowledge blanket statements like "do you support innocent people being murdered?" Of course not.

I was with an African-American friend during one of those handcuff moments, and with two Bangladeshi brothers for the second time. Somehow, we all remained calm, followed instructions and went home. ACAB though!

Link to your remark back in August regarding Jacob Blake that saw you canned: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=127934&p=2926308#p2926308

Cry on about "blanket statements", but if you're going to respond about stuff like that like "lol why do you link CNN?" and accept blatantly invented rhetoric from the police union to stop themselves from looking bad, I'm going to assume you're wearing a pair of clown shoes.

If the standard is "the cops have to literally just shoot someone point blank without any events beforehand" for you to think they're wrong then it's clear you'll never see the perspective of the other side and that debating is pointless.

That was a cop out answer. The death of someone like Breonna Taylor is a tragedy, and policies should be changed to prevent things like that in the future. There's a reason neither her boyfriend nor the police officers were charged with murder or attempted murder.

However, to act like every single instance of someone dying from police interaction is automatically "racist" removes any chance for a debate, because you ignore the circumstances of the incident.

Saying "every single" is a cop out too and puts words in my mouth. I'm sure you could find some of them that were just the cops doing whatever they could at the moment.

I think Jacob Blake, Tamir Rice, George Floyd, Michael Brown, et. al - there's so many it's hard to even list them all - were all clear instances of police abuse and violence that were reprehensible. I'm sure there was some level of racism in the way the cops thought and acted; it's impossible to read minds but prejudice runs deep. And I've listened to plenty of black people I know talk about systemic racism and the cops. What these murder victims might have done beforehand or their criminal histories or any other variables are less important to me than an officer of the law, who is legally allowed to carry a gun, murdering them.

I think the cops have too much power and abuse it often, and I think the country has a long and deep seated history of racism that hasn't gone away even now.

Michael Brown literally tried to steal the officer's gun. It's on video. No one; black or white, is going to get far with that. I've actually watched all of these videos, have you?

Edit: I'll add, there's plenty of statistics to support that our country doesn't have an "equality" problem. For example, minorities attend college at almost the same rate as "whites" as of 2019. (69.3% to 70%). Unemployment was under 6% for all ethnic groups before COVID too.

For people to act like the United States doesn't offer avenues for success to people of all creeds is patently absurd.

I don't believe that's true. I remember that being the spin from the cops. Even if it is though, it doesn't mean he deserved to be shot. Cops aren't judge, jury and executioner.

Police brutality is overwhelmingly focused on African Americans. Even cops themselves recognize this. Even if said black guy was actually committing a felony, there's no excuse for just kill him by asphyxiation like they did with George Floyd.

The problem with that is that inequality in opportunities and treatment between the white population and non-white population is still there and it's still strong, economically and culturally.

Numbers
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahhanse ... 217c9c164c

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... ouseholds/

Culture
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/r ... cna1235045

Police related
https://thecrimereport.org/2020/06/09/h ... dly-force/
https://thecrimereport.org/2020/07/09/s ... -searches/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/racial-bia ... n-america/


- At least 69% reported they do have implicit racial bias training and 57% of those departments said it was added in the five years since Michael Brown was shot to death by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri, sparking months of protests nationwide.
- About 59% of the agencies that responded to follow-up questions say they do not have a way to measure the success or failure of those programs.
- More than 70% of the departments we contacted completed our survey and 75% of departments who responded told us that they changed their training practices after controversial use-of-force incidents.
Of the departments that reported having implicit bias training, 90% say they make it mandatory.

US has a LOT to do to make their country fair to everybody.

You can choose not to believe it, but the video exists.

And you can continue to believe the cops should be allowed to murder people for any reason.

Whites and minorities attend university at the same rate in the US. Since education is such a talking point when it comes to equality, what more can be done there?

You can spin why African-Americans live in high crime areas however you want, but even my most Liberal friends will tell you to "avoid that part of town."

There's legally justified shootings, and there's illegal shootings. Take a law course sometime, read court documents and watch videos of events if they are available. It helps to do all those things before having an opinion.

Still murder though. "Legally justified" under our laws doesn't mean much when the law in this country has always been rotten, racist and bigoted to the core.

All these conservative arguments are the same. Cold and without humanity. The courts can rule however they will. Black people will still be allowed to be angry at the murder of people in their community by those wearing badges. History has played that out countless times in America. What the law says doesn't mean everyone just has to accept it and never be angry or want for change.

As I said, it's a matter of equality in opportunities. In education, the entire difference is written in stone on basic levels, up to high school. Black people is poorer but not because they wanna be poor or for being lazy, but still...

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/06/ ... nequality/

Education



Income return


Unemployment



Odds of being killed by Police



With such brutal social, economical, educational, health-related disadvantages, it's no wonder why they are poorer and pushed to commit felonies, for example.

The first two shots could be seen as justified because Brown did reach through the window and start a fight with the officer, who was armed with a gun. If Brown attempted to steal the gun that's a pretty clear signal to the officer that their life could be on the line.

However, after getting shot in the hand Brown backed off only for the officer to get out of the car and fire six rounds into brown, killing him. So yeah, that's an execution. It doesn't matter in the slightest that Brown may have tried to steal the gun. He was no longer a threat to the officer at that point.

^For some reason none of those images are displaying for me.



"There isn't a problem with systemic inequality" strikes me as an extremely bold claim. The majority of Black Americans would take issue with it (source). So, if I were to purport to know better than they do about the reality/unreality of inequality in this country, I would want to take extreme caution to ensure that I knew what I was talking about.

(Also, anecdotally, I've seen conservatives in the racism debate use (deliberately?) misleading statistical arguments to bolster their positions - for example: that the police have killed more white people than Black people in recent years. Such an argument obscures the point that Black people are killed by police at a greater rate than whites. That's not to say every statistical argument here is of the same character - just that there is some dishonest and misleading rhetoric out there, which is a reason to be very cautious in critiquing Black people's descriptions of their experience.)

I say "purport to know better" because, logically, I don't see how it's possible to deny the reality of systemic discrimination and disadvantage without believing in effect that most Black Americans have badly misperceived and misdiagnosed some key features of their lived experience. That would raise the question: How have so many Black Americans committed such a profound error?

Whatever happened to dont feed the troll, he isnt arguing in good faith