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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 2347
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:00 pm 
 

Here's the thing- to what end does arguing about socialism vs capitalism really help anybody? Rather than talking about airy fairy ideological positions and trying to implement grand schemes to completely change economic modes in an inorganic fashion, it makes vastly more sense to talk about and make changes to specific policies that will help people. "Overthrowing capitalism" is not a specific policy position as much as "the free market fixes everything" isn't.
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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:51 pm 
 

Overthrowing capitalism is the necessary starting point for any political program to address the problems we face, as all of those problems are ultimately rooted in the capitalist mode of production, and that mode of production and the power of the ruling class that benefits from it are the chief impediments to achieving real and lasting change. And yes, this is a "theoretical" point, but it is also a concrete and realizable material step that has been taken before and can and will be taken again.

I emphasize the need for the revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist system because it is the decisive and necessary first step toward the implementation of a program to rectify the multitude of ills our society faces, but this isn't simply an "airy fairy" ideological position. The Party for Socialism and Liberation has a concrete and comprehensive political program we would implement to fix what is wrong:

Quote:
The aim of the PSL is to abolish the corrupt, rotten and anti-people capitalist economy, state and governmental system, and replace it with one dedicated to meeting the needs of the people — a socialist system.

Solving the multiple crises of the present system is impossible without a revolution that ends the rule of the capitalist class and replaces it with a new state power that acts in the interest of the working class. Marx wrote, “The working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery and wield it for its own purposes.” In other words, the government that has worked so well for the capitalists cannot serve the interests of the working class. The dictatorship of the rich must be dismantled and replaced with the working class in power. A state and government “of, by and for” the workers must replace the capitalist state.

The foundation of any state power is repressive force—the military, police, prisons, courts and so on. The standing army and police must be disbanded and replaced by the armed people, organized in workers’ defense councils. A critical task of the new socialist order will be defending itself from the displaced capitalist class that would like to return to the days of exploitation.

A workers’ government would create an entirely different type of court system, with its basic institutions determined by the democratic organs of workers’ power. Judges would not be required to be lawyers.

All public officials, without exception, would be elected and subject to recall at any time by those who elected them. The salaries of all elected officials will be no higher than the average wage of workers. The same would be true for all those hired to carry out government and state business. Holding public office would be based on a real desire to serve, not on self-enrichment. Corporate lobbying would be eliminated — along with the corporations themselves.

A workers’ government would begin to build socialism by expropriating the privatized wealth of the banks, industry, agribusiness, mines and other wealth-generating properties, eliminating the vast control the capitalists have over production. This would be done without compensation to the capitalist owners who have stolen so much for so long from the workers and oppressed peoples of the world.

Under capitalism, each corporation plans how much goods and services to produce and sell in order to maximize profits. There is no overall plan how to allocate society’s finite resources, what should be produced, or what should be cut back or eliminated. The result is an enormous waste of resources, while the basic needs of billions go unmet.

Converting the private property of society to socially owned property is a necessary first step in building socialism, which would utilize the productive capacity of society and the natural resources of the planet for the benefit of humanity.

Whereas the goal of capitalist production is to make as much profit as quickly as possible, the goal of a socialist economy is to meet the needs of the people in a long-term and sustainable fashion. A socialist economy would enable workers to have access to more of what society produces. Planning is a critical component of a socialist economy.

Socialism is the necessary stage between capitalism and communism. The full achievement of socialism will require the development of the economy to meet the fundamental needs of the working class and the population as a whole. It will also be marked by the fading away of classes and class antagonisms. This cannot happen overnight.

Socialists use the term “private property” to refer to the system of capitalism—that is, the private ownership of the means of production: the factories, the land, the natural resources, such as oil and water, and the machinery to produce privately owned wealth. Under socialism, a home is regarded as personal property, not as a commodity for investment. Under socialism, housing would be a guaranteed right, and no individual would be able to own another person’s home.

Ironically, under capitalism, the system that claims to uphold the sacred right of private property, homelessness has become a permanent feature and millions of people are losing their homes through foreclosures. Under socialism, in Cuba for example, despite being blockaded by the United States, there is no homelessness because a home is considered a human right. This was only possible through the elimination of “private property,” including landlordism.

Achieving fully developed socialism, a goal that has not yet been achieved anywhere, will open the way to communism and the end of class society. Communism will also mean the “withering away” of the repressive state, which only came into being with the rise of class society.

Socialism can only be achieved by a mass movement of millions of people organized to fight for what is rightfully theirs. In working to build the movement that will usher in the next revolution—a socialist revolution—the PSL puts forward the following struggle-based program. This program outlines what a genuine workers’ government would do:

A Revolutionary Socialist Government

In order to guarantee the interests of working and poor people who make up the vast majority of the United States, a new revolutionary government run by and for the workers and poor will be established. The present capitalist government—the role of which has been to defend the big-business system of exploitation by a web of hundreds of measures, legal and illegal, and has been accessible only to the super-rich elite—will be abolished.

- A primary function of the socialist government will be planning and administering the economy in the interests of working and poor people, as set forth below, and implementing the measures to fulfill those interests.

- Participation and representation in the new government will be guaranteed through democratically organized workplace, neighborhood and school committees. The “professional politicians” and big-business political parties will be replaced with the political organization of the working class.

- There will be no distinction between the legislative and executive functions of government. Those who enact measures will be responsible for carrying them out. All elected representatives will be subject to recall at any time by the bodies that elect them.

- Elected officials of the new workers’ government will be paid an average worker’s salary and will receive no special privileges.

- There will be primary government institutions created guaranteeing representation of all nationalities inside the United States. In recognition of centuries of national oppression and systematic exclusion, and to protect the interests of all, the socialist government structures would be constructed to assure equal representation from all nationalities in the United States.

- The current legal and criminal justice system is infested with racism and class privilege, and will be replaced by a new justice system based on the democratic organization of the working class and its right to defend its class interests on the basis of solidarity and unity.

- The rights of freedom of speech and political involvement will be extended to all. These rights will only be abridged in the efforts to eliminate racism, xenophobia and all forms of bigotry, or to prevent the re-establishment of the capitalist system of exploitation and oppression.

- There will be a complete separation of church and state, with no one religion favored over another and no favoring of religion over the absence of religion.

- No law will be enacted that discriminates against people based on nationality, gender, sexual orientation or gender expression. The new government will take it as the highest priority to remedy the legacy of institutionalized divisions and inequalities perpetuated against wide sectors of the working class that had continued without respite for hundreds of years, by measures of affirmative action and other measures listed below.

- Older and retired people will be able to live a dignified and fulfilling life with the constitutionally guaranteed rights to housing, health care, food and cultural activities, among other rights. The socialist government will allocate resources to ensure the maximum participation in society of older and retired people. The socialist government will initiate an educational campaign to promote respect for older people and to value their contributions to society.

- People with disabilities will be guaranteed full access to, and participation in, society, with the government allocating resources to eliminate barriers in housing, education, employment and public facilities. The new government will initiate an educational campaign to promote respect for and programs in the interests of people with disabilities, promoting their contributions to society.

- The socialist government will place great importance on the social development of children. The socialist government will allocate resources to develop programs for the intellectual, physical, psychological and social development of young people.

- The defense of the revolutionary government will be organized on the basis of the armed, organized working class. All foreign military bases will be closed immediately.

- The socialist government will approach the peoples of the world on the principles of international working-class solidarity. All occupations, military interventions and military proxy wars, agreements and alliances carried out by the previous imperialist government will be ended immediately.

A national assembly will craft a new Constitution that enshrines and protects the interests of workers and oppressed peoples, to address, at minimum, the issues outlined below

Socialism: Addressing the interests of working and poor people

The socialist government will be directed to address the interests of working and poor people. This means that no laws, regulations or measures will negatively impact the rights of working and poor people in society. The following issues will be addressed by the new government as initial steps in developing socialism, to be further deepened and expanded upon as the process for socialist construction unfolds.

- The exploitation of labor for private profit will be prohibited.

- It will be a right of every person in the United States to have a job with guaranteed union representation and full social benefits provided by the socialist government, including a pension, health care, workers’ compensation, paid parental and family leave for up to two years, paid sick and disability leave, a minimum of one month’s paid vacation, and at least 12 paid holidays.

- Poverty will be eradicated by providing a guaranteed living income for any worker who is not able to find or hold a job. Priority in addressing the legacy of capitalism will be granted to communities that have suffered disproportionately in the past.

- Citizenship rights will be granted to every person living in the United States. No person will be discriminated against in any way due to past citizenship status.

- Working conditions will aim to enhance the humanity and dignity of all workers. The working week will be 30 hours. Child care for workers will be provided by the socialist government at no cost to the parents. There will be cultural and athletic opportunities for all workers during and after working hours.

- The socialist government will provide free, high-quality health care to every person living in the United States, regardless of citizenship. For-profit health care and private insurance companies will be outlawed.

- The socialist government will provide decent housing for every person in the United States. No person will pay more than 10 percent of their income on housing costs. It will be illegal to generate private profit by renting or selling land. No person may suffer foreclosure or eviction.

- The socialist government will provide free, high-quality education to every person in the United States from pre-school through college, as well as post-college educational opportunities for life-long learning to advance the technical and cultural level of society, as well as the promotion of working-class unity and international solidarity. The historic disparities in educational quality and opportunities in Black, Latino, Asian and Native communities, and other working-class communities, will be addressed as a first order of business. The intellectual products of colleges and universities will be the property of society, with no patents, trademarks, copyrights or private profit from social knowledge and materials.

- The socialist government will approach agriculture by implementing sustainable methods. This means environmental protection — including moving the agricultural system away from harmful industrial practices to more regenerative methods; water and soil conservation; and improving the quality of life of agricultural laborers and rural communities by providing adequate wages, safe working conditions, year-round employment opportunities, housing, health care, education, social and recreational services, the elimination of “guest worker” programs and all laws discriminating against workers on the basis of citizenship, and humane treatment of animals.

- Meeting the food and nutritional needs of the population will be the responsibility of the government. All schools and workplaces will provide healthy meals to those who study or work there. Food and water will be produced according to a democratic and rational plan, with opportunities for the input of all people into what foods are produced and the manner in which they are produced and distributed.

- The socialist government will recognize that environmental sustainability is essential for the future development of the economy and society. Environmental considerations will be made in every area of economic and social planning, and there will be special efforts to remedy and end environmental degradation, including but not limited to: Ending all fossil fuel and nuclear energy use, creating a distributed energy infrastructure based on renewable sources, retrofitting existing buildings and build new buildings to a net zero energy standard, linking urban centers and rural communities with zero-emission mass transit systems.

- Penal institutions will be organized on the principle of social education and rehabilitation. Those convicted of unlawful acts will maintain political rights while participating in their rehabilitation.

Liberation: Overcoming racism, exploitation, national oppression and all forms of bigotry

The new government will seek to codify the goals of eradicating racism, national oppression and all forms of exploitation and bigotry. The following issues will be addressed by the new government.

With the goal of the unity of the multinational U.S. working class on the basis of class solidarity, the new government will work to eliminate white supremacy, racism and privilege as an immediate task, recognizing that this goal will not be achieved automatically or by decree. It will be prohibited to advocate any form of racism, xenophobia, national hatred or discrimination based on ability.

- The socialist government will recognize the inviolable right of all oppressed nations to self-determination with regard to their means of gaining and maintaining their liberation. In the United States, this includes the right of self-determination for African American, Native, Puerto Rican and other Latino national minorities, the Hawai’ian nation, Asian, Pacific Islander, Arab and other oppressed peoples that have experienced oppression as a whole people under capitalism.

- The socialist government will institute a program of reparations for the African American community to address the centuries of unpaid slave labor and super-exploitation.

- The existing colonial relationships of the United States will be dissolved. Independence will be immediately granted to Puerto Rico with full reparations for colonial exploitation, and the right of free travel between the U.S. and Puerto Rico. Samoa, Guam, the Virgin Islands and Mariana Islands will be free to exercise their right to self-determination, up to and including independence, with reparations and the right to free travel between the former colonies and the U.S. mainland. Restitution, including the return of land stolen, will be provided for Native Nations. Further, the socialist government will reaffirm the right of Native Nations to self-determination, up to and including independence.

- The socialist government will institute programs on the basis of proletarian internationalism to help overcome the ravages of U.S. imperialism that have exploited the people, resources and economies of other countries with an emphasis on sovereignty, solidarity, revolutionary assistance and reparations.

- All U.S. workers will have the right to speak the language of their choosing. All government services and education will be provided with multilingual provisions.

- Sexism and other forms of male chauvinism and oppression of women will be eliminated as an immediate task, recognizing that this goal will not be achieved automatically or by decree. It will be prohibited to advocate any form of sexism or male chauvinism.

- The socialist government will guarantee the right of women workers to receive the same pay, benefits and treatment as their male counterparts.

- The right to contraception, birth control and abortion services will not be restricted in any way, nor will there be any restriction on a woman’s right to decide to have children or not. Abortion services will be available free and on demand.

- It will be the responsibility of the socialist government to provide women with the right to choose to have children by providing free, high-quality pre- and post-natal health care and child care. Any caregiver will be given access to free child care.

- All forms of bigotry, discrimination or the promotion of hatred against lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgender and queer people, or against anyone on the basis of their sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression, will be eliminated, including in marriage rights, employment, housing, adoption and health care. It will be prohibited to advocate any form of bigotry, discrimination or hatred against LGBTQ people.

- No law or measure will give preference in word or in deed that favors heterosexual relationships over other relationships.

- There will be a sustained public education campaign promoting the goals of multinational working-class unity and international solidarity, the advancement of women’s rights, the promotion of respect of sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression, as well as exposing the evils of racism, sexism, anti-LGBTQ bigotry, xenophobia, and bigotry based on ability or national chauvinism. Affirmative action measures will be instituted wherever needed to eliminate the effects of historical discrimination in education, employment, promotion, housing and other areas.
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~Guest 361478
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 1930
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:11 pm 
 

Please delete- must not argue with these creeps :lol:


Last edited by ~Guest 361478 on Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:24 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:
Political extremists don't actually want to help people, though, they want to break things and satisfy their own personal issues by causing trouble for others. I mean, they don't actually do that either, so they sit around the table in the pub and bicker about -isms, -ologies, and Leon Trotsky. Meanwhile the grownups get on with life.


Spoken like a true son of privilege.
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~Guest 361478
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:31 pm 
 

.


Last edited by ~Guest 361478 on Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:34 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Spoken like a true son of privilege.


As if the poorest parts of America are largely talking about how the social order of the country needs systemically dismantled and recreated to better their lives. Most underprivileged people are just worried about getting food on their table and if they can pay off their college/medical debt, much less survive a global pandemic. Having the time to think about broad ideological positions is a privilege in and of itself.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:36 pm 
 

Nah I think most of the unprivileged also prefer realistic change. Things like a higher minimum wage, better welfare and education, more enviromental regulations. All things that can be accomplished under the current system, and have been accomplished in places under the current system. I think it's a much better idea to spend energy on continuing that instead of wanting to uproot the whole system.

Also, there is a climate catastrophe staring us right in the face. And while I don't have the most optimistic view on how we're handling that atm, I think it's safe to say that a world wide socialist revolution is so far outside of the realm of possibilities that it isn't worth considering as a realistic solution.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:22 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:

Tell me about that, after your next fishing trip :lol:

You don't know me, but I know you - just another angry bigot out to harm in the name of a cause. I've known and rejected your kind all my life.


I've been fired from my job because of who I am.

I've been evicted from my home because of who I am.

I've been raped and told it was to "fix" me, because of who I am. When I reported this assault to police, it was dismissed and never investigated because the cops assumed I was a sex worker disputing payment with a john, not because of any evidence that this was so, but merely because they made assumptions about me based on who I am.

I've been beaten because of who I am.

I receive threats of death and sexual violence every single day because of who I am and because I've chosen to stand up and fight back for myself and other oppressed people.

I live with HIV. The progress of the disease is only held at bay by medication that costs more than $50k a year. I haven't made more than $15k in a year since 2004. If I lost my insurance, I would die a slow and agonizing death.

Am I angry? You're damn right I'm angry. I'm incandescently furious, and I have every right to be furious. This society treats me as something less than human. This society systematically oppresses me and discriminates against me. This society is chock full to the brim with people who would have me and those like me exterminated if they could, not because of anything that we do or have done, but simply because of who we are.

But yeah, sometimes I get a day off and occasionally even use that time to do something I love just because it brings me a tiny shred of joy in a world that inflicts misery on me for who I am, so I guess I'm just a privileged whiner :roll:
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:25 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Spoken like a true son of privilege.


As if the poorest parts of America are largely talking about how the social order of the country needs systemically dismantled and recreated to better their lives. Most underprivileged people are just worried about getting food on their table and if they can pay off their college/medical debt, much less survive a global pandemic. Having the time to think about broad ideological positions is a privilege in and of itself.


The most radical demands made of our society have always come from those most oppressed within it. Black folks. Immigrants. Queer people like me.
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Napero
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:08 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Bunch of stuff

Now, you're saying that you'll abolish banks (and my mortgage, since the entity would effectively be gone), I get to keep my house as a basic human right, no one can live here as an extra tenant since that would be capitalist exploitation by me, and I could give the finger to my boss and his boss and still live with the same standard of living as everybody else since it's a human right? In my case that would mean the same net income with about 240k€ less debt, no possibility of ever being removed from my house no matter what my employment status is, and an assured average income. Also, as many of the non-ownership items on the list are actually parts of what the actively fascist Finnish government is already actively pursuing, I guess the shift from the current yoke of oppression we live under now to your communist utopia would not be such a big deal. So sign me the fuck up!

I do have a few questions, though, but I guess they are just irrelevant "from this it obviously follows" kinda stuff. Like, well, assuming I loved cheeseburgers... what would be the mechanism to guarantee I get, say, a meager one cheeseburger a week, if all the corporations providing the production and logistical chains for the ingredients, and the final preparation and serving the burger itself, would be abolished? The same goes for other absolutely vital stuff, such as caviar and oatmeal. But I guess you have a grand design for that, since no political system can function without concrete plans on how to keep the society going, unless starvation of millions is an acceptable side effect of the change...

Since silencing any dissenting voices raised against the future establishment seems to be built into your system through various items openly stated on your programme, I will in the future assume that you're OK with employing such measures in maintaining the order on the very form of non-corporate media you're actively employing in spreading your message, should someone act in direct conflict with the rules in place and the polite wishes of those chosen to enforce them. Practice what you preach and all that jazz, eh? We could even vote on it among our peers, by asking everybody on the board for opinions on the severity of the alleged crimes being committed, but I guess that would be a going a bit far and take too much time, since we also obviously agree that the ones making the judgement need not be professional lawyers. Also, in short, I guess we can agree that becoming a martyr of one's cause through direct and intentional violation of stated lines circumspectly but clearly drawn in the sand by those with power invested in them by the powers-that-be, is only highly respected in the eyes of those agreeing with the agenda of the transgressor, but definitely not by those viewing the ongoing exchange of ideas from neutral points of view. In other words, taking a hint is never mandatory, but often highly recommended.
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Dembo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:24 pm 
 

In socialism, giving your "boss" the finger would be giving the finger to the democratic process at your workplace that elected him/her. If you're in favour of democracy, you'd probably achieve more by using the democratic process to solve the problems that drove you to want to give the boss the finger. Also, various places may have differing policies regarding anti-social behavior.

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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:13 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Unorthodox wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Spoken like a true son of privilege.


As if the poorest parts of America are largely talking about how the social order of the country needs systemically dismantled and recreated to better their lives. Most underprivileged people are just worried about getting food on their table and if they can pay off their college/medical debt, much less survive a global pandemic. Having the time to think about broad ideological positions is a privilege in and of itself.


The most radical demands made of our society have always come from those most oppressed within it. Black folks. Immigrants. Queer people like me.


Seems like the wealthy have the luxury of introducing radical change.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:47 pm 
 

Need to refill your salt and/or schadenfreude silos? Check out thedonald right now. It's 2016 but for us!
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:59 pm 
 

r/Conservative is loaded with sad, delusional people too. None of them beat the Parler losers though, who are actively calling for the assassination of every SCOTUS justice right now.

Spoiler: show
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:37 am 
 

So the second most mature and politically competent candidate in this election was Kanye West.
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CoconutBackwards
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:31 am 
 

Subrick wrote:
r/Conservative is loaded with sad, delusional people too. None of them beat the Parler losers though, who are actively calling for the assassination of every SCOTUS justice right now.

Spoiler: show
Image


Reddit is a horrible place to spend any amount of time.
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Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 1116
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:36 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Bunch of stuff

Now, you're saying that you'll abolish banks (and my mortgage, since the entity would effectively be gone), I get to keep my house as a basic human right, no one can live here as an extra tenant since that would be capitalist exploitation by me, and I could give the finger to my boss and his boss and still live with the same standard of living as everybody else since it's a human right? In my case that would mean the same net income with about 240k€ less debt, no possibility of ever being removed from my house no matter what my employment status is, and an assured average income. Also, as many of the non-ownership items on the list are actually parts of what the actively fascist Finnish government is already actively pursuing, I guess the shift from the current yoke of oppression we live under now to your communist utopia would not be such a big deal. So sign me the fuck up!


Welcome to the struggle, comrade!

Quote:
I do have a few questions, though, but I guess they are just irrelevant "from this it obviously follows" kinda stuff. Like, well, assuming I loved cheeseburgers... what would be the mechanism to guarantee I get, say, a meager one cheeseburger a week, if all the corporations providing the production and logistical chains for the ingredients, and the final preparation and serving the burger itself, would be abolished? The same goes for other absolutely vital stuff, such as caviar and oatmeal. But I guess you have a grand design for that, since no political system can function without concrete plans on how to keep the society going, unless starvation of millions is an acceptable side effect of the change...


The abolition of corporations isn't the abolition of supply chains or of end means of production, it is merely that abolition of the private expropriation of the surplus value created by labor, i.e. profit. A socialist government doesn't mean the end of production, it simply means that production would be planned and administered to meet the human needs of the whole of society rather than to accumulate wealth in the private hands of a tiny class of owners.
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Inkshooter
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:42 pm 
 

Quote:
"I have proposed, in the past, that the JDPON should disperse the Amerikkkans throughout the Third World instead of allowing them to remain in occupied North America. Here are some of my reasons:

1) A geographic concentration of Amerikkkans would facilitate counterrevolution. It would also be difficult to exercise proletarian dictatorship over hundreds of millions of enemies: we would need to import a huge unproductive sector of police and such from the Third World. As a practical matter, it would be better to thin the Amerikkkans out, making them minorities in the Third World, where they could easily be controlled and supervised by the international proletariat.

2) Amerikkkans will need to undergo re-education. It would be very difficult to re-educate them in their own kkkountry. They need to be in a proletarian environment where they can learn from the masses.

3) There are land claims to settle, mainly for the First Nations, but also for Aztlán and perhaps the Black nation. Conceivably some other nations could be moved to North America if they wished to be, such as Nauru or the small nations in Ghana whose land has been ruined by imperialist corporations. Amerikkkans are going to have to move out of much of North America and make room for other nations.

4) Amerikkkan kkkulture is almost totally reactionary. There is little worth saving in Amerikkkan kkkulture. It would be better to force Amerikkkans to assimilate to the more culturally and politically advanced peoples of the Third World. There is also historic justice in forcing Amerikkkans to assimilate, just as they destroyed so many other nations and cultures.

5) In the early stages of socialism, the Third World will require skilled workers and technicians of various kinds, including medical personnel. These persyns are disproportionately concentrated in the First World. Moving them to the Third World will be a practical way to address an urgent need.

6) The Third World is also owed big reparations. An excellent way to make those reparations is to put Amerikkkans to work building infrastructure in the Third World: roads, housing, water supplies, sewage, electricity, telecommunications, schools. Amerikkkans can also work in Third World factories and fields to expand production for the benefit of the Third World.

7) Part of the process of civilizing and proletarianizing Amerikkkans will be putting them to productive work--for a change. Amerikkka has so little productive capacity that there may not be many ways to put all those people to work in occupied North America. They may have to go to the factories and fields of the Third World.

8 ) Amerikkkans will need to be reduced to a Third World standard of living. If they stay in occupied North Amerikkka, they will benefit from the vastly better infrastructure and all the stolen wealth that they currently hold. It would be better to move them to the Third World as a way of accelerating the process of re-education.

9) There are historical precedents for relocating large numbers of enemies. Millions of Germans were forced to move after the Soviet victory over fascism in World War II. Even enemies like the united $nakes and the "united" KKKingdom agreed that it was necessary to move Germans off land that was needed for Poles, Czechs, and others.

Again, this is related to the national question of the First Nations, Aztlán, and the Black nation.

Is this a good idea? What are its advantages and disadvantages? How can we improve upon it?"
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:44 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Welcome to the struggle, comrade!

That's several levels of clever. You're clearly around the internet long enough to know that Napero is making fun of you, but make a response that seems like you don't get it, but you do get it, but make the response ironically, but are serious in the ironic response. Regardless of arguments in the past, that's some multilayered shit I love.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:59 pm 
 

@Inkshooter

There's a reason that all the Maoist/Gonzaloite/Third Worldist parties outside of the actual Third World are like 20 very online people (minimum: 4 cops per party) and a venmo account.
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Last edited by Sedition and Pockets on Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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~Guest 361478
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:01 pm 
 

Inkshooter wrote:
Spoiler: show
Quote:
"I have proposed, in the past, that the JDPON should disperse the Amerikkkans throughout the Third World instead of allowing them to remain in occupied North America. Here are some of my reasons:

1) A geographic concentration of Amerikkkans would facilitate counterrevolution. It would also be difficult to exercise proletarian dictatorship over hundreds of millions of enemies: we would need to import a huge unproductive sector of police and such from the Third World. As a practical matter, it would be better to thin the Amerikkkans out, making them minorities in the Third World, where they could easily be controlled and supervised by the international proletariat.

2) Amerikkkans will need to undergo re-education. It would be very difficult to re-educate them in their own kkkountry. They need to be in a proletarian environment where they can learn from the masses.

3) There are land claims to settle, mainly for the First Nations, but also for Aztlán and perhaps the Black nation. Conceivably some other nations could be moved to North America if they wished to be, such as Nauru or the small nations in Ghana whose land has been ruined by imperialist corporations. Amerikkkans are going to have to move out of much of North America and make room for other nations.

4) Amerikkkan kkkulture is almost totally reactionary. There is little worth saving in Amerikkkan kkkulture. It would be better to force Amerikkkans to assimilate to the more culturally and politically advanced peoples of the Third World. There is also historic justice in forcing Amerikkkans to assimilate, just as they destroyed so many other nations and cultures.

5) In the early stages of socialism, the Third World will require skilled workers and technicians of various kinds, including medical personnel. These persyns are disproportionately concentrated in the First World. Moving them to the Third World will be a practical way to address an urgent need.

6) The Third World is also owed big reparations. An excellent way to make those reparations is to put Amerikkkans to work building infrastructure in the Third World: roads, housing, water supplies, sewage, electricity, telecommunications, schools. Amerikkkans can also work in Third World factories and fields to expand production for the benefit of the Third World.

7) Part of the process of civilizing and proletarianizing Amerikkkans will be putting them to productive work--for a change. Amerikkka has so little productive capacity that there may not be many ways to put all those people to work in occupied North America. They may have to go to the factories and fields of the Third World.

8 ) Amerikkkans will need to be reduced to a Third World standard of living. If they stay in occupied North Amerikkka, they will benefit from the vastly better infrastructure and all the stolen wealth that they currently hold. It would be better to move them to the Third World as a way of accelerating the process of re-education.

9) There are historical precedents for relocating large numbers of enemies. Millions of Germans were forced to move after the Soviet victory over fascism in World War II. Even enemies like the united $nakes and the "united" KKKingdom agreed that it was necessary to move Germans off land that was needed for Poles, Czechs, and others.

Again, this is related to the national question of the First Nations, Aztlán, and the Black nation.

Is this a good idea? What are its advantages and disadvantages? How can we improve upon it?"


Which particular guide to ethnic cleansing is that horrorshow from ?

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:09 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:
Which particular guide to ethnic cleansing is that horrorshow from ?


Reddit, of course.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:10 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Welcome to the struggle, comrade!

That's several levels of clever. You're clearly around the internet long enough to know that Napero is making fun of you, but make a response that seems like you don't get it, but you do get it, but make the response ironically, but are serious in the ironic response. Regardless of arguments in the past, that's some multilayered shit I love.


I mean, I ain't always been on the "right side of history," but I am a veteran of the wars... ;-)
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:33 pm 
 

To be fair though, Falco didn't convince anyone to be a Nazi, and you're not gonna convince anyone either, so the original question posed by Napero is still valid, of why even trying. Places with a lower average age would obviously be a better choice. You gotta know that convincing people in their late 30s with all the life experiences that come with that to take part in some revolution isn't going to work ever. In fact your former Jewfro master prozak knew how to target audiences with the lowest possible average age who were nowhere near having their lives figured out yet, that's how the guy got any kind of following in the first place, Manson style. Trying to tell adult people with working lives that their lives aren't working is just never going to work. Need to aim for some 16-18 year olds. Sorry to say because, again, regardless of arguments in the past I don't want to punish you horribly and painfully, but, realistically, that means reddit.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:12 pm 
 

For all the people who believe we need a revolution I'd just like to encourage you how to check up on many people worldwide have been lifted out of poverty in our lifetimes. Lula alone, corrupt as he was, lifted 30 million people out of poverty with his according to Dembo totally right wing and fascist social democracy. Africa today has skyscraper cities by the dozens with people checking their smartphones while they have their latte with no flies circling around bloated bellies. The world is doing incredibly well in the past decades. There were billions in abject poverty when I was born, now it is millions. We do not need a revolution. We need to stay on course and not let multinationals and their goons take it away from us. Humanist center left is the greatest success story in the entirety of human history. Nothing else even comes 0.000001% close, neither liberterian failures nor "send everyone to the gulags" failures.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:05 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
To be fair though, Falco didn't convince anyone to be a Nazi, and you're not gonna convince anyone either, so the original question posed by Napero is still valid, of why even trying. Places with a lower average age would obviously be a better choice. You gotta know that convincing people in their late 30s with all the life experiences that come with that to take part in some revolution isn't going to work ever. In fact your former Jewfro master prozak knew how to target audiences with the lowest possible average age who were nowhere near having their lives figured out yet, that's how the guy got any kind of following in the first place, Manson style. Trying to tell adult people with working lives that their lives aren't working is just never going to work. Need to aim for some 16-18 year olds. Sorry to say because, again, regardless of arguments in the past I don't want to punish you horribly and painfully, but, realistically, that means reddit.


Realistically, I don't view online platforms as a primary recruiting tool. Social media has changed that calculus somewhat because it allows us to identify people who are already good candidates for recruitment and reach out to them on an individual basis, but most of our recruiting efforts grow out of our on-the-ground mass work. PSL is a Leninist formation; we're not trying to make Party members out of everyone. The idea is to identify folks who are already organizers and leaders in their community and bring them into the Party where we can provide them with the resources and organizational support to do what they're already doing in a more effective way. The old 'shoulder tap,' if you will.

I see online engagement as being mostly educational in nature, as a means of exposing people to socialist ideas which they by and large will not have encountered in their daily lives outside of an academic setting, and as an opportunity to hone my own rhetorical skills and improve my ability to articulate our vision for the world.

As for reddit, it is a cesspool. It is pretty much scientifically engineered to elevate the most extreme and impractical voices in an echo chamber environment, and my experience is that its core userbase basically doesn't live in the real world. It attracts almost exclusively the very online. Plus, it is riddled with provocateurs, cops, intelligence service stringers and other fundamentally dishonest and potentially dangerous actors.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:11 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
For all the people who believe we need a revolution I'd just like to encourage you how to check up on many people worldwide have been lifted out of poverty in our lifetimes. Lula alone, corrupt as he was, lifted 30 million people out of poverty with his according to Dembo totally right wing and fascist social democracy. Africa today has skyscraper cities by the dozens with people checking their smartphones while they have their latte with no flies circling around bloated bellies.


Lula was jailed and his achievements have been systematically dismantled by the fascist Bolsonaro regime, and Africa, for all of the gleaming modernity of some of its cities, is still a locus of misery and suffering where millions die from hunger and the lack of access to basic medical care every year.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:21 pm 
 

Africa is actually a continent made up of dozens of different nations and not a nation by itself you racist piece of shit, and individual nations on that continent continue to advance their economies very successfully. Maybe you get a better perspective if you stop seeing it as "the place with them negroes" and start seeing it as individual nations that all have their indiviual way of doing things. Treating Africa as a singular nation is maximum racist. How are people in Malawi responsible for poverty in Morocco? 'cause they're all black according to Falco.

Lula just like Gandhi was a flawed leader who is paying the price for his personal weaknesses, doesn't diminish the accomplishment of the dozens of millions he lifted out of poverty. And there is absolutely nothing Bolsonaro has been able to do about it, he tries so hard, but none of the people lifted to middle class by Lula have been pushed back to poverty by Kommandant Jair.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:45 pm 
 

LOL, not to defend S&P, but nice hook there drone:

> Speaks about 'Africa' generally as an entity full of skyscrapers and smartphones.
> Response using the same use of 'Africa' generally.
> "How dare you treat 'Africa' so generally like an entity, when it's made up of multiple entities!"
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:48 pm 
 

That's some creative reading that is very typical for the compulsive liar everyone knows you to be indeed. But I think everyone who is not a compulsive liar knows exactly what I said.

(Seek treatment please, it's been an issue for years.)

PS. There is no need to go in circles about the shit you constantly randomly make up from thin air. Normal people here talk about things that actually happen and that people actually said, all the random things you randomly invent, they only exist in your mind, and really they have nothing to do with reality, I really hope one day you come to terms with that.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:03 pm 
 

But good luck on the decreasing interest in review challenges based on the decreasing competence of who's moderating them. Year from now we'll have 12 virgin reviews and the decrease will be because something we made up about droneriot. :lol:
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:07 pm 
 

OK? Don't even know what you're on about, or what it has to do with politics, but clearly that hit a nerve... somehow.
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EldritchSun
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:25 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
droneriot wrote:
For all the people who believe we need a revolution I'd just like to encourage you how to check up on many people worldwide have been lifted out of poverty in our lifetimes. Lula alone, corrupt as he was, lifted 30 million people out of poverty with his according to Dembo totally right wing and fascist social democracy. Africa today has skyscraper cities by the dozens with people checking their smartphones while they have their latte with no flies circling around bloated bellies.


Lula was jailed and his achievements have been systematically dismantled by the fascist Bolsonaro regime, and Africa, for all of the gleaming modernity of some of its cities, is still a locus of misery and suffering where millions die from hunger and the lack of access to basic medical care every year.


For every billionaire in Africa or every skyscraper built, they are literally millions living in a nadir of poverty and misery. Just saying. Capitalism at its best.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandso ... al-country

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:26 pm 
 

Africa is not a nation. Don't be like Sedition and Pockets or Derigin and pretend that millions of people being lifted out of poverty on the continent means the continent is a nation. Don't be a sick racist piece of shit.
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Inkshooter
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:35 pm 
 



Okay, I'll stop.
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EldritchSun
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:36 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Africa is not a nation. Don't be like Sedition and Pockets or Derigin and pretend that millions of people being lifted out of poverty on the continent means the continent is a nation. Don't be a sick racist piece of shit.

It's the contrary. To just pretend that the shit that's going on in South Africa is a marginal or individual issue as a nation, it's pretty heartless, narrow-minded and ultimately horrible. There you go, the whole damn continent is under the same shit and that's not racist, it's empathetic.

https://newafricanmagazine.com/6156/

https://africasacountry.com/2017/01/afr ... ity-rising

https://www.ezega.com/News/NewsDetails/ ... -in-Africa

"The level of poverty in Africa at 41% is still high compared to other developing continents.

Income inequality in Africa stems from its highly dual economic structure. High-income sectors like multinational entities and the extractive industries offer the limited capacity to create employment compared to the informal sector, where a majority are low-income earners"
.

2/5 of Africans live in absolute poverty. There's virtually no middle class. That's pretty fucked up and downright inhuman.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:44 pm 
 

Just no. I'm German. I worked in an entry level job. With lots of people from all over Africa. They are simply not in any way the same, they all have their own identity, their own issues, their own way of life, they are not the fucking same. What a fucking racist fucking shit is it to say oh people are from Africa they're all the same cause it's the black people continent.

People I worked with: North Africans, they wanna be back, they just dislike their dictators. Eritrians, same, but visceral hate instead of dislike. Ethiopians, they want to work to send money back to support their country. Nigerians they want to start businesses in Europe. Kenians they want to establish trading footholds. Kongoans, they want to be left alone. Tanzanians, a mix between Kenians and Nigerians, want to start businesses connected to their homes. Angolans and Namibians, they are basically tourists who want to see Europe and then go back home. Lots of different people and motivations.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:30 pm 
 

@droneriot

droneriot wrote:
Africa today has skyscraper cities by the dozens with people checking their smartphones while they have their latte with no flies circling around bloated bellies.


Sedition and Pockets wrote:
and Africa, for all of the gleaming modernity of some of its cities, is still a locus of misery and suffering where millions die from hunger and the lack of access to basic medical care every year.


In both quotes you guys are making a general statement about the continent. No one's making shit up from thin air and no one is treating it as a singular nation, people are just using your own terms to reply to you. Chill out.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:51 pm 
 

Can we have a separate Capitalism rules vs. drools thread and stick to the hilarious shit happening with the subject of this entire thread?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:20 pm 
 

droneriot's point is valid but I'm virtually certain he isn't arguing in good faith.
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