If any Brits around here have any reservations about voting for Corbyn, recognizing who despises him most may convince you: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/n ... alth-taxes

It's annoying that ever since the word antisemitism is thrown around for criticising the Israeli government you always need to double and triple check every accusation if someone really is a racist asshole or if he just said something negative about Benjamin Netanyahu. Great job diluting the meaning of a word that stands for the death and suffering of millions of human beings.

The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein. Read it!

I find the story about the financing of the Leave campaign pretty interesting, so many of the big donors have a good friend called Vladimir, it's a recurring pattern now for campaigns based on xenophobia in the West.

Vote Leave:

Well looks like someone with a lot of experience with people who choose to leave, so I'll consider it an expert opinion.

Russia is doing pretty much the exact same thing they did for all the trendy-but-controversial leftist causes during the cold war. We only notice it more now because a) Moscow got better at it b) western citizens got dumber c) the internet makes it easier and reaches more people d) unlike the left, in general the right is not congenitally mediocre at politics.

The thing about Corbyn for me is that the other policies are irrelevant without a decent stance on Brexit. I'm as lefty liberal as they come really but can't see how you can pursue the public spending agenda to make a better country while not standing against something that will seriously damage the economy. He's a lame duck because Brexit will cripple his agenda and he refuses to take a stand against it. I think it's pretty much why he is struggling against the worst government in a generation - the majority of Labour voters and basically all his grassroots support are anti-Brexit. If he has no principle on the most important issue of the day, what is the point of him?

And now for the greatest thing ever: Alan Moore, writer of Watchmen and professional hater-of-everything, has come out saying that the Tories are so awful that he'll be voting for Labour in December, the first time he's voted in over forty years.

I mean, Alan Moore is a big lefty and even went on Chapo, and Corbyn is a once-in-a-lifetime left politician, so this is hardly surprising.

You've said this a couple of times now but I'm not sure I follow you. Corbyn's policies are not radical: they have been popular for decades throughout the UK. The man doesn't have much charisma, and doesn't come across as a leader - it is precisely because he is not a once-in-a-lifetime left politician that he is unable to exploit the right-wing mess of the current British government and is instead drowned out by their propaganda, just like many before him.

The article itself quotes Corbyn: “a manifesto full of popular policies that the political establishment has blocked for a generation”. Who is describing them as radical?

To quote Chris Hedges, "The politics of Jeremy Corbyn [...] are part of the global revolt against corporate tyranny. He had spent his long career as a pariah within his country’s political establishment. But because he held fast to the socialist ideals that defined the old Labour Party, he has risen untarnished out of the ash heap of neoliberalism. His integrity, as well as his fearlessness, offers a lesson to America’s self-identified left, which is long on rhetoric, preoccupied with accommodating the power elites—especially those in the Democratic Party—and very short on courage." If you think he's just another Andy Burnham, Ed Miliband (euck!) or fucking Tony Blair, I'm not sure I can help you.

His politics, like those of his American (and also inferior) doppleganger Bernie Sanders, are simply carrying on with what the left was supposed to be, which sadly today makes them both radical and rare. The smear campaign by Zionists and the British media class terrified of being separated from their ill-gotten capital gains has been effective. Whether it'll be as effective as it was in 2017 (i.e., not very) has yet to be seen but know this: you're not getting a chance to realign British politics across class lines like this ever again.

Yeah, the old Labour party. In the early 90s and beyond they were all like Corbyn. They've never gone away, just had their party wrenched from them by Blair and his ilk. In Scotland, the SNP saw what was happening to the Labour party, decided to stick with old Labour policies, and took over basically the entire Labour vote. Corbyn-type manifestos have never gone out of fashion up here and the SNP benefited greatly from that decision to stick left.

I sympathise with Corbyn but England is not gonna vote for him, not now.

Brexit will have many repercussions, one of which is a hardening of right-wing attitudes in England. Without a truly special left-wing politician to lead the way, I feel it could be many years before England swings back to the left.

And that's enough to never take anything you say remotely seriously again.

Could you guys elaborate? Please ensure you know what Zionism is first.

I'm a Zionist myself. The question is, can YOU elaborate on what ill-gotten capital gains have been made by Zionists? Or the British media class?

*peeks in*

Be cautious about wading into anti-Semitism here. It's unfortunately really easy for discussions to devolve into that. And we are watching.

Anti-Zionism and antisemitism are largely unrelated. Given that both Zionism and antisemitism stem from the extreme right, where even literal Nazis like Richard Spencer praise Israeli ethnonationalism, the only reasonable link between the two is that they're on the same side.

Regarding "Zionist money," refer to Finkelstein, whose parents were Holocaust survivors. It's a book everyone should read cover-to-cover.

Jews who advocate the ideology of Zionism are like African Americans who say that slavery isn't wrong in principle they just picked the wrong race to enslave. Sadly there are such people. Crazy world.

Like the NHS? One choice on the 12th.

Except not really, because just voting for Labour could actually help the Conservatives hold on to power. Tactical voting is a thing.

Friends don't let friends vote Lib Dem.

I'm fairly certain about not voting Labour this year. Jeremy Corbyn is a nice man with good intentions, but I haven't the slightest confidence he can deliver on his promises. His recent interview with Andrew Neil was appalling. Speaking of being untrustworthy, his only competition is Boris Johnson, which isn't saying very much. The independent candidates could have a loud voice in this election. I can't see how this election is going to facilitate any progress towards leaving the EU.
https://youtu.be/8EySXP15S8k

So you'd prefer America's privatized healthcare system to the NHS? Why?

No that's not correct, nor did I say that's what I am voting for. The problem is that both Corbyn and Johnson are extremely untrustworthy.

That's fair, his waffling over Brexit (because he's appalled at the lack of democracy in the way the EU is run) definitely is a good critique, as is the infamous "painting" (which near as I can tell is the only thing you could reasonably call antisemitism about him).

But if Johnson secures a majority, I honestly think the NHS will be gone within two or three years. I hope I'm wrong.

Anyway, the SNP is pretty decent.

Yeah, it's a big worry. I'll likely end up voting for an independent candidate. I don't believe Corbyn is anti-semitic at all, even the slightest error today risks having all these labels thrown around. He didn't help himself by not answering any questions in that car-crash interview though.

How so? Zionism was just the movement created in the late 1800's for the Jewish people to return to, what they consider, their promised land after the diaspora having lasted since about 70 CE. As far as I've understood Zionism was all about creating a Jewish state in Palestine. One can like that or dislike it (we all know claims on that particular piece of land is deeply problematic regardless of who tries to claim it) bu how is that in any way comparable to Africans supporting slavery?

Zionism is an ethnonationalist movement that seeks to create a racially pure state by any means necessary based on what they believe to be their birthright, including the occupation and subjugation of anyone who had the temerity to already be living there. The Jews who choose not to relocate or at least brazenly defend their claim to the land are viewed as, at best, "not true Jews" and at worst race traitors.

It's virtually indistinguishable from the claptrap Richard Spencer peddles, who himself rather unsurprisingly praises what Israel has done and happily expresses he wants the same for, ahem, "his" people.

Can I just add something quickly? In the US, much of the left was disgusted with Hillary for a variety of reasons, some of which were legitimate, some of which were not. Many of them voted third party or simply left blank their presidential vote. On one hand, it's hard to blame people voting their conscience. Yet thanks to this well-intentioned vote abstinence, we now have a conservative majority on the Supreme Court that will last decades and a record number of other neocon judges piled on to nearly every court in the country. Under Trump, cataclysmic climate change has accelerated tenfold, we're stuffing countless civilians and children into concentration camps where many suffer severe health afflictions and some even die, and the separation of church and state grows ever murkier (thanks in large part to those aforementioned judges). Was the harm done to the very people the "never Hillarys" care most about really worth the justifiable trepidation they had for putting Hillary in charge of the US? Even if there could be someone on the left who would be better in just four more years? In my opinion, absolutely not.

I realize the UK uses a representative democracy with coalitions rather than the US's two party, winner-takes-all dogshit, but at the end of the day, the only way to ensure a non-shitty deal (Johnson will absolutely crash out of the EU if he secures a majority) and the preservation of the most popular social programs (Johnson will absolutely privatize everything he can as a way to damage control the destruction wrought by his no-deal Brexit) is with a Labour majority.

Hillary really could've gotten us into a second Cold War with Russia. But Trump was always going to shred what little is left of this country from the inside out, and that's exactly what came to pass.

That's why I just can't fathom how, if you appreciate the NHS and similar programs, that you would actively choose to vote for someone other than Labour. It's not a false dichotomy, it's a literal dichotomy. All the good intentions in the world won't save a grandmother who will die without dialysis because she can't pay the exorbitant private insurance fees.

Dude, there are no concentration camps. The children are basically just going to cheep orphanages and the adults are getting deported for breaking the law. Hillary would not start a cold war, she would start a nuclear war. Stop deluding yourself.

Super off-topic but I can't help but seize the opportunity to rant: right, it's not a concentration camp, it's just a concentration of people with a particular skin color and small pool of languages held against their will in what could best be described as a camp. But you don't have to take my word for it. Ask the thousands of US Jews across the country who are part of Never Again movement. Organizer for Never Again Leah Fur said of the ICE protests, "I do this because I’m a Jew. This happened to my people and I will fight to make sure it doesn’t happen to anyone else." An ICE officer rammed his truck into a group of Jewish protestors with Never Again in August, presumably because he had such a compelling argument against them that he slammed the gas pedal to convey it to them as quickly as possible.

Trump was literally asking "if we have the nukes, why don't we use them?" before the election but yeah, Hillary's the one who would've started a nuclear war.

I think sometimes it's funny to see what these people read and genuinely believe in their echo chambers. Like that day a far-right affiliated friend from Australia asked me "what's it like in Germany, is it really civil war there?" and I'm like wtf yeah I'm dodging heavy grenade fire every time I walk the dog. It's hilariously absurd and they get so creative with that alternate reality they make up.

It’s funny until you remember that these right wing troglodytes exist on the same plane of reality that we do in a physical sense, even if their brains are in another dimension far off in wherever, and they vote and cause awful things like Trump as President or ten uninterrupted years of Tory rule, which directly led to Brexit and all the assorted insanity that has arisen from it. The ship has LOOOONG since sailed on being able to brush aside insane conservative jibber jabber online, and it ended right around the time Trump started locking brown kids in concentration camps and people were cheering him on for it.

That ship has never been in harbour considering all the religions and ideologies since the beginning of recorded history. But it's interesting to see the human capacity for being manipulated into literally denying reality even if it is right before their eyes and on such a massive scale while in comparison things like Christian extremism in the inquisition or conquistadores or crusades, or things like Nazism or Stalinism, they're so far in the past that it becomes too abstract to really visualise how people could fall for that and support it by the millions, and now we see first hand exactly how it happens. These people knowingly and deliberately spreads stuff that is factually wrong, every single thing they say, and there isn't even any benefit in it for them, that stuff they support is extremely destructive to themselves as much as it is to others (see climate change for example, it's not like Trump supporters will be tornado proof or starvation proof or anything, or something more basic like the extreme erosion of civil rights and economic stability), and still they happily run along.

(ooc from context of thread)




Do you even know what you're talking about? What a heap of bullshit. I've stalked this sub enough from arguing with you over your last idiotic claim, but I clearly had enough after reading this.

Zionism is an ethnonationalist movement that seeks to establish a home for the Jews- that's right, but in no expense of other people. Sure, there were Arabs living in Israel, but the Zionist movement never sought to kick them from Israel, but to integrate them into the future Israeli society. Not all Jews support this movement, which I totally understand, but race traitors isn't something that's viewed upon these people (the opposite is the truth, if you take extreme orthodox sects like Naturei Karta or Satmer for example you'd hear the claims of "real Jews shouldn't settle in the Holy Land," "Modern Hebrew is blasphemy" and et cetera).




that's a definition of a country. An entity that subjugates its residents which happens to have borders, a military, an organised group of people who decide upon laws, and et cetera. There are Jewish citizens in Israel, and there are Arab, and many more. All of which are subjugated to Israeli law.




Elaborate please. What does an ethnic group wanting to go back to its ancestral homeland and to escape the hatred towards it relate in ANY WAY to what you wrote?

Jewish Voices for Peace, one of the largest Jewish Anti-Zionist groups in the world has been derided as not only virulently anti-Semitic but traitorous. The same goes for virtually any Jew who opposes the occupation of Palestinian lands.

Your entire rhetoric could be cribbed directly from the headlining speech at a Neo-Nazi rally if you replace Jew with White, although with one key distinction: Jews actually were ruthlessly dehumanized and abused throughout history, while "whites" never have been. But the fact I even have to say why ethnonationalism is bad and denying people the right to live normal lives or even fucking vote should be enough of a signifier that you're on the wrong side of history. The millisecond Palestinian and Muslim people who live in or around Israel are provided full citizenship with all the rights and benefits that brings, I'll change my mind on Israel. But with a choice between either the ultra far right Likuds or the merely very far right Blue and Whites, that's not going to happen.

Here's some food for thought: why does Richard Spencer, a Neo-Nazi, frequently praise Israel?

Back on topic: just a few days away now. Things have lightened up a bit on Corbyn but it's still looking pretty dire.