I'm glad that so many disagree with these negative views of nationalism. Great to see the U.K. and U.S. among others reclaiming theirs bit by bit.

I was getting a wee bit nervous that a trend of borderless countries might be growing in popularity across the globe, so very glad I was wrong. People seem to like to govern themselves, imagine that!

Outdated my ass, making a resurgence my friend! "Global Community" B.S. concept took a ass whipping today in the U.K. and U.S. today, wont be the last one IMO.

Outdated in the same sense as flat earth and phrenology. It's not that nobody still believes it, it's just that it is now known to be nonsense whereas it was once considered to have a valid philosophical foundation.

So, the resurgence of this belief system does not portend well, I think. You don't have to go back very far to find how viscous this philosophy makes people and how quickly it can go from completely sublimated to totally balls out crazy, just ask any of our eastern European metal brothers here.

That was at a time when the critique of the EU was much more wide spread (2003). 65% of our population are positive to membership in the EU. But lo and behold the vote on the currency doesn't seem to actually hold any value in the long run. We signed the Maastricht treaty in 1995 and apparently that binds us to introduce the euro as our currency in the future. Only Denmark and the UK negotiated exceptions to this so that they could keep their national currency. So much for the democratic process.



I just want to clarify that I don't really think it will happen but I hope it will. The populations that are most sceptical to the EU has to much to loose economically to actually leave (Greece, Romania, Italy). The French are very critical but I think there is a big process for them to actually leave. COuntries with EU sceptical governments like Poland and Hungary are mostly positive to stay members (seems like they are fine with the positives and then just ignore when the EU wants to force them into something they don't like - sort of like a rebellious teenager). I'm not well read on Austria but apparently their population is quite critical toward the EU and I think they might be one of those nations that could leave without to much trouble. They also have inspiration from the neighbouring Swiss.

At the very least a wake up call to the EU that Brussels can indeed overstep their bounds and that members have options when they do.

All right, I'll bite. In what sense, as a member of the EU, did the UK not control itself?

I'm personally quite bothered by the Scottish government's response to this. It went from "We will not be dragged out of the EU against our will" to "Leave a light on for us" pretty quickly. Oh well. Maybe the twist will come during the transition period (Westminster cooperation with an independence referendum as part of the trade deal criteria). If not, then by fuck we need new leadership. I mean, MEPs literally sang Auld Lang Syne in the chamber after approving the withdrawal agreement. How much more transparent can it get?

For a lot of Brexiters "self control" and "sovereignty" as principles are more important than real world consequences. In the UK's case they gave up a huge amount of influence and power for the idea of being free. I hope other EU countries won't fall into the same trap.

Well, any descision made in the EU parliment that effects the individual membership states is proof of this regardless of whether one likes the regulations that are passed. I think both Brexiteers and Remainers would agree that the UK today is more in control of their own country than they were as EU members. The difference being that one sees it as a positive and the other as a negative.

U.K. could not make their own trade deals
U.K. law and it courts were subservient to the EU court and it's laws
The borders of the UK were controlled from Brussels as were it's waters.

They were a country not in control of itself.

If The Scotts and the Irish break away for the U.K. as a result then so be it. They should choose their own destiny as well. But at this point in time it's simply very nice to see the U.K break free as they did. I'm rooting for a united Ireland myself.

It's not a "ideal" of being free they obtained, it's freedom. Freedom to make trade deals, to handle security matters, to control its borders and waters, to write and enforce it's own laws as it see fit too among many other things they now decided upon without the need for the EU masters in Brussel to agree.

Freedom is never a trap, the trap is giving freedom up for a bit of perceived security IMO.

FYI, almost every socialist in the world is overjoyed that the UK left the EU. They want the entire European Union destroyed.

UK were making their trade deals, with the backing of 27 allies who all had much the same interests; and, if those 27 ever requested anything UK didn't like, they had a veto. And that's after considering trade within the EU itself, pretty much the most developed system of international trade ever. There have been few countries in history with a trade position so enviable. What is the argument here? That it's outrageous the UK couldn't work some side-hustle with some third-party? This isn't about who's in control, this is about making the smart decisions which benefit your country. The UK was always in control of itself, whichever trade deal it wanted to pursue.

Regarding law, could you perhaps give an example of a case where law in the UK was overridden by EU law, and argue why this was unjust?

The borders comment is false, frankly. The UK has always been in control of its borders. What could Brussels do to overpower UK in that regard?

No it really is just an ideal. The UK is still going to have to deal with EU all the same, and they just gave up their very big seat at the table. They could make trade deals while in the EU, they could enforce their own laws and influence policy while in the EU, and they already had control of their own borders.

As reluctant as I am to defend Nicola Sturgeon, what did you expect her to do? The Scottish government’s response was basically all they could do at the moment: cheer from the sidelines as the Remainers protest (again). Another Scottish referendum isn’t going to happen for the immediate future. Brexit itself took almost four years to get done. I wouldn’t bet in it being much quicker for Scotland to separate.

Your simply wrong about what the UK controlled of their own country while in the EU. It's all there for anyone who wants to research, easy to find online.

The UK could not set up trade deals outside the EU without the EU involved as a member state.

If the EU dictates immigration numbers and policy (which they do) and strong arms the members into accepting it how does that member control it's own borders? How is the UK unable to even dictate who fishes in their waters controlling their borders?

They don't need to worry about influencing EU laws and polices if they are not controlled by said laws and polices. Why would they now worry about losing that influence? The UK economy carries clout, they have good leverage to deal with the EU now.

The UK will be fine without Brussels leading them.

Your rights, years away.

And if the UK comes thru this stronger than when they were in the EU then they might not leave at all.

If we had some steak, we could have steak and lobster, if we had some lobster.

But wouldn't it be handier if you, you know, were part of the biggest single market area in the world so you could influence laws and policies with that clout as a member invested in it's success alongside other member states that also have massive clout on the global market?

Also the UK wasn't part of Schengen so they retained full control of their borders while in the EU.

I wouldn't bother arguing with the dude. They're obviously quite convinced that they've got it all figured out and no amount of opposing evidence will change their mind. Also, they keep congratulating the US in every sentence involving Brexit, not sure what that's about. But acting like a resurgence of Nationalism is good in any way, shape, or form is 100% fucked up.

The regional divisions about Brexit leave me with some odd feelings about it. In general principle, I agree with any movement that seeks to remove an extra layer of government. So I support Brexit. But that also means I support Scottish independence, even though I strongly believe they are doing it for the wrong reasons. Leaving the UK where Scots are outnumbered about 5:1? Okay sure. But they’re okay with staying in the larger, even less representative European Union where Scots are outnumbered 55:1 So while I think Scotland would be better off in a post-European Britain, hey, if they choose to cozy up to the continent now, let them fill their boots. Democracy is what it is!

I mean, in fairness, there's a lot more internal autonomy for individual nation-states within the EU than Scotland actually enjoys re: the UK, though I understand your point in underlying principle.

There are two main points of criticism. The first is that, in the most tumultuous period in recent British history, featuring the most shambolic leadership perhaps ever seen, the figurehead of the movement has spent three years tip-toeing around the very word independence; instead focusing on 'gender issues' and campaigning - even in England - to stop Brexit. I can hardly imagine a better opportunity to drive the movement forward and it's being squandered.

The second point is related, but more to do with procedure than campaigning. We're no further forward than we were in 2014, still just asking nicely if Westminster will cooperate with us. The reason things went so smoothly back in 2011/2 is that Yes was under 30% in the polls. Cameron's government fancied a crushing win to ensure his place in the history books (exact same thing he did with the Brexit vote which, famously, backfired as Leave surprisingly won). Today, Yes is on 50% and strong favourite to win in case of a new referendum. So both May & Johnson just call the bluff and say we're not cooperating, what are you gonna do? And it seems like the Scottish government has no backup plan. They continue to play Westminster's game, acting subservient instead of as the equal partner we're constantly told that we are.

I don't know how strict you are in defining socialist but even though most left wing people in the 90's in Sweden had a healthy critique of the EU they are today perhaps the biggest supporters of it.






First point tends to only appeal to liberal minded people. For a person such as me free trade isn't necessarilly the be all, end all. I actually think it need to be regulated, albeit not in the communist sense, to take care of bigger problems such as the enviromental question.

On the border debate both sides have points. The UK definately had less control of their own borders while being members of the EU. However they had more control than other nations because of the reason you give



This has little to do with nationalism as a political ideology. It is a conflict about how open a country should be and how much, or how little, influence its own people should have over it. It can surely take on nationalistic rhetoric at times but the conflict itself isn't nationalism vs anything that opposes nationalism.

To me it seems like the most prominent critique of the EU come from the extreme left (not the mainstream socialists discussed above), the nationalistic right and the libertarian/classical liberal side. Add to that all the people in country side who might be called "conservative" (but not in the political ideological sense but more in mindset - much like the workers communities have always been even when they stood to the left politically). As such it is quite a cross over type of movement.

And remember this is a discussion board, it shouldn’t be about arguing but about discussing and thus far I think we’ve done that just fine in this thread.



Excellent post!

I'm not a libertarian so for me its not a goal in itself to remove state power. However, considering the Europe of today I do think we need to remove quite a bit of the "extra layering of government" as you put it.

Corbyn was staunchly anti-EU and only became supportive of a second referendum when pressures from inside his own party forced his hand. In fact, it's this backtracking that was the main cause of him getting rinsed in the 2019 election. The left, the real left is broadly against the EU because of its meritocratic governance with minimal democratic input from the broader populace.

Now I'm on the left and I disagree with Corbyn on this issue but ruggles going on about the EU being socialist or communist grinds my gears even more than usual. It's peak neolib, nothing left about it.

Well you should let it go because it is part of Ruggles' ideology that the EU = communism, and absolutely no facts about the EU are ever going to penetrate that. You can't convince everyone with the truth, sadly.

Yes, and the left in general was also highly critical of the free trade type econimic politics as well as the wage dumping that would hurt the national workers. But of course the general left has morphed into more and more acceptance of liberal economic systems over tha past 30-40 years or so.

But of course depending on where you stand you will interpret the EU differently and give it different labels based on what you think is bad. A classical liberal will call it socialist and point to the redistribution politics and the internationalism and more state control. The old left will call it liberal because of the free marked talk and, as you say, meritocratic tendencies. The ethno-nationalist right will call it communist, authorotarian and internationalist in that they see it supporting the war on european culture and heritage. And on we go with different views.

I don't think the EU is clearly just one or the other. It is however clearly a structure meant to centralize political power (whatever that political power may be - and I'm sure it has, and will, change with time).

aaaaaaaaand we're off...

I wouldn't be surprised if either side put that up. If it actually is a Brexiteer it would be on a racist and "we won now we dictate the rules" type of thing. If it was put up by a Remainer it could be a way to further the division by painting the other side as despicable. It sort of reminds me of this:

https://whdh.com/news/islam-is-right-ab ... inchester/

Allthough that one was more intricate since it could be read two ways. Either as an actual statment from an islamic perspective or as a way to critique Islam.

Two votes for leaving, the seconded even louder than the first that the UK wanted out. Thank God that majority of the people in UK have the courage to rule their own destiny unlike some on here. Now hopefully they can start to shake off some of that nasty socialism that bogs them down.

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Desire for a standing armed forces that supersede the command of the national armed forces of the member states

The EU moved from a economic union to a whatever you want to term it now. They fact that flying a mini Union Jack is reason enough to be booted out of the room is all you need to know to understand their desire for the EU to replace the nation status of the member states. Glad they got a boot up their ass recently.

Yeah, the EU is socialist, that why it's based on breaking down trade barriers and establishing a common market within its borders.

The EU is much more complex than to label it socialist, liberal or anything else. It is something in itself. But RugglesTx is right about the stanchly anti-national stance the EU has taken. Lolpah is also right in pointing out the liberal parts of the project - free market and free movement of people. It is however wrong to say theat the EU at large is either staunchly socialist or liberal.

Getting a good laugh out of the non-British people in here telling us how great Brexit is and that the rise of right-wing nationalism in the UK is a good thing. Fucking Hell.

Browning your shirt (not to mention your nose) and combatting against your own class interests to own the libs.

Yeah, these people are just weird. Somehow being as obsequious to authority as possible translates to sticking it to the man? I've seen on multiple trump supporting forums MAGA guys one upping each other bragging about their devotion to Trump by saying they would literally let Trump fuck their wife/girlfriend. Voluntary cuckoldom to own the libs. Cuck is their ultimate insult and getting cuckolded their greatest fear! These people are weird! I'm gonna go on a limb and assume that Britain has conservative weirdos who are equally as loopy as ours, but if any brits would like to give an insider account of the situation that'd be much appreciated.

I was referring to the socialism in the UK.

You know the kind of socialism and govt interference that leads to massive over reaching controls into the lives of citizens. Example, Welsh govt thinking it's their role to enact laws against spanking children. Exactly how much do those supporting this bigger and bigger govt non sense want the govt in their lives?

I've always found it weird that, when you smack around a grown man, it usually doesn't lead to any long term issues, and it is completely illegal and totally unacceptable, but if you smack around a little kid the chances of causing long term physical and psychological harm are pretty high, and that is not only legal in most places but actively encouraged by the culture. Shouldn't it really be the other way around?

A majority of British people said the same things, twice. Guess they kinda had to since some tried to ignore them the first time....

Gonna go out on a limb and say some dork from Texas doesn't actually know a damn thing about what's best for the UK, especially when he's been repeatedly shown over and over again that he's flat wrong in calling the EU a socialist apparatus because he's stuck with the brainworms that says "big government = communism", not to mention his dumbshit "nationalism is good actually" when it constantly leads to awful bullshit.

The ignore list on the forum is free, and very helpful with your sanity!

Arguments like that don’t hold water in the Internet Age, BastardHead and MegaMal. Anyone anywhere can very quickly become decently well-versed on whatever issue catches their interest in the world. Sure there are far too many people who don’t bother to learn, but still: “you’re not from here, so you don’t know jack” is outdated.

Sort of like the people who claim that one cannot critique a proffessional sports team because they cannot play as good as the players in said team themselves.

What is interesting now is that we will be able to compare the UK in the EU and independent UK. Granted we might have to give it 10 years or so to actually sink in but for all the shit slinging, from both sides, we will now actually get answers. It will be interesting to see which arguments have come true and which one were totally out there.