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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:16 pm 
 

AllHallowsEve wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
I dunno about violence, but not treating these people like they have any legitimate points is a start. They're fringe lunatics and don't deserve to be interviewed, allowed to speak on college campuses, given feature articles in big papers, had on podcasts, etc. Everyone should be rejecting their books like Milo's from publishers, turning away from advertising with them. Social media platforms should take away their pages. Website providers should shut down the sites. That's at least one way to fight it. Nobody has a problem doing this for like, ISIS cells or whatever whenever that becomes an issue - so those spouting white nationalist "blood and soil" shit should be pushed down back into the underground.

This this this

No one gives platforms to Islamic jihadists (even those who aren't terrorists) to spout their hateful trash, but somehow even mainstream publications continue to give attention and publicity to the likes of Milo. Infuriating.


LOL, comparing militant slave traders, rapists and executioners to a gay Jewish troll. Compelling.

And a paedophilia advocate who uses his platform to dox trans people. Casually forget about those?
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3987
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:30 pm 
 

caspian wrote:
Which gets back to my original idea of make them scared/keep them scared


What practical policy recommendation would you recommend to "make them scared" ?

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AllHallowsEve
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:04 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:43 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
And a paedophilia advocate who uses his platform to dox trans people. Casually forget about those?


Yeah, because all that puts him in league with people who light their enemies on fire, throw them off rooftops, decapitate them, etc. :roll:

I don’t give a fuck about Milo or the alt-right or whatever, but it’s hilarious you attack him for being a paedophile advocate when he isn’t the one killing others in the name of a religion that enshrines it.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:41 pm 
 

Are you fucking serious? While the bodies of 50+ worshipers at the hands of an alt-right fuckstick who'd agree with Milo on almost everything from a policy point of view are still warm?
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AllHallowsEve
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:04 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:24 pm 
 

Show me where Yiannopolous actually personally advocated for any kind of violence against innocent people. Then you can include him as a character in the alt-right video game you plan on blaming this shooting on.

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~Guest 282118
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8300
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:37 pm 
 

I find it very curious that you found it relevant to mention and emphasize Milo's sexuality and ethnicity over the horrendous, nonsense garbage that comes out of his mouth.

Also, maybe this is a technicism, but pedophilia is inherently violent, so him advocating for it automatically means he's okay with violence being perpetrated against innocent and vulnerable people; minors, in this case.

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Subrick
Metal Strongman

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 10167
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:39 pm 
 

AllHallowsEve wrote:
Show me where Yiannopolous actually personally advocated for any kind of violence against innocent people. Then you can include him as a character in the alt-right video game you plan on blaming this shooting on.


Google is your friend.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 743561002/

Quote:
"I can't wait for vigilante squads to start gunning journalists down on sight," the author and agitator told a reporter for the New York Observer over a text message. The news outlet, which wrote about the incident this week, was working on a feature story about a New York City restaurant that Yiannopoulos reportedly frequents.

Yiannopoulos, when asked to elaborate, told the reporter this was his "standard response," according to the Observer.

Yiannopoulos also sent a similar message to Will Sommer, a Daily Beast reporter.
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~Guest 282118
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:45 pm 
 

Oh, yeah, that as well.

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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3987
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:58 pm 
 

:lol: Yeah "Yiannopolous is the harmless kind of pedophile and did I mention he's gay and jewish" isn't merely a dumb hill to die on. It's actually a bottomless pit. You fall into those, not stand.

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Subrick
Metal Strongman

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:17 pm 
 

There is no greater oxymoron than "harmless pedophile", aside from maybe "Jewish Nazi" or "black Klansman". They do not exist. Their entire mindset is harmful simply by what it is: That they consider children to be objects of sexual desire. Milo's no different, although he's even more dangerous because of all the other insane bullshit he believes.
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Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:59 pm 
 

Jewish Nazis do indeed exist: the hacker weev is one of them.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:12 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
So what do you do about the chans?


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Trashy_Rambo
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:04 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:00 am 
 

Acrobat wrote:
caspian wrote:

I feel this, and various other far right acts of violence the last few years, do a great job of driving the point home that the best way to deal with the far right wing is with a pair of steel caps and a curb, not "rational debate" or whatever horseshit the liberals want to serve up.


I still find this to be a really troubling idea, normally pushed by people who are really keen on repeating the 1930s, and I've yet to hear a convincing argument on how escalation of violence won't resort in, ya know, more violence.

It's a complex problem and the only way we'll solve it is if we use our brains (not saying I have the answers, mind).


These people are ultra-violent regardless of what we do or don't do. Besides that, I'm pretty sure that Richard Spencer himself admitted that the punching episodes made it a lot harder for him to openly peddle his garbage. Sounds like winning to me.
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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:08 am 
 

Everflowingstream wrote:
Whole thing is depressing and the cycle isn't going to stop.


The cycle will never stop in the United States. However, New Zealand appears to be making actual attempts to keep it from happening there again. I suppose it's easier to actually do something when you aren't desensitized due to decades of gun violence and centuries of manifest destiny culture.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:17 am 
 

AllHallowsEve wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
And a paedophilia advocate who uses his platform to dox trans people. Casually forget about those?


Yeah, because all that puts him in league with people who light their enemies on fire, throw them off rooftops, decapitate them, etc. :roll:

I don’t give a fuck about Milo or the alt-right or whatever, but it’s hilarious you attack him for being a paedophile advocate when he isn’t the one killing others in the name of a religion that enshrines it.


The point is that he is a piece of shit (transphobic, anti-Islamic, etc - all things we shouldn't allow to fester in the public eye) and silencing him from Twitter and his book deal thing worked to greatly diminish his presence - you barely hear about him now. Same thing would work for alt-right Nazi types. The only point I was making was that we should not treat any ideas in that general sphere as legitimate. It comes down to businesses/publishers deciding with more discretion who to support.

https://www.thecut.com/2016/12/milo-yia ... aukee.html

Personally this was enough for me to think he deserves to die alone and forgotten in a hole a long way away. Fuck him.
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Last edited by Empyreal on Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:22 am 
 

caspian wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
There's always gonna be some kinds of places they can congregate.


Which is why you make them too scared to congregate.

To immediately bring out the big obvious example, the nazi's weren't debated out of existence. Same with Mussolini.


Deplatforming is an OK idea but the free market is fairly useless at fixing problems. All it does is create incentives for people to create new platforms to grab a heap of coin from the alt-right. In that regard, it'll never be impossible for the right wing to organise on the net. Which gets back to my original idea of make them scared/keep them scared


I'm not against beating the fuck out of them and have no sympathy for them. I just think it's a different matter entirely if you're talking about actual strategies - the violence is more of a visceral thing, an emotional response, and it's fine too. I don't care one bit what happens to them. The whole centrist "don't punch them" idea is dumb too.

edit: I do remember hearing Spencer say something about it being harder for him to go out... yep. There it is.

And yeah, I don't want to debate them - that's my whole point. I think all this opens up a whole other can of worms. Like should we just be passing laws that ban that sort of speech? And what would constitute concrete definitions of that? I don't have the answers there. Would be easy for them to get around that, too - by using other codes and whatnot.
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caspian
Old Man Yells at Car Park

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:32 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
What practical policy recommendation would you recommend to "make them scared" ?


Perhaps similar stuff to our anti bikie laws, ie "you can't wear colours in public", but police collaboration w/White Power stuff isn't exactly a huge secret; it would be poorly enforced.

So short of something that could realistically be adopted as law, I'd say the practical recommendation is see them, hit them!
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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:37 am 
 

I'm really not a fan of state-based solutions to these things, since they invariably end up being used against us.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:56 am 
 

^ That really is the main issue with all of it. It has to be more of a societal reckoning than a law really. And society is pretty fucked up right now.
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Subrick
Metal Strongman

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:11 pm 
 

The thing about these societal reckonings in the US is that progress will start to be made, and then one thing comes along that kind of negates all that progress, leading to the movement's diminished impact. Take, for example, the Me Too movement. For the first 9 months or so, it appeared that there was a real change in not just this country but the world when it comes to the blase attitude many people have/had towards sexual assault. Then Brett Kavanaugh got on the Supreme Court despite being very obviously guilty of his own sexual assault, and it seemed like every bit of progress that was made in that almost year prior was just handwaved away with one rich white guy's angry televised outburst about how much he likes beer.
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Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:29 pm 
 

Note how I said:
Morrigan wrote:
No one gives platforms to Islamic jihadists (even those who aren't terrorists) to spout their hateful trash,

And the response:
AllHallowsEve wrote:
LOL, comparing militant slave traders, rapists and executioners to a gay Jewish troll. Compelling.

a) refers to violent terrorists anyway
b) refers to Milo's identity rather than, you know, his actions and words.

Transparent as always. But what else should I expect from a persistent troll who won't go away (this is what, the 8th alt account I've banned)? Can't believe you registered this burner account 15 fucking years ago only to activate it now. How utterly pathetic. :lol:
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:33 pm 
 

Back on topic, regarding recruiting and radicalization.... more evidence of it happening:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/virginia- ... opa-member

:puke:
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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:43 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Like should we just be passing laws that ban that sort of speech? And what would constitute concrete definitions of that? I don't have the answers there. Would be easy for them to get around that, too - by using other codes and whatnot.


Sweden has laws against hate speech (more precise it is only used if its hate speech against what we would call an ethnic group not necessarily religious affiliation, sexual preference etc even if that is discussed). This law came to be basically to hinder white supremacists to spread their message (along with banning their symbols) without actually mentioning them in the law (but it only really applies to them). What has happened? They changed their symbols, they organize differently and they use other language. Basically the same type of movement but with a new packaging.

I tend to be for a more free society in regards to free speech. To reduce it doesn't combat the groups it just makes them harder to recognize (at least for those who hold little or no interest in politics). My reasoning is that if we let them say what they want to say they are easily identified and more people will know just who and what they are.

I also think that a society either has to choose a way in which they tolerate many different political views and religious communities, even the ones on the fringe. Or we have to get rid of the notion that we are tolerant and just realize that some groups are unwanted and actively combat them. Right now I feel like we (read: Sweden in particular) try to claim tolerance but at the same time act intolerant to those with whom we don't agree. So either be tolerant, for real (like I have a feeling the US is in regards to free speech) or be honest about not being tolerant and actually ban certain groups.

And of course the risk is if we are not tolerant that intolerance can be used against us (just like CCTV and alike which is fine as long as its used for catching robbers and the like but could be used for many other purposes).


And on the topic of Milo - I don't really know to who he appeals. The actual national socialists loathe him of course (for the homosexuality, the Jewish descent, the paedophilia thing and the general libertarian outlook). And of course the left wing despises him for his view on Islam and immigration. I'm not sure if his main audience might be libertarian - but I don't feel it is either. He's one of those products of the time being a huge troll (and I don't mean this in that he's not serious but that he loves to create tumult, he reaches an audience mainly online and he really doesn't hold on to any of the old foundational ideologies or anything like that).
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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:28 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Back on topic, regarding recruiting and radicalization.... more evidence of it happening:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/virginia- ... opa-member

:puke:


See, this is one of the reasons why I think the "punch all Nazis in the face" thing is not going to be the best way forward. The far right are actively grooming kids and violence against some moronic kid who fell for a bunch of easy answers isn't going to solve anything. I mean, at work I quite sometimes hear stuff that sounds like a bunch of alt right wank from kids and it's because these people do speak their language and appeal to the specific grievances of, particularly, teenage boys. Adding the perceived glamour of street fights will only go to make that more attractive to a lot of these people.
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MaleficDevilry
Anointer of the Sick

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:23 am
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Location: USA
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:40 pm 
 

I'm amazed at the "deep state" nuts trying to link Podesta being in NZ a week before the attacks. Conspiracy theorists are going off the deep end about this.

I'm happy to see only one person defending Milo, and has since gone quiet. I don't know the answer, but I wouldn't object to 8chan being wiped off the internet.

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Trashy_Rambo
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:04 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:50 pm 
 

Acrobat wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Back on topic, regarding recruiting and radicalization.... more evidence of it happening:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/virginia- ... opa-member

:puke:


See, this is one of the reasons why I think the "punch all Nazis in the face" thing is not going to be the best way forward. The far right are actively grooming kids and violence against some moronic kid who fell for a bunch of easy answers isn't going to solve anything. I mean, at work I quite sometimes hear stuff that sounds like a bunch of alt right wank from kids and it's because these people do speak their language and appeal to the specific grievances of, particularly, teenage boys. Adding the perceived glamour of street fights will only go to make that more attractive to a lot of these people.


I'm certainly not punching any dumb kids if I don't have to. Luckily, the reality of a street fight sends all but the true believers running home, in my experience.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:53 pm 
 

I don't think you really have anything to worry about there Acrobat. The people who are often the quickest to advocate violence and call for the punching of others are also the ones least likely to actually do it. Saying things like "let's go punch Nazis" and "let's make them scared", and alluding to the use of force, seems to have as much practical meaning to it as people sending their "thoughts and prayers" in the aftermath of a tragedy. There might be some people enabled by such words, but the speakers themselves rarely, if ever, act on what they say.

So long as there are governments, institutions, and powerful people enabling white supremacists and neo-Nazis, and so long as the rest of society rolls over and accepts it or even actually embraces it, then these people are never gonna be scared and they're not going to disappear.
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:05 pm 
 

caspian wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
What practical policy recommendation would you recommend to "make them scared" ?
So short of something that could realistically be adopted as law, I'd say the practical recommendation is see them, hit them!


I see. You're aware that street violence against Nazis directly led to them gaining power, right? No?

"see them, hit them" is not a policy, much less a practical one. It causes them to circle the wagons, while also turning them (however momentarily) into objects of sympathy. They count on this; they rely on it to gain recruits. I don't know what the winning solution is or if there even is one, but this "hit them/punch a Nazi" idea is best described as an emotionally-satisfying way of losing.

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caspian
Old Man Yells at Car Park

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:15 pm 
 

Derigin knows that I'm posing somewhat :P I feel like I could quite easily punch a Nazi that's sieg hailing, but you'd have to be a bit of a psycho to punch a random kid on the street with a pepe shirt on, I get that.


InnesI wrote:
I also think that a society either has to choose a way in which they tolerate many different political views and religious communities, even the ones on the fringe. Or we have to get rid of the notion that we are tolerant and just realize that some groups are unwanted and actively combat them. Right now I feel like we (read: Sweden in particular) try to claim tolerance but at the same time act intolerant to those with whom we don't agree. So either be tolerant, for real (like I have a feeling the US is in regards to free speech) or be honest about not being tolerant and actually ban certain groups.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

I know posting a wiki link and going "read this" is hardly appealing to random internet dudes. But it's a short link and describes this problem perfectly. The first sentence sums it up well enough- "The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant." Complete free speech (whatever that means- you still can't libel and slander, etc) is a shitshow that by and large only benefits the rich.


Back to my point of "make them scared", well yeah, it's an extreme solution. But middling socdems and so on have given us nothing beyond deplatforming, #lovetrumpshate and other milquetoast bullshit that has achieved nothing in the past and won't suddenly start working now. Yes Earthcubed, I'm well aware there are some vague links- although a RW judiciary (vaguely reminiscent of modern day Brazil) and a "oh we'll give them a chance" attitude played a much bigger part.

As Rambo said, it got much harder for Spencer to do his stuff once he got fucken punched. One punch did more than a few thousand earnest internet debates could've hoped to achieve.
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caspian
Old Man Yells at Car Park

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:17 pm 
 

Anyway, the best way to solve the problem is to get the false consciousness that is racism and replace it with class consciousness, but I think most sensible thinking people arrived at that conclusion years ago ;)
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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:47 am 
 

BasqueStorm wrote:
Ok, so let them vanish in time so their efforts got NOTHING more than a better society for EVERYBODY.

Fighting hate:
https://www.labour.org.nz/pm_statement_on_christchurch

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Mr Speaker,

Al salam Alaikum

Peace be upon you. And peace be upon all of us.

Mr Speaker the 15th of March will now forever be a day etched in our collective memories. On a quiet Friday afternoon a man stormed into a place of peaceful worship and took away the lives of 50 people.

That quiet Friday afternoon has become our darkest of days.

But for the families, it was more than that. It was the day that the simple act of prayer – of practising their Muslim faith and religion – led to the loss of their loved ones lives.

Those loved ones, were brothers, daughters, fathers and children.

They were New Zealanders. They are us.

And because they are us, we, as a nation, we mourn them.

We feel a huge duty of care to them. And Mr Speaker, we have so much we feel the need to say and to do.

One of the roles I never anticipated having, and hoped never to have, is to voice the grief of a nation.

At this time, it has been second only to securing the care of those affected, and the safety of everyone.

And in this role, I wanted to speak directly to the families. We cannot know your grief, but we can walk with you at every stage. We can. And we will, surround you with aroha, manaakitanga and all that makes us, us. Our hearts are heavy but our spirit is strong.

Mr Speaker, 6 minutes after a 111 call was placed alerting the police to the shootings at Al-Noor mosque, police were on the scene.

The arrest itself was nothing short of an act of bravery. Two country police officers rammed the vehicle from which the offender was still shooting. They pulled open his car door, when there were explosives inside, and pulled him out.

I know we all wish to acknowledge that their acts put the safety of New Zealanders above their own, and we thank them.

But they were not the only ones who showed extraordinary courage.

Naeem Rashid, originally from Pakistan, died after rushing at the terrorist and trying to wrestle the gun from him. He lost his life trying to save those who were worshipping alongside him.

Abdul Aziz, originally from Afghanistan, confronted and faced down the armed terrorist after grabbing the nearest thing to hand – a simple eftpos machine. He risked his life and no doubt saved many with his selfless bravery.

There will be countless stories, some of which we may never know, but to each, we acknowledge you in this place, in this House.

For many of us the first sign of the scale of this terrorist attack was the images of ambulance staff transporting victims to Christchurch hospital.

To the first responders, the ambulance staff and the health professionals who have assisted – and who continue to assist those who have been injured.

Please accept the heartfelt thanks of us all. I saw first-hand your care and your professionalism in the face of extraordinary challenges. We are proud of your work, and incredibly grateful for it.

Mr Speaker, if you'll allow, I'd like to talk about some of the immediate measures currently in place especially to ensure the safety of our Muslim community, and more broadly the safety of everyone.

As a nation, we do remain on high alert. While there isn’t a specific threat at present, we are maintaining vigilance.

Unfortunately, we have seen in countries that know the horrors of terrorism more than us, there is a pattern of increased tension and actions over the weeks that follow that means we do need to ensure that vigilance is maintained.

There is an additional and ongoing security presence in Christchurch, and as the police have indicated, there will continue to be a police presence at mosques around the country while their doors are open. When they are closed, police will be in the vicinity.

There is a huge focus on ensuring the needs of families are met. That has to be our priority. A community welfare centre has been set up near the hospital in Christchurch to make sure people know how to access support.

Visas for family members overseas are being prioritised so that they can attend funerals. Funeral costs are covered, and we have moved quickly to ensure that this includes repatriation costs for any family members who would like to move their loved ones away from New Zealand.

We are working to provide mental health and social support. The 1737 number yesterday received roughly 600 texts or phonecalls. They are on average lasting around 40 minutes, and I encourage anyone in need to reach out and use these services. They are there for you.

Our language service has also provided support from more than 5000 contacts, ensuring whether you are ACC or MSD, you are able to pass on the support that is needed, in the language that is needed. To all those working within this service, we say thank you.

Our security and intelligence services are receiving a range of additional information. As has been the case in the past, these are being taken extremely seriously, and they are being followed up.

I know though Mr Speaker, that there have rightly been questions around how this could have happened here. In a place that prides itself on being open, peaceful, diverse.

And there is anger that it has happened here.

There are many questions that need to be answered, and the assurance that I give you is that they will be.

Yesterday Cabinet agreed that an inquiry, one that looks into the events that led up to the attack on 15 March, will occur. We will examine what we did know, could have known, or should have known. We cannot allow this to happen again.

Part of ensuring the safety of New Zealanders must include a frank examination of our gun laws.

As I have already said Mr Speaker, our gun laws will change. Cabinet met yesterday and made in-principle decisions, 72 hours after the attack.

Before we meet again next Monday, these decisions will be announced.

Mr Speaker, there is one person at the centre of this act of terror against our Muslim community in New Zealand.

A 28-year-old man – an Australian citizen – has been charged with one count of murder. Other charges will follow. He will face the full force of the law in New Zealand. The families of the fallen will have justice.

He sought many things from his act of terror, but one was notoriety.

And that is why you will never hear me mention his name.

He is a terrorist. He is a criminal. He is an extremist.

But he will, when I speak, be nameless.

And to others I implore you: speak the names of those who were lost, rather than name of the man who took them.

He may have sought notoriety, but we in New Zealand will give him nothing. Not even his name.

Mr Speaker, we will also look at the role social media played and what steps we can take, including on the international stage, and in unison with our partners.

There is no question that ideas and language of division and hate have existed for decades, but their form of distribution, the tools of organisation, they are new.

We cannot simply sit back and accept that these platforms just exist and that what is said on them is not the responsibility of the place where they are published. They are the publisher. Not just the postman. There cannot be a case of all profit no responsibility. This of course doesn’t take away the responsibility we too must show as a nation, to confront racism, violence and extremism. I don’t have all of the answers now, but we must collectively find them. And we must act.

Mr Speaker, we are deeply grateful for all messages of sympathy, support and solidarity that we are receiving from our friends all around the world. And we are grateful to the global Muslim community who have stood with us, and we stand with them.

Mr Speaker, I acknowledge that we too also stand with Christchurch, in a devastating blow that this has been to their recovery. I acknowledge every member of this House that has stood alongside their Muslim community but especially those in Canterbury as we acknowledge this double grief

As I conclude I acknowledge there are many stories that will have struck all of us since the 15th of March.

One I wish to mention, is that of Hati Mohemmed Daoud Nabi.

He was the 71-year-old man who opened the door at the Al-Noor mosque and uttered the words ‘Hello brother, welcome’. His final words.

Of course he had no idea of the hate that sat behind the door, but his welcome tells us so much – that he was a member of a faith that welcomed all its members, that showed openness, and care.

I have said many times Mr Speaker, we are a nation of 200 ethnicities, 160 languages. We open our doors to others and say welcome. And the only thing that must change after the events of Friday, is that this same door must close on all of those who espouse hate and fear.

Yes the person who committed these acts was not from here. He was not raised here. He did not find his ideology here, but that is not to say that those very same views do not live here.

I know that as a nation, we wish to provide every comfort we can to our Muslim community in this darkest of times. And we are. The mountain of flowers around the country that lie at the doors of mosques, the spontaneous song outside the gates. These are ways of expressing an outpouring of love and empathy. But we wish to do more.
We wish for every member of our communities to also feel safe.

Safety means being free from the fear of violence.

But it also means being free from the fear of those sentiments of racism and hate, that create a place where violence can flourish.

And every single one of us has the power to change that.

Mr Speaker on Friday it will be a week since the attack.

Members of the Muslim community will gather for worship on that day.

Let us acknowledge their grief as they do.

Let’s support them as they gather again for worship.

We are one, they are us.

Tatau tatau

Al salam Alaikum

Weh Rahmat Allah

Weh Barakaatuh

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/22/broken-hearted-but-not-broken-al-noor-imams-christchurch-speech-in-full

Spoiler: show
Brothers and sisters in Islam, brothers and sisters in humanity, brothers and sisters in New Zealand. Last Friday I stood in this mosque and saw hatred and rage in the eyes of the terrorist, who killed and martyred 50 people, wounded 42 and broke the hearts of millions around the world.

Today, from the same place, I look out and see the love and compassion in the eyes of thousands of fellow New Zealanders and fellow human beings from across the globe that fill the hearts of millions more who are not with us physically but in spirit.

This terrorist sought to tear our nation apart with an evil ideology that has torn the world apart. But, instead, we have shown that New Zealand is unbreakable. And that the world can see in us an example of love and unity. We are broken-hearted but we are not broken. We are alive. We are together. We are determined to not let anyone divide us.

We are determined to love one another and to support each other. This evil ideology of white supremacy did not strike us first, yet it has struck us hardest. The number of people killed is not extraordinary but the solidarity in New Zealand is extraordinary.

To the families of the victims, your loved ones did not die in vain. Their blood has watered the seeds of hope. Through them, the world will see the beauty of Islam and the beauty of our unity. Do not say of those who have been killed in the way of Allah that they are dead. They are alive, rejoicing with their Lord.

They were the best of us, taken from us on the best of days, in the best of places. And performing the best of actions. They are not just martyrs of Islam but they are martyrs of this nation, New Zealand.

Our loss of you is a gain to New Zealand’s unity and strength. Your departure is an awakening not just for our nation but for all humanity. Your martyrdom is a new life for New Zealand and a chance of prosperity for many. Our assembly here, with all the shades of our diversity, is a testament of our joint humanity. We are here in our hundreds and thousands unified for one purpose – that hate will be undone and love will redeem us.

We are taught by our prophet, Mohamed, that you can never truly show gratitude to the almighty God without thanking your fellow man.

To the people of New Zealand, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your tears. Thank you for your haka. Thank you for your flowers. Thank you for your love and compassion.

To our prime minister, thank you. Thank you for your leadership. It has been a lesson for the world’s leaders. Thank you for holding our families close and honouring us with a simple scarf. Thank you for your words and tears of compassion. Thank you for being one with us.

Thank you to the New Zealand government and to all the wonderful people who have shown us that we matter and are not forgotten.

Thank you to our police force and front-line services. You put our lives before your own every day.

Thank you to the neighbours who opened their doors to save us from the killer. Thank you to those who pulled over their cars to help us. Thank you to those who brought us food and helped us when we found it difficult to stand.

Thank you, thank you, New Zealand. Thank you for teaching the world what it means to love and care.

To my brothers and sisters, those who are here today, to perform the weekly Friday prayer, thank you for coming together once again. It is easy to feel lost after the trauma you and I experienced. But the promise of Allah made to us is true. Give glad news to the patient, those [who], when afflicted, say ‘to Allah we all belong, and to him we shall return’. These are those upon whom God’s mercy descends.

Thank you for your strength and your forgiveness. Thank you for your anger that is restrained and for your mercy that is overflowing. Thank you for your steadfastness and standing tall when others would fall. Thank you.

Islamophobia kills. Muslims have felt its pain before. It has killed people in Canada and it was used against us in Norway and against innocent people in the UK, USA, and other countries around the world.

Islamophobia is real. It is a targeted campaign to influence people to dehumanise and irrationally fear muslims. To fear what we wear, to fear the choice of food we eat, to fear the way we pray and to fear the way we practice our faith. We call upon governments around the world including New Zealand and the neighbouring countries to bring an end to hate speech and the politics of fear.

The martyrdom of 50 people and the injury of 42 did not come overnight, it was the result of the anti-Islamic and anti-Muslim rhetoric of some political leaders, media agencies and others.

Last week’s event is proof and evidence to the entire world that terrorism has no colour, has no race, and has no religion.

The rise of white supremacy and right-wing extremism is a great global threat to mankind and this must end now.

I want to take this opportunity to thank my Muslim and non-Muslim brothers and sisters for attending today and I would like also to thank our international guests who are with us and have come to our support and aid in these difficult times.

Oh Allah, have mercy upon us all. Oh Allah, have mercy upon those who were massacred last week. Oh Allah, grant to them the highest level of paradise. Oh Allah grant to the injured a speedy recovery and grant to the families of the victims patience. Oh Allah, grant our nation and country New Zealand peace, security, and protect it and its people from all evils. Oh Allah, grant to the entire world peace, security, and prosperity. Oh Allah, protect New Zealand, Oh Allah, protect New Zealanders and the world.

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
Everflowingstream wrote:
Whole thing is depressing and the cycle isn't going to stop.

The cycle will never stop in the United States. However, New Zealand appears to be making actual attempts to keep it from happening there again. I suppose it's easier to actually do something when you aren't desensitized due to decades of gun violence and centuries of manifest destiny culture.

https://twitter.com/keithboykin/status/1108559359607521282

Jacinda Arden - New Zealand Prime Minister wrote:
Today I am announcing that New Zealand will ban all military-style semi-automatic weapons.

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schizoid
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:47 am 
 

Amazing what can happen in a country where government isn't corrupted by industry lobbyists to the core, huh?
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:08 pm 
 

Yep. Incredibly telling that even the big organization of NZ hunters backed the new legislation. Head-spinning stuff for an American.
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