Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:28 pm 
 

The books that were written were covered. First three more or less faithfully, except the books have a much larger cast of characters that are understandably missing from the show. or combined with other characters. Books 4 & 5 are covered mainly theme-wise, and not all that precisely.

It's probably the biggest open secret in Westeros, or biggest suspicion at least, that Martin stopped writing so the showrunners could do what they wanted in the last few seasons without a lot of book comparisons. Martin's in a great position now - he can fix the ending.
_________________
Metalheads never get old. We just become legendary.

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9692
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:12 pm 
 

The biggest tragedy is to see such an amazingly crafted and compelling story, full of complex and interesting character, being brought to life on screen through talented actors and beautiful cinematography... and be completely ruined by this abominable writing.

My thoughts on the finale... well I've ranted a lot elsewhere and feel lazy right now so I'll just link to this (this doesn't even really go into the nonsense about Bran):

http://time.com/5590729/game-of-thrones ... -daenerys/

Fuck D&D.

GTog wrote:
It's probably the biggest open secret in Westeros, or biggest suspicion at least, that Martin stopped writing so the showrunners could do what they wanted in the last few seasons without a lot of book comparisons. Martin's in a great position now - he can fix the ending.


This is absolute nonsense. GRRM is just slow.
_________________
Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Top
 Profile  
henkkjelle
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3837
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:09 pm 
 

GTog wrote:

It's probably the biggest open secret in Westeros, or biggest suspicion at least, that Martin stopped writing so the showrunners could do what they wanted in the last few seasons without a lot of book comparisons. Martin's in a great position now - he can fix the ending.


I hope not. That would make Martin a giant asshole. "Hey I'm gonna stop writing so the show runners can fly the show into a cliffside, disappointing millions of fans all so I can be hailed as the savior later by the much smaller amount of people that actually read my books!" I'm gonna go with the slow explanation.

Top
 Profile  
Razakel
Nekroprince

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
Posts: 5542
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:38 pm 
 

GTog wrote:
It's probably the biggest open secret in Westeros, or biggest suspicion at least, that Martin stopped writing so the showrunners could do what they wanted in the last few seasons without a lot of book comparisons. Martin's in a great position now - he can fix the ending.


This is the worst kind of bullshit and people really need to quit it with these "theories." How they ever took off in the first place is beyond me, and how so many people actually believe in them is even more baffling. GRRM has always been incredibly transparent with his readers about how slow he is and about how hard of a time he's having with Winds of Winter. Clearly he's hit roadblocks, and it's true he took a break from the book to write the bulk of Fire and Blood, but to suggest that he's stopped writing it as some kind of marketing ploy or to simply allow HBO to finish long before him is absurd. As he's always said, no one wants Winds of Winter out as badly as he does.

Speaking of transparency, this new blog post is the closest we've gotten to a legitimate update on the next books in a long time: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019 ... an-ending/

Top
 Profile  
darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4629
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:01 pm 
 

How Benioff & Weiss ever got to run a show like this is something I'll never understand. These guys aren't even hacks, they're just complete non-entities who suddenly had the keys to the biggest TV series of the decade dropped in their laps. That HBO usually gives these projects to brilliant playwrights and hotshot Hollywood directors makes this appointing all the more bewildering.
_________________
\m/ xXdArKen uR dAyXx \m/

Top
 Profile  
Razakel
Nekroprince

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
Posts: 5542
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:29 pm 
 

Well I'm sure HBO's perfectly happy with them for helming what turned out to be the network's most successful series ever.

Top
 Profile  
Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3713
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:04 pm 
 

What I'm gathering from this thread and others is that my prediction from two years ago that the last scene would be a Jon-Dany baby stabbing her toys while masturbating did not come to fruition, though it would have arguably been an improvement.

Oh and in case anyone is wondering how the cast took it:
Spoiler: show
Image


:lol: that actually looks like the makings of a good parody :lol:
_________________
iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

Top
 Profile  
Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 2299
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:29 pm 
 

I never thought Martin was "slow" so to speak, OR that he deliberately stopped writing simply to help boost the TV series. Rather, I always suspected he simply lost interest in writing it.

He got so bogged down with it, there were way too many open story arcs and no idea how to close it all back together, that eventually he just, well, sort of stopped. More of a writer's block kind of thing than anything else. I don't know, but I don't think he quit working on them by design. But at the same time, with the show so popular, I don't think he felt any real pressure to jump back into finishing the last two books, either.

For the record, I was a huge fan of the books but I never got to watch much of the TV version, for the simple reason that my cable provider does not offer HBO. I actually kind of wish I HAD been able to see more of it; I've only seen clips here and there- because I was a huge fan of the books long before everyone and their grandma knew who Jon Snow and Danaerys was.

Top
 Profile  
darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4629
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:19 am 
 

I'd put down money that he'll die before he finishes the final book, some other writer will take up the mantle to finish it based off GRRM's notes and writings, everyone will hate it but place all of the blame on the new writer and just claim that GRRM would've finished it right (i.e., "my way") because that's the world we live in now.
_________________
\m/ xXdArKen uR dAyXx \m/

Top
 Profile  
Trashy_Rambo
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:04 pm
Posts: 1423
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:09 am 
 

As long as GRRM doesn't totally ruin his character arcs like D&D did I'll probably be pretty okay with it.
_________________
Reviews from The Sepulchre! Latest: Satan's Hallow - S/T

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9692
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:35 am 
 

Razakel wrote:
This is the worst kind of bullshit and people really need to quit it with these "theories." How they ever took off in the first place is beyond me, and how so many people actually believe in them is even more baffling. GRRM has always been incredibly transparent with his readers about how slow he is and about how hard of a time he's having with Winds of Winter. Clearly he's hit roadblocks, and it's true he took a break from the book to write the bulk of Fire and Blood, but to suggest that he's stopped writing it as some kind of marketing ploy or to simply allow HBO to finish long before him is absurd. As he's always said, no one wants Winds of Winter out as badly as he does.

Speaking of transparency, this new blog post is the closest we've gotten to a legitimate update on the next books in a long time: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019 ... an-ending/

Fucking THANK YOU. So sick of people parroting that bullshit slander.

Look,I have a problem with GRRM too. I started those books in 2000. I've waited 19 years for Dany and Tyrion to even MEET and we're not there yet. 19 years is over half my entire lifespan. Am I upset that GRRM is so damn slow? Yes. Do I get annoyed when he starts side-projects or writes blog posts about football? Yes.

But all those whack theories about how he's secretly waiting for the right marketing moment, or he "lost interest", or he's just cashing in, etc. are ridiculous. He has (not-a)blogged many times about this and there's zero reason to not take what he says at face value.

darkeningday wrote:
How Benioff & Weiss ever got to run a show like this is something I'll never understand. These guys aren't even hacks, they're just complete non-entities who suddenly had the keys to the biggest TV series of the decade dropped in their laps. That HBO usually gives these projects to brilliant playwrights and hotshot Hollywood directors makes this appointing all the more bewildering.

They correctly guessed R+L=J. :(
_________________
Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5388
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:11 am 
 

I'm a bit on the fence here with GRRM. I've also been in the same boat where you don't want to write something and you're procrastinating about it, but you also don't want to admit it and when people ask you about it you reassure them (both for their's and your own sake and sanity) that you really do want to work on it and that you really do want to finish it. I don't think he's waiting for some marketing moment or cashing in, or something silly like that, but I do believe he has lost interest and that it's entirely possible he no longer has the passion for the main story as much as he did before. He obviously still loves the world he created, but I question whether he is still in love with the story he started with this particular series of books. If he lives long enough, he may probably reluctantly finish them, but I don't doubt that he isn't as driven as he once was before. Driven people don't sit on their work.

I also do think that the show has impacted him and his interest in the series, even if he won't readily, honestly admit it. He never seemed particularly keen on having his work adapted to television, but for whatever reason he accepted that offer. What we do know is that offer included the premise that he would complete another book by the end of Season 4, which he did not do and I'm sure HBO and the producers were unhappy about. It's also reasonable to suspect that neither GRRM, HBO or the producers expected the show to become the hit it became, or for the show to become such a pop culture phenomenon.

That can be trying on a writer like GRRM because it ends up manipulating the story and its characters in ways you may not have wanted; for instance, you can imagine from this point on that every time a person picks up the books and reads them, they'll be imagining the actors from the show, speaking in their voices, with the mannerisms they portrayed on the show for those characters. This is a problem that faced Harry Potter, and is clear in the series' later books when JK Rowling started, I think inadvertently, painting the characters with the same brush as the movies. I don't think GRRM will end up doing that, but I don't doubt that the prospect of having his characters essentially "stolen" from him before he was finished with them, and having them manipulated by the show in ways he probably didn't intend, has impacted his interest in the series. He never seemed like the type of author that wanted to write what other people expected of him, but now he can't avoid people constantly questioning him on it. In lieu of producers badgering him for more and more material to build a television series off of, he now has numerous fans - many of them new - who will want him to do things their way, in a way that seems more logical from a show watcher's point of view. Must be trying. Must be absolutely frustrating knowing your characters, your story, will be forever tainted in the minds of readers by the fingers of producers, actors and others playing around with them. I wonder if he regrets the TV show.

I guess, my feelings on this, I don't think we're gonna get the books anytime soon. If we do, I'd be impressed. But if we don't, I wouldn't be surprised. It would be nice to have closure - proper closure - when it comes to this story but, well, I am rather doubtful we'll get it at this point. The only closure we'll probably ever have is the show and that's an utterly depressing thought.

EDIT: It's clear, IMO, that the producers also lost interest in the series. They were able to complete it half-assedly, but D&D seem to be at their best when they're just adapting existing material. They likely assumed that there would be more existing material in the future when they first started the project. That was a risk they took. Halfway through the series it turned out that wasn't possible, and they had to shift to actually completing the story without existing material which is something I doubt they had the drive to do. Considering that, and the fact that unlike GRRM they are required to complete the project due to imposed timelines, you end up getting a half-assed conclusion with really shitty writing that does a disservice to the fans and people who worked on it. All around I think this is a good case study on how trying to adapt an unfinished series can go wrong.
_________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

R.I.P. Diamhea 1987-2018
Live young, die free. Gone, but not forgotten.

Top
 Profile  
GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:30 pm 
 

Be GRRM apologists all you want. The fact remains that he's been plenty busy, publishing several things over the past few years. So he's not slow, he's just not writing the main story. He's been writing prequels and a history of the Targaryens and so forth, as well as some non-Westeros things. It is not even a small stretch to suppose that GRRM and HBO agreed at some point not to interfere with each other.

Was there some grand cynical conspiracy to suppress The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring? Not at all. Was there an agreement to let the highly rated and award winning show play itself out so the highly popular and award winning author wouldn't pressure himself into a heart attack? That seems like a pretty easy call.
_________________
Metalheads never get old. We just become legendary.

Top
 Profile  
darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4629
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:27 pm 
 

:lol: "GRRM apologists." He took 11 years for his last two books, you seriously think the final two would be written faster? I mean really now.
_________________
\m/ xXdArKen uR dAyXx \m/

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5388
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:39 pm 
 

It's already been 8 years since the last book. He's also 70 years old now. He isn't getting any younger!
_________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

R.I.P. Diamhea 1987-2018
Live young, die free. Gone, but not forgotten.

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9692
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:25 am 
 

GTog wrote:
Be GRRM apologists all you want. The fact remains that he's been plenty busy, publishing several things over the past few years. So he's not slow, he's just not writing the main story. He's been writing prequels and a history of the Targaryens and so forth, as well as some non-Westeros things. It is not even a small stretch to suppose that GRRM and HBO agreed at some point not to interfere with each other.

Was there some grand cynical conspiracy to suppress The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring? Not at all. Was there an agreement to let the highly rated and award winning show play itself out so the highly popular and award winning author wouldn't pressure himself into a heart attack? That seems like a pretty easy call.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. And calling people who call you out on your ignorant nonsense "GRRM apologists" is hilarious. D&D themselves have said they hoped for the novels to catch up and worried about running out of material to adapt.

"GRRM is not slow". Seven hells. :lol:

When he took 5 years to release a book which was actually HALF of what he had planned, and then 6 years to release the other half, and the next part is still nowhere near being released 8 years after that, "GRRM is not slow" is some galaxy-brain level of take.
_________________
Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Top
 Profile  
CoconutBackwards
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 558
Location: Walled Lake, MI
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 8:37 pm 
 

All I wanna say is I never should’ve watched this. I came in at what most people agree was a complete botched job of the show (season 8) and I regret what I’ve seen, because I’m sure some of it is true and will spoil the books if they’re ever finished.

I should’ve just waited for the next book, because from what I’ve seen, I don’t need a Westeros world without George R.R. Martin.
_________________
GTog:
"So, you want to sign songs about your great and glorious invisible cloud daddy? Go right ahead. You have whole tax-free buildings to do that in. I am not only not listening, I am intentionally going out of my way to ignore you."

Top
 Profile  
aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 1894
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 3:32 am 
 

I know clickbait vids are frowned upon (at best) in the hallowed halls of the Encyclopaedia Metallum, but this one made me roar:
Youtube: show
_________________
the devil is very old indeed, we sit with a few stories to tell

Top
 Profile  
Belial
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:39 pm
Posts: 866
Location: Tunisia
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 9:21 pm 
 

CoconutBackwards wrote:
All I wanna say is I never should’ve watched this. I came in at what most people agree was a complete botched job of the show (season 8) and I regret what I’ve seen, because I’m sure some of it is true and will spoil the books if they’re ever finished.

I should’ve just waited for the next book, because from what I’ve seen, I don’t need a Westeros world without George R.R. Martin.

This is exactly what I thought. Of course there will still be "surprises" and "twists" in the books, but I'm afraid some of the big points, particularly with Daenerys, will be more of a better explanation or development of what happened in the show, rather than being that AND some kind of a twist that we get to go through firsthand.
On the bright side though, I'm also guessing the ending will really be "bittersweet" as GRRM said. The show ending was Disney fairytale stuff. I don't get what's supposed to be "bitter" about it. King's Landing destroyed? They never made us care about the people in it anyway (except while trying to force this idea in the last couple seasons). Daenerys turning evil? It just doesn't work they way they did, in two episodes.

Even the the parts I liked in this season lose their value with each view. I've seen the episode the Long Night like 4 times now, despite all of its flaws I still enjoyed it immensely for its awesome imagery and battles. At the same time it gets increasingly more... bland whenever one of those "oh shit this character has 50 wights on them they're going to die - oh nevermind someone killed one of the wights so they're ok" came.
_________________
http://www.last.fm/user/Belial_

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9692
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:32 am 
 

aloof wrote:
I know clickbait vids are frowned upon (at best) in the hallowed halls of the Encyclopaedia Metallum, but this one made me roar:
Youtube: show

This is fine and not clickbait, just a funny video. Clickbait are just videos with shitty/misleading titles that are usually content-free.
_________________
Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Top
 Profile  
Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 835
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 12:20 pm 
 

My oldest sister is a major fantasy buff and she bought me Game Of Thrones (the first book) for a New Year's gift in 1997, telling me "this is the shit". I've been following every book as it was published since then. At one point, when we all realized the series is going to go past the books, I made the conscious choice to keep watching the show and put the blame on Martin for being so damn slow.

I thought the TV show would be great in its adaptation based on changes like Tywin's introduction with that stag, the Arya-Tywin or the Arya-Hound scenes, the Jaqen scenes and so on, in short I trusted them to get the essence of the story and present it beautifully.

Of course they didn't and I think most people agree that D&D really did not handle the story well, and for all I can tell, the primary reasons being a. they got bored and b. they catered to the masses of casual TV viewers with classic TV tropes instead of the established, special Game of Thrones twists. Or c. they are fucking idiots.

I do believe all the major plot twists in the final seasons will be identical in the books, ie Varys will betray Dany, Tyrion will betray Varys (which based on their relationship in the books will be way more important and would have a stronger impact if we hadn't know the plot), the dead will be finished in that battle, Dany will destroy King's Landing, Jon will kill Dany, Jamie dying with Cersei, the Hound and so on. I actually find every plot twist consistent and satisfactory for the entire series (more or less) and I am sure I would enjoy them as I did plot twists in previous books. But of course the surprise is gone. Which means the books have lost 50% (at least) of their impact. I, as before, blame Martin for that. He WAS incredibly slow. I am not sure I can say for sure WHY he was so slow, I did get the feeling that he lost his excitement over the story around books 4 and 5 and that means that he had trouble finishing the book and that he preferred other jobs. Either way, I do not blame Martin for the very sloppy writing of the last seasons, that is entirely on HBO and D&D.

I am also quite certain that whoever thinks the show was well written in the final seasons as opposed to "extremely and sloppily rushed" is either a fanboy trying to convince himself more than anyone else or just silly, whose opinions on TV writing should not be taken seriously. I will include stylistic choices like Jamie and Cercei looking pristine after tons of bricks smashed their bodies. For a show notable for its gore and (hyper)realism that felt like children's theater. I would find the scene way more effective if Tyrion stood on top of two misshapen bodies that somehow resemble his siblings.

I wish he will just finish the books. I am not in a rush. I don't plan to re-watch the show until those books are out. If it's some years from now that might be better to detach myself from all the impressions I have from the TV show.
_________________
42

Vic's Dungeon:

The Best of 2017

Best of 2016- The sloppiest list on the web

Remember the Fallen: Paul Baloff (Exodus), Keith Deen (Holy Terror)

Top
 Profile  
rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 9027
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 12:53 pm 
 

Dungeon_Vic wrote:

I am also quite certain that whoever thinks the show was well written in the final seasons as opposed to "extremely and sloppily rushed" is either a fanboy trying to convince himself more than anyone else or just silly, whose opinions on TV writing should not be taken seriously.


I am quite certain this is bullshit.
_________________
Hexenkraft - diabolical cyberpunk darksynth
Cosmic Atrophy - extradimensional death metal

Top
 Profile  
Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9692
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 12:34 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Dungeon_Vic wrote:

I am also quite certain that whoever thinks the show was well written in the final seasons as opposed to "extremely and sloppily rushed" is either a fanboy trying to convince himself more than anyone else or just silly, whose opinions on TV writing should not be taken seriously.


I am quite certain this is bullshit.

Nah, it sounds really accurate.

There is no defending some of the abominable, nonsensical writing in the last season. There just really isn't.
_________________
Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Top
 Profile  
SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 631
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 6:01 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
rexxz wrote:
Dungeon_Vic wrote:

I am also quite certain that whoever thinks the show was well written in the final seasons as opposed to "extremely and sloppily rushed" is either a fanboy trying to convince himself more than anyone else or just silly, whose opinions on TV writing should not be taken seriously.


I am quite certain this is bullshit.

Nah, it sounds really accurate.

There is no defending some of the abominable, nonsensical writing in the last season. There just really isn't.

Agreed. Which is why it blows my mind that individuals like Stephen King are extremely supportive of the final season. He went as far as saying something along the lines that the outrage was mostly because of the fact that no one wanted the show to even end. Which is not the first time I’ve heard this sentiment, but it’s just fucking stupid. I’ve never heard anyone complaining over the fact that the show was ending. And again, from Stephen King. You’d think if there was anyone who would complain about the terrible writing it would be him!

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Svarthavid and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group