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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:06 pm
Posts: 4484
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:47 am 
 

Thexhumed wrote:
Great episode, but I have a copuple of questions:

a) Why did Bran fly as a raven, what purpose did that serve?

b) How could Arya infiltrate the white generals? Did she possess one of them?

c) What influence did Melisandre had on Arya with that final comment on the blue eyes thing? Did she just give her the idea of possessing a white general or give her some sort of power?


a) we don't know, but I'd assume Bran was trying to let someone know something, maybe Cersei but that seems weird.

b) who says she did? Maybe she snuck past em. As someone on reddit said, she's a master assassin after all. Also from reddit:
reddit wrote:
First episode this season. Jon at the Godswood. Arya appears. “how did you sneak up on me”




crazy episode, one of the most stressful things I've ever seen on TV. Arya for the Iron Throne 2020.
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SuperVeji4
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Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
Posts: 648
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:55 am 
 

Well paint me disappointed.

The moment Melisandre randomly waltzed into Winterfell I knew I was going to have problems with this episode, especially considering that her appearance was truly inconsequential to what eventually unfolded. For example, her ability in creating fire had become arguably obsolete given the fact that our heroes have two goddamn fire-breathing dragons. Case in point, the part when she's praying to the Lord of Light to ignite the flames for the trenches. I know it was supposed to be dramatic and intense, but the whole time I was thinking, "why in the hell isn't Jon simply igniting the trenches with his fire-breathing dragon?!" (Keep in mind Jon is perched on top of Winterfell with his dragon at this moment). Or when she ignited the Dothraki swords into flaming swords. Sure it looked cool, but it was completely pointless given the fact that they died immediately after. And at the end of it all, Melisandre simply....dies. For no reason. I feel now, in hindsight, her appearance in Season 7 should've been her send-off. It would've solidified her "mysterious" nature: a mysterious woman with mysterious powers who has a mysterious past who simply disappears mysteriously from Westoros, never to be seen again. It may have been cliche to go that route, but quite frankly I much prefer that hypothetical ending than having her pointlessly reappear in this season.

The thing that kept bothering me about this episode was simply how confusing it was. Everything was dark and misty, and they used the dreaded shaky cam effect, so it was quite hard to follow what was going on. Perhaps that was the point, perhaps they wanted us, the viewers, to be lost in the "fog of war," but goddamn was it irritating. It became especially irritating when you kept thinking characters were dying. There were constant moments of, "well shit, I guess that character just died," only to later see that character a few minutes later walking and fighting as if nothing had happened. Two specific examples I could think of was with Brienne and Sam. Beric Dondarrion's death was especially hilarious for it had me like, "Oh shit the wights got him! He's being stabbed to death!.....Wait no, he broke free and survived somehow.....Ha! Syke! He dies immediately after anyways!"

Another thing was the constant stupid decision-making of the characters. As Five_Nails had already mentioned, why in the hell did they send the Dothraki hoard into the darkness? Wouldn't it have made more sense if Jon and Dany had gone forward first with their dragons to whittle down the dead army with flames, while also lighting up the battlefield for the Winterfell armies? Or when they had the non-combatants hide in the crypts. I know this was mentioned before but I justified it by thinking that the White Walkers could only resurrect individuals who had recently died. I mean, those corpses in the Winterfell crypts have been dead for years, what use are they if they are basically near dust? But nope, I guess I was just doing a pointless mental gymnastics routine and the characters truly were that stupid. Or how about that moment when Dany and her dragon land in the middle of the battlefield surrounded by the dead. They were literally just standing there until the wights began to climb on top of the dragon, the entire time in which I was screaming, "fucking fly you idiots!" Which of course the dragon eventually does fly, but only after Dany was knocked off and the dragon was infested with wights. And of course what I already mentioned with Jon lighting the trenches with his dragon.

As for the final moments with the Night King, all I can say is: how anti-climatic. Constant build-up on the dangers of the dead, the constant build-up of how powerful the Night King is, and the constant desire to know more about the nature of the White Walkers (perhaps other viewers were satisfied with what we were given, but I guess I wanted, well, more), only for it to all end with one single strike, and from fucking Arya of all people. I fucking loved her but I just didn't think she would be the one to save the day. And of course Bran dosen't do shit as always (Couldn't Theon have been spared of his death had they had just waited a few more minutes for Araya to appear? I'm pretty sure Bran is laughing his ass off right now...).

All this, of course, serves as a reminder on how heartbreaking it is that the writers were forced to end the show given how expensive it is. And you can tell since it all feels so goddamn rushed, hence the bad writing. Again, fucking disappointed.

Derigin wrote:
So anyone else not really looking forward to Cersei vs. Dany, Jon and their army of 25 people?

I think the thing that sorta bothers me the most about this is that it went from a show with the idea that infantile court politics means nothing when the real threat is coming, but now that the real threat is gone it's ending with "jk the only thing that matters are silly court politics." Feels a little cheap, but maybe that was the point. I dunno.

I agree with all this. Especially, once again, how they built up on how dangerous the dead were throughout the entire fucking series. With that kind of build-up it would've only made sense that the White Walkers would've ended up being the final ultimate villains of the series. Your theory involving the Night King traveling to King's Landing to wreak havoc would've made this so, but unfortunately that's just another reminder for myself to never read fan-theories, for sometimes they are far better than what eventually unfolds.

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Bishop_Drugsalot
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:42 am
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:55 am 
 

Cool and entertaining watch for sure but made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Winter has come, Bran is the key except that he does nothing. Remember the prophecy except that it is meaningless. Sam takes a nap in the midst of combat because why not, plot armor is donned. Everyone in the courtyard becomes the greatest fighter of all time and fends off a 100 zombies at a time. Arya works for the Institute and teleports into the Night King's neck.
Drogon could have eaten the NK, at least try it.

Also not the best battle strategy, having a shitload of infantry out there with shitty trench and a no actual archers.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 11382
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:10 am 
 

Heh, I dunno, I really liked this episode a lot. At first I was slightly irritated with the kind of dumb strategy, but once the battle actually began I was glued to the screen the whole time. Watching the Dothraki swords wink out one by one in the darkness was goddamn terrifying, and once the actual waves of dead started crashing into the lines of Unsullied, the feeling of "there is absolutely no way The Heroes are going to survive this" really kicked in. I do agree that there were a few too many shots of important characters seemingly getting overwhelmed/mauled/stabbed by the dead only to survive anyway (mainly Sam, Brienne and Jaime). I think they could've done a better job of filming those scenes to make it more apparent these characters were getting pushed back to the ropes but weren't actually getting offed in each of those scenes.

The Night King surviving a sustained direct dragonfire blast was pretty scary shit. I liked the dragon stuff in general; the Night King's sort of fog of war shroud of frozen dust or whatever the fuck was really scary, and the way it was used to take the dragons out of much of the fight was an unexpected tactic. I liked the action breakup in the center part for Arya's stealth mission. I liked Melissandre, and I like that now only Arya and Gregor know whatever transpired in the tower. I do think probably Arya posed as a White Walker to get close, hence the comment about her having killed people with blue eyes.

Essentially there's no way the plot at this point was going to make this episode totally satisfying in every way, but I am actually glad my expectations were flipped upside down. Even though the Night King and all of the White Walkers and the dead are no more, I really doubt that the final three episodes are going to be political intrigue alone. As I mentioned, the necromantic leanings of Qyburn have been a plot thread for far too long now to just be a loose end in need of tying up.

Also: Bronn.
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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
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Location: Norway
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:12 pm 
 

It was alright. It got very dark on screen, which I guess is to be expected given the circumstances, but it made it difficult to see what was going on.

I still don't understand why they met them outside the castle. They know that the NK is after Bran, so why give up a huge defensive advantage? Some have said that they wanted to avoid a siege were the dead just stood outside Winterfell and starved them out, but they could have done that anyway after the armies retreated inside the walls in the episode.

The Dothraki charge was laughably bad. It looked nice, but it was an obvious way to just get rid of one element of the army to simplify it. The Dothraki are mainly horseriders, so it makes sense that they use that, but they should have been in a reserve to charge from the side or something. They just charged into darkness.

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OzzyApu
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:11 am
Posts: 10359
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:37 pm 
 

Watched it and enjoyed it quite a bit. Keep in mind I never read the books so I'm just going off what they give me.

Mel showing up I did not expect. She kinda just showed up out of the blue, and despite being in the south last season she appeared from the north in front of the front line. Yes it was chaotic, extremely hazy and foggy. Some questionable tactics, specifically the Dothraki charge at the beginning, but I'm assuming that was to bait the dead out (as if they needed any bait). Horses aren't very good in static positions so they might've thought a shock cav-charge would have done some lasting damage to hold them back? Didn't work out at all.

SuperVeji4 wrote:
For example, her ability in creating fire had become arguably obsolete given the fact that our heroes have two goddamn fire-breathing dragons. Case in point, the part when she's praying to the Lord of Light to ignite the flames for the trenches. I know it was supposed to be dramatic and intense, but the whole time I was thinking, "why in the hell isn't Jon simply igniting the trenches with his fire-breathing dragon?!" (Keep in mind Jon is perched on top of Winterfell with his dragon at this moment). Or when she ignited the Dothraki swords into flaming swords. Sure it looked cool, but it was completely pointless given the fact that they died immediately after. And at the end of it all, Melisandre simply....dies. For no reason. I feel now, in hindsight, her appearance in Season 7 should've been her send-off. It would've solidified her "mysterious" nature: a mysterious woman with mysterious powers who has a mysterious past who simply disappears mysteriously from Westoros, never to be seen again. It may have been cliche to go that route, but quite frankly I much prefer that hypothetical ending than having her pointlessly reappear in this season.

Jon and Dany were up in the air completely shrouded in fog at that time, remember? They had no idea what the situation on the ground was. Davos said something along the lines of "They can't see it" when he was trying to signal. At least that's how I remembered it. That might have been the initial plan but when J / D were flying over the WWs unleashed the snow storm. They couldn't tell what was even a few feet in front of them. And I chalk Mel's death to her fulfilling the purpose that she's been talking about since the beginning. She found the one who would bring an end to the long night, as much as we all might not have been expecting it to be Arya. Night King is gone, Long Night ends, her arc complete.

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Or how about that moment when Dany and her dragon land in the middle of the battlefield surrounded by the dead. They were literally just standing there until the wights began to climb on top of the dragon, the entire time in which I was screaming, "fucking fly you idiots!" Which of course the dragon eventually does fly, but only after Dany was knocked off and the dragon was infested with wights.

Yeah, this was pretty dumb. She knows she's out in the open right there, completely unprotected flanks and surrounded by undead. GTF up in the air, not sit there waiting to be overwhelmed. Which makes me wonder how the fuck Jorah ran all the way out there. How did he get passed all the undead? We might never know. Some shots were odd like how it shows 3 zombies about to attack Dany from an overhead shot, then it cuts to another scene, then it cuts back later and Dany's just fine. She took down 3 zombies when she's never used a sword before? I still expected a bit more out of it.

RIP, Ser Jorah Mormont of House Friendzone.

SuperVeji4 wrote:
All this, of course, serves as a reminder on how heartbreaking it is that the writers were forced to end the show given how expensive it is. And you can tell since it all feels so goddamn rushed, hence the bad writing.

I think HBO was more than willing to front any costs if it meant shitload more money coming in, but expenses do play a factor. I remember reading that Dave and Dave were exhausted by season 6, feeling burned out to the point of "we need to wrap this shit up now".

raumr wrote:
I still don't understand why they met them outside the castle. They know that the NK is after Bran, so why give up a huge defensive advantage? Some have said that they wanted to avoid a siege were the dead just stood outside Winterfell and starved them out, but they could have done that anyway after the armies retreated inside the walls in the episode.

They could have had a few hundred in Winterfell itself but there was no way they could fit everyone inside. They could have managed it smarter though with more soldiers inside the defensive fire ring from the start. Let's also remember that very few of these characters / people have ever fought the white walkers.
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henkkjelle
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:32 pm 
 

They should have send Jaime/Brienne/Pod/Sam off to do something else if they didn't have the heart to let any of them die during the battle. Seeing them getting hugged by groups of wights on what must have been ten different occasions and just not dying bordered on slapstick. Especially because the wights are demonstrated to be absolutely vicious and effective killers throughout the battle.

The rest of the episode was mostly fine, including Arya killing the Night King (some cool theories about that and Bran/Melisandre, although they probably won't be expanded upon)

I just wonder how they're gonna give the last three episodes any kind of gravitas. Sure Cersei and co are bad, but the Winterfell folks just literally saved humanity... I'm hoping for a good old fashioned curveball.

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Adriankat
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:54 pm
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Location: San Jose, California
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:28 pm 
 

With this episode and Hardhome, anyone else agree that Game of Thrones has the best portrayal of zombie hordes slaughtering people? Just a few seconds of agony and suffering before the screaming is shrouded in complete silence. Utterly terrifying. Makes you wonder what The Long Night was like.
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quickbeam
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:09 am
Posts: 131
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:17 pm 
 

Very disappointed in the final season so far. Possibly because I've watched every other season after it aired completely, so never needed to do this week-by-week review thing. I see the fun in discussing as it plays out, but it makes each episode seem weak under such focus.

We're almost at the end, there's so much mystery still to be explained. Yet fuck all has been explained in these 3 episodes. And this 3rd one... exhausting, depressing, and nothing much happens to make it worthwhile. Just battle. 1 hour 20 minutes was it? The only moment with electricity was when NK approached Bran, but nothing came of it. So the big threat since the first book is seemingly gone, without being explained. I'll withhold judgment for now, but are we supposed to be excited about more 'game of thrones' bollocks? Wasn't the idea of the iron throne that it didn't matter in the face of existential threat? I was all about the mythology of the white walkers, and whatever the fuck was going on with Bran - I really thought something massive would happen there.

Not to mention the myriad absurd points involving battle strategy, invincible heroes, the red woman and whatever the hell she was up to, the pointlessness of Jon; or the fact you could barely see half the show because of the lighting.

Fuck it, maybe I just like to complain. Here's hoping for better stuff next week!

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henkkjelle
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:43 pm 
 

Adriankat wrote:
With this episode and Hardhome, anyone else agree that Game of Thrones has the best portrayal of zombie hordes slaughtering people? Just a few seconds of agony and suffering before the screaming is shrouded in complete silence. Utterly terrifying. Makes you wonder what The Long Night was like.


The initial clash between the horde and the Winterfell forces was fucking terrifying with that headwave of wights and giants looming up from the darkness. Although the effect was kinda diminished further into the episode by the ridiculous amount of plot armor. Grey Worm or Tormund (or both) getting insta-killed by that wave would have added a lot to that terror. I guess Edd died, but eh....

@quickbeam

I've heard a lot of complaints about the lighting being too dark... I didn't notice anything wrong with it watching on my crappy laptop screen with normal brightness settings. It was dark in the right places though, like at the beginning when the enemy is approaching outside the gates. About Bran, Arya and the Red Woman; there are theories. And I hope they touch on it at least slightly next episode, whatever turns out to be true.

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Belial
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:39 pm
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Location: Tunisia
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:54 pm 
 

I have mixed feelings. I was totally amazed by the battle, but the story was quite disappointing.

As others have mentioned, there were just too many "oh shit that character is dead?!" to later discoved that they weren't. My first real worry was with Brienne's first fall. Dolorous Edd's death came in as a sort of warning that shit's going to be really serious and characters will dies right and left, so when I saw Brienne fall that early in the batlle I was really worried.

But my biggest disappointment though was Jon Snow following the Night King and then, well, nothing special. At first I was sure to see a duel, not expecting Jon to kill him, or anyone killing the other anyway, but at least some cool duel action between Jon, who's established as an incredible warrior, and well, the Night King. But no duel. Then when the dead stood up and surrounded Jon, and the Night King was fixing him with his gaze, I was expecting some kind of revelation, that he would talk or communicate with Jon. It seemed like all the dead everywhere stood still for a few moments. But nope, get another camera angle and show less wights, and that's it.

And then the Night King's Death. I'm not bothered at all by the death itself actually, and Arya doing it is awesome. Just think about how "legendary" that makes her. What bothered me deeply was the fact that the Night King died without dealing enough damage to us the viewers. Sure, tens of thousands died but who cares about them. The most important character that died was Jorah, I guess, and that's really nothing compared to what I was expecting. They've protected the main characters for the last few seasons, I was expecting them to pay it off now. I think they missed several opportunities to make the whole show truly memorable with this particular episode. And now what I was fearing the most is about to happen: Cersei is the big villain. Cersei will cause the deaths of more important characters than the Night King (if they're going to kill any of them now). The two dragons are still alive and I'm expecting one of them to die to scorpions.
This is the first time I truly hated the showrunners for trying to make it more of a "regular TV show." For me this was their last chance. This is the most epic battle to happen in that world in... 12 000 years? And no important characters died.

Beside all of these thoughts, I truly enjoyed the episode. The first 10 minutes were phenomenal. The dothraki charging into the darkness like that, after that moment of hope with the flames, to then disappear completely in a matter of seconds was terrifying. I was so anxious to see the army of the dead in action, but they knew how to keep the suspense and to increase it. The dothraki disappearing like that was incredibly effective at that. "If all of those dothraki vanished like that, what chance do the rest have?"

And then when the dead attacked, holy shit! It seemed like a black wall collapsing on the defenders. And the chaos afterwards was marvelous. I've seen a lot of people complain about the darkness, but seriously that made the whole thing so much enjoyable. We already had a daylight fight in Hardhome, and it was nowhere as overwhelming as this one. We're talking about the Long Night, with an army of undead who don't care about darkness and light, and total confusion and chaos is part of their "strategy." They simply rely on their numbers and charge on their enemies and win. Their enemies have absolutely no idea what's going on, and that's how I felt, totally lost and confused. That was even better done than Battle of the Bastards. My complaint here is (again) with not showing exactly what's going on with characters who are seemingly about to die and then don't.

The dragon fights were also great because of that confusion. When Jon's dragon collided with Daenerys' I had no idea who hit what, and that's how they were supposed to feel too. The whole episode was highly immersive because of that confusion.

I also liked that blizzard spell countering the dragons. The White Walkers didn't seem afraid of dragons for a good reason (that and the javelin of the Night King). Oh and that shot from within Winterfell with people/undead fighting on the ground and dragons fighting in the air was spectacular.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:13 pm 
 

So, from a spectacle point of view it was very entertaining. But like most of the show since S5, it doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Too many plot holes, nonsense, stupid shit.

And yeah, the biggest existential threat of the world since 8000 years being resolved in the shortest "Long Night" ever was... yeeeesh.

Thexhumed wrote:
Great episode, but I have a copuple of questions:

a) Why did Bran fly as a raven, what purpose did that serve?

b) How could Arya infiltrate the white generals? Did she possess one of them?

c) What influence did Melisandre had on Arya with that final comment on the blue eyes thing? Did she just give her the idea of possessing a white general or give her some sort of power?

a) At first I thought he warged into ravens to serve as a beacon to the Night King to lure him in. But later? 30 minutes down the line? No idea. Must have been playing Wikipedia click-a-thon or something.
b) No. She can't possess people (she can wear their faces if she kills them and take their faces, but anyway, killing a White Walker makes them disintegrate T1000 style). She just ran/sneaked past them. You actually see a WW's hair move slightly around from the wind of her run. lol
c) No. She just inspired Arya to use her Faceless Man super-assassin skill to go take out the Night King. "Blue eyes" refer to the White Walkers/Night King (green eyes possibly refer to Cersei? we'll see). It was just a scene (along with the "Not today" line) to telegraph that Arya would be the one to take out the Night King.

Speaking of which.... how did so many people get blindsided by this? I see a few who said they saw it coming but lot more who found it surprising. Like guys.... the moment Melisandre said "blue eyes" I thought "Oh Arya will kill the Night King" and waited impatiently the entire rest of the episode for it to happen. :lol: "Any time Arya..." "Arya where are you at sis..." "Arya? How about now?" "Seven hells where are YOU" "JON'S ABOUT TO GET QUENTYNED, DO YOUR THING NOW FFS"

...Not gonna lie, as goofy as it was, I still cheered and clapped when she finally killed the T1000. They do have the "entertaining spectacle" part right.
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:04 pm 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
For example, her ability in creating fire had become arguably obsolete given the fact that our heroes have two goddamn fire-breathing dragons. Case in point, the part when she's praying to the Lord of Light to ignite the flames for the trenches. I know it was supposed to be dramatic and intense, but the whole time I was thinking, "why in the hell isn't Jon simply igniting the trenches with his fire-breathing dragon?!" (Keep in mind Jon is perched on top of Winterfell with his dragon at this moment). Or when she ignited the Dothraki swords into flaming swords. Sure it looked cool, but it was completely pointless given the fact that they died immediately after. And at the end of it all, Melisandre simply....dies. For no reason. I feel now, in hindsight, her appearance in Season 7 should've been her send-off. It would've solidified her "mysterious" nature: a mysterious woman with mysterious powers who has a mysterious past who simply disappears mysteriously from Westoros, never to be seen again. It may have been cliche to go that route, but quite frankly I much prefer that hypothetical ending than having her pointlessly reappear in this season.

Jon and Dany were up in the air completely shrouded in fog at that time, remember? They had no idea what the situation on the ground was. Davos said something along the lines of "They can't see it" when he was trying to signal. At least that's how I remembered it.

Maybe I need to see it again, but I could've sworn that when Melisandre was trying to light up the trenches Jon was perched right on top of Winterfell with his dragon, as in standing on top of a building looking downwards. Now I guess you could say that the fog was just that thick but, I don't know.

OzzyApu wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
All this, of course, serves as a reminder on how heartbreaking it is that the writers were forced to end the show given how expensive it is. And you can tell since it all feels so goddamn rushed, hence the bad writing.

I think HBO was more than willing to front any costs if it meant shitload more money coming in, but expenses do play a factor. I remember reading that Dave and Dave were exhausted by season 6, feeling burned out to the point of "we need to wrap this shit up now".

Damn that makes it even more frustrating! It's like, "eh, we're tired of this shit. Let's just phone it in and make shit up so we can just leave and do something else, who cares if the ending ends up being lame."

Fuck dude.

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Bishop_Drugsalot
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:42 am
Posts: 524
Location: Purgatory
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:16 am 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
OzzyApu wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
For example, her ability in creating fire had become arguably obsolete given the fact that our heroes have two goddamn fire-breathing dragons. Case in point, the part when she's praying to the Lord of Light to ignite the flames for the trenches. I know it was supposed to be dramatic and intense, but the whole time I was thinking, "why in the hell isn't Jon simply igniting the trenches with his fire-breathing dragon?!" (Keep in mind Jon is perched on top of Winterfell with his dragon at this moment). Or when she ignited the Dothraki swords into flaming swords. Sure it looked cool, but it was completely pointless given the fact that they died immediately after. And at the end of it all, Melisandre simply....dies. For no reason. I feel now, in hindsight, her appearance in Season 7 should've been her send-off. It would've solidified her "mysterious" nature: a mysterious woman with mysterious powers who has a mysterious past who simply disappears mysteriously from Westoros, never to be seen again. It may have been cliche to go that route, but quite frankly I much prefer that hypothetical ending than having her pointlessly reappear in this season.

Jon and Dany were up in the air completely shrouded in fog at that time, remember? They had no idea what the situation on the ground was. Davos said something along the lines of "They can't see it" when he was trying to signal. At least that's how I remembered it.

Maybe I need to see it again, but I could've sworn that when Melisandre was trying to light up the trenches Jon was perched right on top of Winterfell with his dragon, as in standing on top of a building looking downwards. Now I guess you could say that the fog was just that thick but, I don't know.

You are correct. As soon as the trench lights up, they show Jon just chilling in the battlements with his dragon. I guess he didn't get the memo of the trenches needing to be lit in the first place.

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Avocat
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:25 am
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:39 am 
 

Not enough important character deaths. Those kind of twists are what kept me watching this show. Nobody of importance was killed, and even some useless characters that could have easily been killed off with no detriment to the show survived.

Aside from some bizarrely dumb tactical moves by the defenders and general confusion of what was actually happening in the episode, it was still fun to watch.

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drterror666
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:49 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:27 pm 
 

So, where do I think this is going?
- John and Co. fight Cersei's forces and get utterly pounded
- Drogon flies off back to Old Valyria, where it's been bringing up a horde of dragons for the past three years, which it brings into the fight
- FLAMING CARNAGE!!!!!

Bonus feature - Cersei impaled on the Iron Throne!!! POETIC JUSTICE!!!!

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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:31 pm 
 

Shouldn't virtually everyone who was in the crypt be dead? I'm pretty sure they were nearly all unarmed, and the dead were coming out of the walls!
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Thexhumed
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:24 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:

You actually see a WW's hair move slightly around from the wind of her run. lol


So that was it? I thought it was Arya herself wearing the WW face and looking at the NK to go stabby-stabby on him, hence my confusion.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:49 pm 
 

My biggest problem with this episode, or the series lately really, summarized in one perfect image...

Image

Yeah. Honestly fuck this show. Pure dumb spectacle but yikes, nothing holds up to scrutiny.

Thexhumed wrote:
So that was it? I thought it was Arya herself wearing the WW face and looking at the NK to go stabby-stabby on him, hence my confusion.

Arya wasn't wearing any face. To wear someone's face she needs to kill them, and if she kills a WW, it's gonna be by stabbing them with dragonglass or Valyrian steel which will make them melt away and thus no face to wear. She just stealthily ran up to him. Quiet as a shadow *, swift as a deer.

* nevermind the goofy scream
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:59 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
My biggest problem with this episode, or the series lately really, summarized in one perfect image...



To be fair, the stakes were incredibly high regardless. If he had won at Winterfell the rest would have been a victory lap with the massive amount of forces gained in the North. Not that I would have minded a total defeat at Winterfell with Bran dying and the survivors fleeing to the south, braving the Long Night while looking for another way to defeat the Night King while Cersei is doing her thing as well, but they would have needed another full season for that. But they probably should have done that in the first place. But with the amount of time they chose to finish the show with, I don't see how they could have let the Night King push in much further.

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By_Inheritance
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:40 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
My biggest problem with this episode, or the series lately really, summarized in one perfect image...

Image

It's almost as if they couldn't get past the wall... I wonder why?

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:02 am 
 

By_Inheritance wrote:
It's almost as if they couldn't get past the wall... I wonder why?

Well. All the humans had to do was... nothing. The Others couldn't cross the Wall due to its magic. But by trying to fight the night army, they gave the Night King a dragon which took down the Wall and then holy shit they're advanciiii~ no wait they're dead, boom.

Cersei was right.
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Thexhumed
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 11:00 pm 
 

The weakest episode in S8 so far, so many important events with little to no tension built before them, so many unconnected situations with no explanation to them, it felt more like a compilation of loose scenes than a proper, cohesive episode.
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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 12:45 am 
 

Thexhumed wrote:
The weakest episode in S8 so far, so many important events with little to no tension built before them, so many unconnected situations with no explanation to them, it felt more like a compilation of loose scenes than a proper, cohesive episode.

Agreed.

This is almost exactly what I thought would happen when they announced that the final season would be only 6 episodes long; everything just feels rushed and/or forced. They show a series of events with little to no breathing room, which gives this impression that things just....happen, almost like a montage of events. Viserion dying is a perfect example. This is a dragon that Dany has had since the very first season, they are her "children," and in this episode he just...died. I imagine that scene was written in the screenplay like this: " And then BOOM! Viserion dies!.....Moving on now." Or the way Jon simply forfeited Ghost. He's had that wolf since it was a cub in Season 1, and he just gives it up without so much as a "farewell." Again, no breathing room, things just happen. Or that whole Brienne romance thing with Jaimie, talk about forced. I believe it would've just been better had Brienne had died during the Winterfell battle; I'm really not seeing the reason on why she's alive.

Credit to where Credit is due though: I totally thought Tyrion was going to die in the end. I know GRRM has already said that Tyrion will last until the end of the series, and I just assumed the show-runners would do the same. But for a split second there I was getting this creeping feeling that they were going to surprise us. After all, we haven't had a major character die yet.

One last thing: Fucking finally someone pointed out the fact that Jon and Dany were related. I mean, what the fuck?! It truly seems like Jon and Dany, themselves, haven't realized it. Or is it a Targaryen thing? Like, are they genetically predisposed to performing incest without thinking it's weird?

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 12:46 am 
 

Damn, I thought that one was great. As soon as their plan to sail to Dragonstone was mentioned I shouted "Euron ambush!" and lo and behold. Great evil Cersei back in action, I knew she wouldn't go down without some more big swings.

As kind of an aside, it seems to me like the showrunners somehow didn't really know what to do with the whole White Walker story by the end and just decided to haphazardly wrap it up as quickly as they could (I forgot to give my thoughts on the last - controversial - episode, but I think it's been discussed enough), which is kind of baffling since it really is the "main" story of the series. But ever since the show moved beyond the books I've sort of considered it more similar to fan fiction than actual canon, so I'm still able to enjoy it on its own merits. After the end of last week's episode a part of me was really hoping there would be more to it, like it wasn't really the end of the WW, but there's plainly no more time to reverse that. Pretty baffling and really underwhelming, but I'm just kind of along for the ride at this point. It also makes me even more interested to see where Martin goes in the books since of course there isn't actually any supervillian Night King :lol:

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 12:50 am 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Viserion dying is a perfect example. This is a dragon that Dany has had since the very first season, they are her "children," and in this episode he just...died. I imagine that scene was written in the screenplay like this: " And then BOOM! Viserion dies!.....Moving on now."


That was Rhaegal, not Viserion. And I dunno, I thought the abrupt death was pretty shocking, and we got a pretty believable/emotional reaction from Dany. Obviously she doesn't want to have a breakdown in front of her army and followers. Don't really know what more there is to expect.

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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 12:52 am 
 

Razakel wrote:
As kind of an aside, it seems to me like the showrunners somehow didn't really know what to do with the whole White Walker story by the end and just decided to haphazardly wrap it up as quickly as they could (I forgot to give my thoughts on the last - controversial - episode, but I think it's been discussed enough), which is kind of baffling since it really is the "main" story of the series...After the end of last week's episode a part of me was really hoping there would be more to it, like it wasn't really the end of the WW, but there's plainly no more time to reverse that. Pretty baffling and really underwhelming...

Though I agree with all this, I do find it suspicious that some characters are either staying in Winterfell or going back up North. Could this be a possible build-up for a second round with the White Walkers? Given the fact that there's only 2 episodes left I truly hope not, because then that would really be a forced plotline that they would just rush through.

Razakel wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Viserion dying is a perfect example. This is a dragon that Dany has had since the very first season, they are her "children," and in this episode he just...died. I imagine that scene was written in the screenplay like this: " And then BOOM! Viserion dies!.....Moving on now."


That was Rhaegal, not Viserion.

God-fucking-dammit, sorry about that.

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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 2:28 am 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Razakel wrote:
As kind of an aside, it seems to me like the showrunners somehow didn't really know what to do with the whole White Walker story by the end and just decided to haphazardly wrap it up as quickly as they could (I forgot to give my thoughts on the last - controversial - episode, but I think it's been discussed enough), which is kind of baffling since it really is the "main" story of the series...After the end of last week's episode a part of me was really hoping there would be more to it, like it wasn't really the end of the WW, but there's plainly no more time to reverse that. Pretty baffling and really underwhelming...

Though I agree with all this, I do find it suspicious that some characters are either staying in Winterfell or going back up North. Could this be a possible build-up for a second round with the White Walkers? Given the fact that there's only 2 episodes left I truly hope not, because then that would really be a forced plotline that they would just rush through.

Razakel wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Viserion dying is a perfect example. This is a dragon that Dany has had since the very first season, they are her "children," and in this episode he just...died. I imagine that scene was written in the screenplay like this: " And then BOOM! Viserion dies!.....Moving on now."


That was Rhaegal, not Viserion.

God-fucking-dammit, sorry about that.


I'd bet good money there's 0% chance they're bringing the white walkers back. They're not THAT stupid.

I thought it was a decent episode, not bad, not amazing.

re incest, you must not be familiar with the history of the world's monarchies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_intermarriage
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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 8:47 am 
 

Nahsil wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Razakel wrote:
As kind of an aside, it seems to me like the showrunners somehow didn't really know what to do with the whole White Walker story by the end and just decided to haphazardly wrap it up as quickly as they could (I forgot to give my thoughts on the last - controversial - episode, but I think it's been discussed enough), which is kind of baffling since it really is the "main" story of the series...After the end of last week's episode a part of me was really hoping there would be more to it, like it wasn't really the end of the WW, but there's plainly no more time to reverse that. Pretty baffling and really underwhelming...

Though I agree with all this, I do find it suspicious that some characters are either staying in Winterfell or going back up North. Could this be a possible build-up for a second round with the White Walkers? Given the fact that there's only 2 episodes left I truly hope not, because then that would really be a forced plotline that they would just rush through.


I'd bet good money there's 0% chance they're bringing the white walkers back. They're not THAT stupid.

Oh I agree, but the writers did put non-combatants into the crypts during the battle of Winterfell despite the characters knowing that the White Walkers are capable of necromancy. So the writers can be surprisingly stupid nowadays.

Nahsil wrote:
re incest, you must not be familiar with the history of the world's monarchies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_intermarriage

Oh I'm aware. But I was under the impression that in the world of GoT the Targaryens were the only family that practiced incest, and that it was something to be frowned upon by the majority of the Westoros inhabitants. Even further, if I remember correctly, the writers, themselves, claimed last season that the scene in which Dany and Jon first engaged in sex was supposed to be "shocking," for the audience realized that they were related but the characters didn't. If what you're trying to say is true (that this was always normal in the world of GoT), then that would mean that they're backpedaling on the "shocking" claim from last season and are now saying, "nope, never shocking, never that big of a deal." Which would show, once again, that the writers are pretty fucking stupid.

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Thexhumed
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 9:58 am 
 

Razakel wrote:
SuperVeji4 wrote:
Viserion dying is a perfect example. This is a dragon that Dany has had since the very first season, they are her "children," and in this episode he just...died. I imagine that scene was written in the screenplay like this: " And then BOOM! Viserion dies!.....Moving on now."


That was Rhaegal, not Viserion. And I dunno, I thought the abrupt death was pretty shocking, and we got a pretty believable/emotional reaction from Dany. Obviously she doesn't want to have a breakdown in front of her army and followers. Don't really know what more there is to expect.


Yes, Emilia Clarke's performance was on point, but that's not the issue, rather, how unbelievable Rhaegal's death was; they were flying several feet above sea level and they didn't see Euron's fleet? And why portrait dragons through the entire series as mighty war machines to later be decimated by some stupid sailors who were using aimbot? And to make things worse, they later miss all their big ass arrows on a target 10 times easier to hit because... reasons I guess.
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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 10:06 am 
 

I’ve read all the books and have avoided the show, because I really didn’t feel like reliving everything all over again, so I’ve started watching from the final season and I’m feeling pretty underwhelmed. It’s probably my fault, because I’m so far behind with only reading the books, but a lot of the events I’ve seen just feel like they were thrown together because this is the last season. I’ll finish it, but I will never consider this canon. This just feels like a placeholder until George R.R. Martin (hopefully) finishes the books.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 1:40 pm 
 

Those scorpions annoyed the shit out of me. They were like basically railguns. Ripped through armored dragonhide from hundreds of yards away (how the shit did flying dragons get ambushed by surface ships?!?!) and obliterated wooden ships from the same distance with more force than even cannons would have.

The key with shit like that is to have the fantastical thing (the dragons) be clearly superior to the tech people think up to counter them in order to make the threat real and scary, then have some Brave Hero use the tech, feeble as it is, to beat the super scary threat. Having the scorpions as some sort of hard counter to the dragons is just not at all dramatically satisfying.
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Belial
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 3:17 pm 
 

And it was in this same episode that they mentioned dragons would cut off Euron "A Finger in the Bum" Greyjoy from doing stuff at sea.

It's just too fucking cheap to try and force Euron as a big threat just by making him ambush other armies out of nowhere every time. They only made things happen the way they did with Rhaegal in order to even the odds, to show us that Cersei and her pet clown are the "real" threat. They could have got the dragon killed during the fight at Winterfell at least, to make Daenerys lose "half" of her remaining dragons, as with everything else. But no, fucking scorpions solve dragon problems. I guess it's a good thing the Golden company didn't bring elephants, otherwise who knows, maybe they'd actually conquer the north with them, or throw them on Drogon using catapults or any other stupid "oh this will look awesome on screen!" reason.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 4:10 pm 
 

There was some good stuff this episode. Especially the dialogue between Tyrion and Varys and the victory dinner.

The death of Rhaegal though.... uuuuuuuugggghhhhhh.... so badly handled. Why didn't they spot the ships? If they spotted the ships why didn't the dragons fall back or why didn't the fleet prepare for battle? Are the Scorpions powered by The Force and does that explain how they shot past the rocks they were hiding behind? Do they have x-ray tech that can see and aim through the rocks?

Why didn't they have Danny spot the ships from above and engage them with Drogon and Rhaegal only to be caught off guard by the Scorpions that then manage to kill Rhaegal by shooting him at close range when he flies overhead, or because he can't get away fast enough because of his damaged wing? Now that could have been an interesting and logically consistent scene with an amazing pay-off!

Like there is a good story here and I still like where this is going, but it's sad that the writers are choosing the cheapest ways possible to tell it. It really lessens the whole experience. I wonder if it's just laziness and impotence or if it has to do with budget and time constraints. Or all of it.

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 11:02 pm 
 

Yeah, that all would've made way too much sense. Here are my predictions for the end (some ideas stolen from others, sorry!):

- Bran sees the emergence of a new Night King in the North.
- Cersei hears about Jon's forces heading south and sends The Mountain to lead some forces to face them (because why take advantage of fortifications to defend yourself, amirite).
- Arya and The Hound ambush The Mountain. Cleganebowl. Hound kills the Mountain with aid from Arya (he wanted it for himself! he's bitter and grumpy!) but suffers serious injuries. Arya stays with him until he dies, denying her the chance to get to Cersei in time to kill her.
- Dany nukes King's Landing with her last remaining dragon, killing tons of civilians.
- Jon is forced to kill Dany because she's gone completely nuts. Bran tells Jon about new Night King, and Jon goes north to rebuild the wall and the Night's Watch.
- Jaime sees that Cersei sacrificed all of the civilians to defend herself, thinks the baby is Euron's, kills Euron (maybe? someone else might get this one) and Cersei, then himself when he learns the truth (it was his baby, because fast travel and timelines don't matter).
- Sansa takes the Iron Throne.
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Thexhumed
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 11:07 pm 
 

At this point anything can happen, and to be honest, I'm rooting for Bran to take the throne.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 11:26 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Yeah, that all would've made way too much sense. Here are my predictions for the end (some ideas stolen from others, sorry!):

- Bran sees the emergence of a new Night King in the North.
- Cersei hears about Jon's forces heading south and sends The Mountain to lead some forces to face them (because why take advantage of fortifications to defend yourself, amirite).
- Arya and The Hound ambush The Mountain. Cleganebowl. Hound kills the Mountain with aid from Arya (he wanted it for himself! he's bitter and grumpy!) but suffers serious injuries. Arya stays with him until he dies, denying her the chance to get to Cersei in time to kill her.
- Dany nukes King's Landing with her last remaining dragon, killing tons of civilians.
- Jon is forced to kill Dany because she's gone completely nuts. Bran tells Jon about new Night King, and Jon goes north to rebuild the wall and the Night's Watch.
- Jaime sees that Cersei sacrificed all of the civilians to defend herself, thinks the baby is Euron's, kills Euron (maybe? someone else might get this one) and Cersei, then himself when he learns the truth (it was his baby, because fast travel and timelines don't matter).
- Sansa takes the Iron Throne.


I'm with you up until that point (in bold). I'm also fairly certain Jaime knows the baby is his already, no?

My guess is that after or during Dany's crazy firebombing of King's Landing, or maybe Cersei's firebombing of King's Landing, Tyrion does something treasonous and helps his sister escape (OR, maybe Dany thinks he helped her escape when he didn't!). Dany wins. Dany puts Tyrion on trial and he is executed as Dany grows more erratic and paranoid. Jon tries to reason with her, but can't get through to her. She starts talking about wanting to kill everyone, which leads to Jon having no choice but to kill her and cry while doing so. Cut to Cersei running into the wilderness. She finds Jaime somehow, and they reconcile, but Jaime has come to his senses and realizes all the evil things she has done and so strangles her to death (with his fake hand) and cries while doing so. Seeing how he has killed the person he actually loves most, he kills himself in despair. Murder-suicide. All predictions come true. The prediction that Dany would be betrayed by love. The prediction that Cersei would die by strangulation from her younger brother. Euron probably tries to flee to the Iron Islands only to be killed there.

After that? Yeah, Bran is totally gonna tell Jon about the potential for a new NK and how the wall will need to be rebuilt. Jon will go back to the Wall and stay as Lord Commander. No idea who will take the Iron Throne. Maybe Sansa? Maybe Bran? Maybe Bronn? Maybe even Gendry. Maybe at the end of this there is no King's Landing and no Iron Throne.

Also Arya? No idea. I still like the idea that she either willingly goes to the Faceless Men again, or she is compelled to do so. Or maybe she becomes a knight? Beats me.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 11:40 pm 
 

To be honest, I kind of forgot details that other people really cling to (like Jaime knowing - or not - that it's his baby).

I think Arya will be forced to become the Stark in Winterfell. She might also go back to the Faceless Men, but I think they foreshadowed it with her rejecting Gendry because being a lady is not who she is, but if Sansa takes the Iron Throne, Bran is basically a guy who stares into the distance from his wheelchair, and Jon going to be the new Lord Commander, she's the only Stark left to run the North, and she's just gonna have to deal with that I think.

Also...I don't really see how your predictions disagree with mine? Except the Jaime/baby thing, which I might've just forgotten about. But the main beats are all pretty similar. I'm not sure about Tyrion's fate, could really go any which way at this point. But, I think he'll live, and rule with Sansa.
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Trashy_Rambo
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:29 am 
 

Jon having to kill Dany seems quite plausible at this point. It could be a setup for him to fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy, but to what end? A "second" Night King would probably be really cheap.
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SuperVeji4
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 4:40 am 
 

All these predictions sound cool, but then I’m reminded that there's only 2 episodes left; which means all these theories, if they come true, will be extremely rushed. Especially considering that Emilia Clark has hinted that the next episode will be like episode 3, as in a giant battle sequence that lasts nearly the entire run time of 1 hour and 20 minutes. Which means the “capture/trial” of Tyrion, Jon killing Dany, Bran seeing the return of the White Walkers, Jon becoming Lord Commander, rebuilding the wall, and all the other little tidbits of predictions and theories will all be shoved into the last episode. God, did this last season really have to be only 6 goddamn episodes?!

Also, when it comes to the predictions on who’ll sit on the Iron Throne, do you guys think it’s possible that no one ends up sitting on the throne? As in, instead, they take down the throne, break down the chain of command, and end up forming a sort-of “council” to rule over Westoros in a more “collaborative” effort. I believe it could be a good way to neutralize this whole political clusterfuck.

Trashy_Rambo wrote:
A "second" Night King would probably be really cheap.
Man, I would be really upset if that ends up happening in the end. A sort of, “and the inhabitants of Westoros lived happily ever after....or did they? Dun, dun, DUUUUUUUUUUUNNN!” And also the fact that they never gave more of an explanation behind the nature of the White Walkers before destroying them, only to later reveal that they “survived” somehow and will eventually strike again because....reasons. Or, the writers will use the cop-out explanation of, “oh, you thought the White Walkers would be explained? No, they were always meant to be a mystery.” Which, most of the time, is code for: “we’re not very creative.”

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