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NorseDave
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:39 am
Posts: 72
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:48 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Methuen wrote:
Inkshooter wrote:
Yes. As white people, we prefer to think ...


Seriously ? 'As white people'

Honestly ?

Christ :lol:

Fragile white person spotted.

Grow up, it's clear what they meant.


I'm sure you would have used a complete opposite tone and argument if he had started the post with "As black people, they prefer to think...".

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Inkshooter
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:55 pm
Posts: 555
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:12 pm 
 

NorseDave wrote:

I'm sure you would have used a complete opposite tone and argument if he had started the post with "As black people, they prefer to think...".


The two groups occupy vastly different roles in society. There is no equivalence between the two statements.
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NorseDave
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:39 am
Posts: 72
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:43 pm 
 

Inkshooter wrote:
NorseDave wrote:

I'm sure you would have used a complete opposite tone and argument if he had started the post with "As black people, they prefer to think...".


The two groups occupy vastly different roles in society. There is no equivalence between the two statements.


Sorry, but generalizations belong to psychological bias not to socio-economic conditions. Applying psychological criteria to both statements they assume the same semantic connotation. In simple terms, as we can't imply that all black people think the same, we also can't imply that all white people think the same. And this is regardless the fact that black people tend to occupy different roles in society.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 255
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:08 am 
 

Just read a fantastic editorial in one of Asheville, NC's papers likening Confederate statues to the Nazi death camps, which still stand in Germany as reminders of history and that we should never repeat it.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:45 am 
 

Yeah because memorials and monuments are the exact same thing...
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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:52 am 
 

last_eulogy wrote:
Sadly in the United States hate speech is completely legal. Where most "democracies" in the world it is illegal. In the United States its completely legal to be a racist piece of shit. Hurting someone that is a homosexual, black, Jewish, different story. I live next town over to one of the largest Hasidic communities in the US outside of Brooklyn. Its constantly in the news the hate crimes against them. Interesting though, African American do not get the same respect. The "bad" part of their neighborhood is mostly black people and Spanish people. These people get shit on by this state including the "Hasidics" who live right next to them. Its a strange and sad paradox.


Why do you think hate speech should be illegal? Being an offensive ass shouldn't be something the state gets involved in. We actually don't need an overarching structure to regulate peoples opinions- in general, if someone is a racist wanker, they get called out and have their arguments debunked and their reputation relegated to that of a mere cro-magnon racist; people witnessing this stuff can learn and develop more complete perspectives. That some may be influenced towards racism isn't all that important; we cannot control peoples thoughts or opinions and shouldn't waste time trying to do anything more than persuade them with words and arguments.

Plus, the slippery slope argument- who decides what consititutes hate speech? The government? Why wouldn't they make anti-government speech illegal- its dangerous, after all, it could foment revolt and lead to violence and is offensive to people in the government. In the south, before abolition, some people wanted to ban anti-slavery rhetoric as 'hate speech'. Whosoever is in power will invariably try and make speech which goes against their ideals illegal. Better off to avoid setting a regrettable precedent and actually enable open conversation no matter the issue. Its how we have always progressed; examine an issue honestly and change our principles as a result of gathering more complete information about it. At the very least, lasting change can be expected in this way.

The flipside to having the freedom to speak one's mind; you also get the freedom to hear another's thoughts. I can't trust the state to determine what I can and can't hear. What wisdom do governments have to make that choice for me? What could that monolith know about what is or isn't offensive to me? Isn't that my choice? Its just so confusing that people with liberal attitudes actually want the government to divest them of some of that freedom, and for what? Unless its violence, being offended is ultimately just a feeling, it feels shitty but it doesn't say anything about the truth or falsity of whatever provoked the feeling of offense. Only reason and open conversation can drill down on that.

Its tough, because no-one who is worth a damn wants to hear racist ideologues spew nonsense. Its bothers the shit out of me but not because its legal. What would bother me more is a society where certain opinions could end up with a person in prison. I live in Australia, and racist speech is actually proscribed by legislation. Despite benefiting directly from that- at least, I am potentially offended less- its not a situation that I am comfortable with, nor do I walk around feeling 'unoffended' and revelling in some state of happy feelings when before I was constantly ducking racial taunts. Its more offensive to me to think people don't believe I can handle being insulted. And with all the talk about systemic racism, expecting the state- the very bedrock of the system- to change the behaviour of individuals seems to be massively missing the point. The structure is top-down; we exist in its shadow, not the other way around. Hence, laws which prevent organisational discrimination are vital to create equality of oppurtunity; that is the structure we refer to. Laws which control the words random folks can use does very little to change the larger structure around us.

I'm not following your logic regarding Jewish people here. But it doesn't surprise me to see Jews pushed into being of the priviledged class, despite the overwhelming weight of history that tells another story.

Eeek, apologies for writing something much too long and boring for anyone to bother reading. Forgive the spelling.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:04 am 
 

1. What the government deems illegal is determined by the people who vote it in. That's kinda how our political system got its name.
2. That you can handle being insulted doesn't give you the qualification or the right to assume or demand that of everybody else.
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:41 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
2. That you can handle being insulted doesn't give you the qualification or the right to assume or demand that of everybody else.

Handling insults is arguably a necessity in life, for you’re going to have a real tough time in life if you never grow a thick skin. So, it’s not an individual who assumes/demands that tolerance, it’s life itself. And no amount of “Hate Speech” laws are going to change that simple fact.

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Inkshooter
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Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:52 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Just read a fantastic editorial in one of Asheville, NC's papers likening Confederate statues to the Nazi death camps, which still stand in Germany as reminders of history and that we should never repeat it.


The plantation houses that are still all over the South are a much better analogy. There are no statues of Hitler or Heydrich on public display in Europe.
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Luvers
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:02 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
Your much too long and boring post no one but me bothered reading.
I agree with most of what you have written here.

As far as the statues coming down, I say whatever, take them down. Not only has it always been disrespectful to commemorate any part of the confederacy but it is downright stupid to do so. It was a rebellion against America where 620,000+ Americans died. It is mind-boggling how any American can praise people who would rather kill Americans just to keep their free slave labor.

As for the statues of people viewed positively coming down, I feel that is where others will latch on and use it disparagingly against the movement on a whole. There is not a single person in history who has a clean past. Even the greatest of people have said and done things that would be a big mark against their spotless character. Judging a person for being racist during a time where practically everyone was racist as well is just dumb. The North - this :roll: bedrock of liberty :roll: - did not allow human bondage but they also did not allow African Americans to testify in court and also saw the largest civil and most racially-charged urban disturbance in American history when the New York draft riots occurred. - .People are evil, some more so than others, but if we were to take down every statue of someone who has blemishes on their record there would be no statues of anyone.

Maybe what should be done is every confederate statue should be torn down and converted into the concrete that is then used for the streets in all of the confederate states. That way people can walk all over the last remaining vestiges of racist fucks who enjoyed the good life on the backs of the current populations ancestors.
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Ina_Dingir_Xul
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Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:33 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
in general, if someone is a racist wanker, they get called out and have their arguments debunked and their reputation relegated to that of a mere cro-magnon racist


This would be a good thing, but I don't think it necessarily would translate to the outcome you have described.

The people capable of taking down trash rhetoric are not necessarily going to be doing so on a regular basis, especially if you consider having to repeatedly debunk the same "opinion" again and again. I would imagine some, in all probability the majority, of these individuals would go "Oh, they're just idiots spewing garbage, they're not worth my time to even entertain" and simply move on. Just like the anti-vaccine / conspiracy theory crowd, such opinions are not based in logic or fact, and the ever-shifting goalposts can quickly become pointless to shoot down repeatedly. And if decent folk don't call out and shoot down racism (or other hate speech / bullshit in general) simply because they know the source is beneath notice or acknowledgement, then nothing will actually happen.

Acidgobblin wrote:
Despite benefiting directly from that- at least, I am potentially offended less- its not a situation that I am comfortable with, nor do I walk around feeling 'unoffended' and revelling in some state of happy feelings when before I was constantly ducking racial taunts. Its more offensive to me to think people don't believe I can handle being insulted.


I don't agree that the absence of being offended means the presence of happiness. For simplification's sake, assuming the two exist on a directly opposite numerical scale (the two extremes being heavily offended and euphoric), there would be a neutral point. And the aim of such legislation would not be to push everyone into the "positive" range, but to establish the neutral point as a baseline. People should not have to accept constant offense as the normal. As to the counterargument that offense is taken, not given, I imagine it hard to not be affected if it societal norms revolve around the invalidation of your worth, either as an individual or on the basis of characteristics outside your control.

Acidgobblin wrote:
Laws which control the words random folks can use does very little to change the larger structure around us.


This would be true on the assumption that humans generally follow logical patterns of thought. But often this is not the case, and everyone is susceptible to bias and generalization (you could very well argue that this exact statement reflects that of me!). Such laws will not make the opinions of racists go away, or completely eliminate racism (or other forms of hate opinions); this I agree with you. But it is about limiting their ability to affect the targets, and the demonstration of consequences to such actions (or words). Someone can be free to hate any ethnic group / religious group / etc, but if they attempt to demonstrate that hate onto someone, that should be stopped. I would say it is about establishing (or enforcing) some degree of basic decency. Just as it would be illegal to beat someone up, it would be illegal to deliberately make someone feel intimidated or threatened with hate speech. The two are not equal, but we can probably agree that, differing severity of consequence aside, both are not good things to have.

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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:01 pm 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
Why do you think hate speech should be illegal? Being an offensive ass shouldn't be something the state gets involved in. We actually don't need an overarching structure to regulate peoples opinions- in general, if someone is a racist wanker, they get called out and have their arguments debunked and their reputation relegated to that of a mere cro-magnon racist; people witnessing this stuff can learn and develop more complete perspectives. That some may be influenced towards racism isn't all that important; we cannot control peoples thoughts or opinions and shouldn't waste time trying to do anything more than persuade them with words and arguments.

This is true.

We know this because racism is not mainstream, and the more it gets a platform, the more it gets rejected, instead of spreading like a virus. For example, it is impossible for a racist person saying overtly racist thing to rise to positions of power, such as (checks notes) becoming the president of the United States.

People exposed to racist viewpoints definitely become anti-racist, too. Just look at how inept and powerless Fox News is at spreading their racist vitriol. Everyone in the world knows them to be a joke, and they have no meaningful influence on society or politics.

Also, if you ban hate speech, you'll turn into a completely non-free society, such as Canada, where freedom doesn't exist and the people are subjected to tyranny. It is known.

I am very smart!
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Acidgobblin
Literally a puppy

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:18 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
This is true.

We know this because racism is not mainstream, and the more it gets a platform, the more it gets rejected, instead of spreading like a virus. For example, it is impossible for a racist person saying overtly racist thing to rise to positions of power, such as (checks notes) becoming the president of the United States.

People exposed to racist viewpoints definitely become anti-racist, too. Just look at how inept and powerless Fox News is at spreading their racist vitriol. Everyone in the world knows them to be a joke, and they have no meaningful influence on society or politics.

Also, if you ban hate speech, you'll turn into a completely non-free society, such as Canada, where freedom doesn't exist and the people are subjected to tyranny. It is known.

I am very smart!


Never sure how to respond to sarcasm personally, nor am I even borderline decent at identifying it, so I largely don't bother. Suffice to say, there are shadows of a particular epistemology being revealed by some of the claims I read above, and I don't agree with them. Each to their own, but if you ever wanted to discuss this stuff without getting irritated or being rude, I would be happy to. All the best.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:20 pm 
 

Not worth discussing anything with someone too stupid to acknowledge basic fucking reality

We don't even live in the same goddamn universe
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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cweed
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:48 pm
Posts: 501
Location: LFK, USA
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:25 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
This is true.

We know this because racism is not mainstream, and the more it gets a platform, the more it gets rejected, instead of spreading like a virus. For example, it is impossible for a racist person saying overtly racist thing to rise to positions of power, such as (checks notes) becoming the president of the United States.

People exposed to racist viewpoints definitely become anti-racist, too. Just look at how inept and powerless Fox News is at spreading their racist vitriol. Everyone in the world knows them to be a joke, and they have no meaningful influence on society or politics.

Also, if you ban hate speech, you'll turn into a completely non-free society, such as Canada, where freedom doesn't exist and the people are subjected to tyranny. It is known.

I am very smart!


Never sure how to respond to sarcasm personally, nor am I even borderline decent at identifying it, so I largely don't bother. Suffice to say, there are shadows of a particular epistemology being revealed by some of the claims I read above, and I don't agree with them. Each to their own, but if you ever wanted to discuss this stuff without getting irritated or being rude, I would be happy to. All the best.


lol dude wtf are you even talking about.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:31 am 
 

From what I've seen the United States actually goes to ridiculous lengths to defend hate speech. Because hate speech 99% of the time qualifies as libel (deliberately false claims intended to hurt a person economically - like "black people are more violent", "gay people spread AIDS", reducing their chances to get a job or run a business) and are therefore not protected by free speech laws, but the mental gymnastics go that because they're political statements somehow (they really aren't) they need to be exempt from libel laws and get extra protection as free speech. Or whatever. So basically if I say "Monsanto randomly kills people without a care and no one should do business with them" that's libel and I get sued, if I say "black guys randomly kill people without a care and no one should do business with them" that's protected free speech. And I think Americans really love their racism if they go to such lengths to bend laws to protect it.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:47 am 
 

I'm not sure if y'all missed the part where Acidgoblin asked me for VIDEO or PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE of lynchings? Another universe about covers it.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:50 am 
 

Imagine truly believing in The Year of Our Lord 2020 that the "free marketplace of ideas" is a net positive and people with harmful ideas will simply be naturally knocked down with LOGIC and REASON, and that if anybody winds up agreeing with those harmful ideas then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There are really only a few reasons somebody can hold this viewpoint in this day and age. Either you have harmful views yourself and want them to maintain a mainstream platform so they can more easily spread or you simply haven't been paying attention to *gestures at everything*
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Ina_Dingir_Xul
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Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 8:44 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:34 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Imagine truly believing in The Year of Our Lord 2020 that the "free marketplace of ideas" is a net positive and people with harmful ideas will simply be naturally knocked down with LOGIC and REASON, and that if anybody winds up agreeing with those harmful ideas then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There are really only a few reasons somebody can hold this viewpoint in this day and age. Either you have harmful views yourself and want them to maintain a mainstream platform so they can more easily spread or you simply haven't been paying attention to *gestures at everything*


Pretty much this. Idealistic / naive at best, malicious at worst. For someone to agree with logic, they must be logical themselves. If you needed to convince them in the first place, then this probably does not apply.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:59 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Imagine truly believing in The Year of Our Lord 2020 that the "free marketplace of ideas" is a net positive and people with harmful ideas will simply be naturally knocked down with LOGIC and REASON, and that if anybody winds up agreeing with those harmful ideas then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There are really only a few reasons somebody can hold this viewpoint in this day and age. Either you have harmful views yourself and want them to maintain a mainstream platform so they can more easily spread or you simply haven't been paying attention to *gestures at everything*

I'm actually all for the free marketplace for ideas. Just tell me all the good things that ever came from racism. Like now, in 1920, in 1820, in 1720, just please let me know all the good things that historically we got from racism. Give me a big list of all the awesome things racism gave our societies around the globe. I'm listening.
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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:25 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
I'm actually all for the free marketplace for ideas. Just tell me all the good things that ever came from racism. Like now, in 1920, in 1820, in 1720, just please let me know all the good things that historically we got from racism. Give me a big list of all the awesome things racism gave our societies around the globe. I'm listening.

Here's my list:

Spoiler: show
Nothing.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:52 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
[

True, but the left in general have become increasingly censorious and regressive. There are certain things that are considered infallible truth that if questioned renders one a a 'bad guy'.


I'd love a rundown of a few things that you think fall on this list, because it sounds suspiciously like a white dude complaining that there are consequences for open bigotry.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:16 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
[

True, but the left in general have become increasingly censorious and regressive. There are certain things that are considered infallible truth that if questioned renders one a a 'bad guy'.


I'd love a rundown of a few things that you think fall on this list, because it sounds suspiciously like a white dude complaining that there are consequences for open bigotry.


Maybe you can get the ball rolling by explaining why you said those horrendous things about Jews that you did? I'd love a rundown of it.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:19 am 
 

waiguoren wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
[

True, but the left in general have become increasingly censorious and regressive. There are certain things that are considered infallible truth that if questioned renders one a a 'bad guy'.


I'd love a rundown of a few things that you think fall on this list, because it sounds suspiciously like a white dude complaining that there are consequences for open bigotry.


Maybe you can get the ball rolling by explaining why you said those horrendous things about Jews that you did? I'd love a rundown of it.

We're not taking that side track now. If you have nothing to add except pointless provocations, you can leave yourself out of this.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:23 am 
 

Fair enough, but I think before anyone takes Sedition's bait where they call out people for being bigots, they should know that Sedition is a bigot as well.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:41 am 
 

waiguoren wrote:
Fair enough, but I think before anyone takes Sedition's bait where they call out people for being bigots, they should know that Sedition is a bigot as well.

It's still a valid point, which you jumped out of the woodwork to try to discredit for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual point being made. Stop doing that.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:58 am 
 

.
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NorseDave
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:39 am
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:19 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I'm not going to go down this road again. Suffice it to say that I am not defending or supporting the repression of Jews on account of their identity as Jews; I simply take exception to the argument that the Soviet Union targeted Orthodox communities for reasons of racism or to enforce white supremacy, which I don't believe to be born out by the facts.


If you say so, you're implying that persecuting one ethnic or religious group for racist or suprematist reasons is bad, but persecuting the same group for [blank space, put any other reasons you can imagine] is acceptable!

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:02 am 
 

NorseDave wrote:
If you say so, you're implying that persecuting one ethnic or religious group for racist or suprematist reasons is bad, but persecuting the same group for [blank space, put any other reasons you can imagine] is acceptable!

Actually the Holocaust was just to defend German business owners according to the Sturmabteilung. The SA seems as reliable a source as whatever SaP is getting her information from.

And yeah those are the mental gymnastics defenses of antisemitic hate you could find on anus.com for a good 25 years and what a shocker to see them regurgitated by a person who regurgitated them for two decades. Great job by the folks who buy the "I'm still spewing the same shit but for different reasons now so it's good" excuse.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:41 am 
 

We are not doing this. Stop. Everyone.
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I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

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a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:44 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
We are not doing this. Stop. Everyone.


Yes ma'am.
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NorseDave
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:39 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:58 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
We are not doing this. Stop. Everyone.


Doing what exactly? Being racists on an anti-racism thread?

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:04 am 
 

Site owner said lay off the mudfights, Falco said "yes" and I decided to say nothing, think that may have been a smart move or you wanna keep digging?
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NorseDave
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:39 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:07 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Site owner said lay off the mudfights, Falco said "yes" and I decided to say nothing, think that may have been a smart move or you wanna keep digging?


I always had issues with hierarchies, but of course I stop.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:38 am 
 

Germany's minister of the interior is trying all he can to block an independent investigation into racism in the police because he insists that it is not an existing problem. Meanwhile more details come to light about an organisation of cops called "National Socialist Underground 2.0" that is sending death threats to left-wing politicians and attourneys (sp?) of the victims of racist violence. Yeah doesn't sound like a problem at all, Mr Seehofer.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:30 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
[

True, but the left in general have become increasingly censorious and regressive. There are certain things that are considered infallible truth that if questioned renders one a a 'bad guy'.


I'd love a rundown of a few things that you think fall on this list, because it sounds suspiciously like a white dude complaining that there are consequences for open bigotry.


Still interested in an answer to this question...
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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:22 pm 
 

Damn, guys.

Jonpo wrote:
I'm not sure if y'all missed the part where Acidgoblin asked me for VIDEO or PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE of lynchings? Another universe about covers it.


You wrote:

Quote:
"more comfortable for people to talk about statues and "preserving history" than it is to face facts. Like people of color being lynched all over America and the police in every single instance writing it off as a suicide"


I wasn't doubting the historic truth of lynchings in the US. You implied these things were still happening, - all I did was ask you to provide some substantiation. Obviously, I am doubtful of your claim, but for all I know, you better informed than me, hence my response to you. I wasn't trying to downplay anything, I was merely asking for clarification. I think I get what you inferred from my question, but my inferrence from your lack of substantive response is probably clear too.

Sedition wrote:
I'd love a rundown of a few things that you think fall on this list, because it sounds suspiciously like a white dude complaining that there are consequences for open bigotry.


Then your suspicions are decidedly misguided because I'm not white. Its interesting that you've assume that a POC couldn't express a belief in free speech. There's a word for that sort of race-based assumption, you know...

In truth, I've never for one second said that I support bigotry or consider racism to be of any positive value. I believe that racists should suffer consequences and I even mentioned precisely that- just not legal consequences. You're assuming I am trying to sneak in some bigotry despite making it really clear what I think about bigotry. I'm not trying to hide anything. Call the stasi off, friend.

Quote:
Still interested in an answer to this question...


I don't think you are honestly interested but if you want to see some interesting reactions, note that some people here have resorted to mockery and racial comments simply because I said that free speech is vital for a functioning society. Hell, even Chomsky thinks that holocaust denial should be legal. I don't agree with much else that he says especially about socialism/communis,, but he is an eminent scholar who's views the left generally absorb wholeheartedly. Just not this view? His recent signing of the open letter to Harper's mentions some other consequences that may befall people caught up in this illiberal cancel culture we see permeating society- job loss, academic suppression, reputation destroyed. Sometimes, these consquences are well deserved, but often it seems to be an application of friendly fire and is slowly becoming dominant in our institutions.

I've spent a lot of time studying critical race theory which is the basis for much of the tenets and ideals of the current antiracist movement. I recognise that racism is a truly dangerous ideology and I've experienced it. I don't believe that BLM or the antiracist movement, centering of removing agency from black/POC by insisting that white people are the only impediments to black/POC, is the best way to affect change. Saying that has had me called a white supremacist/nazi/bigot and whatever. Now, I don't really care about being labelled, but I hate the immediate chilling effect that has on dialogue and discussion. That is a huge problem IMO. If we want this situation to improve, we're going to need to discuss it and not dismiss people as "too stupid to acknowledge basic fucking reality", or assume someones race based on their opinions, or insist that believing in free speech is the same as saying that racism is positive. Anyone can build straw-folx and burn them down. I wish people would read what I wrote instead of just reacting to it. However, I totally admit that I write too much on these topics and without much flair for writing/spelling, close to heart as the issue is, and this forum isn't really the best or most open place for nuanced discussions.

I get it though. I know how the true right wingers work, having been criticised by those people too and having spent a lot of time arguing with them. I've read right wingers saying similar stuff to what I've said about free speech or racism, and at times would have assumed all sorts of nefarious motives in my posting. I really wish that wasn't the case- how did the left get to the point of wishing to restrict our freedom of speech? It didn't use to be this way, the left used to believe in freedom of expression as the principle means for redressing grievance and exposing illiberal nonsense. Its not an historically right wing position, but somehow, the left have given that foundational idea away and now resort trying to silence and condemn rather than reason and rebut. I can only insist that this itself is a greater loss than many understand, a loss of which the most dire effects are yet to unfold.
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Sepulchrave
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:33 am 
 

People cancelling Chomsky over the Cancel Culture open letter thing seem to forget that for most of its existence the left were very supportive of freedom of speech. That said, there should be more discussion of how "cancelling" affects people differently. J.K. Rowling getting shat on for being a transphobe isn't a problem. But I'm not sure there should be legal consequences for a relatively low-paid average Joe because of a racist Facebook post they wrote, especially if corporations will end up holding more social influence than governments themselves, which seems to be happening already in the US.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:33 am 
 

Sepulchrave wrote:
for most of its existence the left were very supportive of freedom of speech.

It's still the same. Contrary to what alt-right trolls will have you believe, Twitter isn't the left. The number of retweets doesn't translate to any significant majority in the real world.
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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:41 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I'd love a rundown of a few things that you think fall on this list, because it sounds suspiciously like a white dude complaining that there are consequences for open bigotry.


Then your suspicions are decidedly misguided because I'm not white. Its interesting that you've assume that a POC couldn't express a belief in free speech. There's a word for that sort of race-based assumption, you know...

In truth, I've never for one second said that I support bigotry or consider racism to be of any positive value. I believe that racists should suffer consequences and I even mentioned precisely that- just not legal consequences. You're assuming I am trying to sneak in some bigotry despite making it really clear what I think about bigotry. I'm not trying to hide anything. Call the stasi off, friend.

Quote:
Still interested in an answer to this question...


I don't think you are honestly interested but if you want to see some interesting reactions, note that some people here have resorted to mockery and racial comments simply because I said that free speech is vital for a functioning society. Hell, even Chomsky thinks that holocaust denial should be legal. I don't agree with much else that he says especially about socialism/communis,, but he is an eminent scholar who's views the left generally absorb wholeheartedly. Just not this view? His recent signing of the open letter to Harper's mentions some other consequences that may befall people caught up in this illiberal cancel culture we see permeating society- job loss, academic suppression, reputation destroyed. Sometimes, these consquences are well deserved, but often it seems to be an application of friendly fire and is slowly becoming dominant in our institutions.

I've spent a lot of time studying critical race theory which is the basis for much of the tenets and ideals of the current antiracist movement. I recognise that racism is a truly dangerous ideology and I've experienced it. I don't believe that BLM or the antiracist movement, centering of removing agency from black/POC by insisting that white people are the only impediments to black/POC, is the best way to affect change. Saying that has had me called a white supremacist/nazi/bigot and whatever. Now, I don't really care about being labelled, but I hate the immediate chilling effect that has on dialogue and discussion. That is a huge problem IMO. If we want this situation to improve, we're going to need to discuss it and not dismiss people as "too stupid to acknowledge basic fucking reality", or assume someones race based on their opinions, or insist that believing in free speech is the same as saying that racism is positive. Anyone can build straw-folx and burn them down. I wish people would read what I wrote instead of just reacting to it. However, I totally admit that I write too much on these topics and without much flair for writing/spelling, close to heart as the issue is, and this forum isn't really the best or most open place for nuanced discussions.

I get it though. I know how the true right wingers work, having been criticised by those people too and having spent a lot of time arguing with them. I've read right wingers saying similar stuff to what I've said about free speech or racism, and at times would have assumed all sorts of nefarious motives in my posting. I really wish that wasn't the case- how did the left get to the point of wishing to restrict our freedom of speech? It didn't use to be this way, the left used to believe in freedom of expression as the principle means for redressing grievance and exposing illiberal nonsense. Its not an historically right wing position, but somehow, the left have given that foundational idea away and now resort trying to silence and condemn rather than reason and rebut. I can only insist that this itself is a greater loss than many understand, a loss of which the most dire effects are yet to unfold.


That's a nice wall of text you've got there. It would be a shame if someone pointed out that it doesn't answer or even address the question posed.

So let's try this again. See if you can keep up this time.

What are some things that you believe that "the Left" and "Cancel Culture" won't allow you to say on penalty of being a 'bad guy' (or whatever your silly formulation was)?
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