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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
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Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:13 am 
 

This is not an invitation to ignore Sedition's question, but I just wanted to point out:

Acidgobblin wrote:
Hell, even Chomsky thinks that holocaust denial should be legal.


This might blow your fuckin' mind here but it turns out most people don't think that anybody is 100% right about everything. Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy for a reason.

Sepulchrave wrote:
there should be more discussion of how "cancelling" affects people differently


This is true but context is very important, and the context of that open letter really gives the game away. If somebody came to me and said "Hey will you sign this open letter about how free speech is important?" I'd say hell yeah. But if you gave me the full picture and said "Hey JK Rowling concern trolled a bunch of transphobic shit and now she's upset about people on twitter calling her a TERF, will you sign this open letter about how free speech is important? FYI it's signed by a bunch of academics and journalists and other authority figures on Stephen Pinker's speed dial" I'd say fuck off.

Everything they actually say in it is so fucking vague that you can project whatever incidents you want onto it, because if it had truthfully said it was sparked by people who aren't used to being criticized being upset about how they can be publicly criticized now then nobody would take it seriously. Their shit about "we're just concerned about what would happen when people with no power get twitter mobbed" is pure concern trolling when the whole crux of the complaint is that people with no power shouldn't be using the only platform they have to at least try holding people to account for saying shitty things. Bari Weiss doesn't give a fuck about the little guy getting fired for being racist, she fires people for saying Palestinians are human, fuck her. The "people in power" have already cancelled millions of people by throwing them in prison, spare me the crocodile tears about @Eugene_V_Dabs and @Gramsci420 calling you a lib on twitter.
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Sepulchrave
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
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Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:00 am 
 

BastardHead wrote:

Sepulchrave wrote:
there should be more discussion of how "cancelling" affects people differently


This is true but context is very important, and the context of that open letter really gives the game away. If somebody came to me and said "Hey will you sign this open letter about how free speech is important?" I'd say hell yeah. But if you gave me the full picture and said "Hey JK Rowling concern trolled a bunch of transphobic shit and now she's upset about people on twitter calling her a TERF, will you sign this open letter about how free speech is important? FYI it's signed by a bunch of academics and journalists and other authority figures on Stephen Pinker's speed dial" I'd say fuck off.


The open letter doesn't say anything about J.K. Rowling or any Twitter drama though so I'm not sure how the context changes anything. I highly doubt the likes of not very online people like Chomsky and Rushdie, who have been genuine victims because of their words, are aware of what the hell the latest drama is going on right now on Twitter. I agree that it's concern trolling coming from people like Rowling and utter hypocrisy coming from Bari Weiss. But I don't know where the idea that most of the signatures are from oversensitive journalists comes from. Freedom of speech should still be fought for despite what some hypersensitive blue check Twitter accounts say.
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Luvers
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
Posts: 327
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:00 pm 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
...Large Post...
I assure you that if your posts are substantial they will be ignored or criticized. Few people are interested in picking apart every line of a post, so most will just ignore what you write. Remember, most people cannot keep attention for more than 140 characters, especially if your words contain even the slightest dissenting point.

I think I could sum up your argument though, so correct me if I am wrong, but what you are stating is a person should be to say whatever they want and never face any consequence for their words. Would that be a proper shorthand for your point?
BastardHead wrote:
This is not an invitation to ignore Sedition's question, but I just wanted to point out:
Like she ignored his?
BastardHead wrote:
This is true but context is very important, and the context of that open letter really gives the game away. If somebody came to me and said "Hey will you sign this open letter about how free speech is important?" I'd say hell yeah. But if you gave me the full picture and said "Hey JK Rowling concern trolled a bunch of transphobic shit and now she's upset about people on twitter calling her a TERF, will you sign this open letter about how free speech is important? FYI it's signed by a bunch of academics and journalists and other authority figures on Stephen Pinker's speed dial" I'd say fuck off.
I must have missed something here, what did Rowling tweet that was so bad?
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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 9829
Location: St. Charles, Illinois
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:05 pm 
 

Luvers666 wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
...Large Post...
I assure you that if your posts are substantial they will be ignored or criticized. Few people are interested in picking apart every line of a post, so most will just ignore what you write. Remember, most people cannot keep attention for more than 140 characters, especially if your words contain even the slightest dissenting point.


Oh come on. Acid's post was a big fuckin' nothing burger that danced around a hundred different things and avoided answering the question Sedition posed to him, so yes of course it's gonna get ignored and he's gonna get pressured to stick to the subject. JAQing off and trying to control the conversation isn't nearly as clever as some people think it is.


Luvers666 wrote:
BastardHead wrote:
This is true but context is very important, and the context of that open letter really gives the game away. If somebody came to me and said "Hey will you sign this open letter about how free speech is important?" I'd say hell yeah. But if you gave me the full picture and said "Hey JK Rowling concern trolled a bunch of transphobic shit and now she's upset about people on twitter calling her a TERF, will you sign this open letter about how free speech is important? FYI it's signed by a bunch of academics and journalists and other authority figures on Stephen Pinker's speed dial" I'd say fuck off.
I must have missed something here, what did Rowling tweet that was so bad?


A bunch of TERF shit that I have a sneaking hunch you're about to defend.
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Luvers
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:28 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Oh come on. Acid's post was a big fuckin' nothing burger that danced around a hundred different things and avoided answering the question Sedition posed to him, so yes of course it's gonna get ignored and he's gonna get pressured to stick to the subject. JAQing off and trying to control the conversation isn't nearly as clever as some people think it is.
It was certainly a long post that meandered around but I would not quite call it a nothing burger, there were parts one could unpack. I was also not agreeing with him, was trying to transform his rambling into a concise point.
BastardHead wrote:
A bunch of TERF shit that I have a sneaking hunch you're about to defend.
How could I defend it if I do not know what it even is exactly? I know she made tweets regarding transgender issues about something but since I view Twitter as the absolute nadir of online existence, I will remain out of the loop on its topics. Once again what exactly did she write?
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Last edited by Luvers on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonpo
Hyperc6l6mb6wler

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:31 pm 
 

"I'm not going to go read the thing, and I literally write-off the entire platform the thing was posted on, but could you spoon-feed me the thing so I can still participate?"

That's you. That's how you sound. Either do your own research or agree that you can't contribute. God damn.
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Luvers
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:37 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
"I'm not going to go read the thing, and I literally write-off the entire platform the thing was posted on, but could you spoon-feed me the thing so I can still participate?"

That's you. That's how you sound. Either do your own research or agree that you can't contribute. God damn.
Or you could just respect that someone dislikes something and instead of being critical you could be nice and provide the answer? I very much wanted to know the specific part that was bad, so asking the one who is making the claim to point that out is more effective than having nothing to contribute but contempt.
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Jonpo
Hyperc6l6mb6wler

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:41 pm 
 

I couldn't possibly have less respect for you or your "dislikes". You are ACTIVELY refusing to read the same information that you want to be supplied to you. It's madness. This thread is absolute madness.

But then, again, that's a perfect microcosm for the state of things.

Edited out the last sentence so as not to upset droneriot.
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Luvers
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:49 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
I couldn't possibly have less respect for you...
Right! And that is the problem. Perhaps you should have some respect.
Jonpo wrote:
You are ACTIVELY refusing to read the same information that you want to be supplied to you
That is where you are wrong, I will happily read whatever someone offers me. I thought I was clear about it but I guess not. I do not do Twitter, never have and never will, so I am not exactly on the up and up on where exactly to find the tweets in question. Like I wrote before you can be a respectful person who simply provides the answer to the question someone has or you can be a disrespectful person...
Jonpo wrote:
Another for the Foe list.
That is your call.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:53 pm 
 

Can y'all stop derailing the thread, and let Acidgobblin actually respond to the question?
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Acidgobblin
Literally a puppy

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:29 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
Can y'all stop derailing the thread, and let Acidgobblin actually respond to the question?


I'm actually really reluctant to do so. Particularly given the rudeness and what I would say are textbook bigoted comments by Sedition.

If you doubt that certain views are simply intolerable to the left, just read some of the reactions to what I've said in this thread. I've certainly not said anything racist, bigoted or alt-right, nor have I been rude or impolite to anyone. I've just said a few things and been reacted to as if I am saying that. This is only a metal forum and the effects of a topic like this are inconsequential, but consider that this conduct is indeed happening more broadly in society. That is what I consider to be a problem.

Have a look:

BastardHead wrote:
Shut the fuck up about statues jesus christ.


Maybe not directed at me. But effective enough regardless.

Jonpo wrote:
That's another one for the Foe list.


I asked about a statement this guy made. Now I'm the enemy.

Morrigan wrote:
I am very smart!


I wrote a post about free speech, and was treated to a paragraph of sarcasm. I wasn't the one who got personal . . .

Morrigan wrote:
Not worth discussing anything with someone too stupid to acknowledge basic fucking reality

We don't even live in the same goddamn universe


...and then got abusive. That was when I addressed the sarcastic post. I tried to be non-confrontational, too.

Jonpo wrote:
I'm not sure if y'all missed the part where Acidgoblin asked me for VIDEO or PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE of lynchings? Another universe about covers it.


Doubling down, I see. Nice.

Sedition wrote:
I'd love a rundown of a few things that you think fall on this list, because it sounds suspiciously like a white dude complaining that there are consequences for open bigotry.


This is the question I am kind of answering. Note the racism there. I'm not white, but he's assuming that I must be because he knows what I value based on, what, race? This is a great example of stifling a discussion on racism by totally being racist yourself.

Sedition wrote:
That's a nice wall of text you've got there. It would be a shame if someone pointed out that it doesn't answer or even address the question posed.

So let's try this again. See if you can keep up this time.

What are some things that you believe that "the Left" and "Cancel Culture" won't allow you to say on penalty of being a 'bad guy' (or whatever your silly formulation was)?


When I answered the question, I mustn't have said the right things so he rejoined with this post.

***

Of course, anyone is welcome to say and think what they want, but I do draw the line at folks claiming the left is tolerant of different opinions and encourages diversity of viewpoint; when discussing the tenets of leftism and progressive ideals, that is demonstrably not the case. Consider what I've babbled on about in this topic and than really consider whether my claim that certain opinions renders one a 'bad guy or whatever my silly formulation was' stands. I think it clearly does.

This is something that is occurring in the halls of actual power and knowledge, in areas that matter and to people and opinions that matter. On the scale of society, shutting down open dialogue removes our best alternative to violence and I think doing that is shortsighted.

Anyway, I've tried to answer the question again. Not sure I will have anyone convinced but that's the best I've got. I'm not trying to be mean or ppoint the finger at people; I even understand the reactions given the narrative most of us consume 24/7 these days. Still sucks though and we have to do better.
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Five_Nails
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Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:34 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:34 am 
 

How about we take a breather for a bit and see some bits of how comedy has aided free speech, maybe even some context about how sometimes an envelope can be pushed rather than just torn.

In a time of 'obscenity laws' in the United States, a man named Lenny Bruce took a routine up to the Illinois Supreme Court: https://law.justia.com/cases/illinois/supreme-court/1964/37902-5.html

He would later be beaten by New York cops and arrested for obscenity. He lost in New York.

Let's look at George Carlin, his "Seven Dirty Words" routine
Spoiler: show
went to the United States Supreme Court because it was aired on a radio station due to FCC rules:https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/438/726/

It seems speech was moving to be a little freer.

Then we get into the latest era (obviously I'm not getting everything across at all right now), one of democratic speech across a massive worldwide multimedia platform given to us by endless interconnectivity, one after a burst of the envelope where offensive comedy had become the norm and long after even SNL had Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase saying racial slurs to each other:
Spoiler: show


Michael Richards went off saying the n-word:
Spoiler: show
. Dave Chappelle had a good bit on this one:
Spoiler: show
South Park had a good episode on it too, still it didn't make the vocal groups calm down.
Spoiler: show


Don Imus said "nappy headed hos" and the media ran off with it even though it wasn't the most offensive phrase in the bit here.
Spoiler: show
Best thing is, this was on MSNBC, that channel veers quite a bit left here and there. Again, race was the issue and that is the hot button issue that actually pertains to this thread and plenty of the unrest happening now. Finally, comedy had touched a nerve that had already seemed numbed, but in this instance it became obvious that race is the thing that really sticks out and gets under peoples' skin, pardon the pun.

Listening to comedians talk about that situation then, there were plenty saying that the "sensitivity" thing would calm down, that the "pendulum" would swing back and people would end up laughing again at things that offend them like they did when Dice:
Spoiler: show
was on the stage. Some comedians then honestly thought that people would realize that making ridiculous jokes and saying outlandish things on stage in a comedic context would come back.

Still, the comedic landscape is now set up so that comedians tell their truth in their sets and while that was a common thing with Lenny Bruce in his later years, even more obvious in Carlin's philosophical rants in his later years, and became a norm that made people like Louie CK seem so honest even as he got cancelled
Spoiler: show
there has to be some kind of step back to understand that exaggeration is there to supplement the material. Some have to be incredible characters just to show that they're not actually believing what they say, others are so truthful that their jokes muddy the line between funny and fact. Nuance exists though even in fuckery.

Don Imus, sure he's not a stand up comedian, his show wasn't a news show either. The guy poked fun at things and he said, "Nappy headed hos" on the radio. He was cancelled. He didn't do much more than go for a joke that obviously bombed considering the outrage. All-the-rage became the outrage-of-the-day and it's more obvious considering his obituaries were as much about his bombing joke and firing as they were about his decades of a career in broadcasting. God forbid you do any good if you make a joke for less than a minute that people don't like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imus_Ranch

So was Shane Gillis because a vocal group of Twitter detectives decided to find dirt on him. You know what they found? They found him joking about how people years back would have wrongly wanted a group of people away from their part of town on a podcast from years before he even had a chance at SNL:
Spoiler: show
.

Meanwhile, Jimmy Fallon is apologizing for blackface from 20 years ago: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/06/jimmy-fallon-blackface-apology, Kimmel pretends The Man Show never existed lest he be attacked by the mob, and all I'm wondering is where is there a difference right now when people are trying to wipe out people who make a joke as earnestly as they're trying to shout down anyone they disagree with? It's happening in plenty of places and in this thread it's obvious that "free speech" doesn't matter because this this thread has nothing to do with George Floyd whatsoever anymore. A couple of weeks ago I saw this thread turn into how to remake the world into different political visions and it's still going on. It's endless splitting:
Spoiler: show


So why not have a laugh at a video or two here since you folks obviously have no clue about what you're talking about anymore before your next crusade that changes nothing because this is a forum dedicated to enjoying heavy metal music and this section of it is about any minutiae beyond even that basic goal?

Meanwhile, The Kids in the Hall still has a bit that stands up so well now because it makes fun of absurd notions of offense while showing offense to the point that it'll end up being cancelled because I just mentioned it now:
Spoiler: show
. "I'm sorry, it's just naked fat black crippled dykes are hard to find." Take this to Twitter and cancel a show with cross-dressing characters that's been off the air for 26 years. :P

So, at the end of all this, really, what is this talk of how to "govern" "free speech"? You either outlaw words or don't, but don't pretend like you're standing for free speech by not letting a moron get on his soapbox. Any moron can do stand up comedy, he will probably fail and get booed off stage. If you saw a moron yelling in the street you'd probably pass him by anyway. Ignore this moron too, because I'm sure you're all too angry to enjoy a bit of levity between points and won't get my idiotic point anyway. Let people say what they fucking want! If you want to complain, I can bring you over to a dozen old women who will hear you out while you change nothing because speech doesn't need to be changed, beliefs already are changing and have been for decades.

Look at what Columbia did with Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran at the time:
Spoiler: show
and really the worst part about it was that the president of the college who introduced him actually admonished the president of a sovereign country that the college invited for a "dialogue":
Spoiler: show
. If anything, that sort of arrogance gave more credence to Iran's animosity toward the U.S. as opposed to creating an "open dialogue". The crowd was doing what a crowd does, heckling is a given in the U.S. The president of Columbia could have shown some sort of decorum, or just said "here is the president of Iran, I disagree with him but I'll let him speak". He didn't, instead he decided to try to eviscerate the guy before giving him a chance to speak. He had to talk down to him in such an arrogant fashion that it just made him look petty. This was a pathetic display on either side and by the way, this was over a decade ago. Great way to show a free exchange of ideas and the best of the West.

If you want to have someone make a mockery of themself, give them a soapbox. Don't admonish them before they get on it, do it after they spout some stupid. They'll do it on their own, like what I'm doing right now to myself because I'm sure the angle, descriptions, and context I'm bringing is going to be horrifically eviscerated in this very toxic thread.

Or maybe you folks could just bring this thread back to being about the guy who died instead of using this as your soapbox too?

Really though, this thread should have been locked weeks ago.

It's gone. . . Simple Jack:
Spoiler: show


Adios
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Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:14 am 
 

Acidgoblin, twice you've been asked a simple, direct question, and twice you have evaded actually answering it. So, I'm going to pose the question one more time.

What are some examples of things you feel you cannot say for fear of "cancel culture" or being labelled a "bad guy"?

I am asking you to provide specific, concrete examples of speech you think is being unfairly "silenced" by the Left. I'm not asking for your critique of critical race theory. I'm not asking for airy fairy blather about epistemology. I'm not asking for bleats of pain and howls of persecution at the horror of facing sarcasm on the internet. I'm asking you to put your cards on the table and clearly state some of the opinions you feel you are not allowed to express on account of the Left's alleged intolerance for free speech.
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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:15 am 
 

Why would he? We were rude!

Reactionaries love calling for civility because it's super easy to sneak pernicious ideas into polite conversation and liberals constantly fall for it because they believe in a value-neutral system where good ideas always win out over the bad ones if they're exposed openly despite that very clearly not being reality. One is insidious, one is naive, both lead to the same result.
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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:55 am 
 

Acid claims to support freedom of expression, gets mad when people call him out on his bullshit. Seen this before so many times.

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Methuen
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:11 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
Sedition wrote:
I'd love a rundown of a few things that you think fall on this list, because it sounds suspiciously like a white dude complaining that there are consequences for open bigotry.


This is the question I am kind of answering. Note the racism there. I'm not white, but he's assuming that I must be because he knows what I value based on, what, race? This is a great example of stifling a discussion on racism by totally being racist yourself.


Once we're done hounding Acidgobblin into listing his preferred social blasphemies, could we have an answer to this one, too ?

I'm keen to understand what about his posts made you 'colour him in', so to speak ?

Do think carefully about that - there really are two answers only - one is "I didn't think that through, I was all het up with arguing on the internet like a teenager". (we can all forgive that, we all do it). The other is "I'm a nasty little racist on top of the anti-Semitism".
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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:25 am 
 

"you sound suspiciously like" =! "you are"

This diversion is a total non-sequitor anyway because

A) It's not racist in the first place and if you ask me to explain why I'll personally walk to your house and fart in your mouth

B) Do you think racism doesn't exist in non-white communities? Do you think PoC are completely immune to saying racist shit? Bro there is a rampant hatred for black people in hispanic communities, especially around here. I didn't know that until I left my all-white bubble as a teenager but it's true! If Acid isn't white, that doesn't mean the stuff he's afraid to say isn't bigoted, and it's a transparent attempt to veer the conversation away from the topic at hand to focus on that one line from him when he's been showing his hand so clearly everywhere else.

He could very well prove us all wrong if he just piped up and said what it is he's so afraid of, but since he keeps dancing around it we really don't have a choice except to read between the lines, and between those lines it just looks an awful lot like "I don't want to be called out for saying bigoted things". If he's not a bigot and is just worried about crossing lines he's unsure of, it could be a learning experience and he could correct himself for the future. If he is a bigot then well, sucks to be him, he's gonna get clowned on.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:57 am 
 

There is no greater animosity on earth than the one between Asians from different countries.

Also, really trying to figure out how calling someone white is racist. At worst it's an error.
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Methuen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:15 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
"you sound suspiciously like" =! "you are"

This diversion is a total non-sequitor anyway because

A) It's not racist in the first place and if you ask me to explain why I'll personally walk to your house and fart in your mouth

B) Do you think racism doesn't exist in non-white communities? Do you think PoC are completely immune to saying racist shit? Bro there is a rampant hatred for black people in hispanic communities, especially around here. I didn't know that until I left my all-white bubble as a teenager but it's true! If Acid isn't white, that doesn't mean the stuff he's afraid to say isn't bigoted, and it's a transparent attempt to veer the conversation away from the topic at hand to focus on that one line from him when he's been showing his hand so clearly everywhere else.

He could very well prove us all wrong if he just piped up and said what it is he's so afraid of, but since he keeps dancing around it we really don't have a choice except to read between the lines, and between those lines it just looks an awful lot like "I don't want to be called out for saying bigoted things". If he's not a bigot and is just worried about crossing lines he's unsure of, it could be a learning experience and he could correct himself for the future. If he is a bigot then well, sucks to be him, he's gonna get clowned on.


darkeningday wrote:
There is no greater animosity on earth than the one between Asians from different countries.

Also, really trying to figure out how calling someone white is racist. At worst it's an error.


Yes that could absolutely be an error - which is part of why I'm asking, and not just revving up the outrage bus.

Sedition suggested that the guy was white, based on some words on a screen. Turns out he isn't. He's asked for an answer to the supposition twice now, and been ignored. There's plenty to (potentially) unpack there in terms of stereotyping, presumptions / assignment of behaviour and type, projecting prejudices, and then you can play intersectionality bingo and go for a 'denial of agency' jackpot. I'm just curious what Ms. 'Stalin was right' has to say.

I'm not asking you guys to explain - I don't think I've seen you called out for racism (of different types now, which is fun) several times in one thread.

Yes I get that non-white folks can be racist. I grew up in a mixed family in an incredibly mixed area in the UK - Fun memories of (it turns out) taking the wrong kind of Sri Lankan guy to the (it turns out) wrong kind of Indian restaurant :)

You guys should definitely try to get a little bit of Indian cricket coverage - you think cricket is all cucumber sandwiches and blazers like in the UK ? The Big Bang Theory parodied the absolute torrents of abuse via Rajesh, but it doesn't touch on the reality :)
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:48 pm 
 

Acidgoblin is very typical. Defends platforming of racists under the name of "free speech", gets called out for the massively spurious arguments, whines about uncivil tone, "so much for the tolerant left", and STILL refuses to address the initial question.

Is it small wonder than "the left" has no patience dealing with dishonest concern trolls when it's clear they are not here in good faith? Jesus.
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Luvers
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:05 pm 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
I'm actually really reluctant to do so. Particularly given the rudeness and what I would say are textbook bigoted comments by Sedition.
Do you even internet? Being rude when sitting behind a box has become part of the fabric to the internet experience.
Acidgobblin wrote:
If you doubt that certain views are simply intolerable to the left, just read some of the reactions to what I've said in this thread. I've certainly not said anything racist, bigoted or alt-right, nor have I been rude or impolite to anyone. I've just said a few things and been reacted to as if I am saying that. This is only a metal forum and the effects of a topic like this are inconsequential, but consider that this conduct is indeed happening more broadly in society. That is what I consider to be a problem.
Not directly answering a question someone has posed to you on a few occasions is rude and impolite. I am going to take a stab at your silence and state that you are afraid to reveal your answer because, on some level, you know that what you would reveal is deserving of being shut down. Because you do not know how to properly defend it once it has been identified for what it is, you have but one option to protect your perspective and that is to NEVER reveal it...
Acidgobblin wrote:
Sedition wrote:
I'd love a rundown of a few things that you think fall on this list, because it sounds suspiciously like a white dude complaining that there are consequences for open bigotry.
This is the question I am kind of answering. Note the racism there. I'm not white, but he's assuming that I must be because he knows what I value based on, what, race? This is a great example of stifling a discussion on racism by totally being racist yourself.
Not at all. While SHE may have incorrectly implied your skin color, that does not make the statement racist. Jeez...

RACISM: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized." or "the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another."
Acidgobblin wrote:
Of course, anyone is welcome to say and think what they want, but I do draw the line at folks claiming the left is tolerant of different opinions and encourages diversity of viewpoint; when discussing the tenets of leftism and progressive ideals, that is demonstrably not the case.
This is not the case here at all, no one is discussing the tenets of leftism or whatever, all anyone wants you to do is reveal what you feel are things you could say that others would proverbially headhunt you over.
Acidgobblin wrote:
Consider what I've babbled on about in this topic and than really consider whether my claim that certain opinions renders one a 'bad guy or whatever my silly formulation was' stands. I think it clearly does.
NO! Instead of giving us clues and leaving your words as mysterious, realize you are not compelling enough to try and remain an enigma. This is not exactly Ten Little Indians here...
Acidgobblin wrote:
Anyway, I've tried to answer the question again...
No you have not. I can make it easier for you, will even spell out EXACTLY how you can start your proper answer:

"I believe "the left" and "cancel culture" will not allow me speak freely and would try to cancel me out if I were to (fill in the reason here)"
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OzzyApu
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:29 pm 
 

I can't speak for Acid but I do sort of understand what he's trying to get at.

I know in my life, when it comes to anything Islam, serious criticism can also be shut down as nothing but Islamophobia. I'm not talking about the lame arguments like, "islam is ruining european purity" or "muslims are dogs" - stuff like that deserves to be shit on and the people who say that deserve getting shit on, as well. We all agree Islamic terrorism is horrible and fundamentalism stinks, but I'm talking about speaking out on Islam's brainwashing of cultural domination, xenophobia, female degradation, archaic rituals, oppression, and inane beliefs that a lot of Americans have never actually lived through. It's not always outright - often times it's so subtle you aren't able to tell at first. I sure didn't notice when until I got older.

Criticizing countries like Pakistan's laws for in fact being a cesspool of sharia garbage led by a bloated, corrupt corpse of a government taking US money with one hand while allying with the PRC against democratic policies. I won't deny that I clearly detest Islam in many ways, but I feel there is a difference between where I'm coming from and irrational anger a person attacks with even though they don't normally interact with muslims.

I say this as a Pakistani-American who has lived it, was born a muslim and was one for the first ~20 years of my life. Do you think I'd get the same leeway if I wasn't the same ethnicity or (at one point) religion? I try bringing this up in my own community of muslims and I get called everything you can think of: kaffir, haram-zadeh, mir jaffar, etc.. The close-mindedness to not even question their religion is baffling.

Imagine a public figure saying what I've said, or someone in a high enough position to be boycotted, canceled or shut down. I could absolutely see it happening to them. I could see it happening to me if I put it on social media.

I dunno, just throwing that out there.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:45 pm 
 

It seems to really depend on who is doing the criticism and for what purpose. There's nothing wrong with criticizing Islam, it's just that people have gotten used to the folks doing the criticism having malicious or ulterior reasons for doing so, usually because they dislike or distrust the people, are trapped in some form of "othering" brought about by racism and/or ethnocentrism/supremacy/xenophobia, or want to use it as a whataboutism to excuse away criticisms they're facing in a conversation... or all of the above.

That may not be the case for you, but I can understand the knee-jerk reaction people may have towards it.
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:41 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
...it's just that people have gotten used to the folks doing the criticism having malicious or ulterior reasons for doing so


Yeah, I definitely have been guilty of being an ass hole to somebody simply because their arguments seem similar to those with ulterior motives. Hard not to do. :/

I think this is the big problem with the Trump administration and his racist followers when it comes to immigration. It's not true with everyone, but for a lot of people, rationally discussing ways to limit the number of immigrants coming into the country is basically seen as a dog whistle to white supremacists, and it's because of how the Trumpies have framed the conversation. Instead of talking about immigration as a more abstract idea within the context of wages/jobs/population growth/etc, they simply demonize a group of people as the malicious invaders "bringing their rapists" [some of them are good people]. It literally defeats any rational discussion we could possibly have as a nation about immigration, because at this point everyone in favor of tougher immigration laws is seen as racist, and everyone who isn't is seen as someone who just wants open borders, when the vast majority of people probably are somewhere in between these two stances.



Anyways- no idea what any of this has to do with George Floyd/cops/etc, so I'll just share a bit of some local news that's been going on:

There's this fuckwad with a small coffee shop that is located not too far from my house. I obviously think it's pretty neat to have your own coffee business that's supported by the local community, but unfortunately he's also a complete nutbag. For the entire time he's been there, he's had this stupid sign up that says "PRAY" right on his front window sill. I mean- cool, you do you buddy, I'm not personally religious but I do understand people find value in faith, so whatever.

Then, like 6 months or something ago, he put a cemented American flag right outside his little shop. Now, again- cool, you do you... but I have to say, it looks a little silly. The scale of a giant American flag on a ~25ft pole next to the smallest fucking coffee shop is absolutely ridiculous. But I got nothing against the specific act of waving an American flag- I even got one outside, albeit I didn't cement it into the fucking ground and wave it on a 25ft pole (got some neighbors that did though).

Then the whole George Floyd thing pops up, and right below his American flag he puts up a "thin blue line" flag. Now this is where I start seriously cringing. Not only do I have to interact every day with people either wearing t shirts or driving by with a bumper sticker of this flag, but this jackoff decides to put it up right in the middle of one of the biggest protests for racial justice the country has ever seen. For those that don't know, here's what it is. From the article:

wikipedia wrote:
The "thin blue line" is a term for the police that is used to assert that they are the line which keeps society from descending into violent chaos.


So, and correct if I'm wrong- what that means is that people who buy into this bullshit think that all people are essentially violent at heart and will burn their local communities down if it wasn't for the actions of police officers. Not only is that an incredibly cynical view of human beings, but it simultaneously seems to back up the viewpoint that the current militarization of police officers is justified, and that their authority should be obeyed no matter what degree of violence they use on the public for whatever reason. Seems pretty anti-liberty to me, which is ironic, because I thought rightwingers were all about liberty.

So anyways, just a few days ago, jackoff with the coffee shop got his blue flag stolen and his shop was "vandalized". I put "vandalized" in quotes because it wasn't exactly the worst thing ever. Someone wrote "fuck you" in relatively small writing at the front of his window (his coffee spot has no sitdown area, it's just a drive thru window). But this triggered the fuck out of not only him, but every ass hole with a chip on their shoulder and a hard on for the police.

So now he's got like 10 or 15 thin blue line flags that were donated, and he propped them up all around his shop. It looks ridiculous, like a fuckin NASCAR speedway with a small coffee shop at the center. The dude has completely lost his mind, lost all sight on how he looks and how much of a target he's probably making himself.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:14 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:

Yes that could absolutely be an error - which is part of why I'm asking, and not just revving up the outrage bus.

Sedition suggested that the guy was white, based on some words on a screen. Turns out he isn't.


Sure, it's just, "some words on a screen"...if you operate as if every interaction takes place in a vacuum. This isn't how any of this actually works. People have backstories. They have acquired experience. These arguments don't spring ex nihilo from the void. They have antecedents. We know who typically advances those arguments. We know who derives the principal benefit of the logic of those arguments; and we know whose interests are served by those arguments, regardless of the lips they pass forth from.

Quote:
He's asked for an answer to the supposition twice now, and been ignored.


Mighty bold of him to demand answers when he evades answering himself.
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~Guest 454771
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:12 pm 
 

The thing about police worshipers is that they don't actually believe in liberty or freedom, they just don't know how to talk about their views and feelings in any other terms. What they want is to be dommed by authority figures, which obviously is the opposite of wanting freedom. And they want others to be mercilessly brutalized by state authority, which is definitely the opposite of wanting freedom, but they've been trained to think "freedom" is a euphemism for what they think is good. The term "fascism" often gets flattened to mean any kind of bullying, "socialism" is anything conservatives don't like. It's a dumb direction but this is another case of language evolving... When police worshipers say freedom and democracy, just mentally replace those words with getting dommed by a big man in a crisp uniform.

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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:37 pm 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
I know in my life, when it comes to anything Islam, serious criticism can also be shut down as nothing but Islamophobia. I'm not talking about the lame arguments like, "islam is ruining european purity" or "muslims are dogs" - stuff like that deserves to be shit on and the people who say that deserve getting shit on, as well. We all agree Islamic terrorism is horrible and fundamentalism stinks, but I'm talking about speaking out on Islam's brainwashing of cultural domination, xenophobia, female degradation, archaic rituals, oppression, and inane beliefs that a lot of Americans have never actually lived through. It's not always outright - often times it's so subtle you aren't able to tell at first. I sure didn't notice when until I got older.


The atomic unit of propaganda is not lies, it's emphasis.

All of those things you said are true, but the reason I don't focus on it and am immediately suspicious of most people who do is because Islam has precisely zero institutional power in America, where I live. The people here who go on about it tend to be "liberal racist" types like Bill Maher or "I'm just an atheist intellectual but for some reason only complain about brown religions and also am totally in favor of torture and racial profiling" types like Sam Harris. Criticism of Islam requires much more nuance purely because the well has been so thoroughly poisoned, and from my perspective the issue isn't that The Left monolithically loves Islam and shuts down any criticism of it as much that we've seen sensible sounding arguments used to concern-troll us into racism and Forever Wars since god knows when.
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Methuen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:52 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Methuen wrote:

Yes that could absolutely be an error - which is part of why I'm asking, and not just revving up the outrage bus.

Sedition suggested that the guy was white, based on some words on a screen. Turns out he isn't.


Sure, it's just, "some words on a screen"...if you operate as if every interaction takes place in a vacuum. This isn't how any of this actually works. People have backstories. They have acquired experience. These arguments don't spring ex nihilo from the void. They have antecedents. We know who typically advances those arguments. We know who derives the principal benefit of the logic of those arguments; and we know whose interests are served by those arguments, regardless of the lips they pass forth from.


I missed that - but surprise surprise, it turns out that 'Option three - doubling down' was there after all. Life's too short, I hope you enjoy your intellectual bunker :lol:

BastardHead wrote:
OzzyApu wrote:
I know in my life, when it comes to anything Islam, serious criticism can also be shut down as nothing but Islamophobia. I'm not talking about the lame arguments like, "islam is ruining european purity" or "muslims are dogs" - stuff like that deserves to be shit on and the people who say that deserve getting shit on, as well. We all agree Islamic terrorism is horrible and fundamentalism stinks, but I'm talking about speaking out on Islam's brainwashing of cultural domination, xenophobia, female degradation, archaic rituals, oppression, and inane beliefs that a lot of Americans have never actually lived through. It's not always outright - often times it's so subtle you aren't able to tell at first. I sure didn't notice when until I got older.


The atomic unit of propaganda is not lies, it's emphasis.

All of those things you said are true, but the reason I don't focus on it and am immediately suspicious of most people who do is because Islam has precisely zero institutional power in America, where I live. The people here who go on about it tend to be "liberal racist" types like Bill Maher or "I'm just an atheist intellectual but for some reason only complain about brown religions and also am totally in favor of torture and racial profiling" types like Sam Harris. Criticism of Islam requires much more nuance purely because the well has been so thoroughly poisoned, and from my perspective the issue isn't that The Left monolithically loves Islam and shuts down any criticism of it as much that we've seen sensible sounding arguments used to concern-troll us into racism and Forever Wars since god knows when.


I do agree with that, nuance in discussion is important, and on the same side nothing should be exempt from serious criticism when necessary - cf. the US Police. However, and related to the above tangent - Fear (in social care institutions, local government, the police) of being accused some phobia or -ism or another led directly to the enabling of the below in the UK. Aside of any criticisms of political orientation or religion, the earlier mentioned points about creating an environment of fear-to-discuss can have real world consequences. That such an atmosphere existed / exists in the UK (at least in part) is key to understanding how this happened and continues to happen - rather like with the US police abuses, I imagine - no-one wanted to criticise them openly in the corridors of power for a variety of reasons.

Rape and modern slavery -

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rotherham-grooming-gang-sexual-abuse-muslim-islamist-racism-white-girls-religious-extremism-a8261831.html

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/26/rotherham-sexual-abuse-children

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/leicester-sweatshops-scandal-gone-unchecked-racism-priti-patel/
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:30 am 
 

Quote:
1. The Party for Socialism and Liberation stands for the overthrow, dismantling and complete replacement of the core institutions of the capitalist state, which are the “special bodies of armed men,” namely the police, prisons, military and courts. This core of the capitalist state cannot be reformed into a neutral body. It must be abolished by means of a revolution.

2. The centrality of these violent institutions in capitalist governance is reflected in their gargantuan scale. Combined, the state institutions far outpace any other part of government spending. The sprawling U.S. prison system is the largest in the world, accounting for 25 percent of the world’s prisoners with only 5 percent of the world’s population. It includes 1,833 state prisons, 110 federal prisons, 1,772 juvenile correctional facilities, 3,134 local jails, 218 immigration detention facilities, as well as military prisons, civil commitment centers, state psychiatric hospitals, and other institutions. There are more than 790,000 armed officers across local, state and federal police agencies. The U.S. military is one of the largest employers in the world and even in “peacetime” the United States maintains more than 2 million active-duty service members. The National Guard numbers around 450,000.

3. This vast and sophisticated network of organized violence and coercion exists to defend the private property interests and power of the capitalist class. It is not designed to maintain “personal safety” or “fight crime,” as claimed by the media, school system and political elite. It ensures stability through force and intimidation, and is specially focused on putting down any challenges to their highly unequal and oppressive social order. Every poor or working class person who has ever engaged in a serious struggle for even the most basic things — a strike for better wages, housing for the homeless, better conditions for students, a protest against police brutality, etc — immediately runs into the forces of the capitalist law and the capitalist state. The essence of these institutions cannot be reformed. No law or executive order can change their fundamental class character from institutions on the side of the capitalists to institutions on the side of the poor, working class and oppressed.


How Will the Police be Abolished? A Marxist Perspective
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:51 am 
 

Given the recent line of discussion in this thread, this song seems to be more relevant than ever:
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DeadKid
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:02 am 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
I know in my life, when it comes to anything Islam, serious criticism can also be shut down as nothing but Islamophobia. I'm not talking about the lame arguments like, "islam is ruining european purity" or "muslims are dogs" - stuff like that deserves to be shit on and the people who say that deserve getting shit on, as well. We all agree Islamic terrorism is horrible and fundamentalism stinks, but I'm talking about speaking out on Islam's brainwashing of cultural domination, xenophobia, female degradation, archaic rituals, oppression, and inane beliefs that a lot of Americans have never actually lived through. It's not always outright - often times it's so subtle you aren't able to tell at first. I sure didn't notice when until I got older.

Criticizing countries like Pakistan's laws for in fact being a cesspool of sharia garbage led by a bloated, corrupt corpse of a government taking US money with one hand while allying with the PRC against democratic policies. I won't deny that I clearly detest Islam in many ways, but I feel there is a difference between where I'm coming from and irrational anger a person attacks with even though they don't normally interact with muslims.

I say this as a Pakistani-American who has lived it, was born a muslim and was one for the first ~20 years of my life. Do you think I'd get the same leeway if I wasn't the same ethnicity or (at one point) religion? I try bringing this up in my own community of muslims and I get called everything you can think of: kaffir, haram-zadeh, mir jaffar, etc.. The close-mindedness to not even question their religion is baffling.

I think a portion of the shutting down of the criticism is due to what it gets used for. Some Westerners point out all the bad things about Sharia and Islamic countries solely to stir up opposition or hate towards Muslim immigrants and refugees coming to their own country. Presenting it as if those immigrants are all bringing a regime with them rather than escaping in search of a better life. They scaremonger about how things will get far worse over time, effectively claiming that social progress among Muslim communities in Western countries is running in reverse.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:52 am 
 

I didn't care to click links before, but Trump sending the Janjaweed to Portland made the German news today, so now I know about that story. And that's seriously messed up.
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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:25 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Acidgoblin is very typical. Defends platforming of racists under the name of "free speech", gets called out for the massively spurious arguments, whines about uncivil tone, "so much for the tolerant left", and STILL refuses to address the initial question.

Is it small wonder than "the left" has no patience dealing with dishonest concern trolls when it's clear they are not here in good faith? Jesus.


Look at it this way. If you just read what I wrote and draw the conclusions you do, there is no way I believe you are approachinng this in good faith yourself. You demand that I answer while denigrating me as a "concern troll" and describing what I'm writing as "whining" and whatever. You're insane if you think that makes me inclined to answer or generates a solid conversation. Making assumptions and throwing out ad homs are hardly good faith tactics. I actually understand why you are doing this as I feel the same cynical inclination towards those I perceive as bad actors but that's not an inclination that one wants to really engage too readily. That said, I re-read what I wrote and its pretty solid waffling for the majority of it so I'm shouldering a large proportion of the burden here. My apologies, I can't really edit my stuff very well.

I'm not going to address all the comments people have made because much of it seems unrelated to what I wrote, and I've no inclination to answer people who have been rude. I make an exception for the owner of the website though.

Here is a list of a few things that the left tend to cancel/attack/silence people for. List is incomplete and some things are of higher virulence than others.

1. Criticism of Islam on theological and cultural grounds. Response is usually that one is a racist or bigot.
2. Stating that biological sex is real. This gets conflated with transphobia.
3. There are differences between women and men and this manifests in many ways, including the type of activities women and men prefer doing and has real-world, demonstrable effects that cannot always be assigned to inequality or power structures. This can be dismissed as misogyny.
4. Data does not support the idea that American cops are racist and killing black people for their race. Its certainly clear that George Floyd was brutally killed by an evil man, but its not clear that his race was the catalyst for this or even to what degree race can be implicated. Its important to understand what actually happened but this gets spun into the proponent being a 'white supremacist', even if the proponent isn't white.
5. Antiracist theory, as espoused by Ibram Kendi or Robin Diangelo or BLM, is racist and diminshes the agency of black people. This criticism is literally white fragility and evidence of racism.
6. There are genetic differences between different populations and these lead to different outcomes. To what extent, who knows, but it seems like something we want to figure out so we can address it. Often called scientific racism.
7. Antifa uses tactics that are reminiscent of actual fascism and should be rejected thusly. Criticism of Antifa is often assumed to be the sole motivation of actual fascists.
8. Violent protests are criminal actions and shouldn't be justified. Assumed to be non-supportive of anti-racist protests and therefore pro-racist.
9. Free speech should be extended to all speech, even speech you don't like. Always, it is assumed that one wants to smuggle some hardcore bigotry into the conversation.

I could probably go on. Note that we could get into the nuanced aspects of the above but I've tried to summarise as best I can. I'm totally happy to have any errors I've made above pointed out to me, or reasons why these ideas garner such responses.

You guys may be unable to see this, but my discussing some of these things is due to real concerns about how to make the world better and more fair for more people soon. If we cannot discuss this stuff, we can't be sure we have all the understanding required to resolve our differences. You can't be certain that you're right without knowing what being wrong would look like.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:33 pm 
 

You continue to lose me with the monolithic "The Left" Borg hive mind idea. It's weird that "The Left" is constantly debating and arguing among another if they're supposed to have some shared collective consciousness that makes each and every single member of "The Left" have the exact same opinions about everything. Either the debates and arguments I see are glitches in my neural link to the hive or there's no truth to your idea.
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Unorthodox
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:54 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
Here is a list of a few things that the left tend to cancel/attack/silence people for. List is incomplete and some things are of higher virulence than others.

1. Criticism of Islam on theological and cultural grounds. Response is usually that one is a racist or bigot.

If you say that you think religion is a crock of shit and include Islam in there, I don't think many lefties will disagree with you. The problem is when you start talking about "cultural grounds" in regard to a religion. Sorry- what? What's the cultural grounds of Islam? I've been friends with Muslims from Sudan, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Afghanistan, America, and Bangladesh. They're all culturally different.

Blatant generalizations that stereotype wide swaths of people simply on the premise of religion is... uh... whats the word? Oh yeah- bigoted

Acidgobblin wrote:
2. Stating that biological sex is real. This gets conflated with transphobia.

While I do think some people use the word transphobic a bit too flippantly, which undermines their original goal of calling out bigotry when it's seen, I think most people would agree that biological sex is real. Gender≠sex though. Not only that, but the amount of people that will say shit like "biological sex is real" often don't realize that many people aren't totally XX or XY, and that intersex is a very real phenomenon that does exist. It's not most people, but a significant enough of a percentage of people that it shouldn't be totally discounted or written off as a one off thing.

Acidgobblin wrote:
3. There are differences between women and men and this manifests in many ways, including the type of activities women and men prefer doing and has real-world, demonstrable effects that cannot always be assigned to inequality or power structures. This can be dismissed as misogyny.

Generally, yes, you're correct about this. But for one, that doesn't mean all people act a specific way, it's just that the probabilities of them taking specific interests in certain things are greater depending on their gender. Secondly, the consequences of men and women having more interest in particular activities do shape our society in overtly negative ways for both males and females. For example, being a male in a maternity ward is often a highly negative experience, where being at a tech job as a female is a highly negative experience. A society that has more freedom and liberty for its people would have less hostility in environments where their gender isn't so dominate. Maybe the reality is that this sort of freedom and liberty will never be attained, but either way, I think it's where a lot of lefties are coming from.


Acidgobblin wrote:
4. Data does not support the idea that American cops are racist and killing black people for their race. Its certainly clear that George Floyd was brutally killed by an evil man, but its not clear that his race was the catalyst for this or even to what degree race can be implicated. Its important to understand what actually happened but this gets spun into the proponent being a 'white supremacist', even if the proponent isn't white.

Per capita, according to the statistics that I've seen, they do get killed more often than whites. Now, cops may not explicitly kill them for their race (it's up for debate, I lean more on the side that there are a bunch of racist pigs), but America has a history of putting more police officers in predominately black neighborhoods, which has led to a general "us vs them" environment that African Americans get placed in.

Acidgobblin wrote:
5. Antiracist theory, as espoused by Ibram Kendi or Robin Diangelo or BLM, is racist and diminshes the agency of black people. This criticism is literally white fragility and evidence of racism.

Never heard of em.

Acidgobblin wrote:
6. There are genetic differences between different populations and these lead to different outcomes. To what extent, who knows, but it seems like something we want to figure out so we can address it. Often called scientific racism.

:ugh: go to the FFA thread where we just spent a couple pages talking about this. The gist of it was- yeah, there's differences between people from ethnic backgrounds. But the grounds of which we can base it off of race is very fucking loose, and even looser as time goes on because human beings are becoming more and more heterogeneous.

Acidgobblin wrote:
7. Antifa uses tactics that are reminiscent of actual fascism and should be rejected thusly. Criticism of Antifa is often assumed to be the sole motivation of actual fascists.
8. Violent protests are criminal actions and shouldn't be justified. Assumed to be non-supportive of anti-racist protests and therefore pro-racist.

:wanker:


Acidgobblin wrote:
9. Free speech should be extended to all speech, even speech you don't like. Always, it is assumed that one wants to smuggle some hardcore bigotry into the conversation.

We have more free speech than we've ever had. That's why I can write this and literally thousands of people can potentially read it. That's why Stormfront has a platform now and didn't have one pre-internet.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:00 am 
 

Yeah I always loved the idea that free speech is decreasing and censorship is increasing. There are like a million things you can freely say today that would have gotten you into serious trouble fifty years ago.
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Luvers
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:48 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
4. Data does not support the idea that American cops are racist and killing black people for their race. Its certainly clear that George Floyd was brutally killed by an evil man, but its not clear that his race was the catalyst for this or even to what degree race can be implicated. Its important to understand what actually happened but this gets spun into the proponent being a 'white supremacist', even if the proponent isn't white.
Really? What data would this be? Just data? ... The data I have seen shows minorities are disproportionately targeted by police and the percentage increases drastically when the minority in question are African Americans. I suppose it would be possible for George Floyd's murder to have not been racially motivated but highly improbable. If you are going to argue the position that race is not really as big a factor, perhaps you should point out the one glaring problem with this issue being just about race. You can look as far back as needed to every instance of police brutality towards black Americans and you will seldom, if ever, find it happening to a wealthy black American. Coincidence?
Acidgobblin wrote:
6. There are genetic differences between different populations and these lead to different outcomes. To what extent, who knows, but it seems like something we want to figure out so we can address it. Often called scientific racism.
This is a topic some of us had a few weeks back. Calling it scientific racism is only evidence of brain bending stupidity. If anything, having a clear scientific demonstration of why the differences in humans exist is what will end most of the bigotry we see. Yes a bigot will still go and bigot everywhere but what perspective is more valuable? Empty bigotry with zero justification or uniformed education with demonstrable and unambiguous evidence?
Unorthodox wrote:
:ugh: go to the FFA thread where we just spent a couple pages talking about this. The gist of it was- yeah, there's differences between people from ethnic backgrounds. But the grounds of which we can base it off of race is very fucking loose, and even looser as time goes on because human beings are becoming more and more heterogeneous.
Uh, nope. I actually wrote out a lengthy response but the topic had shifted away from this so I never posted it. Was a little disappointing because I spent a good amount of time writing it. Oh well...
Acidgobblin wrote:
8. Violent protests are criminal actions and shouldn't be justified.
So are violent acts of homicide by cops which can not be justified but get away with it. What's your point?
Unorthodox wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
9. Free speech should be extended to all speech, even speech you don't like. Always, it is assumed that one wants to smuggle some hardcore bigotry into the conversation.
We have more free speech than we've ever had. That's why I can write this and literally thousands of people can potentially read it. That's why Stormfront has a platform now and didn't have one pre-internet.
That reads like a deliberate sidestep of his point. His words basically read as, "I want to be able to say EVERYTHING I PLEASE without so much as a negative glance in my direction for doing so."
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:58 am 
 

I'm not sure why I'm about to waste my time with this but let's give it a whirl.

Acidgobblin wrote:
1. Criticism of Islam on theological and cultural grounds. Response is usually that one is a racist or bigot.


I can sum up most of these with my previous post about how the game is most often given away not with lies, but emphasis. Completely stripped of context, criticism Islam is a completely okay thing because there are a lot of fucked up things about it. The issue is when it's brought up as a cultural failing of every Muslim to not completely reject it and replace it with...?? These talking points are very, very often used to justify wars and racism. Even if the person saying these things isn't necessarily doing it on purpose, they're helping further normalize the idea of a contentious culture war that can only be ended by ending an entire faith and everybody who ascribes to it.

Acidgobblin wrote:
2. Stating that biological sex is real. This gets conflated with transphobia.


It gets conflated with transphobia because it's so frequently conflated with gender. I'll go into this more on the next point.

Acidgobblin wrote:
3. There are differences between women and men and this manifests in many ways, including the type of activities women and men prefer doing and has real-world, demonstrable effects that cannot always be assigned to inequality or power structures. This can be dismissed as misogyny.


I see this line of thinking often referred to as "The Gamer Gene Argument" and I love that. In the context of gaming, it's extremely myopic and implies a biological predisposition towards playing them, instead of asking the much more obvious question of why this is, because it can be pretty easily explained by marketing trends favoring men and boys with this type of thing along with societal trends and expectations. Expanding beyond a simple hobby, this is a common Jordan Peterson rhetorical trick. Take that infamous interview where the interviewers asks him why an overwhelming majority of CEOs are men, and he answers with "Well men and women are different". This puts the interviewer (or anybody trying to respond to somebody using this tactic) in the impossible position of having to either argue that men and women are 100% exactly the same in every single conceivable way (which isn't true) or they have to address the obvious implication that men are simply better at being CEOs on a biological level which can be easily backpedaled from by simply pointing out that you didn't say that (which is true). It's a clever rhetorical tactic and it drives me up the fucking wall when people try pulling this gotcha.

Acidgobblin wrote:
4. Data does not support the idea that American cops are racist and killing black people for their race. Its certainly clear that George Floyd was brutally killed by an evil man, but its not clear that his race was the catalyst for this or even to what degree race can be implicated. Its important to understand what actually happened but this gets spun into the proponent being a 'white supremacist', even if the proponent isn't white.


lol what fucking data doesn't support the idea that minorities are killed/harrassed/arrested at an astronomically higher rate than the racial majority? Luvers covered this pretty well but this one is hilarious to me. It's like being presented with data showing an obvious problem and then responding to "What does this mean and how can we fix it?" with "Nothing because it's not real, next question." This is what Morri was talking about with you not sharing the same reality as her.

Acidgobblin wrote:
5. Antiracist theory, as espoused by Ibram Kendi or Robin Diangelo or BLM, is racist and diminshes the agency of black people. This criticism is literally white fragility and evidence of racism.


Admittedly I can't speak to Kendi since I don't know anything about him, and I'm not the biggest fan of DiAngelo myself because her critique seems to boil down to making everything a personal failing on the part of white people, which ironically erases the structural and systemic issues people are actually upset about, but saying BLM is racist is peak white fragility because bro come on. The core of the movement is "we are human please stop fucking killing us" and the counter to it is "nuh uh you're the real racist lol pwned", explain to me how that's not bad faith bullshittery? The "decreasing the agency of black people" is such a hilariously bullshit argument too because this is the only context I've ever seen it brought up. Emphasis, not lies. It almost always boils down to "some black people agree with the white murderers with state protection so shush". White people absolute love elevating black voices that say black people are stupid/whiny/uncultured like Candace Owen or Bill Cosby or whatever while thinking that disproves the much, much more obvious point that black people are treated like fucking garbage for an overwhelming majority of history and it hasn't stopped. You've said you're not white, and if you're also black then I'm sorry but you're in company with Candace Owen and I think you're a fuckin' moron too.

Acidgobblin wrote:
6. There are genetic differences between different populations and these lead to different outcomes. To what extent, who knows, but it seems like something we want to figure out so we can address it. Often called scientific racism.


A lot of this comes from literal fucking eugenicists so yeah it's racism with a lab coat. Emphasis. Context.

Acidgobblin wrote:
7. Antifa uses tactics that are reminiscent of actual fascism and should be rejected thusly. Criticism of Antifa is often assumed to be the sole motivation of actual fascists.


If you seriously can't tell the difference between fascist and anarchist tactics and violence then I don't know what to tell you. Read a book.

Acidgobblin wrote:
8. Violent protests are criminal actions and shouldn't be justified. Assumed to be non-supportive of anti-racist protests and therefore pro-racist.


The legality of something is wholly separate from its morality. I don't know if this is a uniquely American thing but it also drives me fucking crazy. We (as in the royal We, literally everybody on earth) justify criminal actions all the time if it's the morally correct thing to do. John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry was illegal but if you're going to say it was incorrect because he wasn't doing it as part of a war or he didn't get a permit first or whatever then I'm sorry but you're putting words on a page over human life and that makes you either a heartless monster or a total fucking rube. Fighting back against violent and racist police is morally correct, stabbing your neighbor because he won't stop blasting Chris Brown at 4am is not. Same reason why slashing somebody with a hockey stick will either get you a two minute time out or an assault charge depending on if you're currently playing a game of hockey or loitering outside of a 7-Eleven. Context. Context. Context.

Acidgobblin wrote:
9. Free speech should be extended to all speech, even speech you don't like. Always, it is assumed that one wants to smuggle some hardcore bigotry into the conversation.


Emphasis. Context. This argument is most frequently invoked by bigots who are trying to say bigoted things without any pushback or consequences. A example of free speech I simply disagree with is somebody saying that pineapple is a garbage pizza topping. Somebody saying trans people don't deserve equal rights goes beyond a friendly disagreement and veers straight into either a call for or a condoning of violence against a marginalized group. Others have covered this well already, we very obviously have free speech already because you haven't been thrown in jail for anything you've said in this thread, people have just used their equal free speech to call you an asshole. Jury is still out on whether you're disingenuous or ignorant, but still an asshole. Like Luvers said, this really reads like "I want to be able to say EVERYTHING I PLEASE without so much as a negative glance in my direction for doing so.", but I suspect my point from #3 is going to come into play here because that's reading an obvious implication that you can easily backpedal from.

And just as a parting shot, because I'm not above them:
Acidgobblin wrote:
I've no inclination to answer people who have been rude.


Do you know who understands tone but not content? Dogs. Congrats on taking your big complex human brain and choosing to use it to operate on a level equivalent to that of a St. Bernard.

You haven't said it directly but there are so many IDW trappings in here that I really can't help but be sure that you gobble that shit up and I seriously recommend looking in places where Harris, Peterson, Shapiro, etc aren't around. If you really have good intentions, you're getting fucking duped by bad actors.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:40 pm 
 

Anyone saying BLM is racist is not welcome here.

I'm fucking done with this bullshit.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:14 pm 
 

Well, if you wanna kill some time, read the Wikipedia article on the Warsaw ghetto uprising and apply Acidgoblin's nine points to it. It was violent, so that's bad. They targeted Germans for being Germans so it was racist, too. Some Jews were against it, so that's bad. But people who didn't support the uprising were scorned by those who did, so Jews were the real fascists. Data by really educated scholars who wrote books (then went to jail) also does not support the idea that Nazis were racist and killed Jews for being Jews, and real scientists with like a doctor title or something and a lab in their garage that they call "Truth HQ" say that there are genetic differences between Germans and Jews.
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