Yep, also, lots of those who are escalating are white people who are either a) careless, selfish, useful idiots or b) white supremacist agitators. You got tons of videos out there of white morons trying to smash windows and black people trying to stop them (because they know it would get THEM in trouble).

Shit sucks.


"Fuck the system! Down with the man! [Target gets damaged] ....wait no not like that "


LMAO fuck off


#alllivesmatter horseshit, pretending that systemic racism isn't real, and isn't at the root of this particular problem that disproportionately affects black people.... sounds about white.

While I do see class struggle as the ultimate common problem facing american society today, I've grown over time to realize that systemic racism is the overwhelming issue that destroys the social fabric of the country. A poor white person is far more likely to feel like a police officer is there to protect them, and thus feels far safer in their own community. If that protection feels predatory to a specific group of people, you can't possibly expect that specific group to give two shits about class/taxation/allocation of capital/etc. It's basic Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And so long as those problems exist, there's no way to attack class justice.

That said, I think the problem of racial justice has to be fought bottom up and not top down. We had a black president, we had black supreme court justices, we have black congressmen- and, especially during the Obama era, folks such as myself were completely delusional, thinking that we somehow lived in a post-racial society. For me, the Michael Brown incident in Ferguson was the start of realizing how the top down approach of racial equality had failed. Instead of approaching the problem this way, it needs to be at an integrated localized level. I think Killer Mike's speech yesterday said it best:

There are a lot of issues that have to do with class, but this isn't one of them. It's a race issue. That's just a fact.

If it doesn't happen to wealthy black people, that's because capitalism does shield them through the wealth - but it's not the other way around where the wealth is the reason they're not scrutinized. You can find stories of rich black famous guys getting pulled over and all kinds of shit. Just doesn't escalate because they get recognized or lucky.

Yeah I don't think anyone's trying to conflate the two except maybe Dembo. At least I'm not lol

I'm by no means denying neither the racist motives of the perpetrators nor the disproportionality of black victims, nor that racism is systemic. I'm saying racism, just like sexism, nationalism, etc. is maintained, systematized, by the ruling class in order to maintain its dominance. Thus the solution to those problems must be focused on class.

To say "there are a lot of issues that have to do with class, but this isn't one of them. It's a race issue. That's just a fact", is like saying "there are many species that are mammals, but we aren't one of them. We are humans. That's just a fact." Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Race issues are a product and a symptom of class division, it's a classic divide and conquer strategy.

This short clip of a speech is about anti-semitism in Russia about a hundred years ago. But the essence of it is the same for anti-black racism in the US today:

In a broad sense, yes, class division is the ultimate problem. But the problem with class reductionism is the implicit idea that white folks and POC have it equally as bad as long as they're on the bottom of the totem pole, when that's clearly not the case. It's a great way to alienate potential black allies while also kind of steering the conversation away from the incredibly clear issue at hand right now. The police murdering with impunity is despicable and people are finally getting sick of it, but lets not pretend/imply that white dudes have it equally as bad as black people in this regard simply because they're of the same class.

Good quality stream of all the protests going on right now.

And this vid of the NYC protests/semi-rioting going on.

At the NYC protest today a police van attempted to run over protesters.

https://twitter.com/rob_bennett/status/ ... 9455248385

I never thought Chris Cuomo would nail it so well, but.... yes, every white person needs to watch this

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/05/3 ... ot-cpt.cnn

Thanks for that, he definitely hit it out of the ball park. Crazy how long we've been going in this circle.

If George Floyd had driven a Ferrari and worn a Rolex, the policeman would've assumed he stole all that from Deserving White People and would have ended his life even faster. So class does make a difference, about five minutes or so.

I wonder how many people here praising total destruction would liked it if their own house or working places got burned down by protestors. And how many are out there looting and burning. I bet the majority don't have the gut to do it. It is really understandable what happened but it's not productive to provoke more violence on social platforms from the safety of our non burning homes.

No shit no one would like it, but that doesn't mean you can't understand why they're doing it and commiserate. The only businesses I truly feel bad for are those who own the mom and pop shops. And yeah- some of them are getting taken out, but right now america is going through chemotherapy. Not everything is going to be a well organized, well executed attack.

And also- yeah, I probably wouldn't loot and burn. But that's because the system works for me and I have a lot to lose. If I was in their situation though?

Driving a Ferrari and wearing Rolex doesn't make you part of the ruling class. The ruling class in a capitalist society are the tiny percentage of people who own the means of production to the extent that they own society. And that class learned centuries ago not to flaunt with their wealth. Flaunting is rather characteristic of the nouveau riche and petty bourgeoisie, who neither in American nor global contexts own society.

Historically, especialy during the last century, both the black liberation movement and the feminist movement, as well as national liberation movements, have been socialist to a high degree, since they understood that to solve a problem, you have to attack its foundations, not its symptoms. The bourgeois media outlets and education systems have done a thorough job removing class consciousness in general, including from such movements.

Let's hear from a black woman in two short clips:

I just saw this post, and I think it's a good observation. The thing is though, the country is far more polarized right now than it was back in Nixon's days. People are going to be far less likely to cross lines and vote for Trump or any down ballot republicans than they were during the Nixon era. Not only that, but the whole idea of voting for Trump in the first place was to "bring back their concept of normality", and here we are.

Granted, I definitely think this will rile up already registered republicans to get out and vote, but at worst I see Trump and down ballot republicans winning by the slim margins they did in 2016.

I don't think we will end racism only by ending capitalism. If we don't root out desires of domination on a more broader scale amongst other things, racism and other forms of bigotry will continue.

The people who are worrying about working places and mom and pop stores, I wonder where you've been the last three months. Maybe read up on the news a bit? Mom and pop stores are mostly bankrupt and not that many people have working places anymore. The people you worry about got very little of those trillion dollar bailouts so there's really not that much left for most people to lose.

People judging the protests in terms of morality make no fucking sense lol. It doesn't matter that looting is bad at this point. You don't get to have an opinion on this. I entirely understand the frustration of small business owners and people who just want to get on with their lives. But there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it except preventing conditions that cause such riots in the first place. These protests are the people's final resort because no one is listening to them, and even political "scientists" are content with painting them with the broad "illiberal" brush and perceiving them as an external threat.



I fear this might happen as well Maybe a political leader will step in and promise justice and order to protestors (a la Milošević in Kosovo) but I don't see that happening.

You and I both.

One day you’re gonna have a cop car almost flipped over and a set of helping hands will appear on the car and you’ll look over to see they’re mine. Ready to launch that car into the abyss.

If I didn't have a 2-month old baby to provide for, I'd be at the Boston protests tonight. If anybody here is going, be as safe as you can.

re: Dembo's classist argument
I agree with you on a grander scale, that systemic racism is just a tool utilized by ruling elites to keep the rest of the populace fighting over scraps, but that isn't the issue at play right now. Not when we're dealing with a nation that could not guarantee equal protection under the law, at least on paper, until 1967, and even then with some states and localities not adhering until later.

Well if you can see that racism is systemic and that black people have disproportionately been the victims - including trans black people and women - then we have no real disagreement. I know full well class is a huge issue, and I see it as more of a giant bubble in which many various issues have intersecting threads. I think the racism is built into a system which is also classist. My disagreement was just when you put classism above racism as a cause initially, or seemed to. These cop killings are primarily a race thing because of a long history of racist violence and discrimination. The class thing factors in too. But I think we'd all agree it's complex.

And I forgot to respond to Earthcubed from before... yeah, that can definitely be the case. It seems like a very thorny issue where it's hard to see a path towards change when many don't really want it.

I was at yesterday’s demonstration in Indianapolis for about four hours. The entire time I was there it was peaceful. Friends who stayed after I left confirmed that the police instigated the conflict by tear gassing them.

A great podcaster once said, there's no way to tweet at capitalism or "underlying systemic racism." They are nebulous forces that are far too complex to explain to most people.

Don't have to watch more than 2 minutes of the Floyd video to know who the enemy is here.

Yes. Yes. I cant feel anything but inflamed about this. Its not right. None of this is right. People aren't going to keep sitting still. I hope to god this kicks awake the sleeping beast for real this time.

Looks like the disagreement lies in what you guys would see as the primary problem vs. what I see as the fundamental problem. Sure, changes in attitudes among individual cops, individual cops being prosecuted or fired, some changes in legislation, etc. does something. But what I'm saying is that they are by no means solutions to the problem. That is, the problem will keep showing itself in various ways, including the violent and deadly ones, until change at the fundamental level is achieved. In fact, the root of the problem may even produce something more vicious countering the small scale achievements.

And if this problem keeps being dealt with without class consciousness, it will be much fewer people contributing to it than what could have been, therefore the actions in all forms will be weaker than what could have been, and thus it's much easier for the enemy to counter it, even to the point if making the problem worse than before. And when it's like with this case in the US 2020, when actions of all forms are pretty much completely lacking in class consciousness, the ruling class, which systematize this and many other oppressive, violent and deadly problems, aren't remotely threatened.

And obviously anti-capitalist organizing and spreading of ideas has been done long before Twitter, so I hope the supposed greatness of that podcaster isn't based on that quote...

I wanted to touch on this as I had the notion, but then started seeing reports coming from people saying such things are happening. White men, highly organize, all dressed in black, causing mass and focused destructions, even while actual protestors are telling them not to cause such havoc, they do it anyway, disappear, then the cops are extra pissed and the tear gas and rubber bullets starts flying and the instigators are no where to be seen.

Maybe it's just because I read a lot and have come across a lot of subversive tactics in the books I read, but this kind of thing seems like an obvious thing for any organization to do and actually something all governments do and lots of business too. Its actually a smart thing to do if you are really trying to disrupt shit, so my biggest question is when is our side gonna start doing that? I cant be the first person to have thought of this. How can we do the same to them?

It's not just cops impersonating protesters that are starting the riots. It's also white supremacists from out of state coming in, starting shit, and bailing the moment the cops begin teargassing everybody. The exact reason why the rally I was at yesterday, which had well over 1000 people according to the Boston Globe, did not turn violent is because the police stayed far away from the main protest area. There were staties all around the perimeter, plus city cops across the street. The only time any of them came into the main protest area was when two guys started fighting for some reason, but amazingly it didn't escalate into something worse.

Uh, is there any clear evidence that police officers are impersonating protestors to instigate riots?

At least one was outed by his (ex?) fiance. Plus at least one other instance of a police car being parked and left untouched for hours before a masked dude in tacticool shit randomly came and torched it. Not to mention other shit like Chicago instituting a curfew less than an hour before it was set to begin, raising the bridges, and shutting down public transportation, or the Minnesota police telling the mayor to announce that every arrest was from an out-of-towner before learning that oops that was a lie too. So much other shit that's all blurred together over the last day.

If you can't see what's happening, you're willfully deluding yourself.

Damn that video of Floyd being choked was sickening. In broad daylight.

It's a mixed bag. There's undercover cops in some, white supremacists in others, protestors that are angry. I was watching the live cams I posted yesterday, and you could see plenty of protesters absolutely wreaking havok.

My cousin was also at the protests in LA during the morning/afternoon yesterday. Apparently the LAPD was being a bunch of antagonistic ass holes trying to start shit. They'd speed up really close to protestors and slam on their breaks, or just get out of their car and abandon it in the middle of the street, almost baiting protesters to light it up. They want the violence, they want a fucking battle.

In Denver, a curfew was enacted, and without any sort of warning the cops would start pepper spraying and tear gassing people. No warning that it was past curfew, nothing- just a "let em have it" sort of breakout of cop vs citizen violence.

It seems to be a real mixed bag and new reports come in all the time. I'm still for the protesters doing whatever they can to big corporations and police stations - no sympathy from me. But it sucks that there are these outside forces. It will be some time before we can really parse all that.

It's definitely unclear how many of the white troublemakers are deliberate agitators (either undercover cops or white supremacist agitators) or just useful idiots who aren't thinking things through, but either way, they do real harm to actual black and brown folks protesting because the police is targeting the latter, not the former. You saw many places where black people tried to stop white morons for smashing windows, looting, etc. I can't imagine how frustrating that must be.

The worst part however is the constant focus on the looters, as if they mattered. They fucking don't, really. Black lives matter more than damage to insured property. The global conversation constantly turning to the looting is insufferable. Especially considering many of the small businesses affected by this actually support the protests, so this is basically mostly all bad faith concern trolling.

How about we focus on the fact that these protests and riots are happening because of systemic racism and authoritarian police abuses, AND are getting worse BECAUSE of the same fucking thing? How about we focus on how police response has been absolutely catastrophic all around, and how many protests turned violent BECAUSE of cops not in spite of them? Because so far, from memory of actual verified instances, we've had cops:

• Macing a young child
• Destroying jugs of water and milk
• Hitting the gas on a car that rammed into a barrier and sent protesters behind that barrier flying
• Injuring several journalists and reporters, including those who clearly waved their press pass around and yelled "I'm press" (with cops responding "I don't care")
• Injuring medics
• Injuring a non-protester who was just going home carrying her groceries
• Macing, tazering young, unarmed black people and violently pulling them from their cars
• Using rubber bullets, tear gas, and flash bangs against unarmed, peaceful protesters all over the US

Meanwhile, the armed white supremacists who stormed various state capitols? The anti-lockdown protests openly defying government orders just because they wanted a haircut and not even to protest an actual injustice? Those same guys (and Karens), openly screaming at cops? Cops did nothing. No tear gas, no bullets, no flash bangs, no nothing. You even had a Michigan lawmaker requiring protection not from police, but from armed black citizens, because cops couldn't be arsed to actually protect her.

Fuck the pigs. They might as well wear Klan hoods as uniforms.

The focus on the looters is an example of right wing propaganda and indoctrination - people have got to get out of that.

The cops are fascist fuckheads: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... pyipn4za1w

I keep seeing people bring up MLK in reference to how things "should be done". The truth of the matter is that while Martin Luther King Jr.'s protests were "non-violent" in the sense that they did not seek to harm people, almost ALL of them were illegal. The sit-ins were illegal. Many of the marches were illegal. Using whites-only facilities was illegal.

If a protest is police-sanctioned and follows a pre-approved route, it's not a protest, it's a fucking parade.

@The "it's class, not race" people, realize that capitalism in the United States was built by racism, and is in many ways maintained by racism. The wealth of the country was amassed by slavery and appropriation of indigenous lands into private hands, and even today white people have an easier time getting better jobs than people of color.

No one has been saying that it's not a race issue, but that race issues are a product and a symptom of classes, which have to be targeted for the race issues to be solved.

The guy driving a track into peaceful protesters is another example of how some people want to escalate the situation to the maximum.

Agreed - consuming a bit of US media,it's a great tactic to de-legitimise the protests - "look at these guys burning buildings, you want to change things to appease THEM ?! [insert scary incidental music]". Comparisons to MLK follow, the current protests and protestors are placed as no better than any other destructive criminal, and the insanely over-equipped American police can play with their toys safe in the knowledge that the great masses will put up with it.




I'd be interested to read up on that perspective, as I'll be honest - it doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense to me. Racists in every recorded culture, time, country, and social strata that I've ever read about, speaks to an animal problem, rather than a class problem. I don't see how a classless society gets rid of racism - obviously removes the institutions, structured societal oppression, but I don't see you'd ever get rid of the individual perspective in any natural way.




The line of police shooting at people standing in their houses too - quiet a few people out there are obviously just enjoying the breakdown of normal service. Look at the national guard soldiers out with their armoured vehicles, rifles, tactical-walter-mitty nonesense - those in 'law and order' jobs get to play with all of their toys, which can't happen often, even in America - they're enjoying it.

If you're talking about primal xenophobia as in some underlying caution or suspicion towards the unfamiliar, then sure, "racism" won't go away with classes. But I've always thought such a definition of 'racism' is diluted, since what people usually refer to when calling someone or something racist is much more specific than something which everyone have to a degree. However, the systemic race issues are part of the class system, since they are systematized in order to benefit one class at the expense of another. Since all members of the working class would benefit from liberating work from capital, it's in the interest of the ruling class in a capitalist society to divide the working class so they don't make a united force against them.

Its very clear that class is a huge problem in the whole world, and I see how your trying to think of this, but in america, the thing we are dealing with this very moment concerns race.

Im with you, after we can get people to stop murdering their own citizens because of their color ( as well as revert a long list of other grievances and wrongdoing), then maybe we can discuss the disgusting classism thats affecting the rest of us.
Both of these things need to be addressed for the human world to move on to a better place. But again, the current issue is race and is the first thing we need to deal with. Even if someone felt differently, it doesn't matter, this is whats happening, to not focus on exactly that is distracting.