Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:56 am 
 

Wilytank wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
Iced Earth is somewhat right wing, or at least Jon Schaffer definitely is, and they suck, so that's enough of a connection for me.

Matt Barlow becoming a fucking cop is a hilarious add-on too.


But does he add an aspirant to the end of every word when he reads you your rights?
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
Invocation
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 22
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:36 am 
 

Methuen wrote:
I'm asking that question, as I'd observe that plenty put across a vaguely 'left' (fuck the man, anti-this-or-that) type message through their music, and then want a nice big house, wife & kids, Lincoln to drive (or be driven in) between shows. Both sides of the political loony bin would have a lot to say about that situation.


Methuen wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
I feel like claiming anarchism and nazism are the same isn't the best start for a topic about politics. Last time I checked anarchists didn't murder 17-18 million people.


In raw numbers they're definitely down the league table, but look up some of the syndicalist / anarchist groups in the Spanish Civil War - they had a great time murdering monks / nuns / political enemies / captured soldiers in the usual creative manner adopted by political headbangers the world over.


Why are you trying to push an agenda that the far-left are equivalent to nazis? Killing some politicial enemies during a war for your own survival is hardly the same as attempting to systematically genocide entire races of people. Almost every political ideology has links to atrocities comitted by its adherents, including capitalism and liberal democracy, but nazism is the only one where mass murder is an intrinsic part of the ideology.

Top
 Profile  
InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1533
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:03 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
Why are you trying to push an agenda that the far-left are equivalent to nazis? Killing some politicial enemies during a war for your own survival is hardly the same as attempting to systematically genocide entire races of people. Almost every political ideology has links to atrocities comitted by its adherents, including capitalism and liberal democracy, but nazism is the only one where mass murder is an intrinsic part of the ideology.


I agree with you that all ideologies have blood on their hands (and its good that you mention liberald emocracy because many still think its peacuful and all nice - thats because we are not effected by the wars).

Out of the modern ones the far left has the most amount of bodie on their account (I think you seriously downplay it by saying "some politicial enemies during a war for your own survival" when its over 90 million people worldwide spread out under different communist regimes).

However I don't think any ideology has it as an intrinsic part of their ideological documents that mass murder is what they strive for. There is nothing about exterminating races in ideological national socialism. It sure did end up at that point and it was horrific obviously but it wasn't part of the original program. Originally they really just wanted separation of the races, planning to move the german jews to Madagaskar (which in itself sounds alien to us today).

One can however debate whether the ideology always would lead to mass murder or not but that is hypothetical. Does the racism of national socialism always lead to mass murder? Perhaps! Does the nivellation of men in communicsm always lead to mass murder? Perhaps! But its all hypothetical.

I tend to think that all large movements with clear utopias develop some fractions, some more powerful than others, that think the ends justify the means. That is, they reason humans are ok to sacrifice for the ideal state, utopia, that is to come. And when these people come into power it is always dangerous for individual people as they can be seen as ok to sacrifice for the (supposed) greater good.


Edit:

On anarchism it obviously hasn't as many lives on its record since it was never in power (in whatever way an anarchist movement even can be in power or if that is contradictory to what anarchism is. Would that mean that anarchist getting power becomes something else if they do?).

If we look at history anarchists have however not been very peacful in their small movements (not just in defence) so I doubt the movement would be very nice if it caught on fire and actually became powerful.


Last edited by InnesI on Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
Methuen
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 726
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:07 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
Methuen wrote:
I'm asking that question, as I'd observe that plenty put across a vaguely 'left' (fuck the man, anti-this-or-that) type message through their music, and then want a nice big house, wife & kids, Lincoln to drive (or be driven in) between shows. Both sides of the political loony bin would have a lot to say about that situation.


Methuen wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
I feel like claiming anarchism and nazism are the same isn't the best start for a topic about politics. Last time I checked anarchists didn't murder 17-18 million people.


In raw numbers they're definitely down the league table, but look up some of the syndicalist / anarchist groups in the Spanish Civil War - they had a great time murdering monks / nuns / political enemies / captured soldiers in the usual creative manner adopted by political headbangers the world over.


Why are you trying to push an agenda that the far-left are equivalent to nazis? Killing some politicial enemies during a war for your own survival is hardly the same as attempting to systematically genocide entire races of people. Almost every political ideology has links to atrocities comitted by its adherents, including capitalism and liberal democracy, but nazism is the only one where mass murder is an intrinsic part of the ideology.


I'm not, I was having a friendly conversation with other folks - if you want to have the 'there's no equivalence' conversation, we can do that - Though I'd suggest first you swot up China literally herding people onto trains to be sent to camps for a light spot of brainwashing and sterilisation.

If that's a bit too obvious- maybe read up on the Killing Fields, Katyn Forest, the GULAG system, Holdomor, the Cultural Revolution, Tibet, the Vietnamese Land Reform Programme.

The Nazis talked about doing it, and did it. The various red regimes cited above did it, and then tried their level best to pretend it didn't happen - or where it was obvious, that it was done by someone else, or that it was capitalist lies. The more honest ones would officially criminalise whatever segment of society they were picking on, so that they could dress it up as policing - the Nazis did this too, of course, but it's apparently move believable when it comes from a bloke with a red star rather than a skull on his hat.

That latter aspect - the denial - is present in a couple of others on this board that won't hear a bad word said about Uncle Joe and the boys - you're not another of those, are you ?

My view is that all extremist political types are a bunch of bastards; history bears this out. My conclusion is that all of their philosophies have the same flaw - they leave no room for dissent as a healthy part of society, and therefore ultimately have only one answer for dissent.

My conclusion (also) is that the BLM groups, AntiFa people, your average Norwegian socialist ? None of these are extreme in the slightest, relatively speaking and don't compare. Just in-case you misunderstood given the current climate.
_________________
Methuen at Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
Invocation
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 22
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:09 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Invocation wrote:
Why are you trying to push an agenda that the far-left are equivalent to nazis? Killing some politicial enemies during a war for your own survival is hardly the same as attempting to systematically genocide entire races of people. Almost every political ideology has links to atrocities comitted by its adherents, including capitalism and liberal democracy, but nazism is the only one where mass murder is an intrinsic part of the ideology.


I agree with you that all ideologies have blood on their hands (and its good that you mention liberald emocracy because many still think its peacuful and all nice - thats because we are not effected by the wars).

Out of the modern ones the far left has the most amount of bodie on their account (I think you seriously downplay it by saying "some politicial enemies during a war for your own survival" when its over 90 million people worldwide spread out under different communist regimes).



I was replying specifically to Methuen's point about anarchists during the Spanish Civil War. Obviously Marxist-Leninists are a different story (and they killed a lot of anarchists too by the way) and I didn't mean to include them in that phrase. Sorry, I should have used more precise language.

Top
 Profile  
Unity
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:42 pm
Posts: 1691
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:20 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:

I'm not going to defend the atrocities committed by the Republican faction in times of civil war that happened in 1936 (I'm sure there were a lot, war is fucked up) but it's still not the same and it will never be for one simple reason: no actual anarchist organisation still advocates for the murdering of nuns here. Anarchist organisations here fight for social equality, dignity and Civil Rights. On the other hands, we still have fascist political parties here in Spain that still spew racist messages and are completely fine with the "murdering of lefties". They have even said political opponents should be "shot near a ditch", an usual form of execution in the Civil War. I'm from Spain by the way and my country is still fucked up by 36 years of the fascist Francoist dictatorship. There were 36 years of oppression and murder. A lot of people in here still think those were "the golden years." The fascist party here got 3.640.000 votes in the last election, the 3rd most voted political party. A party that directly quotes Trump and is very nostalgic of the dictatorship, Franco and the murdering of anyone that wasn't white, straight and Catholic. So please, don't tell me it's the same. Not by a long shot.


We have the same crap here in Portugal. We were under a para-fascist dictatorship for 48 years and there are still assholes who say that our dictator Salazar was a "hero" and that "we need him back". Even young people who weren't even born during his time. Under his rule thousands of opponents were arrested, tortured and sent to concentration camps. And believe it or not, right now we have FOUR far-right parties here in Portugal, and one of them is led by a neo-nazi who happens to be a convicted murderer and criminal.
_________________
Stand rigid for the next battle,
Peace means reloading your guns

Top
 Profile  
InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1533
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:26 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
I was replying specifically to Methuen's point about anarchists during the Spanish Civil War. Obviously Marxist-Leninists are a different story (and they killed a lot of anarchists too by the way) and I didn't mean to include them in that phrase. Sorry, I should have used more precise language.


I realized that after I posted as well (hence why I added a small "edit" to that post about anarchists specifically).

Btw I really appreciate your civil tone discussing a subject where many people loose their heads!

Top
 Profile  
Invocation
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 22
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Invocation wrote:
I was replying specifically to Methuen's point about anarchists during the Spanish Civil War. Obviously Marxist-Leninists are a different story (and they killed a lot of anarchists too by the way) and I didn't mean to include them in that phrase. Sorry, I should have used more precise language.


I realized that after I posted as well (hence why I added a small "edit" to that post about anarchists specifically).


InnesI wrote:
On anarchism it obviously hasn't as many lives on its record since it was never in power (in whatever way an anarchist movement even can be in power or if that is contradictory to what anarchism is. Would that mean that anarchist getting power becomes something else if they do?).


In practice, anarchism in power would take some form of extreme direct democracy where we supposedly all take part in worker's councils, factory committees, popular assemblies and other participatory structures. Obviously there's reason to be sceptical that this can really replace the modern nation state and anarchists have never governed that large a territory.

InnesI wrote:
If we look at history anarchists have however not been very peacful in their small movements (not just in defence) so I doubt the movement would be very nice if it caught on fire and actually became powerful.


Anarchist's fondness for smashing things up and fighting the police and their historical record of political assassinations makes the movement/ideology look a lot more violent than it really is. Modern anarchists draw a sharp distinction between property damage and personal violence, that's why many of them are happy to smash shop windows but would never dream of hurting people. Both historically and currently even the most extreme insurrectionist anarchists have also always drawn a sharp distinction between class enemies and the general public, which is why Antifa punch fascists and the Black Bloc fight cops but even extremist anarchist terrorist groups that plant bombs and shoot politicians are very careful to avoid any injuries to the general public. The movement seems to attract people that are simultaneously fans of spectacular violence and rhetoric but also pacifist types that don't like hurting anyone.

InnesI wrote:
Btw I really appreciate your civil tone discussing a subject where many people loose their heads!


Thanks, likewise. :)

Top
 Profile  
Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 237
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:59 pm 
 

Outside of niche scenes like NSBM (obviously fascist) and BDM/Slam (not inherently political, but mired in 4chan-style shock jock buffoonery, though it usually stays just misogynistic), I'd expect most metal bands to lean left if only for the fact that right-wingers by definition aren't terribly creative people. Right-wing attitudes are just antithetical to any art that isn't propaganda.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:12 pm 
 

Contemporary capitalism causes about 20 million excess deaths a year every year. It just buries the bodies deep beneath the indifference.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:20 pm 
 

That's far too low a number and that's really weird considering your regular posts. Almost every "third world" country with average life expectancies below 70 has the exports to fund the minimal healthcare required for an average life expectancy above 70, the profits from those exports however are entirely siphoned off by the foreign corporations doing the exporting, so shouldn't that number be closer to 200 million?
_________________
Why modern black metal objectively sucks
Deutschpunk - Why German Punk Rock Is... Different - [A Zero Budget Documentary]
- (droneriot drinks and rants...)

https://conservativetentacles.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:27 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
That's far too low a number and that's really weird considering your regular posts. Almost every "third world" country with average life expectancies below 70 has the exports to fund the minimal healthcare required for an average life expectancy above 70, the profits from those exports however are entirely siphoned off by the foreign corporations doing the exporting, so shouldn't that number be closer to 200 million?


Possibly. And certainly when you account for the deaths of despair, interpersonal violence, health consequences etc derived from the capitalist mode of production and the alienation it generates, the numbers are much, much higher than what I outline above. Those are just the deaths directly attributable to the Big Three of Famine, Pestilence, and War.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:30 pm 
 

Yeah somehow I hallucinated the word "indirect" into your previous post, but "directly attributable" gets it closer into that ballpark.
_________________
Why modern black metal objectively sucks
Deutschpunk - Why German Punk Rock Is... Different - [A Zero Budget Documentary]
- (droneriot drinks and rants...)

https://conservativetentacles.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:56 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Yeah somehow I hallucinated the word "indirect" into your previous post, but "directly attributable" gets it closer into that ballpark.


I do that shit all the time, and you've got a lot on your mind.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
Methuen
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 726
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:11 pm 
 

Interesting as the segue into attributing statistics is; here's the largest living representation of where political extremism takes you - they're putting people onto trains (bit of a theme, that), the women to the be sterilised, the men just get shot. If they're lucky, instead it's years in a camp somewhere. Reading the quotes from the Chinese ambassador is almost funny in how stereotypically 'communist' he sounds - "no no, there's no train to a camp - we're just moving prisoners". Not even original material :lol:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-53463242/china-s-ambassador-challenged-on-treatment-of-uighurs

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/19/chinas-uk-ambassador-denies-abuse-of-uighurs-despite-fresh-drone-footage

This is why the vast majority of people don't want to be sold political extremism - eventually someone ends up on a train being taken away for some reason or another. (and before someone cites him, let's not forget that Donald won his election because of the peculiar structure of the US system, not because he won a popular vote. That system needs sorting out).
_________________
Methuen at Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:12 pm 
 

I'll believe Western propaganda about Chinese concentration camps when we close our own.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
Methuen
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 726
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:26 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I'll believe Western propaganda about Chinese concentration camps when we close our own.


:lol: :lol: Have you ever considered a job at Russia Today or Fox News ? Much as you wouldn't agree with their content, you'd be a great fit otherwise.
_________________
Methuen at Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1533
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:35 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
In practice, anarchism in power would take some form of extreme direct democracy where we supposedly all take part in worker's councils, factory committees, popular assemblies and other participatory structures. Obviously there's reason to be sceptical that this can really replace the modern nation state and anarchists have never governed that large a territory.


The problem with anarchism is anarchy itself and the opposition of hierarchy. I believe that if a society was truly modelled after anarchism it would quickly transform into a tribal society. People would group together, but perhaps not in the ideal way that most anarchists would like to. In that way I think the right leaning anarchists are more grounded in reality in that they actually realize that this is what probably will happen. And as always might makes right and the stronger parties will rule their tribes and then there will obviously be conflict in between the tribes.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:38 pm 
 

Methuen wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I'll believe Western propaganda about Chinese concentration camps when we close our own.


:lol: :lol: Have you ever considered a job at Russia Today or Fox News ? Much as you wouldn't agree with their content, you'd be a great fit otherwise.


Everyone I disagree with is a Russian bot.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:47 pm 
 

The Chinese government being racist assholes has been independently verified by a lot of non-Western, non-capitalist sources. Chinese supremacy over all things non-Chinese is even in the Chinese Communist Party's program. As much as Western media can be faulted for a lot of extremely ideologically slanted reporting, there are things that are simply the way they are.
_________________
Why modern black metal objectively sucks
Deutschpunk - Why German Punk Rock Is... Different - [A Zero Budget Documentary]
- (droneriot drinks and rants...)

https://conservativetentacles.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5691
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:16 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I'll believe Western propaganda about Chinese concentration camps when we close our own.

Of all the countries to defend as a tankie, at least choose a state that isn't a right-wing capitalist's wet dream.

This is a shameful take, Sedition. :nono:
_________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

R.I.P. Diamhea 1987-2018
Live young, die free. Gone, but not forgotten.

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:20 pm 
 

Not to mention transgender is a "mental illness" in China, so it's the absolute last place to look for allies.
_________________
Why modern black metal objectively sucks
Deutschpunk - Why German Punk Rock Is... Different - [A Zero Budget Documentary]
- (droneriot drinks and rants...)

https://conservativetentacles.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:26 pm 
 

Which non-western, non-capitalist sources would those be? Jihadi media? The "Hong Kong Democracy Movement" (brought to you by the CIA and Foggy Bottom)? Ultra-Lefts and anarchists who can't ever seem to find an actually existing anti-imperialist state that is ideologically pure enough to support against imperial depredations? Philippine Maoists who are (fairly, I must admit) salty about being abandoned by the CPC? Press organs of the fascist Falun Gong?

And yes, I'm thoroughly aware that the Chinese government has problematic aspects, that there is a pernicious thread of Han nationalism running clear back to Mao. That line was an error then and remains an error now. I am, in fact, troubled by aspects of the treatment of the Uighur people by the CPC. State repression of whole ethnic groups is not only indefensible on moral grounds, it is un-Marxist and politically incorrect, in the precise meaning of the term. Not surprisingly, as a queer person, I am leery of the CPC's regressive stance on some LGBTQ issues (though there have been significant recent strides made on that front).

I am also aware that the major commercial and state media outlets in the West are thoroughly corrupt. That they have been and continue to be used to spread distortions, misinformation, and outright lies (recall, for instance, the ways in which the New York Times colluded with the Bush administration on Iraq to gin up a war under false pretenses that has lasted two decades and killed literally millions of people). I am aware that the People's Republic of China is the only viable counterbalance to US global hegemony, and the worldwide bulwark against unfettered capitalist imperialism. I am also aware that the PRC is directly responsible for the greatest reduction of economic misery in human history, having lifted nearly 900 million people out of dire poverty in just the last 25 years. Equally, I am aware that the United States government and its allies, as well as the capitalist ruling class that controls them, have no genuine interest in bettering the lot of the Uighurs or any other oppressed minority, and that any regime change they desire in China will not ease the suffering of the Uighur people, but will merely compound it and add to it the misery of the rest of China's population of 1.5 billion people. Goodness knows the Chinese government ain't perfect, but we cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the good, which is why I and the rest of the PSL supports the PRC in spite of its flaws.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:30 pm 
 

Ah the human lives math again. I'm out. Done it before, and going Thanos will never give you the high ground, but I won't argue it anymore.
_________________
Why modern black metal objectively sucks
Deutschpunk - Why German Punk Rock Is... Different - [A Zero Budget Documentary]
- (droneriot drinks and rants...)

https://conservativetentacles.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5691
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:32 pm 
 

Sedition, 1943: "I'll believe Western propaganda about Nazi concentration camps when we close our own."
_________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

R.I.P. Diamhea 1987-2018
Live young, die free. Gone, but not forgotten.

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:42 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Ah the human lives math again. I'm out. Done it before, and going Thanos will never give you the high ground, but I won't argue it anymore.


Look, if there was a practical way to balance out or cancel the power of the US and world capital without having to hold my nose about the dirty shit that China unquestionably does, I'd be the first one on the train. Unfortunately, that isn't the material reality we live under. Ultimately, there's not a damn thing I can do about the policies of the CPC. Those necessary changes will have to be undertaken by the Chinese people, and it is my hope and desire that they are able to do so. What for sure will not help them or anyone else is supporting the regime change efforts cooked up out of Langley, efforts whose intended goal predictable result would be the return of the world's largest nation to neocolonial slavery.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:49 pm 
 

Actually, people saying "all human lives are valuable and should not be part of big math equations about who gets to live and who gets to die" and "transwomen are women" are not really that different, it's just a matter of doing the hard work of educating enough people about it to accept it as reality. If you think the latter is worth putting in the effort (out of self-interest), why would you not think the former is worth putting in the effort? Just for the lack of self-interest? They're both just basic questions about the value of human lives that humans need to be educated to accept, and they both just take a lot of effort and hard work, so why not stop yourself at the parts with self-interest and actually get interested in going all the way and teach that nobody deserves to pointlessly die or be punished or be imprisoned or have violence enacted upon for ANYTHING?

Or in a nutshell, nobody deserves to die, plain and simple. Nobody who hasn't committed a crime deserves to be put in jail, plain and simple. Go all the way on that, and everybody should.
_________________
Why modern black metal objectively sucks
Deutschpunk - Why German Punk Rock Is... Different - [A Zero Budget Documentary]
- (droneriot drinks and rants...)

https://conservativetentacles.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:37 pm 
 

Man, I get it. You believe that right and wrong are essentially binary. That, "when you lie down with dogs you wake up with fleas." There's some truth to that. I just think there's more truth in, "You gotta do what you can with what you've got." What we've got is China, as it is. We support it—critically—not because anyone deserves to die or to suffer, but because the practical, material result of not supporting it in the face of imperialist attacks will cause more undeserved death and suffering.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us


Last edited by Sedition and Pockets on Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 1685
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:38 pm 
 

China is capitalist. Already in maoism there are ideological foundations for that development due to its view on contradictions, arguably making maoism non-revolutionary and China's restoration of capitalism inevitable.

Methuen wrote:
read up on the Killing Fields, Katyn Forest, the GULAG system, Holdomor, the Cultural Revolution, Tibet, the Vietnamese Land Reform Programme.

I'm getting the impression that you're the one who should read up on those topics, since your views seem to be what most Westerner's views are, which we already get fed via schools, documentaries and textbooks, with highly problematic use of sources.

droneriot wrote:
Chinese supremacy over all things non-Chinese is even in the Chinese Communist Party's program.

Not saying you're wrong, but could you give a more precise reference? Like a quote or where the program says so.

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:52 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Man, I get it. You believe that right and wrong are essentially binary. That, "when you lie down with dogs you wake up with fleas." There's some truth to that. I just think there's more truth in, "You gotta do what you can with what you've got." What we've got is China, as it is. We support it—critically—not because anyone deserves to die or to suffer, but because the practical, material result of not supporting it in the face of imperialist attacks will cause more undeserved death and suffering.

How flat-earther of you to make basic reality an opinion.
_________________
Why modern black metal objectively sucks
Deutschpunk - Why German Punk Rock Is... Different - [A Zero Budget Documentary]
- (droneriot drinks and rants...)

https://conservativetentacles.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:54 pm 
 

Dembo wrote:
China is capitalist. Already in maoism there are ideological foundations for that development due to its view on contradictions, arguably making maoism non-revolutionary and China's restoration of capitalism inevitable.


China is a deformed workers' state, just like the old Soviet Union became. It remains socialist, in that the means of production remain largely in collective state ownership, either openly or covertly. It has permitted the revitalization of the bourgeoisie as a class, but they are not the ruling class in China, so it can't be called "capitalist." To exist within a world system that is inimical to socialism, it has had to make serious (and unfortunate) compromises. It definitely has its problems, and there are certainly fractions within the CPC that recognize that. Whether those fractions can ultimately turn the PRC back toward a more fully "socialist road" remains to be seen.

As for Maoism, it's kind of neither here nor there. China was never "Maoist" as such; Maoism as a doctrine was developed from the theory and praxis of Mao, but Mao himself and the PRC were never "Maoist." That term is properly applied to the Gonzoloite/Third Worldist tendency, influenced by, but not synonymous with Mao Zedong Thought.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:56 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Man, I get it. You believe that right and wrong are essentially binary. That, "when you lie down with dogs you wake up with fleas." There's some truth to that. I just think there's more truth in, "You gotta do what you can with what you've got." What we've got is China, as it is. We support it—critically—not because anyone deserves to die or to suffer, but because the practical, material result of not supporting it in the face of imperialist attacks will cause more undeserved death and suffering.

How flat-earther of you to make basic reality an opinion.


Your abstract ideals are not "basic reality."
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
droneriot
incelgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:58 pm 
 

Basic reality is basic reality. Going Thanos with human lives math, that's abstract ideals, people not deserving to be killed for no reason, that's not abstract ideals. Very simple. Every normal non-indoctrinated cultist gets it, too, because that's just basic reality.
_________________
Why modern black metal objectively sucks
Deutschpunk - Why German Punk Rock Is... Different - [A Zero Budget Documentary]
- (droneriot drinks and rants...)

https://conservativetentacles.bandcamp.com/

Top
 Profile  
Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 592
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:09 pm 
 

Math isn't an ideal or an abstraction; it is a concrete reality. I've had enough of the inter-autist duel for the day. Enjoy your evening man, and I hope things continue to get better for you.
_________________
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)|Our Program/What We Stand For|Liberation News|Join Us

Top
 Profile  
Five_Nails
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:34 pm
Posts: 635
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:18 am 
 

I do love how people who tout the terribleness of all capitalist systems simultaneously downplay the endless exigencies inherent in perceived "bastardized" forms of Communism as though that disconnect could never define the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Maybe, just maybe there are exigencies inherent in any massively implemented system simply because the rosy vision of a perfect society doesn't nor will ever fucking exist. Acting as though there can be a society where people can only act out of collective interest is as dumb as pretending that people can only act out of self-interest. How do you people who understand every inkling of nuance within your preferred political pathway not get something as simple as that? Have any of you fuckers ever had a job where maybe you can put on a face for work for a while and also maybe be yourself at another moment? Have you fuckers even kept a job more than a year or is that just the inherent capitalist talking within me who also spent twelve years in the socialist notion of navigating compulsory school and needing to put on a face to avoid a beating for any attempt at being me as well in spite of how "equal" we all were in that space. Fuck off with this inherent goodness vs inherent evil bullshit tied to political systems that will always end up marred by corruption. There will always be bullying and even worse, corruption will always exist.

Even if everyone gets the same, there will still be dumbfucks as well and there will still be people who try. Communism didn't like those that tried too hard, they were too free-thinking. https://holodomorinfo.files.wordpress.c ... i_text.pdf If that simple reality is so damning a notion to a society, it may as well collapse like the Soviet Union did decades ago.

This thread was supposed to be about right wing vs. left wing bands. Obviously to someone who had been on this site for nearly 15 years I expected it would boil down to shit-flinging between Nazis and Commies. But yet again it is another way to fling shit between people who are either full-Communism or lighter Communism, splitting rather than simply talking about different fucking bands. The simple fact is that the internet Nazis you may be fighting here and there aren't nearly as prevalent, vocal, or cogent as the internet Commies you'll end up calling Nazis but the hard end to both ideologies are still just as horrific.

I was raised by Republicans in a Democrat state, have heard plenty of doublespeak from both sides and really I doubt that either group with absolute power would ever get anything more than half-assery across in its area if given the chance to make real "change". The government that does the least does the best in some cases and in that way I guess I'm more in the Thoreau camp. But don't mind me, I'm just that asshole who doesn't want to entirely dismantle a society just to end up getting ganged up on by some random mob that calls itself righteous when it's so delicious watching all these endless political asshats out each other in order to cannibalize their own bullshit.

By the way, the line early on in this bomb of a thread about how right-wingers love Lamb of God was absolutely spot on. It's hilarious how right-wingers go for the simpler and more aggressive stuff yet also it's because they don't tend to research more than have something kowtow to their emotions. They're knee-jerk reactionaries.

Whereas left-wingers want something they can enjoy until someone eventually points out a fault just to split off from that musician and "cancel" them because there has come up a very obvious culture of denigrating anyone who is "correct" in one moment based on the "uncorrectness" of any other moment, usually previous. They're knee-jerk reactionaries.

I like that All Shall Perish album. "This Day of Justice" kicks ass for a frothy beer night.
Spoiler: show


Still, like the shrill sounding "Jesus Tod"
Spoiler: show
or the more harmonic "Valen"
Spoiler: show
, it doesn't define my political outlook so much as make a musical mood that doesn't need the ridiculous religiosity of self-serving representation to validate a listen.

Use it to reinforce, sure you can, but you're a fucking moron if you're basing your music listening on which political ideal a band aligns with as well as missing a whole lot of sound that you could enjoy if you count out stuff you don't agree with. Once in a while it's fun to Rage Against the Machine
Spoiler: show
, or "Deer Dance" with System
Spoiler: show
, even some of you may want to "Break Stuff"
Spoiler: show
or scream that "People = Shit"
Spoiler: show
, maybe even (in this virus time) get "Down With the Sickness"
Spoiler: show
.

It'd be cathartic to "Destroy Everything"
Spoiler: show
but it would also be dumb as fuck to do it because I can tell from this thread that no one here has the skills to "rebuild and start again".

If there should be a shake-up it should be in this insane left-right dichotomy that, especially in the U.S., presumes to represent hundreds of millions of opinions, not this bullshit splitting between hardline lefties, moderate lefties, moderate righties, and hardline righties. It only makes that so-maligned horseshoe theory that every partisan considers corrupt clearer the more the shit that flies twixt those on similar sides.

Here's hoping you folks find some common ground, maybe Sedition in Pockets can pull some of the lint out and find a silver sliver of sanity. Maybe then all of this arguing can calm down a bit and hopefully find a way to become "Indivisible"
Spoiler: show
instead of deliriously digging diseased dialectical defiles defining disgusting dispensable differences. What happened to the idea of uplifting the masses when the masses are constantly diverging, let alone being the outlier who looks like an ass when you're supposed to be the champion of the groupthink? Sedition in Pockets should really take a look at the fighting he's been embroiled in and realize that his ideas aren't necessarily as much a way to champion the proletariat as they are his attempt at leading a cause that no one will follow. That must be pretty tough on someone who think's they're the next Lenin but it's also a good way to say, "hey bud, you think too much for yourself and obviously aren't collected enough for the collectivization of Communist civilization." If everyone thinks as one, does the movement need leadership or are you just touting authoritarianism so long as you're at the top?

As for a -wing artist, well I don't have a metal example on my mind but Matt Stone gave a point that'll rustle some jimmies, "I hate conservatives, but I really fucking hate liberals."
_________________
I'm Nobody! Who are you?
Are you - Nobody - too?
-Emily Dickinson

Top
 Profile  
darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5272
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:06 am 
 

Five_Nails wrote:
a point that'll rustle some jimmies, "I hate conservatives, but I really fucking hate liberals."

Imagine thinking anyone but the most irrelevant people in the world would be offended by this embarrassingly milquetoast and noncontroversial sentiment. :lol:
_________________
ambientsorrow wrote:
Pretty rubbish, I must say. Certainly not worth the hype behind it. Boring and predictable. A band for 14-22 year olds.

Top
 Profile  
Five_Nails
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:34 pm
Posts: 635
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:23 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Five_Nails wrote:
a point that'll rustle some jimmies, "I hate conservatives, but I really fucking hate liberals."

Imagine thinking anyone but the most irrelevant people in the world would be offended by this embarrassingly milquetoast and noncontroversial sentiment. :lol:


Just wait, the bickering partisans will log off of reddit and be back here soon. :argue:
_________________
I'm Nobody! Who are you?
Are you - Nobody - too?
-Emily Dickinson

Top
 Profile  
Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 1917
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:42 am 
 

Five_Nails wrote:
Maybe, just maybe there are exigencies inherent in any massively implemented system simply because the rosy vision of a perfect society doesn't nor will ever fucking exist. Acting as though there can be a society where people can only act out of collective interest is as dumb as pretending that people can only act out of self-interest


Muchas gracias :nods:
_________________
Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
Dustroy_Troly
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:29 pm
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:51 am 
 

I'm endlessly amused by the fact that this Sedition and Pockets gal apparently used to be a Nazi. It seems like the mental issues that made her adopt that ideology never got solved and are now just manifesting in blind adherence to another dumbass ideology. Some people are just drawn to the certainty of extremism, no matter what the actual content of their current belief system is.

Top
 Profile  
Methuen
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
Posts: 726
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:40 am 
 

Dembo wrote:
Methuen wrote:
read up on the Killing Fields, Katyn Forest, the GULAG system, Holdomor, the Cultural Revolution, Tibet, the Vietnamese Land Reform Programme.

I'm getting the impression that you're the one who should read up on those topics, since your views seem to be what most Westerner's views are, which we already get fed via schools, documentaries and textbooks, with highly problematic use of sources.


It's not 1972 anymore, and people don't have to put up with what amounts to red holocaust denial.

See the below - I appreciate that it's probably all capitalist lies to you regardless, even where the source is the Prosecutor General of the Soviet Union, or the Chinese Communist Party, but you never know, have to try :lol:

Spoiler: show
Cambodia "They turned the country into a huge detention center, which later became a graveyard for nearly two million people, including their own members and even some senior leaders." http://www.cambodiatribunal.org/history/cambodian-history/khmer-rouge-history/

Katyn "President Mikhail S. Gorbachev, seeking to defuse the single biggest issue poisoning relations between the Soviet Union and neighboring Poland, gave Polish President Wojciech Jaruzelski documents Friday that showed that Soviet secret police killed thousands of Polish army officers during World War II and buried them in mass graves in a Russian forest."
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-04-14-mn-972-story.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/26/russian-parliament-guilt-katyn-massacre
https://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/14/world/upheaval-in-the-east-gorbachev-hands-over-katyn-papers.html

GULAG 1 "Until late 1987, when the Perm prison camp was closed, it was notorious for the torture and imprisonment of Soviet dissidents, human rights activists, as well as politicians, writers and those who were considered enemies of the communist state." https://www.rt.com/news/gulag-memorial-museum-perm-955/

GULAG 2 - This links to the Russian GULAG history museum and project, in which they visit the actual camps / sites of camps / mines / mass graves / etc. https://gmig.ru/en/

Holdomor - ""In the former Soviet Union millions of men, women and children fell victims to the cruel actions and policies of the totalitarian regime. The Great Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine (Holodomor), which took from 7 million to 10 million innocent lives and became a national tragedy for the Ukrainian people" https://web.archive.org/web/20170313040724/http://repository.un.org/bitstream/handle/11176/246001/A_C.3_58_9-EN.pdf

Cultural Revolution "In 1981, the Communist Party of China declared that the Cultural Revolution was "responsible for the most severe setback and the heaviest losses suffered by the Party, the country, and the people since the founding of the People's Republic." http://www.gov.cn/test/2008-06/23/content_1024934_2.htm

Vietnamese Land Reforms "A Politburo document dated 4 May 1953 said that executions were "fixed in principle at the ratio of one per one thousand people of the total population." That ratio would indicate that communist Vietnam contemplated the execution of about 15,000 " https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/vs.2010.5.2.243?seq=1
_________________
Methuen at Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group