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Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 7:36 am 
 

But they do have the iron dome, and they've been pulling this shit since before there was a Hamas.
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Sepulchrave
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
Posts: 1994
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 8:26 am 
 

Let us not forget that Israel helped Hamas grow.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212 ... 11847.html
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Human666
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 11:59 am
Posts: 291
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:56 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
But they do have the iron dome, and they've been pulling this shit since before there was a Hamas.

So if they didn't have the iron dome and had more civilians dead on their side you would be happy?
I don't see what choice Israel have, Hamas shooting thousands of rockets on Israel's citizens, it's quite certain that Israel will defend its citizens and nuke Hamas.

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:11 am 
 

I'll be happy when Palestine is free, from the river to the sea.
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Human666
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:42 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I'll be happy when Palestine is free, from the river to the sea.

And where the Jews will live?

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:02 am 
 

Human666 wrote:
And where the Jews will live?

This is bait
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Human666
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 11:59 am
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:50 am 
 

Bait...?

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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:54 am 
 

Human666 wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
But they do have the iron dome, and they've been pulling this shit since before there was a Hamas.

So if they didn't have the iron dome and had more civilians dead on their side you would be happy?
I don't see what choice Israel have, Hamas shooting thousands of rockets on Israel's citizens, it's quite certain that Israel will defend its citizens and nuke Hamas.


They don't need to bomb as much to defend themselves.

I get it, Hamas terrorists are living/hiding among citizens. But if that's the case, the solution isn't "bomb people into oblivion". Civilian casualties are inacceptable, no matter how many baddies hide among them. Send troops to arrest terrorists. Or better yet, find a way to make lasting peace in the area. Crazy, I know, but if every time a rocket is fired they force thousands of people to live in the streets and kill hundreds of civilians, injure children, kill parents... the conflict will never end, it's that simple. The bigger problem is that Israel doesn't seem to even want to tone it down. They're quite ok with bombing people's homes as long as they can justify it because there may have been a baddie inside.

Morrigan wrote:
d where the Jews will live?

This is bait


Is it, though? Like it or not, Israel is there, "free Palestine" as stated by S&P isn't really a solution, or rather, it's a solution that causes another problem.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:11 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Is it, though? Like it or not, Israel is there, "free Palestine" as stated by S&P isn't really a solution, or rather, it's a solution that causes another problem.


This is such a big problem. Most are probably semi-aware of what happened post-WWII but the problems stretch thousands of years in this region. Even if a solution is found to the last 80 years of problems it won't solve the problems surrounding the holy land.

My general feeling is "one people, one land". And generally I think it is wise that a land populated by a people for thousands of years should, in some respect, belong to them. What we call Israel can't really be said to have that stable history. And to be sure all of the people who have been in control of that land (be it the jews, the palestinians, the romans, the babyolonians, the ottomans, the persians etc) all have shed blood to conquer of protect what they regarded as theirs.

I think it was wrong to give the jews the land after WWII but I also think it would be wrong to take it away from them now. It is a really tough situation and no matter what solution is proposed it is clear that it will create new problems. Maybe I'm to pessimistic but if history is any guide it is highly unlikely that we'll see real peace in the region.
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Human666
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 11:59 am
Posts: 291
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:24 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Human666 wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
But they do have the iron dome, and they've been pulling this shit since before there was a Hamas.

So if they didn't have the iron dome and had more civilians dead on their side you would be happy?
I don't see what choice Israel have, Hamas shooting thousands of rockets on Israel's citizens, it's quite certain that Israel will defend its citizens and nuke Hamas.


They don't need to bomb as much to defend themselves.

I get it, Hamas terrorists are living/hiding among citizens. But if that's the case, the solution isn't "bomb people into oblivion". Civilian casualties are inacceptable, no matter how many baddies hide among them. Send troops to arrest terrorists. Or better yet, find a way to make lasting peace in the area. Crazy, I know, but if every time a rocket is fired they force thousands of people to live in the streets and kill hundreds of civilians, injure children, kill parents... the conflict will never end, it's that simple. The bigger problem is that Israel doesn't seem to even want to tone it down. They're quite ok with bombing people's homes as long as they can justify it because there may have been a baddie inside.


How do you know how much they need to bomb or not? Do you have any intel regarding that issue?

Israel doesn't "bomb people into oblivion", in fact it's quite the opposite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking

What about Hamas? They fire thousands of rockets towards civilians, and they choose to do so from a crowded, densely populated region knowingly risking the lives of their own people.

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Human666
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Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 11:59 am
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:47 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Curious_dead wrote:
Is it, though? Like it or not, Israel is there, "free Palestine" as stated by S&P isn't really a solution, or rather, it's a solution that causes another problem.


This is such a big problem. Most are probably semi-aware of what happened post-WWII but the problems stretch thousands of years in this region. Even if a solution is found to the last 80 years of problems it won't solve the problems surrounding the holy land.

My general feeling is "one people, one land". And generally I think it is wise that a land populated by a people for thousands of years should, in some respect, belong to them. What we call Israel can't really be said to have that stable history. And to be sure all of the people who have been in control of that land (be it the jews, the palestinians, the romans, the babyolonians, the ottomans, the persians etc) all have shed blood to conquer of protect what they regarded as theirs.

I think it was wrong to give the jews the land after WWII but I also think it would be wrong to take it away from them now. It is a really tough situation and no matter what solution is proposed it is clear that it will create new problems. Maybe I'm to pessimistic but if history is any guide it is highly unlikely that we'll see real peace in the region.


Who "gave" the Jews the land?
Who "owned" it?


The Jews actually have a history of ruling that land, as opposed to the Palestinians.
The united kingdom of Israel existed between 1047 BCE and 930 BCE, later splitting into the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel, and later conquered by the Achaemenid empire.

The second time the Jews ruled that land was from 140 BCE until 63 BCE when it became part of the Roman empire.

Shortly before the modern state of Israel, the region was ruled for 28 years by the UK.
Before the UK, it was part of the Ottoman empire for 624 years.

So basically, that region has a long history of exchanging regimes, but it's undeniable that the Jews ruled that region as well.
It's something we can't say about the palestinians.

Modern Zionism emerged in the late 19th century (during the regime of the Ottoman empire) I've never heard about a parallel palestinian movement, before or during that time.

Anyway, I don't see there's any solution for that conflict, both the Jews and Arabs are there to stay.

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Curious_dead
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 1:20 pm 
 

Human666 wrote:
How do you know how much they need to bomb or not? Do you have any intel regarding that issue?

Israel doesn't "bomb people into oblivion", in fact it's quite the opposite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking

What about Hamas? They fire thousands of rockets towards civilians, and they choose to do so from a crowded, densely populated region knowingly risking the lives of their own people.


I'm not defending Hamas here. But I know Israel bomb too much because they leave thousands and thousands of innocents homeless, jobless, injured or dead. That's a problem, not a solution. From NYT:

Quote:
"Both sides appear to be violating those laws, experts said: Hamas has fired more than 3,000 rockets toward Israeli cities and towns, a clear war crime. And Israel, although it says it takes measures to avoid civilian casualties, has subjected Gaza to such an intense bombardment, killing families and flattening buildings, that it likely constitutes a disproportionate use of force — also a war crime.

In the deadliest attack yet, Israeli airstrikes on buildings in Gaza City on Sunday killed at least 42 people including 10 children, Palestinian officials said.

No legal adjudication is possible in the heat of battle. But some facts are clear. Israeli airstrikes and artillery barrages on Gaza, an impoverished and densely packed enclave of two million people, have killed at least 197 Palestinians, including 92 women and children, between last Monday and Sunday evening, producing stark images of destruction that have reverberated around the world."


That means about half the casualties on Palestinian side are women and children. The response is disproportional AND illegal.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 1:29 pm 
 

Human666 wrote:
Who "gave" the Jews the land?
Who "owned" it?


The Jews actually have a history of ruling that land, as opposed to the Palestinians.
The united kingdom of Israel existed between 1047 BCE and 930 BCE, later splitting into the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel, and later conquered by the Achaemenid empire.

The second time the Jews ruled that land was from 140 BCE until 63 BCE when it became part of the Roman empire.

Shortly before the modern state of Israel, the region was ruled for 28 years by the UK.
Before the UK, it was part of the Ottoman empire for 624 years.

So basically, that region has a long history of exchanging regimes, but it's undeniable that the Jews ruled that region as well.
It's something we can't say about the palestinians.

Modern Zionism emerged in the late 19th century (during the regime of the Ottoman empire) I've never heard about a parallel palestinian movement, before or during that time.

Anyway, I don't see there's any solution for that conflict, both the Jews and Arabs are there to stay.


Yes!

Exactly this!

It is so intricate and infected and it has thousands of years of conflict history. I only know the rough outlines of the history of the holy land (every year doing a time line with my students but only in regards to important dates as it relates to judaism). I often show them this video just for them to get an understanding of the history of the land (no worries I really don't teach history with animated musical videos :) ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 1:45 pm 
 

There is a simple solution though: Israel can simply hand Palestinians Israeli citizenship and give them the same rights and privileges as everyone else. Problem solved.

That's why even the moderate position of "both sides do bad things" is revolting. The Israelis aren't just holding all the cards, they own the table, chairs and the room and could end the conflict in a second. The only sides are: 1) a far-right regime with near infinite resources committed to exterminating the local population for dumbfuck religious and bloodline reasons and 2) people who disagree with that goal.

Calling Hamas terrorists is not far from calling the French Resistance terrorists. At absolute worst, they're useful idiots used to justify mass slaughter of women and children. But I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think that they may be the final line of defense from total ethnic cleansing and/or forced relocation of their people.

The rockets will stop when Israel starts treating the locals like human beings. Until that happens, nothing that Hamas does will bother me in the slightest.
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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 3:27 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
There is a simple solution though: Israel can simply hand Palestinians Israeli citizenship and give them the same rights and privileges as everyone else. Problem solved.

That's why even the moderate position of "both sides do bad things" is revolting. The Israelis aren't just holding all the cards, they own the table, chairs and the room and could end the conflict in a second. The only sides are: 1) a far-right regime with near infinite resources committed to exterminating the local population for dumbfuck religious and bloodline reasons and 2) people who disagree with that goal.

Calling Hamas terrorists is not far from calling the French Resistance terrorists. At absolute worst, they're useful idiots used to justify mass slaughter of women and children. But I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think that they may be the final line of defense from total ethnic cleansing and/or forced relocation of their people.

The rockets will stop when Israel starts treating the locals like human beings. Until that happens, nothing that Hamas does will bother me in the slightest.


This is so naive. Do you really think giving Palestinians Israeli passports will solve the conflict? A conflict where the parties both have claims to the land that goes back a at least two thousand years? The parties today is one thing but really its so much more than a current regime and resistance fighters. This is a claim of what both consider their land, and not any land but the holy land.

It's not really about right wing vs the resistance either (but on the surface perhaps). Remember that one part of the conflict are arab nationalists (if you see this as a right wing thing and want to side with the other side). As sionism grew in the late 1800's (the movement who sought to claim a land for jews to escape antisemitism) they started a project to make a national home for jews in today's Israel. The Palestinian nationalists opposed this but jews did start to move into the territory as a way of heighten their presence to have a stronger claim to the land (much like Russia did with Crimea). So in a way it was a collision of two nationalist parties at the time. Then the arab-palestinian nationalist movement got even stronger in the 1930's when arabs from other parts of the world moved in to the territory to heighten their presence (and thus claim to the land). So in modern times (the 1900's) it is really two nationalist sides against each other.

This is deeply rooted in culture and religion. Giving one side passports won't solve anything. The one state solution will also probably create more problems (according to experts). Remember that this dream of a jewish state come from the year 70 A.D. and has lived with the jewish peope for close to 2000 years! And beside that the land has been infected with wars, fights, disagreements and different rulers. It is about the most holy city in the world, being so important to jews, muslims and christians. And the holy mount, the most holy of places in judaism where the muslims built a synagogue where the temple once stood. Passports is not the answer to the conflict, it is much more deep rooted.
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Human666
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Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 11:59 am
Posts: 291
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 4:44 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Human666 wrote:
How do you know how much they need to bomb or not? Do you have any intel regarding that issue?

Israel doesn't "bomb people into oblivion", in fact it's quite the opposite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking

What about Hamas? They fire thousands of rockets towards civilians, and they choose to do so from a crowded, densely populated region knowingly risking the lives of their own people.


I'm not defending Hamas here. But I know Israel bomb too much because they leave thousands and thousands of innocents homeless, jobless, injured or dead.


What choice Israel have?
Their enemy (Hamas) is deliberately attacking from crowded neighborhoods full with civilians, Israel can't give up its civilians because of that, they must protect their people from the thousands of flying rockets that are being fired from Hamas.
If someone is responsible for the death and injures of innocent Arabs, that's Hamas that is deliberately attacking from crowded neighborhoods full with civilians, knowing they risking the lives of their own people.

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Human666
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Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 11:59 am
Posts: 291
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 4:56 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
There is a simple solution though: Israel can simply hand Palestinians Israeli citizenship and give them the same rights and privileges as everyone else. Problem solved.

That's why even the moderate position of "both sides do bad things" is revolting. The Israelis aren't just holding all the cards, they own the table, chairs and the room and could end the conflict in a second. The only sides are: 1) a far-right regime with near infinite resources committed to exterminating the local population for dumbfuck religious and bloodline reasons and 2) people who disagree with that goal.

Calling Hamas terrorists is not far from calling the French Resistance terrorists. At absolute worst, they're useful idiots used to justify mass slaughter of women and children. But I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think that they may be the final line of defense from total ethnic cleansing and/or forced relocation of their people.

The rockets will stop when Israel starts treating the locals like human beings. Until that happens, nothing that Hamas does will bother me in the slightest.


LOL.

In Israel there are Arab members in the parliament, Arab students in all the universities and colleges, all fields of employment etc.
The Arab citizens of Israel have full rights like the Jews and Christians have, and they have a much higher quality of life in Israel than any other country in the middle east.
You think that the Gaza Strip's people are Israel' locals, but they are not.
If someone should hand the Palestinians a citizenship, it should be Egypt, not Israel.

Saying that "nothing that Hamas does will bother me in the slightest" is exactly like saying that you don't care about innocent Jews that are being attacked/killed, which is not a very sophisticated way to disguise anti Semitism.

The truth is, that Israel transfers millions of dollars to the Gaza strip from Qatar regularly , but Hamas takes all the money and invest it in weaponry targeted at Israel's civilians instead of using it for the benefit of its own citizens.
Until that won't change, I don't think the conflict will ever end.

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Oxenkiller
Veteran

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 7:49 pm 
 

That's a big part of the problem with the Palestinian/occupied territories right there: Whenever Israel has tried to grant them more autonomy, and invest in building their economy, what do they do? Do they actually invest in infrastructure, jobs, factories, and so on? No. They take their newly granted autonomy, and the money they were given, and... invest in weapons, which they promptly use to attack Israel. We've seen this pattern before. I want to believe that creating an independent Arab Palestinian state would guarantee peace in the region, but sadly I don't believe that.

So what, then, is the solution? Honestly I don't know. I have no idea. The U.S. policy has always been to unconditionally support Israel, and from a geo-political standpoint I understand that argument, even though it is obviously flawed. Israel stands as a bulwark against militant Islamic extremism, which could otherwise expand and threaten secular areas beyond the Middle East. Or so the argument goes; like I said there are problems with this idea.

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Ezadara
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 609
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:44 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Calling Hamas terrorists is not far from calling the French Resistance terrorists. At absolute worst, they're useful idiots used to justify mass slaughter of women and children. But I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think that they may be the final line of defense from total ethnic cleansing and/or forced relocation of their people.

The rockets will stop when Israel starts treating the locals like human beings. Until that happens, nothing that Hamas does will bother me in the slightest.

This is the kind of insanity that damages the credibility of actual pro-Palestinian advocates in the US.

Hamas is a terrorist group. Full stop. They murder not just Israeli civilians, but Palestinian civilians as well. They are not representative of the Palestinian cause.

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~Guest 285196
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:33 pm 
 

Hamas are a terrorist group. They are not the good guys. And Israel has the right to exist and defend itself from attacks. It's the long-term politics of Israel that makes the issue clear to me. Israel is ethnically cleansing Palestinian lands and colonizing them. It's an actual apartheid state that is expanding its territory through military conquest (which is illegal according to international law) in the name of an ethnic-religious supremacy. No other country on Earth would be allowed to do this, but Israel has the US on their sides.

Israel has the power to de-escalate and even end the conflict. They're in a hostile neighborhood, but they don't make themselves very likable with their long-term plans. If they reverted to the 1967 borders, stopped the military occupation of Palestine, and recognized Palestine as a sovereign state, I think peace could be possible. Only religious and political extremists would oppose such a normalized relationship between the countries.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 12:04 am 
 

Y'all really need to read some Norm Finklestein. Hamas is not a fucking terrorist group.
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Human666
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Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 11:59 am
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 6:10 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Y'all really need to read some Norm Finklestein. Hamas is not a fucking terrorist group.

Hamas is not a terrorist group?
Then how else would you describe a fundamentalist, , racist, homophobic militant group who aim to kill innocent civilians by shooting thousands of rockets on their homes and schools?
Get real.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:04 am 
 

Hamas may be a terrorist group but that doesn't give Israel any rights to massacre civilians. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Israel is still calling air strikes on one of the most heavily populated areas in the world. That isn't "defending yourself", that's called genocide.

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Human666
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:16 am 
 

Hamas is hiding among civilians, they are responsible for risking the lives of the Gaza strip's people, not the IDF who has no choice but to attack those terrorists who launch thousands of rockets on Israel.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:47 am 
 

Human666 wrote:
Hamas is hiding among civilians, they are responsible for risking the lives of the Gaza strip's people, not the IDF who has no choice but to attack those terrorists who launch thousands of rockets on Israel.

"Terrorists are hiding among civilians, let's kill all civilians then". Nope, sorry, still murder.

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Human666
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:51 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Human666 wrote:
Hamas is hiding among civilians, they are responsible for risking the lives of the Gaza strip's people, not the IDF who has no choice but to attack those terrorists who launch thousands of rockets on Israel.

"Terrorists are hiding among civilians, let's kill all civilians then". Nope, sorry, still murder.


They don't "kill all civilians"...read about "roof knocking", see how many soldiers Hamas lost, and come back.

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Sepulchrave
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:06 am 
 

Even if that is true that Hamas are using human shields, the IDF have been consistently indiscriminate in their targets throughout the conflict. To say otherwise is utterly deluded. Even the sanitized Wikipedia page about the Battle of Shuja'iyya shows how bloodthirsty the monsters from the IDF are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... prov=sfla1
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Sepulchrave
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:13 am 
 

-
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wizard_of_bore wrote:
I drank a lot of cheap beer and ate three Nacho BellGrandes. A short time later I took a massive messy shit and I swear it sounded just like the drums on Dirty Window from Metallica's St Anger album.


Last edited by Sepulchrave on Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:43 am 
 

Human666 wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Human666 wrote:
Hamas is hiding among civilians, they are responsible for risking the lives of the Gaza strip's people, not the IDF who has no choice but to attack those terrorists who launch thousands of rockets on Israel.

"Terrorists are hiding among civilians, let's kill all civilians then". Nope, sorry, still murder.


They don't "kill all civilians"...read about "roof knocking", see how many soldiers Hamas lost, and come back.

If you want me to read something specific, post it. You're just delusional and condoning genocide and war crimes if you think fighting "terrorism" justifies murdering at least 116 civilians.

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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:45 am 
 

Human666 wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Human666 wrote:
Hamas is hiding among civilians, they are responsible for risking the lives of the Gaza strip's people, not the IDF who has no choice but to attack those terrorists who launch thousands of rockets on Israel.

"Terrorists are hiding among civilians, let's kill all civilians then". Nope, sorry, still murder.


They don't "kill all civilians"...read about "roof knocking", see how many soldiers Hamas lost, and come back.


Funny how you conveniently ignore my comment pointing out what IDF does is war crimes and a good portion of the victims are actually women and kids. And by funny, I mean that's fucking abhorrent.

darkeningday wrote:
There is a simple solution though: Israel can simply hand Palestinians Israeli citizenship and give them the same rights and privileges as everyone else. Problem solved.

That's why even the moderate position of "both sides do bad things" is revolting. The Israelis aren't just holding all the cards, they own the table, chairs and the room and could end the conflict in a second. The only sides are: 1) a far-right regime with near infinite resources committed to exterminating the local population for dumbfuck religious and bloodline reasons and 2) people who disagree with that goal.

Calling Hamas terrorists is not far from calling the French Resistance terrorists. At absolute worst, they're useful idiots used to justify mass slaughter of women and children. But I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think that they may be the final line of defense from total ethnic cleansing and/or forced relocation of their people.

The rockets will stop when Israel starts treating the locals like human beings. Until that happens, nothing that Hamas does will bother me in the slightest.


Speaking of abhorrent, how can one fucking live while defending fucking terrorists, like, fuck you man. Hamas, IDF, there are no good guys here, just two groups killing each other, and innocents are caught in the crossfire.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:54 am 
 

Hamas. are not. a terrorist organization. They have a political wing, a humanitarian wing and a military wing. In recent years as any hope to broker a not-completely-dogshit deal with Israel has crumbled to ash because of the collapse of the center left and the rise of the Likuds, the military sector have started to become dominant. The UN flatly rejected America's assertion that Hamas is a terrorist group, and even the right-wing governments of Australia and the UK describe only their military wing as terrorist. I'm not debating that their military has done unconscionable acts. I'm saying that they're not comparable to the Taliban or ISIS in scope, power, efficiency, funding or, yes, morality.

For every child Israel bombs in broad daylight, a hundred more Palestinians are less uneasy about throwing their support behind the military wing of Hamas.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:14 am 
 

When people are occupied, all resistance is justified.
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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:42 am 
 

Keep justifying war crimes, people, doesn't make you sound deranged at all.

Fuck.

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:44 am 
 

The "war crimes" of the people resisting erasure and dispossession, or the actual war crimes of the perpetrators of oppression?
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:46 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
.For every child Israel bombs in broad daylight, a hundred more Palestinians are less uneasy about throwing their support behind the military wing of Hamas.


And the thing is, Netanyahu doesn't want to defeat Hamas. He and his fellow far-right allies need Hamas to continue sending rockets to justify their treatment of the Palestinian people and the continued colonization to the outside world, and in turn that treatment drives the Palestinians further into the arms of Hamas.

Israel (Likud) has all the power in this conflict. If they wanted to they could stop the vast majority of future deaths tomorrow, but they won't because that would mean they'd lose support amongst their base. Hamas has done terrible things, but they're a secondary problem. A problem that would largely solve itself if Israel stopped treating Palestinians as less than human.
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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:51 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
The "war crimes" of the people resisting erasure and dispossession, or the actual war crimes of the perpetrators?


Both sides commit war crimes, don't fucking white wash anything. I know I may sound like I'm defending Israel and the IDF here, but I'm really not, I'm just disgusted by the attitude of people who justify Hamas war tactics (or, like Human666, who doesn't consider the IDF response disproportionate).

And fuck, I understand what they must be thinking. I hate the position the Palestinians are into. But Jesus fuck, they shoot rockets and then hide among civilians knowing full well how the IDF will respond. The only good guys here are those caught in the cross fire. Neither side offers a solution, just more bloodshed.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 10:34 am 
 

Sam Seder described the rockets as "basically just oversized fireworks." They are not high-powered ordinance designed to maximize civilian casualties. Also, from a recent interview I heard with an Al Jazeera journalist, as conditions become worse and worse, Palestinian approval of the military wing of Hamas grows and more people than ever see their attacks as wholly justified. This video might give you an idea why:
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Sepulchrave
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 10:35 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
.For every child Israel bombs in broad daylight, a hundred more Palestinians are less uneasy about throwing their support behind the military wing of Hamas.


And the thing is, Netanyahu doesn't want to defeat Hamas. He and his fellow far-right allies need Hamas to continue sending rockets to justify their treatment of the Palestinian people and the continued colonization to the outside world, and in turn that treatment drives the Palestinians further into the arms of Hamas.

Israel (Likud) has all the power in this conflict. If they wanted to they could stop the vast majority of future deaths tomorrow, but they won't because that would mean they'd lose support amongst their base. Hamas has done terrible things, but they're a secondary problem. A problem that would largely solve itself if Israel stopped treating Palestinians as less than human.


Nailed it.
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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 11:08 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Sam Seder described the rockets as "basically just oversized fireworks." They are not high-powered ordinance designed to maximize civilian casualties. Also, from a recent interview I heard with an Al Jazeera journalist, as conditions become worse and worse, Palestinian approval of the military wing of Hamas grows and more people than ever see their attacks as wholly justified. This video might give you an idea why:


If the rockets are "fireworks", as you claim... I mean what's the fucking point, then, even?

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Ezadara
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 12:01 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Sam Seder described the rockets as "basically just oversized fireworks." They are not high-powered ordinance designed to maximize civilian casualties.

Are you seriously quoting Sam Seder as an authority on this? Everyone from Human Rights Watch to defense experts acknowledges these are weapons designed purely to hurt civilians and cause terror.

Your determination to rightly condemn Israel has gone to a point of ignoring reality and outright lying to defend a terrorist organization. And yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization, no matter how hard you try to justify their crimes, play at semantics, and whitewash history. Israel's actions are unconscionable and offensive to every sincere conception of human rights, you don't have to tack on 'and also Hamas is great!' to make that point.

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