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Sedition and Pockets
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 1071
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:59 pm 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
I’m sure the administration has, and willing to offer some carrots for West Virginia (Crom knows they need it). But it’s more Manchin doing a bit of “cover your ass”. If Manchin goes, the alternative is coal barons like Don Blankenship who don’t give a fuck. It’s fucked up that West Virginia put all their economic eggs in that one basket


By all accounts, they haven't negotiated with Manchin at all.
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insanewayne253
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:04 am
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:02 am 
 

You don’t even know that. Manchin’s gonna Manchin. My statement still stands. Get a bigger majority so you don’t have him and Sinema acting as gatekeepers to any actual legislation. No shit min wage is popular, but you’re not going to get to $15 without their support, they’d be satisfied with the Romney min wage increase which doesn’t go far enough.

Right now with a 50/50 split if we just toned down the woke idicocracy we could have a governing majority of 60%. Conversely, if we stayed woke and too focused on silly issues that do nothing to help our cause, the Republicans could run John Kasich types and ditch Trumpism and rule for quite a long time with 60%. Of course they are too dumb to do that.

Funny thing is, we’re focusing on legislating while the right is focused on a plastic potato and Dr Seuss...

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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:00 am 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
Funny thing is, we’re focusing on legislating while the right is focused on a plastic potato and Dr Seuss...

Speaking of which, I personally never really cared for the name change for the Mr. Potato Head brand. If they wanted to neutralized their name so as to broaden their audience, it's their right. I did got some laughs from the conservatives who were flipping their crap on the company for doing the unspeakable crime of trying to change their name! :lol:
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Gravetemplar
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:04 am 
 

Slater922 wrote:
insanewayne253 wrote:
Funny thing is, we’re focusing on legislating while the right is focused on a plastic potato and Dr Seuss...

Speaking of which, I personally never really cared for the name change for the Mr. Potato Head brand. If they wanted to neutralized their name so as to broaden their audience, it's their right. I did got some laughs from the conservatives who were flipping their crap on the company for doing the unspeakable crime of trying to change their name! :lol:

Not only they are focusing on something dumb, it's a lie. They changed the brand, not the actual products. Since they sell both Mr. and Mrs. Potato, they decided to change the brand to just Potato Head, but they still sell both Mr. and Mrs. Potato and they are clearly gendered.

Here you can clearly see the Mr. and Mrs.

Spoiler: show
Image

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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 588
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:19 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Slater922 wrote:
insanewayne253 wrote:
Funny thing is, we’re focusing on legislating while the right is focused on a plastic potato and Dr Seuss...

Speaking of which, I personally never really cared for the name change for the Mr. Potato Head brand. If they wanted to neutralized their name so as to broaden their audience, it's their right. I did got some laughs from the conservatives who were flipping their crap on the company for doing the unspeakable crime of trying to change their name! :lol:

Not only they are focusing on something dumb, it's a lie. They changed the brand, not the actual products. Since they sell both Mr. and Mrs. Potato, they decided to change the brand to just Potato Head, but they still sell both Mr. and Mrs. Potato and they are clearly gendered.

Here you can clearly see the Mr. and Mrs.

Spoiler: show
Image

That just makes the conservative's tantrum even more unnecessary. The character names are still the same. The brand name just changed.
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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:59 am 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
You don’t even know that. Manchin’s gonna Manchin. My statement still stands. Get a bigger majority so you don’t have him and Sinema acting as gatekeepers to any actual legislation. No shit min wage is popular, but you’re not going to get to $15 without their support, they’d be satisfied with the Romney min wage increase which doesn’t go far enough.

Right now with a 50/50 split if we just toned down the woke idicocracy we could have a governing majority of 60%. Conversely, if we stayed woke and too focused on silly issues that do nothing to help our cause, the Republicans could run John Kasich types and ditch Trumpism and rule for quite a long time with 60%. Of course they are too dumb to do that.

Funny thing is, we’re focusing on legislating while the right is focused on a plastic potato and Dr Seuss...


I can't quite tell whether you are a complete fucking idiot or just think that the rest of us are. The Democrats cannot expand their legislative majority for at least two years, when the next round of Congressional elections occurs. Americans need COVID relief now, not in two years. Americans need an increased minimum wage now, not in two years. LGBTQ Americans like me need the protection from discrimination afforded by the Equality Act now, not in two years. The whole damn world needs the United States to take decisive action on climate change now, not in two years. GTFO with that dumbass excuse making.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:06 am 
 

Seems a bit silly to encourage everyone to look past electoralism and constantly remind us that "Democrats are not the answer and it may actually be preferable if Republicans control the presidency for the next four years" and then get indignant about... electoralism and Democrats. Call me crazy but I don't think the Equality Act and decisive action on climate change would even be a glimmer of possibility over the next four years if Dems hadn't won their razor thin majorities.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:04 pm 
 

In case you need anymore proof that Joe Manchin is the Joe Lieberman of this day and age...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/05/politics ... index.html

Quote:
Jobless Americans would get a smaller weekly boost to unemployment benefits but receive those payments for an additional month under a last-minute revision of the Senate's $1.9 trillion coronavirus relief package on Friday.

The bill, which now differs from the House version passed last week, calls for providing a $300 a week federal enhancement and for extending two key pandemic jobless benefits programs through September.
The new arrangement would also make the first $10,200 worth of benefits tax-free.

This is a significant change from the House bill, which would provide an extra $400 a week through August 29 and continue the two pandemic programs for the same period. The House bill does not contain the tax provision.

But West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin -- the Democrats' crucial 50th vote -- does not yet support the plan, but has been supportive of a Republican proposal to extend $300-a-week federal benefits through July.

Progress on the overall bill paused Friday afternoon as senators negotiated the issue.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:55 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Seems a bit silly to encourage everyone to look past electoralism and constantly remind us that "Democrats are not the answer and it may actually be preferable if Republicans control the presidency for the next four years"


Weird how I never said that, but ok.

Quote:
and then get indignant about... electoralism and Democrats. Call me crazy but I don't think the Equality Act and decisive action on climate change would even be a glimmer of possibility over the next four years if Dems hadn't won their razor thin majorities.


This isn't about my faith (or lack thereof) in the electoral process to provide solutions to the irreducible contradictions of the very system our electoral politics were designed and structured to serve (although I won't shy away from saying it illustrates pretty sharply why I don't think electoral poltics is a useful vehicle for achieving vital change); this is about a concrete, material fact. The American people—by the tens of millions—have needs that are going unmet right now. Meeting those needs is a necessity, not a convenience to be kicked down the road.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:42 pm 
 

No surprise, Donald Trump holds a grudge. He has sent cease-and-desist letters to the Republican National, Senate and Congressional Committees to prevent them using his name and likeness to fundraise for candidates who voted for impeachment.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/amphtml/trump ... 35303.html
Good news is, this whole new level of squabbling with his own party makes it even more unlikely that we’ll see him again in future elections!
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Slater922
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:58 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
Good news is, this whole new level of squabbling with his own party makes it even more unlikely that we’ll see him again in future elections!

I don't think Trump could win the 2024 election even if he tried. The only people who would still be voting for him in 2024 are his die-hard/delusional supporters who've gone off the deep end. And that's if he isn't blackballed from mainstream ballots.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:38 pm 
 

They're talking about Ron DeSantis, my governor here in FL, running in 2024. That guy makes me seethe with rage all the time so I am sure this fucking nightmare will come true.
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Slater922
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:12 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
They're talking about Ron DeSantis, my governor here in FL, running in 2024. That guy makes me seethe with rage all the time so I am sure this fucking nightmare will come true.

Andrew Gillum would've been a better governor tbh. Not sure why Floridians chose DeSantis, considering their wild elections in the past 20 years.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:21 pm 
 

Slater922 wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
They're talking about Ron DeSantis, my governor here in FL, running in 2024. That guy makes me seethe with rage all the time so I am sure this fucking nightmare will come true.

Andrew Gillum would've been a better governor tbh. Not sure why Floridians chose DeSantis, considering their wild elections in the past 20 years.


Gillum had great ideas but I guess they just weren't ready for anyone but a conservative white guy. This is still a really conservative place even though there is quite a lot of new blue-leaning people here now.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:43 pm 
 

It would actually be wonderful if DeSantis won the Republican nomination, because there's no way in hell he'll win a general election... unless his opponent is Kamala Harris...
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:59 pm 
 

Here's hoping Biden and Harris can do at least enough to ward off whatever Republican ghoul is gonna happen next anyway.
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insanewayne253
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:52 am 
 

If they play their cards right, Covid will be nearly gone by summer which means a massive economic boom later in the year. Dems can point to that success as well as a much needed infrastructure bill...ya know...that infrastructure week that was said to happen in the previous administration...yeah that may finally happen. Now hopefully some student debt forgiveness, legalizing marijuana, etc

Looks like Manchin is growing a heart or a spine or whatever coal infested shit that’s up his ass keeping him from doing anything; he’s saying he wants to reform the filibuster. I’m down with that. That mean new voting rights act so the GQP can’t fuck with state elections along with other potential priorities (DC and PR statehood, Equal Rights Amendment etc.)

The likeliest in the 2024 field are DeSantis, Noem, Hailey, Cruz, Rubio, maybe Cotton, maybe Hawley even though both Cruz and Hawley have kinda fucked themselves outside of their own base. There’s also Larry Hogan and maybe John Kasich even though the base hates them. Dark Horses are Trump Jr and possibly Trump himself if he’s not indicted by Cyrus Vance or anyone else looking to go after him.

I’m sure Harris could handle herself if Biden decides to call it after one term. She just can’t afford to be complacent and assume it’s all in the bag.

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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:03 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
They're talking about Ron DeSantis, my governor here in FL, running in 2024. That guy makes me seethe with rage all the time so I am sure this fucking nightmare will come true.


Jesus Christ.

I definitely wouldn’t call myself the most “plugged in” guy when it comes to politics and politicians, but even I know enough about this guy to be thoroughly disgusted.
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Ezadara
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:28 pm 
 

insanewayne253 wrote:
Looks like Manchin is growing a heart or a spine or whatever coal infested shit that’s up his ass keeping him from doing anything; he’s saying he wants to reform the filibuster.

Manchin's problem is more gross naivete than heartlessness. He genuinely is stuck in an era when it was possible to reach across the aisle and have the other party work with you in good faith. Seeing the COVID bill get no Republican votes despite his work to pass Republican-sponsored amendments seems to have finally gotten it through his head (after ten years) that the Senate doesn't work that way anymore and that the GOP has a vested political interest in stonewalling the Democrats til kingdom come.

Quote:
The likeliest in the 2024 field are DeSantis, Noem, Hailey, Cruz, Rubio, maybe Cotton, maybe Hawley even though both Cruz and Hawley have kinda fucked themselves outside of their own base. There’s also Larry Hogan and maybe John Kasich even though the base hates them. Dark Horses are Trump Jr and possibly Trump himself if he’s not indicted by Cyrus Vance or anyone else looking to go after him.

I don't think Hogan and Kasich have a snowball's chance in hell-- Hogan's too moderate, as a pro-choice governor who signed gun control restrictions into law and backed the Paris Climate Accord, and Kasich may be more conservative but he's indelibly tagged as an opponent of Trump, which makes him anathema to 95% of Republican voters. Hailey's political fortunes have also dimmed lately, although we're a couple of years out from the real start of the 2024 cycle and a lot can change.

I'm betting on someone like DeSantis-- if Trump himself doesn't run. Hell, between DeSantis, Rubio, and Scott, I'm not sure there's any Republican office-holder in Florida who won't be trying to run for president.

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:00 pm 
 

Let's not kid ourselves. If he's not dead, incarcerated, or institutionalized, Donald Trump will almost certainly be the Republican nominee for President in 2024.
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Oblarg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:00 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Let's not kid ourselves. If he's not dead, incarcerated, or institutionalized, Donald Trump will almost certainly be the Republican nominee for President in 2024.


The cult of personality's pretty strong, but I could imagine him supplanted by someone more savvy. Ultimately, what does it matter?
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:07 pm 
 

I still think there'll be something that happens before 2024 that elevates someone else or lessens Trump's chances. He still has a shot but I just don't think it's for sure.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:22 pm 
 

Oblarg wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Let's not kid ourselves. If he's not dead, incarcerated, or institutionalized, Donald Trump will almost certainly be the Republican nominee for President in 2024.


The cult of personality's pretty strong, but I could imagine him supplanted by someone more savvy. Ultimately, what does it matter?


Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the 2024 GOP nominee will either be Trump himself (still the most likely outcome, imo), or an avatar for Trump and the Trumpian movement. There has been a turn within major segments of the American ruling class towards fascism, and the logic of the two party system will drive ruling class factions in "resistance" to that turn into the arms of the Democratic Party. I strongly doubt the ability of "establishment" Republicans to reconstitute themselves as the dominant faction within the GOP; they will either accommodate themselves permanently to Trump or his successor, or they will become Democrats.
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Oblarg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:24 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the 2024 GOP nominee will either be Trump himself (still the most likely outcome, imo), or an avatar for Trump and the Trumpian movement. There has been a turn within major segments of the American ruling class towards fascism, and the logic of the two party system will drive ruling class factions in "resistance" to that turn into the arms of the Democratic Party. I strongly doubt the ability of "establishment" Republicans to reconstitute themselves as the dominant faction within the GOP; they will either accommodate themselves permanently to Trump or his successor, or they will become Democrats.


Can't really disagree with any of this.
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Methuen
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:31 am 
 

Put this in the US politics thread as the organisation producing the report is US based, despite the international authorship, and the obvious (despite the weasel-y last sentence) plan here is to inform & influence the right kind of bodies in the US government; the executive summary is pretty damning, and the full report is only 55 pages long (which considering the list of eminent human rights lawyers on the author page, is quite short !)

Question to the US guys I suppose (as the British media has lost interest now that there's royal drama to follow) - does Biden have a position on China yet ? Is this kind of thing likely to influence his governments' direction ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/09/chinas-treatment-of-uighurs-breaches-un-genocide-convention-finds-landmark-report

https://newlinesinstitute.org/uyghurs/the-uyghur-genocide-an-examination-of-chinas-breaches-of-the-1948-genocide-convention/

Quote:
This report is the first independent expert application of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the ongoing treatment of the Uyghurs in China. It was undertaken by the Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy, in cooperation with the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights, in response to emerging accounts of serious and systematic atrocities in Xinjiang province, particularly directed against the Uyghurs, an ethnic minority, to ascertain whether the People’s Republic of China is in breach of the Genocide Convention under international law.

For this purpose, dozens of experts in international law, genocide studies, Chinese ethnic policies, and the region were invited to examine pro-bono all available evidence that could be collected and verified from public Chinese State communications, leaked Chinese State communications, eye-witness testimony, and open-source research methods such as public satellite-image analysis, analysis of information circulating on the Chinese internet, and any other available source.

The resulting report is a presentation of the facts that could be established together with careful analysis of whether China bears State responsibility for breaches of the Genocide Convention. We believe the conclusions are clear and convincing. We do not make any recommendations for action, but we do stand prepared to share our information and analysis with relevant institutions or actors interested in these findings.
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ObservationSlave
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:39 am 
 

From what I've seen, Biden has been super careful about criticizing China. China has the whole world by the balls and flexing their power literally every day. They're basically like "Yeah, we'll commit a genocide and you won't do shit about it." And they're right. Hollywood can't even make a movie without China's approval. An NBA Exec can't even criticize China's handling of Hong Kong without causing uproar. They are the new world power and it appears as if we will have to get used to that.

I imagine Biden will spend his entire Presidency tiptoeing around the issue of China and things will only get worse. Can you imagine the outcry if there was a European country rounding up Muslims into camps? It's absolutely insane that China is able to get away with it, and that speaks to their immense power and control.

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:43 am 
 

Newlines isn't an "independent organization," it is a Muslim Brotherhood front group.
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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:33 am 
 

If you believe Trumpers (hint: never believe a Trumper, even if they tell you up is up and down is down), Biden is totally in league with China. Realistically, he won't start useless trade wars with them because he (unlike his predecessor) understands how trade wars and currency manipulation work, but he will probably tiptoe the issue.

The sad thing is, I doubt the US alone could bring change to China; if the rest of the world doesn't follow, all it would do is hurt US economy, which I think is a sign that the economy should move away from that terrible, horrible regime. And it would play in the hands of Republicans: "See, he wanted to help Muslims in China but hurt you!" Even if the people of China woke up, I don't trust the CCP not to do another massacre. There's no easy solution out of this as long as China remains an economic heavyweight led by some of the most horrible human beings on the planet.

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:19 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Newlines isn't an "independent organization," it is a Muslim Brotherhood front group.

Interesting how an organization that's a front would be so critical of said front. Not to say that Newlines is free of bias or isn't associated with some group here or there, but to use that as a "but but but... they aren't totally independent" as though that's the smoking gun for why a study on an unrelated matter is less credible or valuable is, honestly, a little sad - like grasping for straws.

I really will never understand why tankies defend China so much. Yeah, the right is truly awful when it comes to its racist, warmongering obsession with China, especially with the jealous undertones for what amounts to a dream for conservatives; a one-party autocratic capitalist state on steroids. You can bet there's Republicans salivating at the thought of that. Yet, that also begs the question why tankies are so inclined to fight any suggestion of impropriety on behalf of China; a state that has a track-record of imperialist activities, hellbent on expanding and growing a capitalist, mercantile economy. Is it because they offer an 'alternative' to the West... because here's the thing, China is knee-deep in the West in every way that matters, they just have the luxury of claiming that they're not.

I have nothing against China for playing the game just as well as any other player in the West, which is why the fearmongering about "China this" and "China that" feels like deflection and a desire to seek out a scapegoat for one's own faults, but at the same time, they're not a victim, either. States are complicated that way. An imperialist state committing acts of barbarity shouldn't surprise anyone, but it also shouldn't be defended, either.
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:49 pm 
 

Every imperialism has its own verstehers.

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Methuen
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:40 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
if the rest of the world doesn't follow, all it would do is hurt US economy, which I think is a sign that the economy should move away from that terrible, horrible regime. And it would play in the hands of Republicans: "See, he wanted to help Muslims in China but hurt you!"


I had written a longer post, but the cat deleted it in her hunt for attention, so in summary - I hope that this isn't the sad truth of the matter, I hadn't looked at it like that before now. Hopefully dithering now (by those that absolutely know better, but are largely blinded by their wallets) doesn't result in future students learning about another genocide to go on the list with Armenia, the Holocaust, Holodomor, the Killing Fields, Rwanda, etc.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:44 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Newlines isn't an "independent organization," it is a Muslim Brotherhood front group.

Interesting how an organization that's a front would be so critical of said front. Not to say that Newlines is free of bias or isn't associated with some group here or there, but to use that as a "but but but... they aren't totally independent" as though that's the smoking gun for why a study on an unrelated matter is less credible or valuable is, honestly, a little sad - like grasping for straws.


When The Squad criticizes the policy decisions of the Biden administration or the establishment party leadership, do they cease to be Democrats? The Muslim Brotherhood is the oldest, largest, and biggest tent organization within the global Sunni Islamist movement; it has lots of factions that are in struggle for organizational control and the direction of policy. One of those factions has argued and continues to argue that the best path forward for the Brotherhood in Egypt is to seek some degree of accommodation with secular liberals in an effort to ween the United States away from its reliance on the partnership with the Egyptian military so the Muslim Brotherhood can pursue its Islamist agenda without the specter of future revanchism and suppression by the US-backed military junta. The piece you linked is a postmortem of the abortive Arab Spring revolution in Egypt, and a critique of the policy decisions and failures of the more hardline Morsi faction of the Muslim Brotherhood. It isn't evidence that Newlines isn't a Brotherhood-connected org, it's just an indication of where they stand in relation to the Brotherhood's internal factional politics.

Newlines is a project of the International Institute for Islamic Thought, a Muslim Brotherhood connected Islamist organization. For perspective, here is the mission statement of the IIIT:

Quote:
IIIT is dedicated to the revival and reform of Islamic Though and its methodology in order to enable the Ummah to deal effectively with present challenges and contribute to the progress of human civilization in ways that will give it meaning and direction.


Presenting an analysis of an Islamist organization of China's policies directed at the containment of an Islamist separatist movement within its own sovereign national territory as if it were an "unbiased" or "independent" analysis untainted by vested interests is misleading at best and actively deceptive if done knowingly.

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I really will never understand why tankies defend China so much. Yeah, the right is truly awful when it comes to its racist, warmongering obsession with China, especially with the jealous undertones for what amounts to a dream for conservatives; a one-party autocratic capitalist state on steroids. You can bet there's Republicans salivating at the thought of that. Yet, that also begs the question why tankies are so inclined to fight any suggestion of impropriety on behalf of China; a state that has a track-record of imperialist activities, hellbent on expanding and growing a capitalist, mercantile economy. Is it because they offer an 'alternative' to the West... because here's the thing, China is knee-deep in the West in every way that matters, they just have the luxury of claiming that they're not.


I can't speak for "tankies," whoever the fuck they might be, but I can tell you why PSL defends China. As socialists in the belly of the imperial beast, we have an obligation to stand against the imperialist designs of the American ruling class. US imperialism has been and remains by far the biggest threat to global peace and security, and the United States has a long and ongoing history of leveraging supposed humanitarian concerns as a justification for military interventionism in the pursuit of American global hegemony. We will not be a part of helping to weaponize those concerns on behalf of the American empire. There is no good that can come of that.
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Derigin
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Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:46 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
When The Squad criticizes the policy decisions of the Biden administration or the establishment party leadership, do they cease to be Democrats? The Muslim Brotherhood is the oldest, largest, and biggest tent organization within the global Sunni Islamist movement; it has lots of factions that are in struggle for organizational control and the direction of policy. One of those factions has argued and continues to argue that the best path forward for the Brotherhood in Egypt is to seek some degree of accommodation with secular liberals in an effort to ween the United States away from its reliance on the partnership with the Egyptian military so the Muslim Brotherhood can pursue its Islamist agenda without the specter of future revanchism and suppression by the US-backed military junta. The piece you linked is a postmortem of the abortive Arab Spring revolution in Egypt, and a critique of the policy decisions and failures of the more hardline Morsi faction of the Muslim Brotherhood. It isn't evidence that Newlines isn't a Brotherhood-connected org, it's just an indication of where they stand in relation to the Brotherhood's internal factional politics.

Newlines is a project of the International Institute for Islamic Thought, a Muslim Brotherhood connected Islamist organization. For perspective, here is the mission statement of the IIIT:

Quote:
IIIT is dedicated to the revival and reform of Islamic Though and its methodology in order to enable the Ummah to deal effectively with present challenges and contribute to the progress of human civilization in ways that will give it meaning and direction.


Presenting an analysis of an Islamist organization of China's policies directed at the containment of an Islamist separatist movement within its own sovereign national territory as if it were an "unbiased" or "independent" analysis untainted by vested interests is misleading at best and actively deceptive if done knowingly.

So to narrow it down, your big issue with this is that it's allegedly Muslims writing about something that impacts Muslims, and somehow by that alone it makes their study "misleading" and "deceptive." Now, if it was anyone from the West doing this, you'd find that to be an inherent fault, too. Even if a study somehow came out of China, or even a neighboring state, or even a think-tank somewhere in the developing world, you'd probably find something about it that isn't palatable. But in this case, it's because they're Muslim. You've dismissed the study totally offhand on that alone, probably without even looking at it.

What would it take for you to believe that crimes are being committed here?

Quote:
I can't speak for "tankies," whoever the fuck they might be, but I can tell you why PSL defends China. As socialists in the belly of the imperial beast, we have an obligation to stand against the imperialist designs of the American ruling class. US imperialism has been and remains by far the biggest threat to global peace and security, and the United States has a long and ongoing history of leveraging supposed humanitarian concerns as a justification for military interventionism in the pursuit of American global hegemony. We will not be a part of helping to weaponize those concerns on behalf of the American empire. There is no good that can come of that.

Considering how intrinsically tied China is to the American empire, and how they've prospered under American global hegemony, and really, honestly, how they're imperialist in their own right, adopting methods and means akin to the Americans to prop up capitalism, you would think your organization might not want to defend them. That seems like a significant thing to overlook from an ideological and policy perspective.
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EldritchSun
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Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:51 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:25 pm 
 

ObservationSlave wrote:
From what I've seen, Biden has been super careful about criticizing China. China has the whole world by the balls and flexing their power literally every day. They're basically like "Yeah, we'll commit a genocide and you won't do shit about it." And they're right. Hollywood can't even make a movie without China's approval. An NBA Exec can't even criticize China's handling of Hong Kong without causing uproar. They are the new world power and it appears as if we will have to get used to that.

I imagine Biden will spend his entire Presidency tiptoeing around the issue of China and things will only get worse. Can you imagine the outcry if there was a European country rounding up Muslims into camps? It's absolutely insane that China is able to get away with it, and that speaks to their immense power and control.


So much for USA's crusade to save the world.

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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:25 pm 
 

ObservationSlave wrote:
From what I've seen, Biden has been super careful about criticizing China. China has the whole world by the balls and flexing their power literally every day. They're basically like "Yeah, we'll commit a genocide and you won't do shit about it." And they're right. Hollywood can't even make a movie without China's approval. An NBA Exec can't even criticize China's handling of Hong Kong without causing uproar. They are the new world power and it appears as if we will have to get used to that.

I imagine Biden will spend his entire Presidency tiptoeing around the issue of China and things will only get worse. Can you imagine the outcry if there was a European country rounding up Muslims into camps? It's absolutely insane that China is able to get away with it, and that speaks to their immense power and control.

It's actually amazing how no one has the courage to actually give China a wake up call for their actions, even after they've been found to have been doing a lot of crazy stuff. Seriously, the Uyghurs are having their entire culture wiped away as we speak, and there hasn't been any serious consequences happening to China as of now.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:13 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
So to narrow it down, your big issue with this is that it's allegedly Muslims writing about something that impacts Muslims, and somehow by that alone it makes their study "misleading" and "deceptive."


The issue I have is not that this report came out of a Muslim organization, but that it came from an Islamist organization, an organization with a vested political interest in promoting and supporting Islamist movements around the world. The Uyghur separatist movement is largely made up of Islamist (and some outright jihadi) factions. Newlines is not an unbiased observer; they have a dog in the fight.

Quote:
Now, if it was anyone from the West doing this, you'd find that to be an inherent fault, too.


This is an organization "from the West." They're based out of Herndon, VA, right here in these United States. And yes, if another "Western" org with a direct political and ideological stake in promoting Uyghur separatism or fomenting conflict with China put out a similar report that was being uncritically reported in the capitalist media machine as being "independent" or "unbiased," I would certainly point out where their interests lie.

Quote:
What would it take for you to believe that crimes are being committed here?


Evidence not laundered through Western intelligence services, dubiously sourced from nutjobs like Adrian Zenz, or produced by organizations with obvious ulterior motives would be more convincing.

Quote:
Considering how intrinsically tied China is to the American empire


What, because the US outsources the manufacture of sneakers and iPhones there, China is "intrinsically tied to the American empire?" That is absurd, and a complete inversion of both reality and the common meaning of the English language

Quote:
and how they've prospered under American global hegemony


To suggest, even by implication, that China owes its prosperity to American global hegemony is absurd to the point of farce. China has been the wealthiest country on earth for most of the last 2000+ years, and only (temporarily) ceased to enjoy that status for the 100 or so years it fell under the rule of colonial robbers.

Quote:
and really, honestly, how they're imperialist in their own right, adopting methods and means akin to the Americans to prop up capitalism


Which methods would those be? The United States has 800 military installations outside its own borders. China has one. The United States has invaded or occupied literally dozens of foreign states in the last 30 years alone. China has done nothing of the sort. The United States has been responsible for coups in dozens of other countries. China is responsible for none. The United States is involved in active military operations in at least 7 countries right now. China has no active military operations anywhere. The United States has used non-state entities it effectively controls (like the IMF) to impoverish and loot dozens of countries. China has done nothing even remotely comparable. There is no universe in which one could legitimately find equivalence between the methods employed by the United States and China in pursuit of their international goals; to claim otherwise is facially nonsensical.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:59 am 
 

ObservationSlave wrote:
Can you imagine the outcry if there was a European country rounding up Muslims into camps? It's absolutely insane that China is able to get away with it, and that speaks to their immense power and control.

I'll do you one better: Can you imagine the outcry if the United States of America gave billions of tax dollars to almost single handedly prop up a country that violently enforces racial apartheid, maintains a militarized strip of land where they regularly open fire on men, women and children leaving countless dead for no real reason and literally practice soft-eugenics against legal immigrants based on skin color until they got caught by their own admission?

And yet the only ones who give a shit are politically irrelevant leftists and neo-Nazis, the latter of whom argue only in bad faith because they're Nazis, and the former of whom are dismissed as Nazis because we live in hellworld.


This isn't a whataboutism because I am also outraged at China for the Uyghurs, but at least part of our income isn't going as "aid" to buy more missles to blow up Muslim children in China.
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Methuen
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:31 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
(redacted the other waffle, keeping your question as it's reasonable) What would it take for you to believe that crimes are being committed here?


In the spirit of benefit-of-the-doubt about that think tank - here's a wikipedia article (free and easy to edit if it's spreading Islamist lies) with another 300+ citations, all about the fun and games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide - including comments from former camp inmates and many abused women. The world has stood by and just narrated this stuff far too many times now - how anyone can sit in-front of a computer and hand-wave it away again is beyond me.

I mean, this is straight out of the Harvey Weinstein playbook - attack the female victims with a smear campaign - "these women are unreliable witnesses to our atrocities because they've got STDs, have affairs, have 'bad characters'" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xinjiang-idUSKCN2AT1BA

Though in good news, and to answer my question above - Biden has reiterated the Trump-era view on matters, according to Reuters - at least they're not totally shying away.

Quote:
In rare U.S. bipartisan agreement, the top diplomats of the former administration of Donald Trump and the new one of Joe Biden have called China’s treatment of the Uighurs genocide, a stance adopted last week by the Canadian and Dutch parliaments.

China faces sanctions such as a ban on U.S purchases of Xinjiang cotton and tomatoes, and calls by some Western lawmakers to boycott the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics.




.
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Sepulchrave
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:21 am 
 

Islamist, jihadi and Islamic extremism are all synonyms to people who know nothing about geopolitics in the Muslim world.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:04 am 
 

Methuen, for shits and giggles, I took a gander at the citations from the Wiki article. Overwhelmingly, those citations are of newspaper articles and wire reports, which tells us nothing about the nature of the sourcing of information. The problem is that all of those published articles circle back to the same bare handful of underlying primary sources. For comparison, one could easily go back to 2002/2003 and find hundreds of separate media accounts of Iraq's alleged "weapons of mass destruction," yet we know for a fact that those weapons did not actually exist. Repeating information from the same source in 50 different publications doesn't magically transform it into 50 different sources.
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