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Space_alligator
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:43 am
Posts: 412
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:04 pm 
 

https://www.metalsucks.net/2021/02/01/marilyn-manson-dropped-by-record-label-following-abuse-claims/

Quote:
“In light of today’s disturbing allegations by Evan Rachel Wood and other women naming Marilyn Manson as their abuser, Loma Vista will cease to further promote his current album, effective immediately. Due to these concerning developments, we have also decided not to work with Marilyn Manson on any future projects.”


Also, amount of people blaming Evan for not leaving earlier is disturbing .
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MutantClannfear
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:16 pm 
 

Moved to the non-metal forum.
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NorseDave
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:39 am
Posts: 106
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:06 pm 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
Moved to the non-metal forum.


I moved to children's religious music instead. Maybe the only remaining way to listen to some stuff without having irreconcilable moral dilemmas!

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Gravetemplar
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:15 pm 
 

This was one of those secrets everybody knew. Not surprised he's a disgusting person, the character eat the real Brian a long time ago. He treated his bandmates like shit so it's not surprising he did the same with his partners. It's sad because I got into metal thanks to him but it's not like he's released anything worthwhile since Holy Wood so yeah, fuck him.

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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 742
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:19 pm 
 

Geez, I didn't think the abuse claims would go as far as to lead to Manson getting dropped from his label.

Could this be the true start of the downfall for Manson?
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Subrick
Metal Strongman

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:33 pm 
 

I was not actually expecting Manson to get in some kind of major trouble over this, and certainly not the same day Evan spoke out. We're in an age now where Manson's shitty behavior can't be excused away as being part of his act.
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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 742
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:59 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
I was not actually expecting Manson to get in some kind of major trouble over this, and certainly not the same day Evan spoke out. We're in an age now where Manson's shitty behavior can't be excused away as being part of his act.

I still remember back in the wake of the Columbine shooting where the media tried to blame Manson for causing the shooting and ruin his life, but he was able to survive that, considering Harris and Klebold didn't even like his music.

I'm not sure about this incident though. Manson might end up being behind bars with these crimes since domestic violence is taken more seriously than ever with the #MeToo movement and all.
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Subrick
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:09 pm 
 

Sadly, this might be the extent of his punishment, as I'm certain that whatever he did to all these women is outside the statute of limitations.
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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 869
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:33 am 
 

Slater922 wrote:
Geez, I didn't think the abuse claims would go as far as to lead to Manson getting dropped from his label.

Could this be the true start of the downfall for Manson?


Very well could be. Bigger names have fallen due to shit like this. Just take a look at how drastically people changed their view of Bill Cosby

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Gravetemplar
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:04 am 
 

https://twitter.com/rosemcgowan/status/ ... 0926691328

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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:40 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
https://twitter.com/rosemcgowan/status/1356319160926691328

Here's what the tweet says in case it gets deleted:

Quote:
I stand with Evan Rachel Wood and other brave women who have come forward. It takes years to recover from abuse and I send them strength on their journey to recovery. Let the truth be revealed. Let the healing begin.
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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 1014
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:58 am 
 

So, nothing must've happened during their time together, because Rose has been pretty vocal this whole time and I don't remember her ever saying anything about Manson.
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DoomMetalAlchemist
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:10 am
Posts: 2016
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:37 am 
 

There's three basic types of domestic abuse, those being physical abuse, sexual abuse, and emotional abuse. I'm wondering which one(s) Manson's guilty of and / or being accused of.

EDIT: Nevermind, the FFA thread had links with the details. What a piece of shit.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1883
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:19 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
This was one of those secrets everybody knew. Not surprised he's a disgusting person, the character eat the real Brian a long time ago. He treated his bandmates like shit so it's not surprising he did the same with his partners. It's sad because I got into metal thanks to him but it's not like he's released anything worthwhile since Holy Wood so yeah, fuck him.


I have also had the view that he probably wasn't very pleasant as a person but this is crazy. Isn't it just allegations at this point? I think everyone should've had a cooler head and waited until he was sentenced or until he admitted to something.

At this point its still word against word, right? It's a dangerous path to take if we are to give someone their punishment before they have been sentenced.
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Unity
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:42 pm
Posts: 1795
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:27 pm 
 

He's the artist that got me into music. I knew he was fucked up, but this shit is just downright unacceptable. I'm not even sure if I'll ever see him live again. Anyway, here's his response:

"Obviously, my art and my life have long been magnets for controversy, but these recent claims about me are horrible distortions of reality. My intimate relationships have always been entirely consensual with like-minded partners. Regardless of how – and why – others are now choosing to misrepresent the past, that is the truth."

— Marilyn Manson
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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:34 pm 
 

DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
There's three basic types of domestic abuse, those being physical abuse, sexual abuse, and emotional abuse. I'm wondering which one(s) Manson's guilty of and / or being accused of.

EDIT: Nevermind, the FFA thread had links with the details. What a piece of shit.

Yeah it's literally all of them. Dude raped, tortured and emotionally abused women for years.

The details are horrific and stomach-churning. An absolute psychopath.

InnesI wrote:
I have also had the view that he probably wasn't very pleasant as a person but this is crazy. Isn't it just allegations at this point? I think everyone should've had a cooler head and waited until he was sentenced or until he admitted to something.

At this point its still word against word, right? It's a dangerous path to take if we are to give someone their punishment before they have been sentenced.


Oh piss off with "this is crazy" and your condescending "cooler heads" bullshit. DoomMetalAlchemist isn't "punishing anyone" by writing a forum post.

Plus:
- false accusations are statistically rare
- rapists getting convicted is statistically extremely low, if that were the standard for calling out abusers almost all of them would get away with it
- the dude already had history of confirmed sexual assault (he rubbed his crotch in a security guard's face, got a slap on the wrist for it)
- numerous women accused him with similar testimonies showing a pattern of behaviour
- before even naming him, Evan Rachel Wood worked super hard with Congress to pass legislation for abuse victims to remove statutes of limitation, which isn't what false accusers ever do.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:48 pm 
 

Yeah, even his personal assistant at the time has already confirmed he was a terrible person.

https://twitter.com/DanCleary79/status/ ... 8489076739

I also don't believe in the justice system so all the "wait until he's sentenced" crap is not for me, sorry. I couldn't care less, dude's definitely guilty. No way +5 people accusing him of the same shit are all lying, not how the world works.

Unity wrote:
He's the artist that got me into music. I knew he was fucked up, but this shit is just downright unacceptable. I'm not even sure if I'll ever see him live again. Anyway, here's his response:

"Obviously, my art and my life have long been magnets for controversy, but these recent claims about me are horrible distortions of reality. My intimate relationships have always been entirely consensual with like-minded partners. Regardless of how – and why – others are now choosing to misrepresent the past, that is the truth."

— Marilyn Manson

Yeah, me too. Rock Is Dead and the whole Matrix soundtrack got me interested in music as well.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:52 pm 
 

People always think abuse victims are just making up their stories for attention as if there's throngs of fake-victims out there with huge money contracts and adoring fans after making up rape stories. What a magical universe you must live in to believe that.
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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:19 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
People always think abuse victims are just making up their stories for attention as if there's throngs of fake-victims out there with huge money contracts and adoring fans after making up rape stories. What a magical universe you must live in to believe that.

Yeah, I think it's obvious that Wood has gone through some terrible shit, and people calling her a liar is just ridiculous.
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Exister
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:06 pm
Posts: 150
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:50 pm 
 

Another accusation, from artist Chloe Black:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKzO42BHZY9/

Sorry, I don't know how to show the message I just know how to link it. Really fucked up stuff. I've been a fan since I was 10 (I'm 27 now). I mean, he was essentially my introduction to the world of rock/alternative/whatever you want to call it. So in that way it's bummed me out to find this out. On the other hand, I don't think anybody is truly surprised! I found this on a Manson forum and the users defending him because of "cancel culture" are fucking idiots.
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NorseDave
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:39 am
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:17 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
I also don't believe in the justice system so all the "wait until he's sentenced" crap is not for me, sorry. I couldn't care less, dude's definitely guilty. No way +5 people accusing him of the same shit are all lying, not how the world works.


Yeah, because it never happened that someone has been victim of false accusations! I don't say that is the case on this situation, we'll see, but this hasty punitive attitude is truly disgusting and I'm frankly shocked that someone that identify himself as lefty can think that way. I really don't understand how you don't see that this despicable justicialism doesn't belong to a civil society, but it's more suitable on totalitarian system, and all the blame and disdain can fall on Manson but once he's found guilty, not after only 24 hours that some allegations have been made!

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Twisted_Psychology
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Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:21 pm 
 

This is all especially rich when you consider that Manson dumped Twiggy Ramirez after similar allegations about him came to light. Not to mention that the cries of "innocent until proven guilty" ring hollow when you consider that he himself frequently talked about how shitty and abusive he was to women. It's in his autobiography for all the world to see but I guess it's a distortion of reality when the world finally gets around to seeing it. He deserves all the flak he's getting and then some.
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NorseDave
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:32 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
This is all especially rich when you consider that Manson dumped Twiggy Ramirez after similar allegations about him came to light. Not to mention that the cries of "innocent until proven guilty" ring hollow when you consider that he himself frequently talked about how shitty and abusive he was to women. It's in his autobiography for all the world to see but I guess it's a distortion of reality when the world finally gets around to seeing it. He deserves all the flak he's getting and then some.


From what I remember (but I've read that many years) he doesn't label himself as an "abusive piece of shit", but he describes some BDSM relationships he had! As a matter of fact, in the brief reply he did after the allegations he didn't denied that something may have happened, but he said it was consensual.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:35 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
InnesI wrote:
I have also had the view that he probably wasn't very pleasant as a person but this is crazy. Isn't it just allegations at this point? I think everyone should've had a cooler head and waited until he was sentenced or until he admitted to something.

At this point its still word against word, right? It's a dangerous path to take if we are to give someone their punishment before they have been sentenced.


Oh piss off with "this is crazy" and your condescending "cooler heads" bullshit. DoomMetalAlchemist isn't "punishing anyone" by writing a forum post.

Plus:
- false accusations are statistically rare
- rapists getting convicted is statistically extremely low, if that were the standard for calling out abusers almost all of them would get away with it
- the dude already had history of confirmed sexual assault (he rubbed his crotch in a security guard's face, got a slap on the wrist for it)
- u]numerous[/u] women accused him with similar testimonies showing a pattern of behaviour
- before even naming him, Evan Rachel Wood worked super hard with Congress to pass legislation for abuse victims to remove statutes of limitation, which isn't what false accusers ever do.


I did not claim that DoomMetalAlchemist is punishing anyone - your accusation holds no ground. I said that Mansons employers are.

As far as I know all the point you list under "plus" are true. I'm just saying that one should not be punished before one is convicted. You know as a rechtsstaat which I think we all support (or should support). Do you not support this?

Do I think Manson is guilty? I don't know but from reading his auobiography he sure didn't seem like a nice guy at all (and that was released as early as 1998). That he's been an asshole has been known at least since then. So if he's found guilty I'm not surprised but I don't think anyone should be judged based on accusations alone. Same goes for any case, celebrity or not. I'm all for a harder line when it comes to punish violent crimes. Punish hard but also punish those who are proven guilty - legal certainty.

I'm up for a dialogue but if you keep being rude there is nothing there for me. I'd rather focus on all the level headed people here who can carry a dialogue without insulting other people regardless of is they agree with me or not.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:48 pm 
 

A lot of these things will never have the satisfactory "bar" of evidence that will convince you 100% that he did it if you're taking that route though. If you keep on taking the tack of "well we should see how it plays out" it ends up just sounding like disbelieving victims for no real reason.

Victims never came forward in the past for a lot of reasons, mostly the awful system here in which celebs' voices and statuses were considered more important than anyone else's. So it became a huge uphill battle for any victims to come out at all. There won't always be a TV-show-esque ending where it's proved that he did it conclusively and whatnot. Just fucking believe victims until you have some actual reason not to.
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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:50 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
InnesI wrote:
I have also had the view that he probably wasn't very pleasant as a person but this is crazy. Isn't it just allegations at this point? I think everyone should've had a cooler head and waited until he was sentenced or until he admitted to something.

At this point its still word against word, right? It's a dangerous path to take if we are to give someone their punishment before they have been sentenced.


Oh piss off with "this is crazy" and your condescending "cooler heads" bullshit. DoomMetalAlchemist isn't "punishing anyone" by writing a forum post.

Plus:
- false accusations are statistically rare
- rapists getting convicted is statistically extremely low, if that were the standard for calling out abusers almost all of them would get away with it
- the dude already had history of confirmed sexual assault (he rubbed his crotch in a security guard's face, got a slap on the wrist for it)
- u]numerous[/u] women accused him with similar testimonies showing a pattern of behaviour
- before even naming him, Evan Rachel Wood worked super hard with Congress to pass legislation for abuse victims to remove statutes of limitation, which isn't what false accusers ever do.


I did not claim that DoomMetalAlchemist is punishing anyone - your accusation holds no ground. I said that Mansons employers are.

As far as I know all the point you list under "plus" are true. I'm just saying that one should not be punished before one is convicted. You know as a rechtsstaat which I think we all support (or should support). Do you not support this?

Do I think Manson is guilty? I don't know but from reading his auobiography he sure didn't seem like a nice guy at all (and that was released as early as 1998). That he's been an asshole has been known at least since then. So if he's found guilty I'm not surprised but I don't think anyone should be judged based on accusations alone. Same goes for any case, celebrity or not. I'm all for a harder line when it comes to punish violent crimes. Punish hard but also punish those who are proven guilty - legal certainty.

I'm up for a dialogue but if you keep being rude there is nothing there for me. I'd rather focus on all the level headed people here who can carry a dialogue without insulting other people regardless of is they agree with me or not.


Dudes are always like, "Well why didn't she report?" but then when someone reports, the same dudes are always the first to pop up and be like, "I don't know guys, what if they're just a slut?"

Like maybe, just maybe, for the survivors among us and for the folks who may unfortunately be survivors in the future, you could just STFU about this brah.
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NorseDave
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:39 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:57 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
A lot of these things will never have the satisfactory "bar" of evidence that will convince you 100% that he did it if you're taking that route though. If you keep on taking the tack of "well we should see how it plays out" it ends up just sounding like disbelieving victims for no real reason.

Victims never came forward in the past for a lot of reasons, mostly the awful system here in which celebs' voices and statuses were considered more important than anyone else's. So it became a huge uphill battle for any victims to come out at all. There won't always be a TV-show-esque ending where it's proved that he did it conclusively and whatnot. Just fucking believe victims until you have some actual reason not to.


I agree upon that, but I really think that it's possible to strongly believe the victims without summarily sentence the alleged perpretator, since we're not the judge nor the jury.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:02 pm 
 

NorseDave wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
A lot of these things will never have the satisfactory "bar" of evidence that will convince you 100% that he did it if you're taking that route though. If you keep on taking the tack of "well we should see how it plays out" it ends up just sounding like disbelieving victims for no real reason.

Victims never came forward in the past for a lot of reasons, mostly the awful system here in which celebs' voices and statuses were considered more important than anyone else's. So it became a huge uphill battle for any victims to come out at all. There won't always be a TV-show-esque ending where it's proved that he did it conclusively and whatnot. Just fucking believe victims until you have some actual reason not to.


I agree upon that, but I really think that it's possible to strongly believe the victims without summarily sentence the alleged perpretator, since we're not the judge nor the jury.


Please point out where any of us "sentenced" anybody.
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NorseDave
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:06 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
NorseDave wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
A lot of these things will never have the satisfactory "bar" of evidence that will convince you 100% that he did it if you're taking that route though. If you keep on taking the tack of "well we should see how it plays out" it ends up just sounding like disbelieving victims for no real reason.

Victims never came forward in the past for a lot of reasons, mostly the awful system here in which celebs' voices and statuses were considered more important than anyone else's. So it became a huge uphill battle for any victims to come out at all. There won't always be a TV-show-esque ending where it's proved that he did it conclusively and whatnot. Just fucking believe victims until you have some actual reason not to.


I agree upon that, but I really think that it's possible to strongly believe the victims without summarily sentence the alleged perpretator, since we're not the judge nor the jury.


Please point out where any of us "sentenced" anybody.


Well, sorry, maybe you missed it, but the Gravetemplar post I've replied to above is the paradigm of that.

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:09 pm 
 

NorseDave wrote:
Well, sorry, maybe you missed it, but the Gravetemplar post I've replied to above is the paradigm of that.


So is Gravetemplar a judge with the power to pass sentence, or are they just someone on a message forum sharing an opinion? Because if it's the latter, you don't really have a fucking point.
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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:15 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
A lot of these things will never have the satisfactory "bar" of evidence that will convince you 100% that he did it if you're taking that route though. If you keep on taking the tack of "well we should see how it plays out" it ends up just sounding like disbelieving victims for no real reason.

Victims never came forward in the past for a lot of reasons, mostly the awful system here in which celebs' voices and statuses were considered more important than anyone else's. So it became a huge uphill battle for any victims to come out at all. There won't always be a TV-show-esque ending where it's proved that he did it conclusively and whatnot. Just fucking believe victims until you have some actual reason not to.


That is a problem of course. And I want to be clear (again) in that I don't claim to not believe the victims. I think they probably are very right. From what I've read about Manson, and by him, he seems to be very able to treat people very badly. But yes, at the same time I think a proper society shouldn't judge someone before he or she is sentenced by a jury.

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Dudes are always like, "Well why didn't she report?" but then when someone reports, the same dudes are always the first to pop up and be like, "I don't know guys, what if they're just a slut?"

Like maybe, just maybe, for the survivors among us and for the folks who may unfortunately be survivors in the future, you could just STFU about this brah.


"Brah" just to be clear I never said anything like that. Please don't attach things to me that I never expressed.

There's great research done about why victims are hesitant to report crimes in general but sexual crimes specifically (or other crimes that has a lot of shameful feelings attached to it). Its also pretty well documented how people are either drawn in by a celebritys fame and money or by their manipulation so even if they have heard of all the bad rumours they still choose to go with said person (the multi-part documentary on R-Kelly did a great job with this). I know this first hand since I worked with a rape victim about six months ago and I encouraged her to first tell her mother and of course also to report it. But she expressed just this, shame as well as fear of social impact (since the rapist was someone who was well liked among her peers in school). Such tragedy.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:24 pm 
 

Don't fucking play coy. Reflexive skepticism is reflexive skepticism, and it is the very essence of rape culture. Don't fucking do it.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:33 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Don't fucking play coy. Reflexive skepticism is reflexive skepticism, and it is the very essence of rape culture. Don't fucking do it.


I'm not familiar with the specific term "reflexive scepticism". Care to elaborate?
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NorseDave
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:39 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:33 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
NorseDave wrote:
Well, sorry, maybe you missed it, but the Gravetemplar post I've replied to above is the paradigm of that.


So is Gravetemplar a judge with the power to pass sentence, or are they just someone on a message forum sharing an opinion? Because if it's the latter, you don't really have a fucking point.


You know what I mean, don't misinterpret my point please. Of course he's not in the position to sentence anyone, but that's doesn't mean that the opinion he shared wasn't an example of poor justicialism. Of course, he's free to think that way as I'm free to point that out!


Last edited by MutantClannfear on Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Great! And you can keep pointing it out! With your cute little exclamation points! on ANOTHER FORUM because we're tired of your "moral police" whiny bullshit. You're banned until 2023, hope you stop being a manchild between now and then, bye.

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:41 pm 
 

Reflexive, i.e. by reflex, automatic.
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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:45 pm 
 

NorseDave wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
NorseDave wrote:
Well, sorry, maybe you missed it, but the Gravetemplar post I've replied to above is the paradigm of that.


So is Gravetemplar a judge with the power to pass sentence, or are they just someone on a message forum sharing an opinion? Because if it's the latter, you don't really have a fucking point.


You know what I mean, don't misinterpret my point please. Of course he's not in the position to sentence anyone, but that's doesn't mean that the opinion he shared wasn't an example of poor justicialism. Of course, he's free to think that way as I'm free to point that out!


In the absence of positive evidence of dishonesty, there really is no good reason not to assume the honesty of an accuser, and the social value of doing so far outweighs any potential negative consequences.

And you can stop playing coy, too. These rape apologias are fucking tiresome, and they are immensely harmful. Unless you have concrete evidence that the accuser was dishonest or mistaken, you really should STFU.
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Inkshooter
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:46 pm 
 

Never been a fan. I'm not going to say I suspected he was like this based on personal intuition (and I hate it when people do that), but I believe it.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:00 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Reflexive, i.e. by reflex, automatic.


Ok, I thought you were referring to some specific psychological theory.

In that case if one has reflexive scepticism one shold be scpetical about both the women and of manson stories. But obviously such a stance is not very productive. The opposite isn't much better though - reflexive trust. As with everything there needs to be a balance between the two. I just think one should be cool headed and really try the case. Hopefully the jury and judge will arrive close to the actual happenings and if found guilty he'd be punished appropriately.
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Gravetemplar
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:16 pm 
 

Why is it that rape and abuse are the only contexts where people always cry "don't jump to conclusions until a jury has declared him guilty"? Don' bother answering, it's a rhetorical question. I already figured out some of you don't care about the victims at all. All you only care abut perpetuating a society in which men can do as they please. At least 5 women and one man have already given you a lot of information about the kind of person Manson is and your only solution is to not believe those affected "until it has been proven by a jury". You're just afraid people can call out your shitty behaviour without your tempered juries to back you up.

I also don't understand why are some of you so obsessed about this going to trial. Have you asked the victims if that's what they want? Maybe the reason is you all know deep down the system has failed survivors of sexual assault countless times and you know he will probably go unpunished like so many people before him. That must be it because I can't honestly think why would anyone want victims reliving the worst experience of their lives in front of a bunch of people just so the abuser goes free with just a warning.

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
NorseDave wrote:
Well, sorry, maybe you missed it, but the Gravetemplar post I've replied to above is the paradigm of that.


So is Gravetemplar a judge with the power to pass sentence, or are they just someone on a message forum sharing an opinion? Because if it's the latter, you don't really have a fucking point.

This. I don't need a fucking jury to tell me what to think and what my opinion on a forum should be.

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Sedition and Pockets
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:26 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
Reflexive, i.e. by reflex, automatic.


Ok, I thought you were referring to some specific psychological theory.

In that case if one has reflexive scepticism one shold be scpetical about both the women and of manson stories. But obviously such a stance is not very productive. The opposite isn't much better though - reflexive trust. As with everything there needs to be a balance between the two. I just think one should be cool headed and really try the case. Hopefully the jury and judge will arrive close to the actual happenings and if found guilty he'd be punished appropriately.


This position is stupid and offensive. There is basically no real cost to assuming the credibility of accusers, and enormous cost—both in terms of discouraging reporting and psychologically re-victimizing survivors—to the pose of neutrality.
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