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__MULLIGANACEOUS__
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:12 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:42 pm 
 

ZOMFGmuiden why don't they accuse Manson immediately?
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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 747
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:04 pm 
 

__MULLIGANACEOUS__ wrote:
ZOMFGmuiden why don't they accuse Manson immediately?

Manson was still huge at the time of these incidents, and his lawyers would've shut them down fast. However, since Manson isn't as huge as he was 20 years ago, he may be more likely to be sentenced.
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 608
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:51 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
There is basically no real cost to assuming the credibility of accusers, and enormous cost—both in terms of discouraging reporting and psychologically re-victimizing survivors—to the pose of neutrality.

I agree with this. Which is why I still believe that Joe Biden is a rapist.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10050
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:42 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
I'm up for a dialogue but if you keep being rude there is nothing there for me. I'd rather focus on all the level headed people here who can carry a dialogue without insulting other people regardless of is they agree with me or not.

Waaaah. Because saying others (including me, in this very sentence) are not level-headed isn't insulting? So you tone-police me and insult me in the same sentence? You're the one who called another poster "crazy" and alleged he didn't have a "cool head" for his opinion. How about that, you condescending hypocrite?

Let's be real. You aren't smart or level-headed, you're just a smarmy, pretentious little shit who constantly concerns trolls about everything from racist insurrectionists to sexual predators, and I'm sick of you and your bullshit. And you have some nerve to pretend you're some bastion of level-headed civility when you post nothing but insulting and condescending tripe over and over.

Go away.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 29644
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:45 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
A lot of these things will never have the satisfactory "bar" of evidence that will convince you 100% that he did it if you're taking that route though. If you keep on taking the tack of "well we should see how it plays out" it ends up just sounding like disbelieving victims for no real reason.

Victims never came forward in the past for a lot of reasons, mostly the awful system here in which celebs' voices and statuses were considered more important than anyone else's. So it became a huge uphill battle for any victims to come out at all. There won't always be a TV-show-esque ending where it's proved that he did it conclusively and whatnot. Just fucking believe victims until you have some actual reason not to.


That is a problem of course. And I want to be clear (again) in that I don't claim to not believe the victims. I think they probably are very right. From what I've read about Manson, and by him, he seems to be very able to treat people very badly. But yes, at the same time I think a proper society shouldn't judge someone before he or she is sentenced by a jury.


What do you think people have done in society about every single issue - judging is all people do; we all form opinions at various levels about things we read and hear about. This is not some radical wave of crazy people trying to burn celebrities at the stake. Don't be ridiculous.
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__MULLIGANACEOUS__
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:12 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:18 am 
 

Slater922 wrote:
__MULLIGANACEOUS__ wrote:
...

Manson was still huge at the time of these incidents, and his lawyers would've shut them down fast. However, since Manson isn't as huge as he was 20 years ago, he may be more likely to be sentenced.


Then how did Larry Nassar do the same cursed predatory abuse for decades without being convicted, even though there were already accusations years before his conviction?
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EldritchSun
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Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:51 pm
Posts: 324
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:09 am 
 

A shame. I hold his artistic vision (both musical and aesthetical) in high regard, but this is just horrible. Chances that this is true are really high tho.

The "innocent until proven guilty" argument is something that's harder and harder to come up with nowadays. No matter what's the deal, people will put into the victim's side, especially in these kind of sexual issues (most of time is the right call). Remember the Decapitated thing? How many people called them rapists right away and in the end it was all a fabrication of the supposed victim? No one apologized to them and their reputation was stained forever. I'm not saying that's the case here (as I said, Manson's accusations are probably true), but the smartest stance is just wait for a trial and its outcome.

Dagon's case for example: even if the events happened way before the public eye knew about them, there was a sentence and that motherfucker plead guilty. There's a lot of information about the evidence found, so there's no reasonable doubt about him being a pedo. That's a fact. The Schaffer's treason against USA? It can't be denied either. Those are facts.

I personally hope that same certainty about these accusations to make a serious judgement about Manson.

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Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2660
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:21 am 
 

EldritchSun wrote:
A shame. I hold his artistic vision (both musical and aesthetical) in high regard, but this is just horrible. Chances that this is true are really high tho.

The "innocent until proven guilty" argument is something that's harder and harder to come up with nowadays. No matter what's the deal, people will put into the victim's side, especially in these kind of sexual issues (most of time is the right call). Remember the Decapitated thing? How many people called them rapists right away and in the end it was all a fabrication of the supposed victim? No one apologized to them and their reputation was stained forever. I'm not saying that's the case here (as I said, Manson's accusations are probably true), but the smartest stance is just wait for a trial and its outcome.

Dagon's case for example: even if the events happened way before the public eye knew about them, there was a sentence and that motherfucker plead guilty. There's a lot of information about the evidence found, so there's no reasonable doubt about him being a pedo. That's a fact. The Schaffer's treason against USA? It can't be denied either. Those are facts.

I personally hope that same certainty about these accusations to make a serious judgement about Manson.

Where did you get that the Decapitated thing was just a fabrication? It's not the case afaik. The charges of rape and kidnapping made against them dropped due to the “well-being of the victim” but they weren't declared innocent or anything. "The charges were dismissed without prejudice, meaning the four men could be charged again in the future".

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EldritchSun
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:51 pm
Posts: 324
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:26 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
EldritchSun wrote:
A shame. I hold his artistic vision (both musical and aesthetical) in high regard, but this is just horrible. Chances that this is true are really high tho.

The "innocent until proven guilty" argument is something that's harder and harder to come up with nowadays. No matter what's the deal, people will put into the victim's side, especially in these kind of sexual issues (most of time is the right call). Remember the Decapitated thing? How many people called them rapists right away and in the end it was all a fabrication of the supposed victim? No one apologized to them and their reputation was stained forever. I'm not saying that's the case here (as I said, Manson's accusations are probably true), but the smartest stance is just wait for a trial and its outcome.

Dagon's case for example: even if the events happened way before the public eye knew about them, there was a sentence and that motherfucker plead guilty. There's a lot of information about the evidence found, so there's no reasonable doubt about him being a pedo. That's a fact. The Schaffer's treason against USA? It can't be denied either. Those are facts.

I personally hope that same certainty about these accusations to make a serious judgement about Manson.

Where did you get that the Decapitated thing was just a fabrication? It's not the case afaik. The charges of rape and kidnapping made against them dropped due to the “well-being of the victim” but they weren't declared innocent or anything. "The charges were dismissed without prejudice, meaning the four men could be charged again in the future".


I vaguely remembered that was the case, since several witnesses placed the girl in the front row of the show at the venue and the bruises she had were made in the moshpit or something like that. I'll look into it.

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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 747
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:00 am 
 

EldritchSun wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
EldritchSun wrote:
A shame. I hold his artistic vision (both musical and aesthetical) in high regard, but this is just horrible. Chances that this is true are really high tho.

The "innocent until proven guilty" argument is something that's harder and harder to come up with nowadays. No matter what's the deal, people will put into the victim's side, especially in these kind of sexual issues (most of time is the right call). Remember the Decapitated thing? How many people called them rapists right away and in the end it was all a fabrication of the supposed victim? No one apologized to them and their reputation was stained forever. I'm not saying that's the case here (as I said, Manson's accusations are probably true), but the smartest stance is just wait for a trial and its outcome.

Dagon's case for example: even if the events happened way before the public eye knew about them, there was a sentence and that motherfucker plead guilty. There's a lot of information about the evidence found, so there's no reasonable doubt about him being a pedo. That's a fact. The Schaffer's treason against USA? It can't be denied either. Those are facts.

I personally hope that same certainty about these accusations to make a serious judgement about Manson.

Where did you get that the Decapitated thing was just a fabrication? It's not the case afaik. The charges of rape and kidnapping made against them dropped due to the “well-being of the victim” but they weren't declared innocent or anything. "The charges were dismissed without prejudice, meaning the four men could be charged again in the future".


I vaguely remembered that was the case, since several witnesses placed the girl in the front row of the show at the venue and the bruises she had were made in the moshpit or something like that. I'll look into it.

I don't even listen to Decapitated, so I didn't really pay no mind to the case. But if she was raped and those band members got away with it, then I hope they get put on trial again and be properly convicted this time.
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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1883
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:01 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
What do you think people have done in society about every single issue - judging is all people do; we all form opinions at various levels about things we read and hear about. This is not some radical wave of crazy people trying to burn celebrities at the stake. Don't be ridiculous.


Again, I'm not against individuals making up their own mind on things. And I already said that I side with the victims. However, I think that before someone is shamed as much as to risk their careers there should be more substance and something more clear cut. There are examples of people getting wrongfully accused and it is important with some sort of security to hinder people jumping to conclusions and potentially ruin someones career. Its quite fast to fire someone over accusations in just 24 hours. To me they probably should have taken some time to look into the developments. But sure, if these things are true of course his employers should have the right to fire him. It is not about defending him. I don't care about the person Brian Warner. I'm just trying to see the bigger picture.

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
This position is stupid and offensive. There is basically no real cost to assuming the credibility of accusers, and enormous cost—both in terms of discouraging reporting and psychologically re-victimizing survivors—to the pose of neutrality.


Of course there is if the person i wrongfully accused. And again, I'm not saying Manson is but to not see a problem with both blindly believeing the accuser or blindly supporting the accused is quite astonishing. In both cases, if one is wrong it can destry lives. The balanced approach should be the one sought.

Morrigan wrote:
Waaaah. Because saying others (including me, in this very sentence) are not level-headed isn't insulting? So you tone-police me and insult me in the same sentence? You're the one who called another poster "crazy" and alleged he didn't have a "cool head" for his opinion. How about that, you condescending hypocrite?

Let's be real. You aren't smart or level-headed, you're just a smarmy, pretentious little shit who constantly concerns trolls about everything from racist insurrectionists to sexual predators, and I'm sick of you and your bullshit. And you have some nerve to pretend you're some bastion of level-headed civility when you post nothing but insulting and condescending tripe over and over.

Go away.


I didn't call Gravetemplar crazy, I called the quick reaction crazy. That is quite a difference. And calling for being level headed isn't an insult. I think you'd agree with me that when you post such things as what you posted above it is not level headed and I just want a dialogue without all the rudeness. Calling for a nice dialogue isn't an insult.

There are many on this forum that I respect and that are able to meet arguments and be cool with discussing even when not agreeing. I value that and I will continue to engage in discussions with those people.
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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 667
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:22 pm 
 

I think the important thing is to take accusations seriously. That doesn't mean burn your Manson stuff or go on his twitter to wish him ill, but at the same time,

a) it's normal that business partners would distance themselves (even temporarily, in the event of him being found not guilty) once the accusations are remotely credible

b) it's important to realize that it's unlikely for a woman (or a man!) to make up stories, and even less likely for a cabal of women to gang up to invent similar accusations. Is it at all possible? Yes, but it would be helpful for victims if people stopped assuming that to be the case, or at least, to be likely.

There just isn't much to gain, and the victims who accuse high profile people tend to attract even more unwanted attention (see Christine Ford, Kavanaugh's accuser; or just AOC, who didn't even name her abuser and is the target of absolutely heinous comments).

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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
Posts: 1116
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:40 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Sedition and Pockets wrote:
This position is stupid and offensive. There is basically no real cost to assuming the credibility of accusers, and enormous cost—both in terms of discouraging reporting and psychologically re-victimizing survivors—to the pose of neutrality.


Of course there is if the person i wrongfully accused. And again, I'm not saying Manson is but to not see a problem with both blindly believeing the accuser or blindly supporting the accused is quite astonishing. In both cases, if one is wrong it can destry lives. The balanced approach should be the one sought.


How does it "destroy lives" to presume the credibility of accusers? No one is arguing that accused predators should be sent to prison without due process. No one is arguing for punishing anyone without trial. When we say, "believe survivors," we mean that we have a positive obligation to make it more difficult for an accused predator to harm more victims in the meantime. We mean it is not ok to demonize or pursue character assassination and retaliation against accusers during the investigative process. Doing this causes no irreparable harm to anyone, much less does it "destroy lives."

The notion that there is some sort of equivalence between the harm faced by victims and society by rape and rapists and those rare cases in which false accusations are made is completely toxic and extraordinarily harmful, and you need to stop promoting this view.
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Luvers
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
Posts: 377
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:59 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Why is it that rape and abuse are the only contexts where people always cry "don't jump to conclusions until a jury has declared him guilty"? Don' bother answering, it's a rhetorical question. I already figured out some of you don't care about the victims at all. All you only care abut perpetuating a society in which men can do as they please. At least 5 women and one man have already given you a lot of information about the kind of person Manson is and your only solution is to not believe those affected "until it has been proven by a jury". You're just afraid people can call out your shitty behaviour without your tempered juries to back you up.
Because people can and do lie. It may not have been your point but the way this reads is you wish society could be dragged back to the 17th century, where a persons words were good enough to warrant conviction. Evidence? Must be too busy for that.
Gravetemplar wrote:
I also don't understand why are some of you so obsessed about this going to trial. Have you asked the victims if that's what they want?
Justice does not work like that, all whom are accused deserves the right to defend themselves. If you really think that all it should take to convict is an accusation then you better hope no one decides to accuse you of a crime that would send the whole world claiming your head belongs on a stick.
Gravetemplar wrote:
That must be it because I can't honestly think why would anyone want victims reliving the worst experience of their lives in front of a bunch of people just so the abuser goes free with just a warning...
Then this would depend on your definition of reliving the worst experience, they are not bothered too much to let it be public knowledge. Where people, who will NEVER know everything there is to know about the case to ensure an accurate deduction, can use it to preach to others about the devastating emotional toll sa takes.

A person who survives something like sa relives the experience often. Visual and auditory triggers. The broaching of the subject, physical reminders, callous dismissals of the situation. However most therapists encourage the survivor to relive the experience from a safe position. As one heals they may conquer their fear of the experience, shattering blocks that fear cements in their mind. Having been part of a great many group therapies for r and sa survivors, the overwhelming outcome is the survivors would rather relive their experience to see justice be served, then to avoid prosecution and let someone they know belongs behind bars walking the streets. It is significant to that healing process for the perp, no matter whom it is, to be brought to justice.

I am going to guess you are neither a survivor of these things or been involved with others who are but your words are antithetical to any healing process I have ever known. Perhaps you should find a community online, there are a great many to choose from, and learn what they feel on the subject.
Curious_dead wrote:
b) it's important to realize that it's unlikely for a woman (or a man!) to make up stories, and even less likely for a cabal of women to gang up to invent similar accusations. Is it at all possible? Yes, but it would be helpful for victims if people stopped assuming that to be the case, or at least, to be likely.
:durr:
Curious_dead wrote:
There just isn't much to gain, and the victims who accuse high profile people tend to attract even more unwanted attention (see Christine Ford, Kavanaugh's accuser; or just AOC, who didn't even name her abuser and is the target of absolutely heinous comments).
What heinous comments?
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Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:00 pm 
 

I love the part where you just made a bunch of stuff and didn't even bother to read what I wrote. I never said anything about convicting anyone in your first two quotes. Read it again.

You also completely missed the point in your last paragraph, what I said is most of the times survivors don't trust the justice to do right by them and it's their decision when and how they are willing to share their painful experiences. Stop telling people to go to trials they may not want to go because they are not in a position to do so. It's their choice when to come forward and go to trial. Relieving an abuse in front of strangers just to see your abuser go free makes no sense. I don't trust the justice system so I don't expect all survivors to do the same either. This is one of the many reasons people don't go to the justice system or it takes them years to do it. How is a jury at a trial a safe position? You just made up a bunch of stuff I never said. What is even your point?

Next time you come and start making baseless assumptions about people consider if you have enough reading comprehension to follow the topic at hand.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1883
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:36 pm 
 

Luvers wrote:
Because people can and do lie. It may not have been your point but the way this reads is you wish society could be dragged back to the 17th century, where a persons words were good enough to warrant conviction. Evidence? Must be too busy for that.
Gravetemplar wrote:
I also don't understand why are some of you so obsessed about this going to trial. Have you asked the victims if that's what they want?

. . .

Justice does not work like that, all whom are accused deserves the right to defend themselves. If you really think that all it should take to convict is an accusation then you better hope no one decides to accuse you of a crime that would send the whole world claiming your head belongs on a stick.


Yep!

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
How does it "destroy lives" to presume the credibility of accusers?


Lets take the #metoo movement as an example. In general it was a great thing. Many bad people got caught with their pants down and were punished for what they had done. That's great! However there were those cases where people were falsely accused where the accusations threatened to ruin their carreers (and life as they new it). I didnt follow the movement internationally but here in Sweden one such example was Lasse Kronér. Accused of sexual harrasment and taking advantage of someone in depency (not sure how to translate the original swedish "sexuellt utnyttjande av person i beroendeställning"). He was freed from all the accusations and has been able to, somewhat, bounce back. But he lost his job, went into a deep depression and got heavily overweight because of the heavy judgment from the tabloids.

So even though most people were probably assholes that got caught (I know for a fact, from someone very close to me, that swedish media profile Martin Timell was always an ass for example. He got punished for it, rightly, during #metoo).

And please don't swing this to make it sound like I defend people doing horrible stuff. I want heavier punishments for sexual criminals (much heavier - Sweden is way soft on people who commit these crimes) but I also want some kind of legal security. I'm not sure how it is elsewhere but in Sweden there is a press ethic not to publish the picture or name of someone who isn't yet judged and sentenced. I think that is mainly a good thing.
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AddWittyUsername
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Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:40 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:40 pm 
 

You know, the people (around the wide web, not necessarily MA in specific) that keep arguing "let the courts decide" and "I won't have an opinion until the courtcase" and "if they're not lying, they'd take it to court" and "why would someone speak out but not report it" might have something at least a little bit closer to a point if we lived in a world where police, courts and general justice system could remotely be trusted to actually judge rape cases appropriately. Sadly, we do not.

If everyone shouting on the web about "courts of public justice" and "but what if she's lying?" and "ruining men's lives" put a fraction of that effort into arguing for reforms of the police&justice system to ensure those reporting rape, sexual assault, sexual abuse and/or sexual harassment are taken seriously by police and to ensure the courts do punish those guilty of it without punishing those innocent, we might actually get somewhere.

Just a thought.

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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 667
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:54 pm 
 

Luvers wrote:
What heinous comments?


Calls for her to be raped again, people saying she's an attention whore, people saying she's lying, etc. I mean, it's sad that it's not even surprising, you can find such comments about any victim of abuse posting about their story online, but when the victim's a lightning rod for right wing nut hate like AOC it's taken to the extreme.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1883
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:55 pm 
 

AddWittyUsername wrote:
You know, the people (around the wide web, not necessarily MA in specific) that keep arguing "let the courts decide" and "I won't have an opinion until the courtcase" and "if they're not lying, they'd take it to court" and "why would someone speak out but not report it" might have something at least a little bit closer to a point if we lived in a world where police, courts and general justice system could remotely be trusted to actually judge rape cases appropriately. Sadly, we do not.

If everyone shouting on the web about "courts of public justice" and "but what if she's lying?" and "ruining men's lives" put a fraction of that effort into arguing for reforms of the police&justice system to ensure those reporting rape, sexual assault, sexual abuse and/or sexual harassment are taken seriously by police and to ensure the courts do punish those guilty of it without punishing those innocent, we might actually get somewhere.

Just a thought.


Yes! This is very true as well. Some countries are better than others but most progress in this field have been quite recent (and we who usually think of ourselves as so modern). Sweden has made progress in that more and more women report sexual abuse (combined with the law including more under the umrella term sexual abuse and rape).
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Luvers
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:34 pm
Posts: 377
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:14 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
I love the part where you just made a bunch of stuff and didn't even bother to read what I wrote. I never said anything about convicting anyone in your first two quotes. Read it again.
I did read it. You are just unable to refute my point and therefore have to backtrack to I did not write that. I did write out a few lines before I decided it was not worth it. I would be happy to engage but do not try the whole I did not write that thing. I responded to your exact points. I did not seek some hidden message or subtext in your lines. I responded to them accordingly. I am sure you can do better than claiming I missed your point when anyone could see I understood them perfectly. So lets see... I spoiled this because this is not a filibuster
Spoiler: show
Quote:
Gravetemplar: Why is it that rape and abuse are the only contexts where people always cry "don't jump to conclusions until a jury has declared him guilty"?
Luvers: Because people can and do lie.
To Elaborate: I figured one would be smart enough to conclude that accusing someone of looting a building does not carry the same stigma as that of a rapist. The reason people do not jump to guilt is because unlike the fantasy world you live in, people lie.
Quote:
Gravetemplar: Don' bother answering, it's a rhetorical question. I already figured out some of you don't care about the victims at all. All you only care abut perpetuating a society in which men can do as they please. At least 5 women and one man have already given you a lot of information about the kind of person Manson is and your only solution is to not believe those affected "until it has been proven by a jury". You're just afraid people can call out your shitty behaviour without your tempered juries to back you up.
Luvers: It may not have been your point but the way this reads is you wish society could be dragged back to the 17th century, where a persons words were good enough to warrant conviction. Evidence? Must be too busy for that.

Quote:
Gravetemplar: I also don't understand why are some of you so obsessed about this going to trial. Have you asked the victims if that's what they want?
Luvers: Justice does not work like that, all whom are accused deserves the right to defend themselves. If you really think that all it should take to convict is an accusation then you better hope no one decides to accuse you of a crime that would send the whole world claiming your head belongs on a stick.
Quote:
Gravetemplar: That must be it because I can't honestly think why would anyone want victims reliving the worst experience of their lives in front of a bunch of people just so the abuser goes free with just a warning.
Luvers: Then this would depend on your definition of reliving the worst experience, they are not bothered too much to let it be public knowledge. Where people, who will NEVER know everything there is to know about the case to ensure an accurate deduction, can use it to preach to others about the devastating emotional toll sa takes.
Gravetemplar wrote:
You also completely missed the point in your last paragraph, what I said is most of the times survivors don't trust the justice to do right by them and it's their decision when and how they are willing to share their painful experiences. Stop telling people to go to trials they may not want to go because they are not in a position to do so. It's their choice when to come forward and go to trial. Relieving an abuse in front of strangers just to see your abuser go free makes no sense. I don't trust the justice system so I don't expect all survivors to do the same either. This is one of the many reasons people don't go to the justice system or it takes them years to do it. How is a jury at a trial a safe position? You just made up a bunch of stuff I never said. What is even your point?
Of which is false. Like my final statement pointed out, you would not make such a assertion unless you were detached from survivor communities. While I will agree that reliving ones plight in front of others for no reason makes no sense, that is not what happens in a trial. This is not really hard:
- You, Gravetempler, will NEVER know more about any judicial case then the jury sitting on it. If the evidence was so overwhelming that you are ready to hang someone before you know an ounce about what really happened then there should be no worry about a jury returning with acquittal. I mean, after all, the case is so open and shut. You come across as already hoping to be the one to put the needle in.
AddWittyUsername wrote:
If everyone shouting on the web about "courts of public justice" and "but what if she's lying?" and "ruining men's lives" put a fraction of that effort into arguing for reforms of the police&justice system to ensure those reporting rape, sexual assault, sexual abuse and/or sexual harassment are taken seriously by police and to ensure the courts do punish those guilty of it without punishing those innocent, we might actually get somewhere.

Just a thought.
Or maybe if those people who want to undermine justice by concluding guilt before a response put a fraction of that effort into arguing for laws for victims of fake sexual assault charges. Again, the world is full of disgusting, hypocritical, double standard having, dishonest, pieces of filth who would piss on your foot and tell you it's raining. Who are you to suggest an assault charge is completely legit?

Just a fact.
Curious_dead wrote:
Luvers wrote:
What heinous comments?
Calls for her to be raped again, people saying she's an attention whore, people saying she's lying, etc. I mean, it's sad that it's not even surprising, you can find such comments about any victim of abuse posting about their story online, but when the victim's a lightning rod for right wing nut hate like AOC it's taken to the extreme.
Those are definitely disgusting and are hurtful dependent on who is saying them.


Even though this should not matter, someone might suggest it but I will clarify that I am not partial to Marilyn Manson at all. He is more than capable of committing these acts and I am not defending him, I believe it is entirely possible as well as probable. His response I believe was something to the effect of the actions being misconstrued (I am paraphrasing here) so he does not even appear to be disputing his actions, just his intent. Manson could be acquitted, found guilty or anything else, I could not care much less about him. I just was discussing the insanity that is jumping immediately on the side of guilt, with the most common reason given that in the past people used to reject assault claims.
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AddWittyUsername
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:40 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:31 pm 
 

Luvers wrote:
AddWittyUsername wrote:
If everyone shouting on the web about "courts of public justice" and "but what if she's lying?" and "ruining men's lives" put a fraction of that effort into arguing for reforms of the police&justice system to ensure those reporting rape, sexual assault, sexual abuse and/or sexual harassment are taken seriously by police and to ensure the courts do punish those guilty of it without punishing those innocent, we might actually get somewhere.

Just a thought.
Or maybe if those people who want to undermine justice by concluding guilt before a response put a fraction of that effort into arguing for laws for victims of fake sexual assault charges. Again, the world is full of disgusting, hypocritical, double standard having, dishonest, pieces of filth who would piss on your foot and tell you it's raining. Who are you to suggest an assault charge is completely legit?

Just a fact.


I literally don't know *anyone* who is arguing "oh yes, people making false accusations is all fine and dandy", mate. If someone knowingly makes a false accusation, that's defamatory. Which, huh, it turns out we already have laws against.

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EldritchSun
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Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:51 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:26 pm 
 

So, Wes Borland came out and said all this shit is true. I didn't know he played on MM's band for a bit less than a year. Manson is fucking done.

https://wrif.com/2021/02/03/wes-borland ... f-ing-guy/

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Subrick
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:10 pm 
 

The thing to notice here is that all the chuds blabbering on social media about how Manson is innocent and Evan Rachel Wood is a gold digging cunt (their words, not mine) shut right the fuck up when Wes spoke about it. Anybody that needs male validation in order to believe a woman, or at least stop shit talking her when she's opening up about being physically and sexually abused, needs to really take a good look in the mirror and reevaluate themselves as a person.
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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:18 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
The thing to notice here is that all the chuds blabbering on social media about how Manson is innocent and Evan Rachel Wood is a gold digging cunt (their words, not mine) shut right the fuck up when Wes spoke about it. Anybody that needs male validation in order to believe a woman, or at least stop shit talking her when she's opening up about being physically and sexually abused, needs to really take a good look in the mirror and reevaluate themselves as a person.

Super agree with this one. With all of these accounts, including Wes himself, there's little to no chance that these accusations are false.
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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:46 pm 
 

I try to be open to some degree about the struggles I've faced in my life, in the hopes that others facing similar struggles will not think they are in the fight alone. That said, I am usually reluctant to engage in the sort of hyperpersonal "trauma porn" that is often expected of victims of trauma who care to speak out. However, after reading some of the responses in this thread, many of which make reference to survivors without, one suspects, much in the way of actual personal experience, I figured just this once I would share my own experience in detail. This is my story, try to learn something from it. Trigger warnings for violent sexual assault and its aftermath.

Spoiler: show
I was the victim of a violent rape when I was a 19 year old college sophomore. At the time, I was just beginning to experiment with my gender identity/presentation, although I didn't really know that's what I was doing (it would actually be several more years before I even heard the word "transgender"). At this point I'm not sure who suggested it (we were both queer women who hadn't figured that out yet, so it could have been either of us, tbh), but my then girlfriend and I attended an off campus Halloween party and we went in costume as a gender swapped Britney Spears/Justin Timberlake combo.

It was a pretty typical college party, booze out the ass and other drugs in copious quantities. I got hammerfuck drunk, and when the time came to leave, I was incapacitated. My girlfriend and another friend we came with simply were not strong enough to get me to the car under the circumstances. For whatever reason, they were unable to get anyone else at the party to assist in getting me home, so I was left on a couch to sleep it off.

Sometime not long before dawn, I woke up, still in a drunken stupor, to find an older classmate on top of me. He had pulled off my underwear and flipped up my skirt, and was trying to press his erection into my mouth. I attempted to push him off me, but I was too drunk. I was too drunk to even raise my hands to defend myself when he began punching me in the face. Since that time, I've been in a few bar fights, and even entered Tough Man contest, but I have never been hit that hard or that cleanly before or since. He broke my jaw and fractured the orbital bone under my right eye (the doc told me I was lucky, had the fracture displaced, I could very easily have been blinded in that eye).

I was in no sense what you might call lucid, but I knew that if I continued to try and resist he would have killed or permanently maimed me, so I did what I think most people would have done; I gave up and stopped fighting. He pushed me face down onto the couch and forced himself into me. At that time in my life, I had never been penetrated. I wasn't ready for it in any way, and he certainly didn't give me the benefit of any sort of lubrication. It was the most excruciatingly painful physical experience of my life. Worse than when I separated my shoulder in a wrestling match in high school. Worse than when I tore ligaments in my knee. Worse than when I fell off a waterfall and had to be carried out of the Graveyard Fields off the Blue Ridge Parkway by friends in my early 20s. All I could do was sit there and take it, while he told me I deserved it for being a cock tease and a faggot. He tore my rectal tissue and left me bleeding for days until I finally went to a doctor. I had to have stitches inside my colon to repair the damage he inflicted. When he was finished, he fell asleep in a chair just across the room, as if completely untroubled in any way by what he had just done to me.

I was still too drunk to leave, so I just lay there, sobbing, my face on fire and bleeding from my ass. I finally stumbled out of the apartment sometime after the sun came up, still in agony, still disoriented from drunkeness. It took me close to an hour to make a walk that normally would have taken less than 10 minutes, stopping to vomit several times along the way. I have no idea what the RA thought when I stumbled in through the entrance to the dorm. I must have been a hell of a sight with my eye swollen shut, mascara streaked down my face and drying vomit and blood soaking my skirt and shirt.

I was too terrified and ashamed to report what had happened for several weeks, but at the urging of my girlfriend, I finally went to the campus cops. They told me that since it happened off campus, I would need to make my report to the city police. They treated me like a freak and a suspected sex worker, and performed a perfunctory interview with my rapist. He told them that we had consensual sex and that I had freaked out and attacked him in the middle of it, and he had hit me only in self defense. He was believed; I wasn't. The police refused to recommend charges and the DA didn't file them. I reported him to the university administration, but they told me there was nothing they could do if he wasn't going to be charged. So that was that.

The experience destroyed my life. It left me with complex PTSD that has horrendously maimed my ability to form normal relationships with other people. For the three semesters until he graduated, I was too scared and ashamed to consistently attend my classes, and I never completed my degree. The experience set back my ability to come to grips with my gender identity for years. I was on the cusp of a breakthrough, but by the time I managed to work through my pain and trauma and come to the truth, I was 38 years old. I still struggle to develop any internalized sense of self-worth. Twenty years on, I still see his face in my mind every single day. The only thing I've ever found that works to blot him from my dreams is heavy marijuana use, which has hampered me at every turn in life. For more than a decade I felt constantly terrified and paralyzed by shame. In furtive and risky encounters, I simply gave my body away to men whose only interest in was the pleasure they could take from my pain. Along the way, I contracted HIV, and now the only thing that stands between me and a slow and agonizing death are drugs that, were I forced to pay out of pocket, would cost nearly $5k/month. I sought out dangerous things so I could somehow feel strong, so I could be a terror instead of being terrorized, which led me down the path to far right politics. In my pain I became a source of pain for others. I will never be what I could have been, never have the life I could have had. He took that from me, and I can never have it back.

I don't want to fucking hear another goddamn word on this site about how lives are "ruined" by false accusations. That is so much horseshit. It is excuse making. It is rape culture, and anyone peddling it ought to be ashamed of themselves. Whatever pain is suffered by the rare victim of false allegations pales in comparison to what victims of rape and sexual assault experience every single day. 1 out of every 4 women in this country will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime. For trans women, that figure is 1 out of every 2. The statistics are horrifying; the reality behind the statistics is almost beyond contemplation.
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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 747
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:01 pm 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I try to be open to some degree about the struggles I've faced in my life, in the hopes that others facing similar struggles will not think they are in the fight alone. That said, I am usually reluctant to engage in the sort of hyperpersonal "trauma porn" that is often expected of victims of trauma who care to speak out. However, after reading some of the responses in this thread, many of which make reference to survivors without, one suspects, much in the way of actual personal experience, I figured just this once I would share my own experience in detail. This is my story, try to learn something from it. Trigger warnings for violent sexual assault and its aftermath.

Spoiler: show
I was the victim of a violent rape when I was a 19 year old college sophomore. At the time, I was just beginning to experiment with my gender identity/presentation, although I didn't really know that's what I was doing (it would actually be several more years before I even heard the word "transgender"). At this point I'm not sure who suggested it (we were both queer women who hadn't figured that out yet, so it could have been either of us, tbh), but my then girlfriend and I attended an off campus Halloween party and we went in costume as a gender swapped Britney Spears/Justin Timberlake combo.

It was a pretty typical college party, booze out the ass and other drugs in copious quantities. I got hammerfuck drunk, and when the time came to leave, I was incapacitated. My girlfriend and another friend we came with simply were not strong enough to get me to the car under the circumstances. For whatever reason, they were unable to get anyone else at the party to assist in getting me home, so I was left on a couch to sleep it off.

Sometime not long before dawn, I woke up, still in a drunken stupor, to find an older classmate on top of me. He had pulled off my underwear and flipped up my skirt, and was trying to press his erection into my mouth. I attempted to push him off me, but I was too drunk. I was too drunk to even raise my hands to defend myself when he began punching me in the face. Since that time, I've been in a few bar fights, and even entered Tough Man contest, but I have never been hit that hard or that cleanly before or since. He broke my jaw and fractured the orbital bone under my right eye (the doc told me I was lucky, had the fracture displaced, I could very easily have been blinded in that eye).

I was in no sense what you might call lucid, but I knew that if I continued to try and resist he would have killed or permanently maimed me, so I did what I think most people would have done; I gave up and stopped fighting. He pushed me face down onto the couch and forced himself into me. At that time in my life, I had never been penetrated. I wasn't ready for it in any way, and he certainly didn't give me the benefit of any sort of lubrication. It was the most excruciatingly painful physical experience of my life. Worse than when I separated my shoulder in a wrestling match in high school. Worse than when I tore ligaments in my knee. Worse than when I fell off a waterfall and had to be carried out of the Graveyard Fields off the Blue Ridge Parkway by friends in my early 20s. All I could do was sit there and take it, while he told me I deserved it for being a cock tease and a faggot. He tore my rectal tissue and left me bleeding for days until I finally went to a doctor. I had to have stitches inside my colon to repair the damage he inflicted. When he was finished, he fell asleep in a chair just across the room, as if completely untroubled in any way by what he had just done to me.

I was still too drunk to leave, so I just lay there, sobbing, my face on fire and bleeding from my ass. I finally stumbled out of the apartment sometime after the sun came up, still in agony, still disoriented from drunkeness. It took me close to an hour to make a walk that normally would have taken less than 10 minutes, stopping to vomit several times along the way. I have no idea what the RA thought when I stumbled in through the entrance to the dorm. I must have been a hell of a sight with my eye swollen shut, mascara streaked down my face and drying vomit and blood soaking my skirt and shirt.

I was too terrified and ashamed to report what had happened for several weeks, but at the urging of my girlfriend, I finally went to the campus cops. They told me that since it happened off campus, I would need to make my report to the city police. They treated me like a freak and a suspected sex worker, and performed a perfunctory interview with my rapist. He told them that we had consensual sex and that I had freaked out and attacked him in the middle of it, and he had hit me only in self defense. He was believed; I wasn't. The police refused to recommend charges and the DA didn't file them. I reported him to the university administration, but they told me there was nothing they could do if he wasn't going to be charged. So that was that.

The experience destroyed my life. It left me with complex PTSD that has horrendously maimed my ability to form normal relationships with other people. For the three semesters until he graduated, I was too scared and ashamed to consistently attend my classes, and I never completed my degree. The experience set back my ability to come to grips with my gender identity for years. I was on the cusp of a breakthrough, but by the time I managed to work through my pain and trauma and come to the truth, I was 38 years old. I still struggle to develop any internalized sense of self-worth. Twenty years on, I still see his face in my mind every single day. The only thing I've ever found that works to blot him from my dreams is heavy marijuana use, which has hampered me at every turn in life. For more than a decade I felt constantly terrified and paralyzed by shame. In furtive and risky encounters, I simply gave my body away to men whose only interest in was the pleasure they could take from my pain. Along the way, I contracted HIV, and now the only thing that stands between me and a slow and agonizing death are drugs that, were I forced to pay out of pocket, would cost nearly $5k/month. I sought out dangerous things so I could somehow feel strong, so I could be a terror instead of being terrorized, which led me down the path to far right politics. In my pain I became a source of pain for others. I will never be what I could have been, never have the life I could have had. He took that from me, and I can never have it back.

I don't want to fucking hear another goddamn word on this site about how lives are "ruined" by false accusations. That is so much horseshit. It is excuse making. It is rape culture, and anyone peddling it ought to be ashamed of themselves. Whatever pain is suffered by the rare victim of false allegations pales in comparison to what victims of rape and sexual assault experience every single day. 1 out of every 4 women in this country will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime. For trans women, that figure is 1 out of every 2. The statistics are horrifying; the reality behind the statistics is almost beyond contemplation.

Damn... to hear one user here describe a tragic event they've experienced is heartbreaking... :( :cry:

I hope Sedition and Pockets's is a wake up call for the people who attack the victims. No one should ever experience something like that.
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Subrick
Metal Strongman

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:55 pm 
 

Someone should show this to the guys in the FFA sucking each others’ dicks about how Michael Jackson was falsely accused.
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 608
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:00 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I try to be open to some degree about the struggles I've faced in my life, in the hopes that others facing similar struggles will not think they are in the fight alone. That said, I am usually reluctant to engage in the sort of hyperpersonal "trauma porn" that is often expected of victims of trauma who care to speak out. However, after reading some of the responses in this thread, many of which make reference to survivors without, one suspects, much in the way of actual personal experience, I figured just this once I would share my own experience in detail. This is my story, try to learn something from it. Trigger warnings for violent sexual assault and its aftermath.

Spoiler: show
I was the victim of a violent rape when I was a 19 year old college sophomore. At the time, I was just beginning to experiment with my gender identity/presentation, although I didn't really know that's what I was doing (it would actually be several more years before I even heard the word "transgender"). At this point I'm not sure who suggested it (we were both queer women who hadn't figured that out yet, so it could have been either of us, tbh), but my then girlfriend and I attended an off campus Halloween party and we went in costume as a gender swapped Britney Spears/Justin Timberlake combo.

It was a pretty typical college party, booze out the ass and other drugs in copious quantities. I got hammerfuck drunk, and when the time came to leave, I was incapacitated. My girlfriend and another friend we came with simply were not strong enough to get me to the car under the circumstances. For whatever reason, they were unable to get anyone else at the party to assist in getting me home, so I was left on a couch to sleep it off.

Sometime not long before dawn, I woke up, still in a drunken stupor, to find an older classmate on top of me. He had pulled off my underwear and flipped up my skirt, and was trying to press his erection into my mouth. I attempted to push him off me, but I was too drunk. I was too drunk to even raise my hands to defend myself when he began punching me in the face. Since that time, I've been in a few bar fights, and even entered Tough Man contest, but I have never been hit that hard or that cleanly before or since. He broke my jaw and fractured the orbital bone under my right eye (the doc told me I was lucky, had the fracture displaced, I could very easily have been blinded in that eye).

I was in no sense what you might call lucid, but I knew that if I continued to try and resist he would have killed or permanently maimed me, so I did what I think most people would have done; I gave up and stopped fighting. He pushed me face down onto the couch and forced himself into me. At that time in my life, I had never been penetrated. I wasn't ready for it in any way, and he certainly didn't give me the benefit of any sort of lubrication. It was the most excruciatingly painful physical experience of my life. Worse than when I separated my shoulder in a wrestling match in high school. Worse than when I tore ligaments in my knee. Worse than when I fell off a waterfall and had to be carried out of the Graveyard Fields off the Blue Ridge Parkway by friends in my early 20s. All I could do was sit there and take it, while he told me I deserved it for being a cock tease and a faggot. He tore my rectal tissue and left me bleeding for days until I finally went to a doctor. I had to have stitches inside my colon to repair the damage he inflicted. When he was finished, he fell asleep in a chair just across the room, as if completely untroubled in any way by what he had just done to me.

I was still too drunk to leave, so I just lay there, sobbing, my face on fire and bleeding from my ass. I finally stumbled out of the apartment sometime after the sun came up, still in agony, still disoriented from drunkeness. It took me close to an hour to make a walk that normally would have taken less than 10 minutes, stopping to vomit several times along the way. I have no idea what the RA thought when I stumbled in through the entrance to the dorm. I must have been a hell of a sight with my eye swollen shut, mascara streaked down my face and drying vomit and blood soaking my skirt and shirt.

I was too terrified and ashamed to report what had happened for several weeks, but at the urging of my girlfriend, I finally went to the campus cops. They told me that since it happened off campus, I would need to make my report to the city police. They treated me like a freak and a suspected sex worker, and performed a perfunctory interview with my rapist. He told them that we had consensual sex and that I had freaked out and attacked him in the middle of it, and he had hit me only in self defense. He was believed; I wasn't. The police refused to recommend charges and the DA didn't file them. I reported him to the university administration, but they told me there was nothing they could do if he wasn't going to be charged. So that was that.

The experience destroyed my life. It left me with complex PTSD that has horrendously maimed my ability to form normal relationships with other people. For the three semesters until he graduated, I was too scared and ashamed to consistently attend my classes, and I never completed my degree. The experience set back my ability to come to grips with my gender identity for years. I was on the cusp of a breakthrough, but by the time I managed to work through my pain and trauma and come to the truth, I was 38 years old. I still struggle to develop any internalized sense of self-worth. Twenty years on, I still see his face in my mind every single day. The only thing I've ever found that works to blot him from my dreams is heavy marijuana use, which has hampered me at every turn in life. For more than a decade I felt constantly terrified and paralyzed by shame. In furtive and risky encounters, I simply gave my body away to men whose only interest in was the pleasure they could take from my pain. Along the way, I contracted HIV, and now the only thing that stands between me and a slow and agonizing death are drugs that, were I forced to pay out of pocket, would cost nearly $5k/month. I sought out dangerous things so I could somehow feel strong, so I could be a terror instead of being terrorized, which led me down the path to far right politics. In my pain I became a source of pain for others. I will never be what I could have been, never have the life I could have had. He took that from me, and I can never have it back.

I don't want to fucking hear another goddamn word on this site about how lives are "ruined" by false accusations. That is so much horseshit. It is excuse making. It is rape culture, and anyone peddling it ought to be ashamed of themselves. Whatever pain is suffered by the rare victim of false allegations pales in comparison to what victims of rape and sexual assault experience every single day. 1 out of every 4 women in this country will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime. For trans women, that figure is 1 out of every 2. The statistics are horrifying; the reality behind the statistics is almost beyond contemplation.

Holy crap, what an awful story. All I can say is: I have no idea what it must be like to suffer so much pain as that, and I might never know. But it is horrible that this happened to you, and that you still feel the effects from it to this day. Horrible beyond imagining. All I can do is say I'm sorry.
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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 1017
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:18 am 
 

Burn Manson, burn.
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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 747
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:28 am 
 

CoconutBackwards wrote:
Burn Manson, burn.

Don't forget the song to accompany it!

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Wahn_nhaW
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:46 am 
 

Some truly hideous shit coming out about this guy.

I loved Antichrist Superstar when it came out, but come on.

It seems he started to believe his own bullshit at some point and let the character consume the human being beneath. That is, if there ever was one.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:35 am 
 

Jesus fucking christ :(
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~Guest 82538
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:36 am 
 

Sedition and Pockets wrote:
I try to be open to some degree about the struggles I've faced in my life, in the hopes that others facing similar struggles will not think they are in the fight alone. That said, I am usually reluctant to engage in the sort of hyperpersonal "trauma porn" that is often expected of victims of trauma who care to speak out. However, after reading some of the responses in this thread, many of which make reference to survivors without, one suspects, much in the way of actual personal experience, I figured just this once I would share my own experience in detail. This is my story, try to learn something from it. Trigger warnings for violent sexual assault and its aftermath.

Spoiler: show
I was the victim of a violent rape when I was a 19 year old college sophomore. At the time, I was just beginning to experiment with my gender identity/presentation, although I didn't really know that's what I was doing (it would actually be several more years before I even heard the word "transgender"). At this point I'm not sure who suggested it (we were both queer women who hadn't figured that out yet, so it could have been either of us, tbh), but my then girlfriend and I attended an off campus Halloween party and we went in costume as a gender swapped Britney Spears/Justin Timberlake combo.

It was a pretty typical college party, booze out the ass and other drugs in copious quantities. I got hammerfuck drunk, and when the time came to leave, I was incapacitated. My girlfriend and another friend we came with simply were not strong enough to get me to the car under the circumstances. For whatever reason, they were unable to get anyone else at the party to assist in getting me home, so I was left on a couch to sleep it off.

Sometime not long before dawn, I woke up, still in a drunken stupor, to find an older classmate on top of me. He had pulled off my underwear and flipped up my skirt, and was trying to press his erection into my mouth. I attempted to push him off me, but I was too drunk. I was too drunk to even raise my hands to defend myself when he began punching me in the face. Since that time, I've been in a few bar fights, and even entered Tough Man contest, but I have never been hit that hard or that cleanly before or since. He broke my jaw and fractured the orbital bone under my right eye (the doc told me I was lucky, had the fracture displaced, I could very easily have been blinded in that eye).

I was in no sense what you might call lucid, but I knew that if I continued to try and resist he would have killed or permanently maimed me, so I did what I think most people would have done; I gave up and stopped fighting. He pushed me face down onto the couch and forced himself into me. At that time in my life, I had never been penetrated. I wasn't ready for it in any way, and he certainly didn't give me the benefit of any sort of lubrication. It was the most excruciatingly painful physical experience of my life. Worse than when I separated my shoulder in a wrestling match in high school. Worse than when I tore ligaments in my knee. Worse than when I fell off a waterfall and had to be carried out of the Graveyard Fields off the Blue Ridge Parkway by friends in my early 20s. All I could do was sit there and take it, while he told me I deserved it for being a cock tease and a faggot. He tore my rectal tissue and left me bleeding for days until I finally went to a doctor. I had to have stitches inside my colon to repair the damage he inflicted. When he was finished, he fell asleep in a chair just across the room, as if completely untroubled in any way by what he had just done to me.

I was still too drunk to leave, so I just lay there, sobbing, my face on fire and bleeding from my ass. I finally stumbled out of the apartment sometime after the sun came up, still in agony, still disoriented from drunkeness. It took me close to an hour to make a walk that normally would have taken less than 10 minutes, stopping to vomit several times along the way. I have no idea what the RA thought when I stumbled in through the entrance to the dorm. I must have been a hell of a sight with my eye swollen shut, mascara streaked down my face and drying vomit and blood soaking my skirt and shirt.

I was too terrified and ashamed to report what had happened for several weeks, but at the urging of my girlfriend, I finally went to the campus cops. They told me that since it happened off campus, I would need to make my report to the city police. They treated me like a freak and a suspected sex worker, and performed a perfunctory interview with my rapist. He told them that we had consensual sex and that I had freaked out and attacked him in the middle of it, and he had hit me only in self defense. He was believed; I wasn't. The police refused to recommend charges and the DA didn't file them. I reported him to the university administration, but they told me there was nothing they could do if he wasn't going to be charged. So that was that.

The experience destroyed my life. It left me with complex PTSD that has horrendously maimed my ability to form normal relationships with other people. For the three semesters until he graduated, I was too scared and ashamed to consistently attend my classes, and I never completed my degree. The experience set back my ability to come to grips with my gender identity for years. I was on the cusp of a breakthrough, but by the time I managed to work through my pain and trauma and come to the truth, I was 38 years old. I still struggle to develop any internalized sense of self-worth. Twenty years on, I still see his face in my mind every single day. The only thing I've ever found that works to blot him from my dreams is heavy marijuana use, which has hampered me at every turn in life. For more than a decade I felt constantly terrified and paralyzed by shame. In furtive and risky encounters, I simply gave my body away to men whose only interest in was the pleasure they could take from my pain. Along the way, I contracted HIV, and now the only thing that stands between me and a slow and agonizing death are drugs that, were I forced to pay out of pocket, would cost nearly $5k/month. I sought out dangerous things so I could somehow feel strong, so I could be a terror instead of being terrorized, which led me down the path to far right politics. In my pain I became a source of pain for others. I will never be what I could have been, never have the life I could have had. He took that from me, and I can never have it back.

I don't want to fucking hear another goddamn word on this site about how lives are "ruined" by false accusations. That is so much horseshit. It is excuse making. It is rape culture, and anyone peddling it ought to be ashamed of themselves. Whatever pain is suffered by the rare victim of false allegations pales in comparison to what victims of rape and sexual assault experience every single day. 1 out of every 4 women in this country will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime. For trans women, that figure is 1 out of every 2. The statistics are horrifying; the reality behind the statistics is almost beyond contemplation.


Thank you for having the courage to share your experience, and believe me when I say that I feel very sorry that you, or any other human being for that matter, would have to go through such a horrible experience. I'm of the opinion that our experiences, be they good or bad, mould our personality and our way of being, so I'm pretty sure that your post here will make many users realize the context from which you can be so vigorous about standing up for some arguments. I myself feel included in that category. I always felt that you'd be very energetic about some subjects, guess now I know why and I can better understand why you do it. Context is very important I guess. Hang in there, and if there's any helping word that I can give you it'd be to try to live your life with as little anger as you can, or at least channel it into something positive. But my guess is that that's what you're already doing. ;)

Speaking about the Manson case from my personal view now. His music has been a part of my life for more than 20 years, even if those CDs sitting on the shelves date as far back as 1994-98. Being a small town guy from the middle of nowhere where the best day of the month would be when me and my friends would take a bus ride to catch a movie at the cinema and a burger at McDonald's, Manson's music was a breath of rebellion against the world that surrounded me. And you know, those albums have been stuck with me for all these years, even if I don't live my life as angry and resented as I did in the past. My experiences also moulded me, and I guess I have fate to thank for for putting me on the path I am right now. I've been through some difficulties in my life, but if I hadn't I wouldn't have found the love of my life and I'd still be an angry bitter and most of the time obnoxious person. And somehow his music is still something I can appreciate after all theses changes. I never did care for him as a person, as much as I haven't cared about the deification of any musician since I was fortunate enough to experience part of the music industry from an inner perspective. Musicians are people like you and me, like all of us. They're "just" extremely skilled in an art form, so we tend to view them as more than mere people. But they're not. So yeah, there are good and bad people everywhere so that's why I tend to "separate the art from the artist", or be a "but the riffz" person when I post in these boards. I understand how that perspective can be damaging to the perception people have of me here, and that's why I generally avoid posting in these discussions. I don't want to have to defend myself without people knowing my context, and I'm probably not brave enough to put it out for all the world to see.

Brian Warner, the person, has always been a weird guy who is probably too deep into his own artistic character. Or maybe the artistic character he created is just an extension of what he has always been. Brian Warner, the person, I couldn't care less and if things are as they're being said then he deserves all that he's getting because you just don't treat people like shit. You can fantasise about it, you can long for it, but you just don't fucking do it! So I guess that Brian Warner, the person, is getting what he deserves. I still hate social media judgement though, and I'll always will. I guess that what some posters have been trying to say here about character assassination when alleged accusations arise has more to do with context than with this particular case. Living in Europe and living in the US is very different and the social context is also very different. We're still very bigoted and racist and all that here in Portugal, but nowadays mostly everyone can find his/her spot under the sun without being burnt. When LBGT couples are assaulted in broad day light there's a social reaction to it that makes victims feel like they aren't alone and that the voices saying "you fucking deserved it for being a deviant" aren't the only ones shouting. So yeah, I guess that living in a country where there's a bigger equality in terms of tolerance vs intolerance makes me have a different context from someone from a country that's as polarising as the US. My point being that this is a Forum where people from all around the world tend to post. Different folks different contexts, so it wouldn't be too much to ask for sometimes people stopping a minute and thinking that a different view is different because of the social and personal context of a poster from another part of the world.

Anyway, I feel like I've probably deviated a bit here and I may regret being as frontal as I am being, but I guess I felt like saying something this time. Abusers should be burnt to the ground and victims should be respected, no other way to see it. But I still hate public character assassination on the social media, and that won't ever change for me. And if those Manson albums have been with me for so long I guess they're not going anywhere, even if/when Brian Warner gets its due.

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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:40 am 
 

A thread about horrific sexual assault

A victim comes forward with her own incredibly traumatic and personal experience of rape

(Dudes on the Internet): "How can I make this thread about ME?"
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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~Guest 82538
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:45 am 
 

Was that directed at me?

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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:54 am 
 

Also.

Why is the fucking concern trolling over false allegations and how they "ruin lives" always coming up even in cases where there is massive corroboration from witnesses and multiple accusers?

And why is there always so much more attention to that, instead of focusing on how rape and sexual assault ruin victims' lives?

(Those are rhetorical questions, by the way. I know why. )

androdion wrote:
Was that directed at me?

Yes it was, you insufferable, condescending clown.
_________________
Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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~Guest 82538
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:14 pm 
 

I don't even know what to answer to you Morrigan. It just saddens me that you have that opinion on me.

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henkkjelle
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:36 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Also.

Why is the fucking concern trolling over false allegations and how they "ruin lives" always coming up even in cases where there is massive corroboration from witnesses and multiple accusers?


Yeah this is what is most perplexing to me reading this thread. I can at least understand wanting to be hesitant assuming guilt in a situation concerning only two people - but also then it's super unhelpful and damaging to make that the main point of conversation so don't do it, but in Manson's case we have five accusers and corroborations to support them. If you're still harping on about the possiblity of false allegations because "muh balanced opinion", you're not thinking critically at all. You're just a slave to a dogmatic need to be impartial even when all the signs are pointing one way.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:02 pm 
 

androdion wrote:
I don't even know what to answer to you Morrigan. It just saddens me that you have that opinion on me.

...You're doing it again.

Fake edit: ok, I'm going, in good faith, to make one, one attempt, at explaining why your post is so fucked up and so goddamn tone-deaf. See, it looks so well-meaning and nice in tone, with the platitudes about "yeah of course I support victims" but... and that's the thing, there's always a "but", isn't it. Even as a reply to a very personal, detailed sharing of a horrific story, you people still have to couch your already limited and clearly stunted empathy with a "but" and talk down to people. Maybe ask yourself why that is.

And if you truly don't understand what I mean, well, there are numerous ways in which your post was condescending.

First, you basically open your post by trying to find some "positive" consequence for Sedition's rape (about how it "moulded" her and made her "vigorous" or whatever, directly contradicting what she said btw, since she said it took years for her to even partially recover), which is absolutely not your place to do.

Then, you immediately pivoted to making it about you and how you live your life which is eyeroll-worthy at the very least.

And then, then, you actually had the fucking nerve to lecture her about how she should maybe be less angry and more positive. Like, my dude, fucking WHAT. How, how, how do you fail to see how utterly tone-deaf and condescending this is? A woman tells you of a horrific violent rape that destroyed her life, how the justice system failed her, and you tell her "try to be less angry"? Like, my dude are you fucking for real here?

A woman tells a story of how she was brutalized and oppressed and you tell her to be less angry? No, she should not be fucking less angry. I won't tell her exactly how angry she "should" be, because that's for her alone to decide (not all victims respond to their trauma in the same way or find peace in the same ways, if they ever do, and no one should tell a victim how they should feel about their assault), but if she wants to angry, furious even, at the injustice she received, then you don't fucking get to tell her otherwise.

Men telling women to not be so angry all the time is already sexist garbage, though fairly typical I suppose. It's what most women have had to put up at various points in their lives (oh, I'm sure it's "for her own good" right?). It's like when white people tell black people they shouldn't be so angry at the oppression they receive. How dare you go loot a Target, white people say. Meanwhile black people's bodies and dignity have been looted for centuries, but let's not talk about that too much because it hurts white people's feelings, hmm? Women have been oppressed and subjugated for aeons, hell it's only since a few decades that marital rape is even illegal (not even everywhere), women speaking out about their sexual abuse still get death threats and are raked through the coals while their abusers get hordes of defenders and white knights ready to protect their ego and clutch at their pearls about how "damaging" #metoo is, and most abusers still never get held accountable. But please, tell us again how we shouldn't be angry and be more positive. Particularly comical to see this on a metal forum. You'd think we're posting on a Christian forum instead, I swear.

Men telling women to be less angry about their oppression, especially concerning a traumatic rape they related in horrific detail, is such peak condescension, it's flat-out misogyny. It's amazing you can't see how insulting that is. But oh no, I hurt your feelings pointing this out, didn't I? Whatever, I don't give a fuck honestly. (Don't worry, I am sure some well-meaning dudebro will jump at your defense and lament at how rude I am and how we can't ever be civil blah blah blah. )

And of course, you then spent long paragraphs telling us how much that rapist singer meant to you, then went on a bizarre tangent about how progressive Portugal is (like anyone cares about enlightened Europeans who look down on how much more progressive they are than the US right now, seriously, what is it with smug Euros who never miss a chance to get their licks in about that even when it's off-topic? piss off), and of course made sure to tut-tut about social media "character assassinations" like Manson is the real victim here, with, of course, one last reminder to everyone how much that rapist's music meant to you and how you will continue to love his art. So there's all of that shit too and I ain't giving it a pass. But I wanted to focus on the "don't be so angry" part specifically because it's so goddamn tiresome above everything else.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Sedition and Pockets
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:29 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:11 pm 
 

Thank you, Morri.
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